Does anyone else but me think it strange that Southeast Region has come up with some crazy numbering systems for all their staff positions? Take a look here:http://sercap.us/ (http://sercap.us/) and http://sercap.us/html/organization.html (http://sercap.us/html/organization.html). Then again, some Wings have come up with all sorts of weird organizational structures that also don't comply with CAP regulations.
Since Regions basically don't really do anything, I'm not sure there is anywhere near as much "need" for consolidating positions like this.
They are using the standard USAF terminology for offices at the Numbered Air Force level and above. It has moved over from the Army where even at the lower levels the branches are numbered.
1 = Personnel
2 = Intelligence
3 = Operations
4 = Logistics
5 = Plans
6 = Communications
The letter in front of the number indicates the Command level - with a lot of overlap. JCS/J3 is the Ops chief at the Joint Staff. USCENTCOM/J3 would be the ops chief at Central Command. The USARCENT/G3 would be the ops chief at the Army Component of USCENTCOM. USAFCENT/A3 would be the ops cheif at Ninth Air Force (USAFCENT). The ops chief at the naval component would be the N3, etc.
Organizationally, CAP region is about equal to a Numbered Air Force, but with a lower grade for the commander.
Short Field, I understand before the / and the number, and I think you just explained this, but can you re-explain what the letter before the number stands for?
I don't know why, it is not sticking in my head.
I'll leave the 'splainin' but as I recall, we were ordered to start using standard office symbols some time back.
Most wings organized, but haven't really pushed the use of the nomenclature.
I have to give SER credit for having such a complete staff, and taking the time to put together the structure.
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J = Joint
A = air component
G = ground component
N = naval component
Fixed...
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
In addition, the Army has "S" staff at the battalion (O-5 command) and Brigade (O-6 Command) levels. "G" staffs work for a general officer (commanding general).
There can also be "C" staffs, for combined. A combined staff is for a multinational force
Okay, so I'm glad this wasn't some oddball concoction dreamed up by SE Region (a lot of unusual stuff comes from there >:D ).
QuoteI'll leave the 'splainin' but as I recall, we were ordered to start using standard office symbols some time back.
Most wings organized, but haven't really pushed the use of the nomenclature.
Never seen an order to do any such thing and there is no Interim Change Letter modifying either CAP's standard office symbols or the proper structure for Regions. So, it does seem as if SE Region decided on their own to try to follow the AF.
It was discussed in a National board meeting in early 2006.
This is from my notes from a Group CC's call subsequent to that, so this was briefed to us by our Wing CC:
USAF is changing office symbols to match the Joint Services
A1 DP Personnel
A2 IN Intelligence
A3 XOO Operations
A4 LG Logistics
A5 XOX Plans
A6 DC Communications
But you're right, I have not seen any ICL's, etc., that I can find.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 01, 2007, 09:01:41 PM
Does anyone else but me think it strange that Southeast Region has come up with some crazy numbering systems for all their staff positions? Take a look here:http://sercap.us/ (http://sercap.us/) and http://sercap.us/html/organization.html (http://sercap.us/html/organization.html). Then again, some Wings have come up with all sorts of weird organizational structures that also don't comply with CAP regulations.
Since Regions basically don't really do anything, I'm not sure there is anywhere near as much "need" for consolidating positions like this.
Thats not a crazy numbering systme. The USAF copied it off the Army which has been using that system for years. In my Army Battalion I am the Asst. S-3 (Ops) With all these unifed commands the USAF finally is getting on board with the system. And I guess the CAP folks at SER decided to follow suit.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
No. In the army, we have an S1 (Admin), S2 (Intel), S3 (OPS), S4 (Logistics), S6(Signal) SOme units have an S5(Civil Affairs)
When you go to Brigade or higher level the S is replaced with G. At joint commands They have a J (guess what that stands for?)
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
No. In the army, we have an S1 (Admin), S2 (Intel), S3 (OPS), S4 (Logistics), S6(Signal) SOme units have an S5(Civil Affairs)
When you go to Brigade or higher level the S is replaced with G. At joint commands They have a J (guess what that stands for?)
Army has two levels. S (staff) is for brigade (non-separate) and below. G (general staff) is for separate brigades and above. Rule of thumb - if it is commanded by a general officer, then it has a "G" staff.
When the Air Force was still part of the Army, it had a separate "A" staff (thus the term it has to this date - "Air Staff"). If you watch the movie "12 O'Clock High", when Brig Gen Savage walks into his office, you'll notice that it says Assistant Chief of Staff A-3. It's nothing new - the Air Force is just rediscovering its roots.
Gunner
Quote from: Gunner C on December 02, 2007, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
No. In the army, we have an S1 (Admin), S2 (Intel), S3 (OPS), S4 (Logistics), S6(Signal) SOme units have an S5(Civil Affairs)
When you go to Brigade or higher level the S is replaced with G. At joint commands They have a J (guess what that stands for?)
Army has two levels. S (staff) is for brigade (non-separate) and below. G (general staff) is for separate brigades and above. Rule of thumb - if it is commanded by a general officer, then it has a "G" staff.
When the Air Force was still part of the Army, it had a separate "A" staff (thus the term it has to this date - "Air Staff"). If you watch the movie "12 O'Clock High", when Brig Gen Savage walks into his office, you'll notice that it says Assistant Chief of Staff A-3. It's nothing new - the Air Force is just rediscovering its roots.
Gunner
I agree and dont mean to nitpick (because I hate it when others do it) but my National Guard Brigade was commanded by a one star and we had an S-staff
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 03:41:26 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on December 02, 2007, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
No. In the army, we have an S1 (Admin), S2 (Intel), S3 (OPS), S4 (Logistics), S6(Signal) SOme units have an S5(Civil Affairs)
When you go to Brigade or higher level the S is replaced with G. At joint commands They have a J (guess what that stands for?)
Army has two levels. S (staff) is for brigade (non-separate) and below. G (general staff) is for separate brigades and above. Rule of thumb - if it is commanded by a general officer, then it has a "G" staff.
When the Air Force was still part of the Army, it had a separate "A" staff (thus the term it has to this date - "Air Staff"). If you watch the movie "12 O'Clock High", when Brig Gen Savage walks into his office, you'll notice that it says Assistant Chief of Staff A-3. It's nothing new - the Air Force is just rediscovering its roots.
Gunner
I agree and dont mean to nitpick (because I hate it when others do it) but my National Guard Brigade was commanded by a one star and we had an S-staff
That's really odd.
I'm curious as to why.
Was your BDE a separate brigade? Did the Brigade commander also have a state duty like asst. AG that would call for the higher rank? Did the TO&E of the BDE authorize a BG or an O-6?
To muddy the water a bit; additional sections may be added at the discretion of the commander and additional designators may be added to each section. (army)
Example: I am in state HQ and I am J-7 Air Command Section (O-6) with a designator 107/01 then there's an Air Operations Branch below that and the Ops. officer is 107A/01 (O-5). The staff numbers follow suit, ie: my assistant is 107/02 and Air Ops. number 2 (actually a civil engineer) is 107A/02. Everyone in every section and branch has a number designator that corresponds to their job.
Regards,
Ken
Quote from: KFreeman on December 02, 2007, 05:30:31 PM
To muddy the water a bit; additional sections may be added at the discretion of the commander and additional designators may be added to each section. (army)
Example: I am in state HQ and I am J-7 Air Command Section (O-6) with a designator 107/01 then there's an Air Operations Branch below that and the Ops. officer is 107A/01 (O-5). The staff numbers follow suit, ie: my assistant is 107/02 and Air Ops. number 2 (actually a civil engineer) is 107A/02. Everyone in every section and branch has a number designator that corresponds to their job.
Regards,
Ken
Yee gads! All those numbers and I have troubles balancing my check book.
Why would we need this? Many CAP units aren't even close to having half a staff, much less the need for this sort of system.
Staffing is a real need in many CAP Units, however, having this sort of code system seems to be to be a bit moot.
That's only an opinion, but I don't see a need to do that.
As far as I can tell it just adds unnecessarily complexness for the sake of "Air Forciness". If CAP units at any level actually had much contact with the Air Force or other branches of the military, perhaps it might make sense to align our staff positions in a similar manner. Since this isn't the case and unfortunately will probably not be the case any time soon, I don't think it serves much purpose.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 02, 2007, 02:34:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 03:41:26 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on December 02, 2007, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 02, 2007, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
J=Joint
A=Air force
G=Army
N=Navy
So...A1 is Air Force Personnel officer, J6 is joint communications, N2 is Navy Intelligence.
No. In the army, we have an S1 (Admin), S2 (Intel), S3 (OPS), S4 (Logistics), S6(Signal) SOme units have an S5(Civil Affairs)
When you go to Brigade or higher level the S is replaced with G. At joint commands They have a J (guess what that stands for?)
Army has two levels. S (staff) is for brigade (non-separate) and below. G (general staff) is for separate brigades and above. Rule of thumb - if it is commanded by a general officer, then it has a "G" staff.
When the Air Force was still part of the Army, it had a separate "A" staff (thus the term it has to this date - "Air Staff"). If you watch the movie "12 O'Clock High", when Brig Gen Savage walks into his office, you'll notice that it says Assistant Chief of Staff A-3. It's nothing new - the Air Force is just rediscovering its roots.
Gunner
I agree and dont mean to nitpick (because I hate it when others do it) but my National Guard Brigade was commanded by a one star and we had an S-staff
That's really odd.
I'm curious as to why.
Was your BDE a separate brigade? Did the Brigade commander also have a state duty like asst. AG that would call for the higher rank? Did the TO&E of the BDE authorize a BG or an O-6?
Nope, he was an M-day soldier (that means a one weekend amonther like me) The reeason is because we are (or were, I am no longer inthat unit) an enhancved seperate brigade. menaing we have our own Artillary, Forward Support battalion, Armor batt., signal company. we are in essence a miniture Division. The unit recently went under reproganizarion into a Light Infantry Unit of Action(thats the new term the Army is going to nowadays) So now they have a COL as the Commander
That's really odd.
I'm curious as to why.
Was your BDE a separate brigade? Did the Brigade commander also have a state duty like asst. AG that would call for the higher rank? Did the TO&E of the BDE authorize a BG or an O-6?[/quote]
Its not as odd as you think. many National Guard Enhanced Brigades are structured like this. MS has one. NC and SC have one. Check it out on the internet
Tags - MIKE
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 02, 2007, 06:19:35 PM
Why would we need this? Many CAP units aren't even close to having half a staff, much less the need for this sort of system.
Staffing is a real need in many CAP Units, however, having this sort of code system seems to be to be a bit moot.
That's only an opinion, but I don't see a need to do that.
I dont think its something that would done at the Squadron Level. Probably needs to be down at the Wing level and above. Youare right. Squadron level doesnt need to be organized this way.