Just curious, how many SM's here wear the service dress cap? In my area, it seems its more of a cadet thing.
Minor capitalization topic title - MIKE
I try to avoid. I only use it for funerals when I play taps.
I know one that does....(Sparky!). I personally wish to wear one but the flight cap was much cheaper for me at the time. One day soon I hope! (Anyone with a size 7 or so for donation.....LOL)
You must have missed all those threads were we made fun of service caps. The 1940s have come and gone.
No, you should see the hat I have to wear when I wear a uniform at work. Personally I think that the service cap looks good, if worn with a sharp uniform. I personally am not that big of a fan of the flight cap, unless it's worn with a flight suit, or during informal situations
Quote from: MIKE on November 24, 2007, 02:40:00 AM
You must have missed all those threads were we made fun of service caps. The 1940s have come and gone.
Thats too bad, I liked the 1940's. Lets do it again.
I wear (wore) it almost all the time. It looks much more professional, and since the majority of my
time is spent on a Navy base, fits right in with the gang - the chiefs, RDC, and of course the officers all wear them up here.
Unfortunately the I can no longer wear the one I have because it has a plain bill, and haven't ordered the new one.
Most of the members up my way in positions of command prefer the wheel cap.
Don't think I've ever seen anyone in CAP wear one. My CG Aux buddies wear their version all the time, but I don't think they have a flight-cap type option. I'm not going to spend the money to buy one. How much are they running for now anyway?
Quote from: RiverAux on November 24, 2007, 02:59:42 AM
Don't think I've ever seen anyone in CAP wear one. My CG Aux buddies wear their version all the time, but I don't think they have a flight-cap type option. I'm not going to spend the money to buy one. How much are they running for now anyway?
I bought the one I wore for 4 years at the local surplus store, looking brand new, for $15.
New with F&D's runs about $65.
Is this right?
(http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/a2/6a/f1bb_1.JPG)
http://tinyurl.com/394s5k
The ebay description says its for a USAF 4-star chief of staff. Looks like a mistake to me.
I know the F&D's are for field grade or above, but was unaware there were more for generals.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 24, 2007, 02:59:42 AMMy CG Aux buddies wear their version all the time, but I don't think they have a flight-cap type option. I'm not going to spend the money to buy one. How much are they running for now anyway?
There is a garrison cap... which I wear, but there are some uniform combos that require the combination cap. Dinner dress etc.
As far as the service cap pis above... Seen pocs of them being worn before Lemay etc. I think it is an AF CoS thing, but I didn't see any specifics in AFI 36-2903... but that doesn't mean it's not authorized.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 24, 2007, 03:05:52 AM
The ebay description says its for a USAF 4-star chief of staff. Looks like a mistake to me.
I know the F&D's are for field grade or above, but was unaware there were more for generals.
The general grades have additional F&D. AFI 36-2903 doesn't have anything about them on the hat band or anything special for Chief of Staff, but generals are permitted some latitude with uniforms. Some like additional bling, others wear the same thing everyone else does.
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/050902-F-3050V-233.jpg)
Here it is in action.
(http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/das-watkins-funeral02.jpg)
I wear the service cap when I wear the service coat because I think that the flight cap just looks a little goofy with the jacket. Likewise, I never wear the service cap without the jacket like i see some people do. Again that just looks goofy. This means that I only wear the service cap 2 or 3 times a year.
I have, and wear, both. Most of the time, I wear the Flight Cap, but for more "important" meetings- I prefer to wear the Service Cap. A brand new Service Cap is about $35.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 24, 2007, 03:05:52 AM
Is this right?
(http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/a2/6a/f1bb_1.JPG)
http://tinyurl.com/394s5k
The ebay description says its for a USAF 4-star chief of staff. Looks like a mistake to me.
I know the F&D's are for field grade or above, but was unaware there were more for generals.
While this one's cool,
Notice there are 3 farts and darts per side on that cap?
You need the one with only 2 per side, 3 is for generals just like the solid silver braid on the flight cap
Never worn one. I wanted to when I became a cadet officer since most of the others in MAWG do, but I couldn't find one that fit. Once I was able to, I was fed up with the attitude and pressuring from the other officers, so I refused to wear one. Ah, such a radical I was, wearing the normal flight cap. :D
Now that I am on the dark side, I just don't see the need to spend the money. Particularly when money is in such short supply at the moment.
Well, while we all still have our "learn on"...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Nathan_Twining_02.jpg/180px-Nathan_Twining_02.jpg)
General Nathan Farragut Twining, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1957–1960)
Quote from: wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_cap#United_States
In the United States Air Force, all personnel have the option to wear combination caps, but only Field-Grade (Major and above) and General Officers are required to own one. The cap of enlisted members has the insignia within a metal circle, while the Company-Grade (2dLt-1stLt-Captain) Officer version has a larger insignia without the metal circle. Field Grade Officers have two pairs of clouds and lightning bolts on the visor. General Officers caps add an extra pair of clouds and bolts on the visor, while the cap of the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force adds clouds and bolts around the entire cap band.
The clouds and bolts are jokingly referred to as "farts and darts."
These caps are often disliked because of their bulk. Airmen prefer the flight cap for practical reasons. They often refer to this hat as "the bus driver cap" instead of "service cap" because of its similarity to hats worn by the drivers in some cities' public transportation systems, and also because the round top is almost as large as the steering wheel of a bus.
From the same article above:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d3/USAF_Service_Cap.jpg/800px-USAF_Service_Cap.jpg)
His hand is in an odd position, and considering his job, he's likely as "tight and right" as anyone - probably coming down from a salute?
Also, there's no data on the photo (shows posted in May 2006), but no nametag on the jacket and didn't
enlisted recently go back to the "US" in a circle?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 24, 2007, 04:34:26 AM
From the same article above:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d3/USAF_Service_Cap.jpg/800px-USAF_Service_Cap.jpg)
His hand is in an odd position, and considering his job, he's likely as "tight and right" as anyone - probably coming down from a salute?
Also, there's no data on the photo (shows posted in May 2006), but no nametag on the jacket and didn't
enlisted recently go back to the "US" in a circle?
That picture is probably from circa 2004 or so. Being that he is assigned to the White House Military Office (Badge on right side), you can be assured that his uniform is correct.
And yes, it does look like he's just finishing up dropping a salute.
I follow the Army rule:
service uniform jacket... service cap.
service uniform without jacket... flight cap.
service uniform with jacket but in travel status or TDY... flight cap.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 24, 2007, 03:17:15 PM
I follow the Army rule:
service uniform jacket... service cap.
service uniform without jacket... flight cap.
service uniform with jacket but in travel status or TDY... flight cap.
That sounds reasonable - the nice thing about the wheel cap is it makes a much better rain hat (with a rain cover) than the flight cap.
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:50:46 AM
That picture is probably from circa 2004 or so. Being that he is assigned to the White House Military Office (Badge on left pocket), you can be assured that his uniform is correct.
You mean his right pocket... his left pocket has the skycop duty badge.
I NEVER wear one - my head isn't the right shape for them - what can I say...I'm deformed.
THe only CAP members I've ever seen wear them are new Mitchell Cadets...once you get your Earhart, you realize that it isn't really as cool as you thought it was and prefer to show the bling on the flight cap...
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 24, 2007, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:50:46 AM
That picture is probably from circa 2004 or so. Being that he is assigned to the White House Military Office (Badge on left pocket), you can be assured that his uniform is correct.
You mean his right pocket... his left pocket has the skycop duty badge.
Okay, I fixed it.
Quote from: jeders on November 24, 2007, 04:02:33 AM
I wear the service cap when I wear the service coat because I think that the flight cap just looks a little goofy with the jacket.
Likewise, I never wear the service cap without the jacket ..This means that I only wear the service cap 2 or 3 times a year.
That's exactly what I do.
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 24, 2007, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:50:46 AM
That picture is probably from circa 2004 or so. Being that he is assigned to the White House Military Office (Badge on left pocket), you can be assured that his uniform is correct.
You mean his right pocket... his left pocket has the skycop duty badge.
Okay, I fixed it.
No problem there... ;D
I have one that I wear with full blues, IF it's an outdoor event. I'm not going to bring a service cap to a indoor event, just to worry about where to keep the darn thing, or if it will get soiled, stolen, etc.
In the 70's an 80's the Army, USAF and USMC pretty much stopped issuing the service cap to enlisted: cost saving as well as a pain to travel with. They were authorized, just not widely used.
When I was in the Army, I wanted one, but didn't get one because nobody really wore them.
I've seen a recent resurgence of service green "Barracks Caps" work by enlisted Marines, though. I've seen Airmen wear them, on occasion. Of course, the Army has gone all-beret (for the time being) While Officers still wear dress-blue service caps, I understand that the green ones are for Army Band and Old Guard only.
Sevice caps look kinda cool, but they are a royal pain to lug around when you are not actually wearing them.
Supposedly with the ASU service caps will be worn by NCOs and above with SPC and below in beanie last I saw.
For me personally the service cap is a pain in the ass, so I wear the flight/garrison cap because I can stow it under my belt. Though I would prefer a beret to the flight cap as universal headgear... I have Euro tendencies. ;D
Wore a service cap WIWAC, but now it seems a bit overdressed in a CAP context and out of place in most situations.
"Though I would prefer a beret to the flight cap as universal headgear... I have Euro tendencies. ;D"
Well, if you get one, I will take a box of the thin mints and two boxes of the peanut butter cookies! Do you really want to wear the hat of he people that invented surrender?
Major Lord
Where do you think the flight cap originated from anyway?
Quote from: Major Lord on November 24, 2007, 08:50:45 PM
"Though I would prefer a beret to the flight cap as universal headgear... I have Euro tendencies. ;D"
Well, if you get one, I will take a box of the thin mints and two boxes of the peanut butter cookies! Do you really want to wear the hat of he people that invented surrender?
Well... the Froggies may not have invented surrender, but they've taken collaboration with the enemy when it suits them to a fine art! ;D
The flight cap was also worn in WWII by the RAF and the Luftwaffe.
QuoteI think that the flight cap just looks a little goofy with the jacket
I agree with you, but wear it anyway....
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on November 24, 2007, 02:50:04 AM
Quote from: MIKE on November 24, 2007, 02:40:00 AM
You must have missed all those threads were we made fun of service caps. The 1940s have come and gone.
Thats too bad, I liked the 1940's. Lets do it again.
The music was so much better. Ah well at least we've got Brian Setzer
I only wear the service cap when I am attending a Memorial Service or some other formal observance. I have seen officers at active AFB in full service dress wearing the flight caps and take my cue from them. They tend to wear the f&d's in more formal settings.
Quote from: MIKE on November 24, 2007, 08:57:01 PM
Where do you think the flight cap originated from anyway?
From the Army's garrison cap, which mimicked the Scottish glengary. The glengary, in turn, originated from the Scottish tam, or bonnet, similar in some ways to a beret.
That's true.
Rogers Rangers wore a modification of the Scottish cap, which resembled a garrison cap.
And that was when we (as then-loyal subjects of the Crown) were at war with France.
I wear my service cap ONLY when I wear the service coat. Not too often, but I DO wear it.
According to the AFI- all field grade officers must own one and wear it when in Service Dress.
Does CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 25, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
According to the AFI- all field grade officers must own one and wear it when in Service Dress.
Does CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO
I agree, but no they don't.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2007, 09:30:46 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 25, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
According to the AFI- all field grade officers must own one and wear it when in Service Dress.
Does CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO
I agree, but no they don't.
And you're almost guaranteed to have someone wind up getting the wrong kind of farts and darts on the visor. Believe me, I've seen that faux pas. Luckily, there weren't any RealAirForce® generals having kittens.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 25, 2007, 10:25:04 PM
[And you're almost guaranteed to have someone wind up getting the wrong kind of farts and darts on the visor. Believe me, I've seen that faux pas. Luckily, there weren't any RealAirForce® generals having kittens.
Back in the mid '80s, a fellow named Ralph Grady was CC of Georgia Wing, and his official CAP photo had him in a service cap ... with three farts and darts on each side of the visor. How
nobody caught that before the photo was published, I'll never understand.
I own a service cap and wore it regularly. When I rejoin, I'll wear it regularly again.
I like it, that's why.
Jack
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2007, 09:30:46 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 25, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
According to the AFI- all field grade officers must own one and wear it when in Service Dress.
Does CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO
I agree, but no they don't.
If your saying no they don't in regard to the USAF requiring field grade officers to own the service cap, I have a few quotes from AFI36-2903 2 Aug 2006
Chapter 2 Figure 2.12 Note 4 (page 33 for those interested)
QuoteService caps - Mandatory for majors and above to maintain.
Chapter 2 Table 2.1 Line 11 (page 54)
QuoteService cap mandatory for majors and above;
optional for all others.
Chapter 2 Table 2.3 Line 13 (page 77)
QuoteService cap mandatory
for majors and above; optional for
all others.
If thats not what you meant, then I need to read more carefully and hopefully some people have learned something, I know I did.
I own one. I've never worn is as a senior member, and doubt I'll find myself doing so at any point soon. The flight cap works fine for all ranks of USAF members, it'll work just fine for me.
I thought I read that the Service Cap will be mandatory for all AF Officers once the new jacket rolls out. Perhaps I am just on crack. As soon as I find it again I will post. 8)
Quote from: timmed1577 on November 26, 2007, 03:35:55 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2007, 09:30:46 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 25, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
According to the AFI- all field grade officers must own one and wear it when in Service Dress.
Does CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO
I agree, but no they don't.
If your saying no they don't in regard to the USAF requiring field grade officers to own the service cap, I have a few quotes from AFI36-2903 2 Aug 2006
Chapter 2 Figure 2.12 Note 4 (page 33 for those interested)
QuoteService caps - Mandatory for majors and above to maintain.
Chapter 2 Table 2.1 Line 11 (page 54)
QuoteService cap mandatory for majors and above;
optional for all others.
Chapter 2 Table 2.3 Line 13 (page 77)
QuoteService cap mandatory
for majors and above; optional for
all others.
If thats not what you meant, then I need to read more carefully and hopefully some people have learned something, I know I did.
You need to read more carefully. The question asked was:
QuoteDoes CAP REQUIRE this of field grade officers?
This is one area where we should Mirror-Image our Parent Service. IMHO.
and the answer was:
QuoteI agree, but no they don't.
CAP does not require the Service Cap. It should stay this way because the field grade Service Cap is a lot of money spent for little effect. I wore my enlisted Service Cap as a CAP Service Cap once or twice, but it went back to the hatrack when I made Major. Haven't missed it.
Aside from Field Grade, it is " Encouraged" for Unit Commanders of all ranks.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 24, 2007, 09:11:28 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 24, 2007, 08:50:45 PM
"Though I would prefer a beret to the flight cap as universal headgear... I have Euro tendencies. ;D"
Well, if you get one, I will take a box of the thin mints and two boxes of the peanut butter cookies! Do you really want to wear the hat of he people that invented surrender?
Well... the Froggies may not have invented surrender, but they've taken collaboration with the enemy when it suits them to a fine art! ;D
The flight cap was also worn in WWII by the RAF and the Luftwaffe.
According to the American history that I took in school, we wouldn't have won the Revolution without considerable help from the French. Their money and their navy made the difference against the British. Everytime I think about criticizing the way "modern" France behaves with something akin to smug self-righteousness, I swallow hard and remember we might still be under British jurisdiction without the French.
Quote from: DogCollar on November 26, 2007, 12:28:21 PMAccording to the American history that I took in school, we wouldn't have won the Revolution without considerable help from the French. Their money and their navy made the difference against the British. Everytime I think about criticizing the way "modern" France behaves with something akin to smug self-righteousness, I swallow hard and remember we might still be under British jurisdiction without the French.
True that, Padre... if it wasn't for the French cutting off the Brit reinforcements at sea, we would not have had a decisive victory at Yorktown. Modern French selfrighteousness has its origins around the time of Charles de Gaulle, and seems to be focused mainly in Paris. The French in Normandy still love Americans to this day. Unfortunately, we keep remembering the French by their actions today and not yesterday.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 26, 2007, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: DogCollar on November 26, 2007, 12:28:21 PMAccording to the American history that I took in school, we wouldn't have won the Revolution without considerable help from the French. Their money and their navy made the difference against the British. Everytime I think about criticizing the way "modern" France behaves with something akin to smug self-righteousness, I swallow hard and remember we might still be under British jurisdiction without the French.
True that, Padre... if it wasn't for the French cutting off the Brit reinforcements at sea, we would not have had a decisive victory at Yorktown. Modern French selfrighteousness has its origins around the time of Charles de Gaulle, and seems to be focused mainly in Paris. The French in Normandy still love Americans to this day. Unfortunately, we keep remembering the French by their actions today and not yesterday.
A couple of points:
Yes, the French did, in fact, move their fleet to bottle up the British at Yorktown. And for that ONE action at the end of a 6-year war, we are grateful. Merci.
Frenchmen in Normandy are not French. The region is a part of France, but is populated by persons of Nordic (Viking) heritage. The region was surrendered to the Vikings in exchange for a promise to stop raiding the rest of France. "Norman" is a shortened version of the English-language word, "Norseman," and refers to persons of Scandanavian genetic stock.
In 1066 the Normans attacked and conquered Saxon England. You didn't really think Frenchmen could have done that, did you?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 26, 2007, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 26, 2007, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: DogCollar on November 26, 2007, 12:28:21 PMAccording to the American history that I took in school, we wouldn't have won the Revolution without considerable help from the French. Their money and their navy made the difference against the British. Everytime I think about criticizing the way "modern" France behaves with something akin to smug self-righteousness, I swallow hard and remember we might still be under British jurisdiction without the French.
True that, Padre... if it wasn't for the French cutting off the Brit reinforcements at sea, we would not have had a decisive victory at Yorktown. Modern French selfrighteousness has its origins around the time of Charles de Gaulle, and seems to be focused mainly in Paris. The French in Normandy still love Americans to this day. Unfortunately, we keep remembering the French by their actions today and not yesterday.
A couple of points:
Yes, the French did, in fact, move their fleet to bottle up the British at Yorktown. And for that ONE action at the end of a 6-year war, we are grateful. Merci.
Frenchmen in Normandy are not French. The region is a part of France, but is populated by persons of Nordic (Viking) heritage. The region was surrendered to the Vikings in exchange for a promise to stop raiding the rest of France. "Norman" is a shortened version of the English-language word, "Norseman," and refers to persons of Scandanavian genetic stock.
In 1066 the Normans attacked and conquered Saxon England. You didn't really think Frenchmen could have done that, did you?
I don't think either the Normans or Saxons wore the Service Cap - or was this off topic?
Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 26, 2007, 02:48:35 PM
I don't think either the Normans or Saxons wore the Service Cap - or was this off topic?
But their descendants do. Easy there. Did it really hurt your brain to learn some history. Didn't think so!
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 26, 2007, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 26, 2007, 02:48:35 PM
I don't think either the Normans or Saxons wore the Service Cap - or was this off topic?
But their descendants do. Easy there. Did it really hurt your brain to learn some history. Didn't think so!
The low level, stilted version of history excreted here? Dang right it hurt my head!
French support: military, naval, financial and diplomatic, was vital for the success of the revolution. The French probably spent themselves into ruin supporting us, for little return. To blow off their support as "one naval victory" is right up there with "fighting the British by hiding behind rocks and trees" as examples of replacing history with American mythology.
Unfortunately, still off topic. Again, Service Caps are an expensive folly with which to saddle our members, especially when we decide to have another set of hardware for the TPU version.
The fewer versions of something we have - hats, epaulet slides, nametapes - the closer we get to uniform. More choices just makes us look less alike.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 26, 2007, 04:03:56 PM
French support: military, naval, financial and diplomatic, was vital for the success of the revolution. The French probably spent themselves into ruin supporting us, for little return. To blow off their support as "one naval victory" is right up there with "fighting the British by hiding behind rocks and trees" as examples of replacing history with American mythology.
Yep - although I think we pretty much evened the score about 65 years ago.
Personally I prefer the service cap. I find it more professional looking. I only wear my flight cap with my flight suit or with my cdu.
I may be dating myself, but when I was in the Air Force in the early 60's we thought the flight cap was nerdy we called it by another name not to be spoken here. To be cool we liked the Service cap with a special bendable band to give it a sort of 50 mission crush look.
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on November 26, 2007, 06:11:39 PM
I may be dating myself, but when I was in the Air Force in the early 60's we thought the flight cap was nerdy we called it by another name not to be spoken here. To be cool we liked the Service cap with a special bendable band to give it a sort of 50 mission crush look.
That held through the mid-70s, too, Captain. My BMTS fellows preferred the service cap too. (And we all know the nasty name the flight caps carried!)
Jack
Correct me if I'm wrong ... but isn't the Army also reinstating their version of the service cap, now that they're transitioning to the Army Blue uniform? Does it mean the end of the beret as regular headgear? (One can only hope.....)
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on November 26, 2007, 07:24:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong ... but isn't the Army also reinstating their version of the service cap, now that they're transitioning to the Army Blue uniform? Does it mean the end of the beret as regular headgear? (One can only hope.....)
Jack
Partly correct. The Service Cap has always been the prescribed headgear for the Army Blue uniform. The beret only replaced the Green Service Cap on the Army Green Uniform. Now that we are getting rid of the greens and mandating One uniform (Blues) as the as the only Dress Uniform, the beret is not following from what I understand. The Service Cap will be worn with the blues. Honestly, it is far better than wearing the beret!
I can't wait, as the Army Blue uniform is SO MUCH better than the Green Uniform, both historically and esthetically.
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on November 26, 2007, 06:11:39 PM
I may be dating myself, but when I was in the Air Force in the early 60's we thought the flight cap was nerdy we called it by another name not to be spoken here.
Amen to that, I wore the service cap in the AF back in the 60's as well with blues, 505's and 1505's. I've never understood the animosity towards service caps I've seen on these forums to begin with. Those flight caps are worthless and silly-looking. But yes, I wear them 'cause everyone else does.
I got one when I made major to wear for special occasions (like funerals) with my service coat...but almost 4 years as a major and I've yet to wear it.
Thankfully no funerals but no other special stuff either.
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 26, 2007, 07:39:58 PM
Quote from: ColonelJack on November 26, 2007, 07:24:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong ... but isn't the Army also reinstating their version of the service cap, now that they're transitioning to the Army Blue uniform? Does it mean the end of the beret as regular headgear? (One can only hope.....)
Jack
Partly correct. The Service Cap has always been the prescribed headgear for the Army Blue uniform. The beret only replaced the Green Service Cap on the Army Green Uniform. Now that we are getting rid of the greens and mandating One uniform (Blues) as the as the only Dress Uniform, the beret is not following from what I understand. The Service Cap will be worn with the blues. Honestly, it is far better than wearing the beret!
I can't wait, as the Army Blue uniform is SO MUCH better than the Green Uniform, both historically and esthetically.
I thought the beret would be worn with the blues for Specialists and below. (according to the
LiferArmy Times
Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 26, 2007, 04:03:56 PM
The low level, stilted version of history excreted here? Dang right it hurt my head!
Only because your head is painfully small to begin with. Most likely secondary to a public school (recent vintage) history education (Major Carralles' class excepted).
If we thank anyone it should be Lafayette. He jumped into the fray mostly of his own accord. The French government of the time was furious about being dragged into taking an actual side in the conflict by his actions. Their true desire was to use the upstart colonies to continue bleeding the hated English. The French government of the time didn't give a tinkers [darn] about American independence beyond it's usefulness in bedeviling the British.
And, the French government had a vested interest in continuing the myth of "Divine Right of Kings," that our Declaration of Independence expressly denied. They entered the conflict only to, as Aveighter said, to "Bleed the British."
The French were not successful in their overall aims, however. King George III was one of the more successful monarchs, with the American matter the only blot on his otherwise good record of managing the vast British Empire.
The French monarchy, however, fell to a violent internal revolution about the time we were establishing a Constitution.
Topic... or lock button goes weapons free.
I'll respect any man's opinion or woman's opinion and leave it at that, given that I'm not in the business of trying to spend gobs of type strokes, trying to change minds.
I'll simply say that the "historical" nature of the service cap isn't really a worthwhile argument unless we openly confess to some of the bias going with the argument. We don't advocate wearing tricorns, shakos, kepis, or 1880s-era "pointy-spiked" hats. Rather, we acknowledge things change, culture evolves/devolves (take your pick) and that's that.
So are we lauding for the roundy because Grandpa had one? 'Cause the Army and Marines have one? They look like WWII and that is the conflict folks mostly remember today? (These are all RHETORICAL questions; I don't need an answer.)
Like it or not, exceptions are not the rule. While the Air Force does instruct field-grade types to own service caps, the culture doesn't overtly prescribe to the practice of wearing them except in VERY special circumstances. Matter of fact, I'd lay down any person's hard-earned retirement that one would be hard-pressed to see any AF field grade officer or general officer wearing a service cap in routine circumstances or even formal circumstances that were of major significance (only in exceptional times do bus driver caps come out, such as a numbered Air Force changes of command, armed forces funeral, etc).
It's a slippery slope argument to say, "Well, I wore one in dubyuh-dubyuh two." I'm compelled to reply, "thanks, sincerely, for your service...but we're not debating your duty to your country; we're talking about a cap!"
If we're pulling the history factor, then just because the History Channel is slanted towards WW2 programs up the wazoo, I'm not so shy in saying that hey: Why not kepis? Slouch hats? Big fat sexy 1812-look-alike hat that's 3 feet high with a sexy ostrich plume?
I mean if we're gonna get something to make folks look at me, let's do it up right! ;D ;D
Shoot, I I still think that leisure suits aren't horrendous attire but concede that their time has long since passed. They served their function, but it's time to move on.
Ultimately, I'm NOT here to change minds. But from my vantage, this thread (sidenote: imagine that, another uniform thread) centers on these positions, of which I even question my OWN to show you my own objectivity:
-"The other services do it" (ridiculous to compare us to the other services, unless we're in their affiliation)
-"We wore 'em then why not now" (Slippery slope for tricorns)
-"They look better to me" (based on personal druthers or professional 2007/2008 AF culture?)
-"They're mandated for owning" (though not mandated for wear)
-"Flight cap is plenty acceptable alternative" (though you can't look as important as a Soviet General that way)
Folks, it all boils down to AF culture if you're talking AF clothes, pure dee... Sample airmen, get their take on "what would you think of some CAP member, strutting around in a service cap." If folks are so hot on looking like the AF, best get a MODERN take on what the average guy and gal in blue thinks instead of our dear old retired war buddies and mentors.
Otherwise, we're simply playing favorites in picking and choosing the parts of the Air Force we like and throwing away what we don't. (Doing so doesn't really bode well for those that think we should have closer ties to the AF when we only take what we like "as an AF Aux" ("gimme AF service caps!!!") and then reject what we don't like "as CAP Inc" ["but screw AF cultural practice of not wearing them hardly at all."])
Know what I mean, Verne? :)
Back to your regularlyscheduled topic...
I wear the service cap with the service uniform. I think it is more appropriate than the flight cap. From my experience, wear of the service cap is roughly 50% of senior offcers with the service dress.
Quote from: arajca on November 26, 2007, 11:34:40 PM
Back to your regularlyscheduled topic...
I wear the service cap with the service uniform. I think it is more appropriate than the flight cap. From my experience, wear of the service cap is roughly 50% of senior offcers with the service dress.
Sorry, just popped in, I think for the first time.
Andrew. WHAT? 50% of senior senior members in CAP wear the service cap with service dress? Maybe in your wing. Monty has a great way with words. I'll simply say it is a waste of money, no one in CAP should have one, barely anyone in the Air Force has one
(if they do, they hide them). I performed hundreds of joint service FORMAL ceremonies in Washington DC; at the Pentagon, White House, Ft. Myer, Bolling AFB and Andrews. 9x out of 10, the only AF folks with a service cap were the Honor Guard.
If I were NHQ King, I would actually ban such garb and save our membership millions of dollars.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 27, 2007, 12:18:46 AM
If I were NHQ King, I would actually ban such garb and save our membership millions of dollars.
If you're going to save the membership millions of dollars, start off by getting rid of Vanguard, not making the service hats obsolete. ;D
Personally, I have one. I wear it sometimes. Depends on the mood, really. And honestly, I spend 95% of my CAP service in either BDUs or a flight suit, so most of the time, I end up wearing the service cap because I can't remember where I left my flight cap (flight suit, flight bag, car, plane, on the ramp somewhere, etc etc)
OK, so what happened to the option of making a choice. I wear my service cap with my service (dare I say it?) blouse and my flt cap when not wearing the blouse. My choice, but at least I have the choice.
Because right now there is way too much personal choice involved in CAP uniforms and eliminating one expensive item would save members money and bring about a more uniform appearance among all members.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 27, 2007, 02:41:37 AM
Because right now there is way too much personal choice involved in CAP uniforms and eliminating one expensive item would save members money and bring about a more uniform appearance among all members.
Ok, so, in that light, why are we worrying about whether an officer wears the service cap or the flight cap? Let's worry about the blue polos and the white/greys before we start jumping on the service cap.
Because this is a thread about the service cap.....
I think we will see a shift in AF culture toward everyone wearing the service cap again. When the new "heritage" jacket rolls in, it will be one more way for AF to "get back to their roots".
Lets face it, when the Army mandates the blue Service Cap full time, sister Air Force will most likely follow (with a blue service cap).
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 27, 2007, 04:41:33 AM
I think we will see a shift in AF culture toward everyone wearing the service cap again. When the new "heritage" jacket rolls in, it will be one more way for AF to "get back to their roots".
Lets face it, when the Army mandates the blue Service Cap full time, sister Air Force will most likely follow (with a blue service cap).
Don't hold your breath on that one. Service caps are pretty much an endangered, almost extinct species in the Air Force.
"Lets face it, when the Army mandates the blue Service Cap full time, sister Air Force will most likely follow (with a blue service cap)."
Mine was white. ;D
Quote from: Grumpy on November 27, 2007, 05:10:47 AM
"Lets face it, when the Army mandates the blue Service Cap full time, sister Air Force will most likely follow (with a blue service cap)."
Mine was white. ;D
That's cuz you're OLDE!
I prefer the flight cap myself. Much more comfortable and easy to stow when indoors. But I do wear the service cap on occasion. Like at dining outs. At least it's getting me ready for the Army Dress Blues.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 27, 2007, 06:39:12 AM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 27, 2007, 05:10:47 AM
"Lets face it, when the Army mandates the blue Service Cap full time, sister Air Force will most likely follow (with a blue service cap)."
Mine was white. ;D
That's cuz you're OLDE!
;D ;D Good Morning Dave
Quote from: md132 on November 27, 2007, 07:30:48 AM
I prefer the flight cap myself. Much more comfortable and easy to stow when indoors. But I do wear the service cap on occasion. Like at dining outs. At least it's getting me ready for the Army Dress Blues.
To be perfectly honest, vanity is my reason for sticking to the flight cap. I tried on the service cap once, and it looked awful on me. I looked like Barney Fife's twin brother!! I think to wear the service cap, you need to look more like John Wayne or Clint Eastwood, all steely eyed and square jawed! That's just not me.
I only wore the service cap after getting the Mitchell and becoming a Senior, right up until my membership expired. The only exception was when I had to buy a flight cap to be on an encampment staff.
I wore the service cap until I became a field grade officer. I havnt purchased a new one yet.
With the old one I took the liner, and shaper out and wore it in the shower a few times. >:D
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 28, 2007, 02:41:57 AM
With the old one I took the liner, and shaper out and wore it in the shower a few times. >:D
That brings a disturbing mental image... ;D
I own a CAP Service Cap, and I normally wear it one day a year, Memorial Day.
I normally participate in a Memorial Day ceremony at one cemetery and another ceremony at Gill Robb Wilson's grave too.
I also wear it if I'm wearing CAP Service Dress at a funeral.
Those two occasions call for a bit more "formality", and Service Dress with the Service Cap does the job.
The rest of the time, flight (aka garrison) cap!
I go to a military school. Our normal headgear is a cover similar to the male service cap. I love it. We also don't have pockets (or belt loops, for that matter), so it's a great place to keep sticky note reminders and a little bit of cash tucked into the brim.
It was really, really weird wearing my CAP blues with flight cap for COS '06 and Encampment '06 and '07. I lived in constant fear of the wind.
But I won't go anywhere near the bucket hat (female service cap). It looks geeky. And it's not nearly as useful as the male service cap... whose usefulness is arguably questionable since the Air Force was smart enough to remember to include pockets (and belt loops, for that matter) on their uniform trousers.
Thought I'd offer...
I conducted a non-scientific sampling yesterday with some associates and colleagues who - prior to my conducting my little experiment - acknowledged their non-association with CAP or with the Armed Forces, but believed in their likely ability to at least point out an "army man" from a "navy man."
I passed out a collection of 20 photos of various photographed male armed forces personnel from the Army, Air Force, and Navy. Photographed members were either in a flight cap or service cap. The first set of 10 were in color, while the second set of 10 were in black and white/sepia toned.
I asked folks to conclude if the member in each photograph was either (a) Air Force, (b) Army, (c) Navy, or (d) "Not sure; something other than Army.
Simplifying the results: in color, folks collectively distinguished the folks in flight caps as either "Air Force" or "something other than Army" about 80% accurate. Simplifying the results in B/W, folks distinguished folks in flight caps as either "Air Force" or "something other than Army" about 60% accurate.
Now here's the simplified interesting finding. Folks significantly failed to identify - both in color and B/W - Air Force members in a service cap, generally considering service cap-clad personnel as Army.....especially in black and white.
So...while my little sampling was absolutely not scientifically randomized, nor did I even account for all the outlying variables, my sampling gives compelling fodder for the pondering: if uniforms mark a person as a member of a distinct group for outsiders to identify, who are the "others" we're trying to impress upon our difference?
Ourselves? Or, the public for whom we serve? Or, is it a combination with a scale-tilt to the outsiders? If it's the latter, the flight cap seems to be a good hypothesized focal point to ensure our distinctiveness with both the Air Force and also, distinctiveness apart from the Army.
If we're just gunning to make ourselves happy with ourselves (which I don't personally believe uniforms are meant to do), then by all means, "service cap it" away.....even make it green for that matter and as long as CAP has a green service cap, we'll still know.
Sort of makes me think....are service caps for some folks own intra-CAP vanity? Or are service caps part of a uniform designed to display to the public that we are a member of a team: Specifically, a part of the Air Force team?
(Again, I need no answers to my rhetorical questions.)
Though folks might be interested in my little experiment. :)
Quote from: Active Monty on November 26, 2007, 11:31:40 PM
Ultimately, I'm NOT here to change minds. But from my vantage, this thread (sidenote: imagine that, another uniform thread) centers on these positions, of which I even question my OWN to show you my own objectivity:
-"The other services do it" (ridiculous to compare us to the other services, unless we're in their affiliation)
-"We wore 'em then why not now" (Slippery slope for tricorns)
-"They look better to me" (based on personal druthers or professional 2007/2008 AF culture?)
-"They're mandated for owning" (though not mandated for wear)
-"Flight cap is plenty acceptable alternative" (though you can't look as important as a Soviet General that way)
Quote from: Active MontyOurselves? Or, the public for whom we serve? Or, is it a combination with a scale-tilt to the outsiders? If it's the latter, the flight cap seems to be a good hypothesized focal point to ensure our distinctiveness with both the Air Force and also, distinctiveness apart from the Army.
If we're just gunning to make ourselves happy with ourselves (which I don't personally believe uniforms are meant to do), then by all means, "service cap it" away.....even make it green for that matter and as long as CAP has a green service cap, we'll still know.
Sort of makes me think....are service caps for some folks own intra-CAP vanity?
But I'm just trying to look like the General...
(http://www.blueberet.org/GEN-CASS.jpg)
:P ;D
Quote from: dcpacemaker on November 28, 2007, 01:58:48 PM
But I'm just trying to look like the General...
(http://www.blueberet.org/GEN-CASS.jpg)
:P ;D
:o
Nice............... ::)
:)
(http://www.blueberet.org/GEN-CASS.jpg)
Yes, I know, that's General Cass.
What scares me, is that there are people in CAP and on this forum who actually want to look like that, when that is exactly what we should not look like.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 28, 2007, 02:12:42 PMWhat scares me, is that there are people in CAP and on this forum who actually want to look like that, when that is exactly what we should not look like.
Agree. My suspicion is that folks like to wrap themselves in a made-up cocoon of the following:
---Look like an Army guy without being in the Army (any more or ever)
---Big hat in the Civil Air Patrol makes me look important, like all those cool general photos from WWII
---Big hat makes me a part of the Air Force tradition, but forget about those airmen from WWI who stood by planes in flight caps
---I don't care if I look like a relic; please Air Force, bring me in closer, but respect my ability to differentiate my non-plasticity to become applicable in the modern era on account of my druthers to live in the 60s.
I guess I've now shown my hand and threw away my objectivity. Yes, to each his own. But I am more impressed with folks' big accomplishments than their big heads, made seemingly bigger with a big 'ole soup kettle on their skull.
9 times out of 10, I am too busy to really be impressed with Major Big Boy in his cap....but that 1 time out of 10 am left wondering, "
what's he compensating for...not hugged much as a kid, not given enough attention, or ?????"
Hate me if you wish...but I hate to break it to CAP that I'm not atypical from the currently-serving airmen, whose clothes we wear - and would cry like toddlers if we lost.
;)
Quote from: Active Monty on November 28, 2007, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 28, 2007, 02:12:42 PMWhat scares me, is that there are people in CAP and on this forum who actually want to look like that, when that is exactly what we should not look like.
Agree. My suspicion is that folks like to wrap themselves in a made-up cocoon of the following:
Not that I don't agree with ya'll, but is it too early for the sage sausage link in a service cap joke this morning?
(No offense intended to Brig Gen Cass, btw)EDIT: Apparently it's too early for me to be posting. I caught over 6 mistakes in that short post...
both of the gentlemen in the picture are to big to wear USAF uniforms.
I think a service cap is fine for formal occasions while wearing the service coat, otherwise wear the flight cap.
Quote from: DrJbdm on November 28, 2007, 02:42:32 PM
both of the gentlemen in the picture are to big to wear USAF uniforms.
I think a service cap is fine for formal occasions while wearing the service coat, otherwise wear the flight cap.
You know what? You're absolutely right. The service cap
is fine for formal occasions while wearing the service coat. The important thing to remember is that just becuase you wear the service jacket does
NOT mean it is a formal occasion. People seem to think that in CAP. An appropriate time to wear the service cap would be a funeral, retirement or awards ceremony, or dawg-gone-it, when it is actually announced by the event coordinator that service caps are required.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 28, 2007, 02:12:42 PM
What scares me, is that there are people in CAP and on this forum who actually want to look like that, when that is exactly what we should not look like.
Are you referring to the hats or the fats?
Hey guys,
Tedd, and General Cass may not have been within height weight at the time of the photo, but I would appreciate you not making fun of them. They are both legendary CAP officers.
My comments were in reference to the hat, not their weight. You can be legendary and still be over weight. It's cool.
But keep in mind, it was said this week that by 2015 75% of the US population will be overweight. I wonder what percentage of CAP seniors are overweight today.
It's about being healthy, not looking good. Fit to fight search!
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 29, 2007, 02:24:25 PM
Hey guys,
Tedd, and General Cass may not have been within height weight at the time of the photo, but I would appreciate you not making fun of them. They are both legendary CAP officers.
actually, I
was then. And... about cadet age too.
But
this Tedd isn't the
Ted you're looking for. :D