Just got back from the GLR Region ES Conference.
Not one salute rendered by myself. Not one salute observed during the entire conference. And, the AF gate guards did not salute me even though I was wearing brand new lieutenant bars. <sniff>
Most present showed up wearing golf shirts. Most others wore either blues or corporate uniforms. Three others besides me wore green BDUs. The AF officers all came wearing flight suits. The NOC guys wore a different sort of golf shirt.
I could not find the O-club. If there was one I doubt it would have been open. If it had been open I doubt anyone would have been there. This base is dead on the weekends.
Otherwise, there was a lot of useful info obtained.
--NM
What useful stuff did you pick up?
It is hard to know who is to salute whom when they wear a golf shirt but the reality is, if you are a new Lt then you are probably the low man and should render the salute first...if in doubt salute.
As a Lt Col, I am usually the one who is having to respond to salutes. Remember a verbal greeting is sufficient, especially during ES. In our training exercises we usually designate it a "no salute zone".
Since you are civilian, no one on the base is required to salute you. I always am humbled when I receive a salute from active military.
In actual and simulated combat, salutes are not exchanged.
Clearly then, combat was being simulated. I was, not doubt, the victorious one.
At the NB, it is not simulation.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 28, 2007, 01:33:17 AM
And, the AF gate guards did not salute me even though I was wearing brand new lieutenant bars. <sniff>
The last several bases I entered all had civilian gate guards. Don't expect a salute there. Most military guards would salute your vehicle based on the "officer" color of your base decal. Since they are doing a 100% ID check anymore, base decals are being phased out and I am sure they (if it is military gate guards) salute based on what they see on your ID Card. Even an eagle on your windshield doesn't guarantee a salute.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 28, 2007, 01:33:17 AM
I could not find the O-club. If there was one I doubt it would have been open. If it had been open I doubt anyone would have been there. This base is dead on the weekends.
Now you know why they are consolidating most clubs stateside.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 28, 2007, 01:33:17 AM
Just got back from the GLR Region ES Conference.
Not one salute rendered by myself. Not one salute observed during the entire conference.
And you're proud / happy about this?
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 28, 2007, 01:33:17 AM
Just got back from the GLR Region ES Conference.
Not one salute rendered by myself. Not one salute observed during the entire conference.
And you're proud / happy about this?
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
Wouldn't he look sort of silly running around saluting a bunch of people who weren't doing it themselves?
Warning: Sarcasm ahead. Not to be construed as serious.
Let's do away with rank altogether, or do like the Texas Army reenacting group and designate all adults as Colonel. Then no one's in charge, no saluting, no rank induced ego trips.
Grrrrr >:(
Quote from: Dad2-4 on October 28, 2007, 11:22:15 PM
Warning: Sarcasm ahead. Not to be construed as serious.
Let's do away with rank altogether, or do like the Texas Army reenacting group and designate all adults as Colonel. Then no one's in charge, no saluting, no rank induced ego trips.
Think you are in the wrong organization. Rank has been a part of this organization for almost 66 years. We wear uniforms and military rank insignias.
Quote from: USCAP_truth on October 29, 2007, 01:01:20 AM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on October 28, 2007, 11:22:15 PM
Warning: Sarcasm ahead. Not to be construed as serious.
Let's do away with rank altogether, or do like the Texas Army reenacting group and designate all adults as Colonel. Then no one's in charge, no saluting, no rank induced ego trips.
Think you are in the wrong organization. Rank has been a part of this organization for almost 66 years. We wear uniforms and military rank insignias.
Hence the sarcasm warning, in red, in the original posters' text.
Quote from: Pylon on October 29, 2007, 01:02:05 AM
Quote from: USCAP_truth on October 29, 2007, 01:01:20 AM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on October 28, 2007, 11:22:15 PM
Warning: Sarcasm ahead. Not to be construed as serious.
Let's do away with rank altogether, or do like the Texas Army reenacting group and designate all adults as Colonel. Then no one's in charge, no saluting, no rank induced ego trips.
Think you are in the wrong organization. Rank has been a part of this organization for almost 66 years. We wear uniforms and military rank insignias.
Hence the sarcasm warning, in red, in the original posters' text.
Don't you just love the situational awareness that some of our "adult" members show? ::)
Quote from: Chappy on October 28, 2007, 01:50:39 AM
It is hard to know who is to salute whom when they wear a golf shirt but the reality is, if you are a new Lt then you are probably the low man and should render the salute first...if in doubt salute.
Salutes are not given to anyone wearing a golf shirt. Unless a person is wearing a USAF-style uniform (or the CMoH is hanging around their neck) they are not saluted - regardless of rank. TP supposedly tried to get his uniform exempted to this so that those wearing the TPU were saluted but it is not an official reg that I know of and salutes are not given to those wearing it, nor should they be expected.
Also as mentioned, many gate guards are now civilian cops, so salutes shouldn't be expected from them either. Moreso that that, however, is the fact that many gates (at least at the few bases I've been to recently) are "No Salute Zones".
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 28, 2007, 01:33:17 AM
Just got back from the GLR Region ES Conference.
Not one salute rendered by myself. Not one salute observed during the entire conference. And, the AF gate guards did not salute me even though I was wearing brand new lieutenant bars. <sniff>
Most present showed up wearing golf shirts. Most others wore either blues or corporate uniforms. Three others besides me wore green BDUs. The AF officers all came wearing flight suits. The NOC guys wore a different sort of golf shirt.
I could not find the O-club. If there was one I doubt it would have been open. If it had been open I doubt anyone would have been there. This base is dead on the weekends.
Otherwise, there was a lot of useful info obtained.
--NM
The only time I've seen the club occupied is on UTA weekends, and this wasn't a UTA. Heck, I only saw one USAF guy there all weekend that wasn't a SF person, and that was at noon today (Sunday).
And there were CAP folks there in flight suits too, just not many.
I thought the custom is to salute a senior upon recognition (assuming it is appropriate under the circumstances) without regard to whether the officer is wearing uniform or civilian clothing?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 29, 2007, 02:22:14 AM
I thought the custom is to salute a senior upon recognition (assuming it is appropriate under the circumstances) without regard to whether the officer is wearing uniform or civilian clothing?
Only when wearing military-style uniform (
not CAP corporate uniform).
Grrrrrrrr >:(
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
I thought Nomex was a 1LT because he's a pilot...
Private Pilot = 2d Lt
...with commander's approval, of course.
Quote from: Walkman on October 29, 2007, 05:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
I thought Nomex was a 1LT because he's a pilot...
Nomex is a 2Lt on his collar...
... but the next Supreme National Commander in his mind. Watch out!
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 29, 2007, 12:18:13 PM
Nomex is a 2Lt on his collar...
... but the next Supreme National Commander in his mind. Watch out!
We've had one too many of those "Supreme" National Commanders... don't fall into that trap. ;)
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 29, 2007, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: Walkman on October 29, 2007, 05:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
I thought Nomex was a 1LT because he's a pilot...
Nomex is a 2Lt on his collar...
... but the next Supreme National Commander in his mind. Watch out!
You'll have to get in line behind Colgan and me...
Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2007, 02:09:34 AM
Salutes are not given to anyone wearing a golf shirt. Unless a person is wearing a USAF-style uniform (or the CMoH is hanging around their neck) they are not saluted - regardless of rank.
Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2007, 02:26:54 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 29, 2007, 02:22:14 AM
I thought the custom is to salute a senior upon recognition (assuming it is appropriate under the circumstances) without regard to whether the officer is wearing uniform or civilian clothing?
Only when wearing military-style uniform (not CAP corporate uniform).
This came up in our unit one night, so we looked up the requirements. In CAPP 151 it states:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
Thus, it matters what you are wearing, not what the other person is wearing. So, if you are wearing a military-style uniform and you recognize a higher-ranking individual, you salute, regardless of what he/she is wearing.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on October 29, 2007, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: Walkman on October 29, 2007, 05:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
As a new butterbar you likely owed everyone their a salute, whether they return it is irrelevant.
I thought Nomex was a 1LT because he's a pilot...
Nomex is a 2Lt on his collar...
... but the next Supreme National Commander in his mind. Watch out!
Whoops, my bad. ;D
As usual, we're concentrating on the peas-n-carrots, and not the meat: I certainly hope that the conference was worthwhile and informative for all.
My experience at Wing/ Region conferences and the like is that they are usually "no salute" events: with all the cadets in attendance, Seniors may as well walk around with their hand plastered to their foreheads. . . .
My comments here deal with the trivial and amusing. Perhaps trivially amusing. I did get useful info out of the conference but that was not the point of this thread.
Five more hours and I go flying!
Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2007, 02:26:54 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 29, 2007, 02:22:14 AM
I thought the custom is to salute a senior upon recognition (assuming it is appropriate under the circumstances) without regard to whether the officer is wearing uniform or civilian clothing?
Only when wearing military-style uniform (not CAP corporate uniform).
It >is< the custom.
I share Grumpy's "GRRRRR".
This idea that you'll only salute if you expect one to be returned is ridiculous. what is this? 6th grade?
A lot of our members come from units where courtesies are ignores or disdained - and one way to help fix that situation is to SALUTE PEOPLE.
Peer pressure works. At some point they will get the idea that at least you expect CAP customs and courtesies to be followed, whether they do it back home is irrelevant, they will at least think about it the next time it comes up.
Saluting is not a sign of submission, as some people seem to feel, it is a sign of respect, friendship, and salutation.
Pick one and get over yourself.
Quote from: davedove on October 29, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2007, 02:26:54 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 29, 2007, 02:22:14 AM
I thought the custom is to salute a senior upon recognition (assuming it is appropriate under the circumstances) without regard to whether the officer is wearing uniform or civilian clothing?
Only when wearing military-style uniform (not CAP corporate uniform).
This came up in our unit one night, so we looked up the requirements. In CAPP 151 it states:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
Thus, it matters what you are wearing, not what the other person is wearing. So, if you are wearing a military-style uniform and you recognize a higher-ranking individual, you salute, regardless of what he/she is wearing.
This is true and your clarification is appreciated.
However, how do you make such a determination from someone in a golf shirt or a blazer? Real world answer: You can't and they shouldn't expect a salute. Likewise, those wearing civilian attire aren't obligated to salute someone wearing a USAF-style uniform either.
http://level2.cap.gov/Prof_Dev_Modules/cap_lesson_10/lesson10_html/lesson10.htm
QuoteNOTE: CAP military style uniforms include Service Dress, long and short sleeve blue shirt combinations, BDU, and Flight Suit for which military customs and courtesies apply. The CAP blazer is considered civilian attire and all customs and courtesies observed while wearing this blazer should follow civilian attire procedures.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2007, 04:36:41 PM
It >is< the custom.
I share Grumpy's "GRRRRR".
This idea that you'll only salute if you expect one to be returned is ridiculous. what is this? 6th grade?
Where did you come up with this? Whether a return salute is expected was never part of the discussion. Nonetheless, as continued below, a nice professional response. ::) Well done.
Quote from: EclipseA lot of our members come from units where courtesies are ignores or disdained - and one way to help fix that situation is to SALUTE PEOPLE.
Peer pressure works. At some point they will get the idea that at least you expect CAP customs and courtesies to be followed, whether they do it back home is irrelevant, they will at least think about it the next time it comes up.
Saluting is not a sign of submission, as some people seem to feel, it is a sign of respect, friendship, and salutation.
Pick one and get over yourself.
It's a matter of expectations. Will anyone chastise a person for offering a salute to a senior officer not in a military-style uniform? No. At the sametime however, that senior officer should not expect or assume they will be offered a salute when in civilian attire (i.e. golf shirt, blazer).
redacted as more wasted 1's and 0's.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2007, 05:14:08 PM
redacted as more wasted 1's and 0's.
No worries. I saw the original comment. You clearly lead by example.
Some people you just can't reach. *Lock*
I hope, nay, strongly recommend that further threads regarding this ES Conference (if there must be any) break from the sexy topic fodder such as who wore what uniforms, who didn't get a salute, (honestly, guys... geez.) and O-club worries, and instead focus on the content of the conference.
or don't bother.