The following is only one idea (amongst many)... just food for thought and discussion.
It may still be some time yet... before the Civil Air Patrol adopts a version of the OCP uniform. Nevertheless, some photographs posted online (of the South Carolina State Guard) shows what might be a possible way that C.A.P. could also wear the OCP uniform:
1.) dark air force blue name tapes... with silver lettering (same as those used on current ABU and BBDU).
2.) OCP camouflage rank patch in the center of the shirt/jacket.
Looking at the way that South Carolina's defense force wore the uniform gives a clear example of what it would look like. The photographs can be found on the following web page:
(click the link below)...
https://statedefenseforce.com/main/2021/05/27/sc-state-guard-soldier-receives-fbi-community-leadership-award/ (https://statedefenseforce.com/main/2021/05/27/sc-state-guard-soldier-receives-fbi-community-leadership-award/)
This has been beat to death both here and on reddit. The proposal is at HQAF working its way through channels. It will be whatever the proposal says+whatever changes HQAF dictates. Just be patient and see what comes down the pike.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 22, 2024, 03:13:20 PMThis has been beat to death both here and on reddit. The proposal is at HQAF working its way through channels. It will be whatever the proposal says+whatever changes HQAF dictates. Just be patient and see what comes down the pike.
When 39-1 drops with the changes, we'll all know what they are.
Walt, don't stop me mid-swing, I'm trying to hit the horse, it's not dead enough! ;D
That being said, we already have everything we need to transition to OCPs. Nametape, CAP-Tape, and Rank patch all exist in Silver on Blue with Velcro.
Full-color Flag and most CAP Patches exist with Velcro as well.
Sew-on Rank and Badges in Silver on Blue, again, already exist as well.
The only thing HQ-USAF needs to dictate is tee-shirt color (Coyote, Black or Dark Navy-blue) and boot color (Coyote, Black or both).
Any of the options laid out will look fine and professional, yet provide a clear differentiation from our counterparts in the USAF.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 04:06:26 PMThat being said, we already have everything we need to transition to OCPs. Nametape, CAP-Tape, and Rank patch all exist in Silver on Blue with Velcro.
Basically, this.
There's almost no need to create any more SKUs unless we go with embroidered cadet enlisted insginia. We have 98+% of it already.
Quoteembroidered cadet enlisted insignia
They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 22, 2024, 03:13:20 PMThis has been beat to death both here and on reddit. The proposal is at HQAF working its way through channels. It will be whatever the proposal says+whatever changes HQAF dictates. Just be patient and see what comes down the pike.
@HandsomeWalt:
Agree with this completely! Whatever is worked out & decided upon... we will wear.
Just sharing ideas & thoughts. (noticed it on a website while surfing the internet)
priority when it comes to uniforms... is utility. the precise colors (or shades of colors) are almost always a secondary detail... especially for a civilian / non-combat entity such as Civil Air Patrol.
(Personally, for outdoor work... I'm a fan of the same clothes that I wear to go camping or fishing)
Quote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 07:40:47 PMThey might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
And pinning metal cadet rank on a blank tab that's then going to be attached directly over your sternum? Ehhhh. I think there's better ways to do that.
I've never understood the blank rank square. They could have pinned directly to the velcro OR offered embroidered cadet enlisted rank insignia with ease. Yeah, it's one more thing for Cadets to buy but it's not a massive expense.
Where I have seen the blank square used with metal grade insignia usually the pins were bent over.
Yes one time use but the danger of injury is much less.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but cadet rank is sold in pairs, yes? So unless a cadet has a goretex as well as a fleece, they're paying for two additional pins, one pair, instead of buying one single embroidered insignia. This just seems like a sensible change we could make with the OCP transition. Cadets could purchase the exact amount of insignia they need for various garments. Don't mind me, just thinking out loud now.
Quote from: NIN on March 22, 2024, 06:44:57 PMQuote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 04:06:26 PMThat being said, we already have everything we need to transition to OCPs. Nametape, CAP-Tape, and Rank patch all exist in Silver on Blue with Velcro.
Basically, this.
There's almost no need to create any more SKUs unless we go with embroidered cadet enlisted insginia. We have 98+% of it already.
this is very true!
Quote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 07:40:47 PMQuoteembroidered cadet enlisted insignia
They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.
On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 24, 2024, 11:38:59 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 07:40:47 PMQuoteembroidered cadet enlisted insignia
They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.
On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.
I think you're think of something different. I believe the discussion of embroidered cadet stripes is they are embroidered on a fabric square with a velcro backing to put on the OCP tab for grade insignia, like the military does, not sew-on the sleeves.
Quote from: NIN on March 22, 2024, 03:59:42 PMWhen 39-1 drops with the changes, we'll all know what they are.
Does "all" mean that some members (i.e. Wing/Regions CCs) already know what the changes are?
Quote from: ML07 on March 24, 2024, 10:52:38 PMQuote from: NIN on March 22, 2024, 03:59:42 PMWhen 39-1 drops with the changes, we'll all know what they are.
Does "all" mean that some members (i.e. Wing/Regions CCs) already know what the changes are?
I'm sure that some members within the NUC, Command Council, etc already have an inkling what is in the proposal. That's irrelevant. What is finally decided and disseminated to the wider membership will be made known at the appropriate time.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 24, 2024, 11:29:14 PMQuote from: ML07 on March 24, 2024, 10:52:38 PMQuote from: NIN on March 22, 2024, 03:59:42 PMWhen 39-1 drops with the changes, we'll all know what they are.
Does "all" mean that some members (i.e. Wing/Regions CCs) already know what the changes are?
I'm sure that some members within the NUC, Command Council, etc already have an inkling what is in the proposal. That's irrelevant. What is finally decided and disseminated to the wider membership will be made known at the appropriate time.
I literally shared what was in the DRAFT copy in the other thread (Winter Command Council). 90% of the information going around is incorrect RUMINT.
Again, OCPs with same (current) color scheme for all insignia with coyote colored boots. As of 1 March it wasn't even sitting with the AF, nor had it been reviewed by CAP/CC. Once it is reviewed and endorsed, THEN it'll go to the AF for consideration.
Once again, this was at the uniform breakout session at the Winter Command Council with about 25 others sitting there, including the CAP/XO and three members of the NUC.
OCPs are coming, unless someone puts a stop to them OR someone denies the current DRAFT. When? Could be six months, could be 18 months. That is what we do not know.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 23, 2024, 09:04:32 PMI've never understood the blank rank square. They could have pinned directly to the velcro OR offered embroidered cadet enlisted rank insignia with ease. Yeah, it's one more thing for Cadets to buy but it's not a massive expense.
As a SMWOG, a bank square is what I wear on my winter coat and on my plate carrier/gear vest when in the field.
From what Maj Gen. Edward D. Phelka has stated at the Pacific Region Confrence, Phelka is currently communicating with the U.S. Air Force to adopt this uniform in the few years from now.
Quote from: Matthew Klempner on May 14, 2024, 07:13:23 PMfew years from now.
::)
Seriously, there's no need to delay. The COVID-19 shortages are over. The Army (AC, RC, NG), the Air Force (AC, RC, NG) and the Space Force (AC, RC, NG) have ALL completed their transitions to OCPs. The uniform is readily available from AAFES and numerous commercial vendors.
So why the delay?
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 15, 2024, 04:28:57 PMQuote from: Matthew Klempner on May 14, 2024, 07:13:23 PMfew years from now.
::)
Seriously, there's no need to delay. The COVID-19 shortages are over. The Army (AC, RC, NG), the Air Force (AC, RC, NG) and the Space Force (AC, RC, NG) have ALL completed their transitions to OCPs. The uniform is readily available from AAFES and numerous commercial vendors.
So why the delay?
The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request. Civil Air Patrol has made the request. The ball is no longer in our court.
Quote from: SierraOneThree on May 15, 2024, 08:04:19 PMVanguard, last I heard.
Vanguard is a piece of the puzzle. Even when the Air Force eventually gives permissions, CAP has to plan the transition around how much stock of ABU stuff Vanguard has. As soon as CAP announces the phase out of ABUs, CAP has to purchase whatever remaining stock of ABU items Vanguard has so that they don't end up with product they can't sell.
Quote from: Fubar on May 17, 2024, 07:34:41 PMQuote from: SierraOneThree on May 15, 2024, 08:04:19 PMVanguard, last I heard.
Vanguard is a piece of the puzzle. Even when the Air Force eventually gives permissions, CAP has to plan the transition around how much stock of ABU stuff Vanguard has. As soon as CAP announces the phase out of ABUs, CAP has to purchase whatever remaining stock of ABU items Vanguard has so that they don't end up with product they can't sell.
I don't doubt you're right, but I don't see why they have to buy them until the final phaseout date. Let VG sell them until then, just direct no new orders. They kept selling BDU clothing and ultramarine items on closeout for years. I'm sure some clever fellow with a mind for retail analytics can determine exactly when to stop producing/stocking the ABU stuff as the OCPs come out.
Quote from: SARDOC on May 17, 2024, 04:30:51 AMThe Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request. Civil Air Patrol has made the request. The ball is no longer in our court.
The Air Force approved it ages ago, from what I understand direct from the NUC chair as of late last year. OCPs are a given and everyone involved knows it, the only thing I can think of as far as going back to make them review it again was the addition of brown boots a few months back. But now I'm hearing the uniform has once again been pushed out a year or two, so some transparency would be nice given how many squadrons/members simply cannot get ABUs anymore.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on May 17, 2024, 09:35:26 PMI don't doubt you're right, but I don't see why they have to buy them until the final phaseout date. Let VG sell them until then, just direct no new orders. They kept selling BDU clothing and ultramarine items on closeout for years. I'm sure some clever fellow with a mind for retail analytics can determine exactly when to stop producing/stocking the ABU stuff as the OCPs come out.
Because the second you say ABUs are on the way out and here's where to buy the new uniform, the demand for the discontinued uniform is gonna drop to near zero. At least that's what happened with the BDU to ABU transition. I doubt Vanguard is willing (and likely isn't contractually obligated) to sit on ABU inventory for the five year phase-out of ABUs to then have CAP purchase wasn't sold.
So the goal is to have the inventory as low as possible so that CAP buys the minimal amount of uniforms as possible to then, presumably, throw away.
Quote from: SierraOneThree on May 18, 2024, 03:11:29 AMThe Air Force approved it ages ago, from what I understand direct from the NUC chair as of late last year. OCPs are a given and everyone involved knows it, the only thing I can think of as far as going back to make them review it again was the addition of brown boots a few months back. But now I'm hearing the uniform has once again been pushed out a year or two, so some transparency would be nice given how many squadrons/members simply cannot get ABUs anymore.
Well, the CEO and his vice commander (and soon to be CEO) keep answering the question at wing conferences across the country and people keep posting what they say, so they don't seem to be treating the information like a secret. I also just checked, Vanguard is still selling ABUs, so there shouldn't be any members who can't get ABUs if they want/need them.
Quote from: Fubar on May 18, 2024, 10:58:41 AMWell, the CEO and his vice commander (and soon to be CEO) keep answering the question at wing conferences across the country and people keep posting what they say, so they don't seem to be treating the information like a secret. I also just checked, Vanguard is still selling ABUs, so there shouldn't be any members who can't get ABUs if they want/need them.
More than their fair share of anecdotes reporting severe backorders.
Also, they're pretty much the ONLY real "consistent" place to get ABUs, and you get to pay nearly $130 for a full set. You can save a few bucks by not getting a patrol cap though. Going to encampment and need a second set of ABUs? Good luck!
Quote from: SierraOneThree on May 15, 2024, 08:04:19 PMVanguard, last I heard.
FRAK Vanguard. >:(
They'll just up charge the cost of a uniform that can be bought for a third less online elsewhere.
Okay, I completely understand the need to have a single source for CAP specific items (rank, badges, awards, etc,) but I don't think we need to be tied to them for uniform clothing items.
Blue BDUs can be bought from numerous venders.
OCPs can be bought from numerous venders.
USAF-style uniforms can be bought from numerous venders.
White pilot shirts, grey trousers, and dark blue suit coats can be bought from numerous venders.
BUT, they have us by the short hairs for ABUs, because no one else wants them. I submit to you it is STILL easier to get woodland pattern BDUs from an outside vender today, then it is to get ABUs from ANYWHERE besides Vanguard.
Again, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.
This eliminates future "Mother May I" requests and puts Vanguard on notice not to buy additional obsolete uniforms in the 5-year transition period when chang occurs.
[quote/] The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request. Civil Air Patrol has made the request. The ball is no longer in our court.
[/quote]
That's a fair answer and most likely the truth.
QuoteQuote from: Shuman 14 on May 18, 2024, 07:37:37 PMThe Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request. Civil Air Patrol has made the request. The ball is no longer in our court.
That's a fair answer and most likely the truth.
I have consistent spoken with people directly involved with the draft and working committees and to a T they all pretty much have told me over the years that aside from DLA, it makes its way through the CAP-USAF approval fairly quickly. That said, I understand we had DLA approval early last year, so the word that I got about it being Vanguard (from the NUC chair last year) seems most plausible unless they keep changing things after approval.
One of those changes being brown boots though? Yeah, I'm fine with that one having delayed things.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 18, 2024, 07:32:29 PMAgain, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.
Of course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.
Quote from: Fubar on May 19, 2024, 11:00:15 AMOf course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.
For some reason, that line made me think of Sir Humphrey Appleby from the BBC political comedy
Yes, Prime Minister. It's just a line Sir Humphrey would say.
Jack
Quote from: Fubar on May 19, 2024, 11:00:15 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on May 18, 2024, 07:32:29 PMAgain, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.
Of course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.
Well, if we don't try, we'll never know, the worst they can do/say is "no".
How many times did we have to ask about military awards on corporate uniforms and now they finally said yes.
I say push it forward and see what happen. A five-year wear-out date is more than reasonable.
Quote from: arajca on March 24, 2024, 02:44:34 PMQuote from: SarDragon on March 24, 2024, 11:38:59 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 07:40:47 PMQuoteembroidered cadet enlisted insignia
They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.
On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.
I think you're think of something different. I believe the discussion of embroidered cadet stripes is they are embroidered on a fabric square with a velcro backing to put on the OCP tab for grade insignia, like the military does, not sew-on the sleeves.
Belated follow up but I just found these, USAF JROTC Rank on OCP (https://www.supplyroomjrotc.com/army-jrotc/product/425532/air-force-jrotc-enlisted-rank-ocp-with-fastener).
Not the same as CAP Cadet Rank, but showing it can be easily done, once we move OCPs.
Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 21, 2024, 05:07:40 PMFull color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.
And the fleece (IIRC, its a slide, not a velcro tab, on outerwear like a goretex..)
Quote from: NIN on May 21, 2024, 06:10:46 PMQuote from: Shuman 14 on May 21, 2024, 05:07:40 PMFull color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.
And the fleece (IIRC, its a slide, not a velcro tab, on outerwear like a goretex..)
The coyote fleeces have a velcro patch, the light and mid weight OCP coats have velcro patches only the extreme cold/wet gortex top, which the fleece goes under, has a tab anymore and it no longer has an arm pocket for the mini nametape.
CAP in 2026: Adopts OCPs
Army in 2026: Adopts new multicam variant
Air Force in 2027: Adopts new multicam variant
CAP in 2028: Can't find OCPs
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 30, 2024, 04:06:01 PMCAP in 2026: Adopts OCPs
Army in 2026: Adopts new multicam variant
Air Force in 2027: Adopts new multicam variant
CAP in 2028: Can't find OCPs
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Perfect reason to put everyone in blue BDUs...
Quote from: THRAWN on May 30, 2024, 05:42:44 PMQuote from: TheSkyHornet on May 30, 2024, 04:06:01 PMCAP in 2026: Adopts OCPs
Army in 2026: Adopts new multicam variant
Air Force in 2027: Adopts new multicam variant
CAP in 2028: Can't find OCPs
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Perfect reason to put everyone in blue BDUs...
That's not a bad idea...
...OR...
We put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 21, 2024, 08:11:01 PMit no longer has an arm pocket for the mini nametape.
Not that the mini-nametapes were ever authorized...
(https://i.imgur.com/l9eh3D8.png)
8)
QuoteNot that the mini-nametapes were ever authorized...
Clearly an oversite by the last Regulation Update Team. ;D
Oh for crying out loud. Just go with the blue BDU and make it easy.
Quote from: culpeper on May 30, 2024, 10:33:22 PMOh for crying out loud. Just go with the blue BDU and make it easy.
I would tend to agree but as was pointed out in a previous thread, having everyone in BBDU could have us confused for some type of Law Enforcement Agency and it could affect recruiting as part of the draw for CAP for both Cadets and some Seniors is the ability to wear an USAF-style uniform.
I don't know what the answer is. Again, in another thread it was suggested that CAP should adopt an OCP-style uniform, in cut and style, but in olive drab color. Using all the silver-grey on blue tapes, rank tab and full color patches and flag currently used on ABUs. Military enough to still have the recruiting draw but different enough from the USAF and Law Enforcement so not to be confused for either.
My vote is we wait for OCPs. Army, Air Force, Space Force, ROTC, JROTC, AFROTC, and AFJROTC have all completed their transition to OCPs. Still trying to understand why we're still in ABUs.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 21, 2024, 05:07:40 PMQuote from: arajca on March 24, 2024, 02:44:34 PMQuote from: SarDragon on March 24, 2024, 11:38:59 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on March 22, 2024, 07:40:47 PMQuoteembroidered cadet enlisted insignia
They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.
Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.
On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.
I think you're think of something different. I believe the discussion of embroidered cadet stripes is they are embroidered on a fabric square with a velcro backing to put on the OCP tab for grade insignia, like the military does, not sew-on the sleeves.
Belated follow up but I just found these, USAF JROTC Rank on OCP (https://www.supplyroomjrotc.com/army-jrotc/product/425532/air-force-jrotc-enlisted-rank-ocp-with-fastener).
Not the same as CAP Cadet Rank, but showing it can be easily done, once we move OCPs.
Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.
Very good visual... of what is possible.
CAP may (or may not) one day decide to do something like this. However, this is an excellent example... of what types of things can fairly easily be done.
Thanks Shuman 14.
Just as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.
A complete male OCP uniform, using DLATS components from AAFES, would cost $292.47. A complete Vanguard ABU uniform today is $346.30. If you go to commercial sources for OCPs, it's considerably more expensive than AAFES (which is unsurprising): $69.99 for the shirt/coat, and $69.99 for the pants, compared with $41.91 for the AAFES male shirt/coat and $39.49 for the female shirt/coat. If you choose Vanguard for all the components of your golf shirt uniform (shirt, pants, black fleece for cold weather, and boots), that's roughly $51 cheaper than a full ABU kit, but not exactly cheap at $295.35.
Although this thread is about OCPs, it's worth talking about prices on other uniforms. Where it really gets breathtaking is when buying USAF-style blues. Vanguard wants $64.80 for the long-sleeved uniform shirt, versus $28.75 for the DLATS version at AAFES. You can go out and buy them commercially for $49.99 (still $14.81 cheaper than Vanguard). Female blues trousers are $37.00 through AAFES and $66.30 through Vanguard. Commercially I found them for $49.99.
Blues covers are also much more expensive, although here Vanguard beats other online commercial sources. AAFES will sell me a flight cap for $13.75; the same item on Vanguard is $10.10 more at $23.85, and $29.99 commercially.
That simple blue web belt with a silver buckle? AAFES wants $4.18 -- Vanguard is close to six times more expensive, at $25. Commercially that same belt is $19.19.
Overall, Vanguard's USAF Blues Uniform for males is $98.33 more than you could get at AAFES, and for females Vanguard is $109.01 more than AAFES. Compared with commercially available blues components, Vanguard beats other suppliers for male uniforms -- by $42.75 for a full kit with a short-sleeved shirt, and by $36.15 for a long-sleeved version -- but commercial suppliers other than Vanguard are better for female blues uniforms, with Vanguard $20.65 more than commercial for a complete female set with short sleeves.
My takeaways from shopping day today? 1 - If we had decent, non-roadblocked access to AAFES, OCPs would be as much as $53.83 cheaper than the present Vanguard-only ABU uniform for a full set, and Blues would be about $100 cheaper depending on gender, and; 2 - our leadership really should work much harder on knocking down the barriers to members using AAFES to buy appropriate uniform items. (And I'm uninterested in all the reasons why it's hard. Yes, it's hard. I know it's hard. And I know all the reasons why it's hard. So what? It's not impossible, just hard.)
Quote from: ProdigalJim on June 02, 2024, 10:11:06 PMJust as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.
A complete male OCP uniform, using DLATS components from AAFES, would cost $292.47. A complete Vanguard ABU uniform today is $346.30. If you go to commercial sources for OCPs, it's considerably more expensive than AAFES (which is unsurprising): $69.99 for the shirt/coat, and $69.99 for the pants, compared with $41.91 for the AAFES male shirt/coat and $39.49 for the female shirt/coat. If you choose Vanguard for all the components of your golf shirt uniform (shirt, pants, black fleece for cold weather, and boots), that's roughly $51 cheaper than a full ABU kit, but not exactly cheap at $295.35.
Although this thread is about OCPs, it's worth talking about prices on other uniforms. Where it really gets breathtaking is when buying USAF-style blues. Vanguard wants $64.80 for the long-sleeved uniform shirt, versus $28.75 for the DLATS version at AAFES. You can go out and buy them commercially for $49.99 (still $14.81 cheaper than Vanguard). Female blues trousers are $37.00 through AAFES and $66.30 through Vanguard. Commercially I found them for $49.99.
Blues covers are also much more expensive, although here Vanguard beats other online commercial sources. AAFES will sell me a flight cap for $13.75; the same item on Vanguard is $10.10 more at $23.85, and $29.99 commercially.
That simple blue web belt with a silver buckle? AAFES wants $4.18 -- Vanguard is close to six times more expensive, at $25. Commercially that same belt is $19.19.
Overall, Vanguard's USAF Blues Uniform for males is $98.33 more than you could get at AAFES, and for females Vanguard is $109.01 more than AAFES. Compared with commercially available blues components, Vanguard beats other suppliers for male uniforms -- by $42.75 for a full kit with a short-sleeved shirt, and by $36.15 for a long-sleeved version -- but commercial suppliers other than Vanguard are better for female blues uniforms, with Vanguard $20.65 more than commercial for a complete female set with short sleeves.
My takeaways from shopping day today? 1 - If we had decent, non-roadblocked access to AAFES, OCPs would be as much as $53.83 cheaper than the present Vanguard-only ABU uniform for a full set, and Blues would be about $100 cheaper depending on gender, and; 2 - our leadership really should work much harder on knocking down the barriers to members using AAFES to buy appropriate uniform items. (And I'm uninterested in all the reasons why it's hard. Yes, it's hard. I know it's hard. And I know all the reasons why it's hard. So what? It's not impossible, just hard.)
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/WrXfoyksKacAAAAd/yes-slow-clap.gif)
Thank you, Sir!!!!
Quote from: ProdigalJim on June 02, 2024, 10:11:06 PMJust as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.
<snippage happens here>
Speedy, you're talking my lingo.
Unfortunately for Vanguard, they have no access to the DLATs "issue" grade shirts and instead have to resell the "commerical upgrade" shirts (ie. Brooks Brothers) that are also sold thru AAFES. And they have a markup, because, you know, they're a business and do need to make a profit. They don't buy as many shirts as AAFES, so they don't get the super good discount from the vendor to pass along. :)
This is a long time, ongoing issue as BRAC was a thing and USAF bases disappeared in states. Suddenly its hundreds of miles instead of dozens of miles to get to an AAFES.
Even if you can get on base.
Quote from: NIN on June 02, 2024, 11:56:55 PMSpeedy, you're talking my lingo.
Unfortunately for Vanguard, they have no access to the DLATs "issue" grade shirts and instead have to resell the "commerical upgrade" shirts (ie. Brooks Brothers) that are also sold thru AAFES. And they have a markup, because, you know, they're a business and do need to make a profit. They don't buy as many shirts as AAFES, so they don't get the super good discount from the vendor to pass along. :)
This is a long time, ongoing issue as BRAC was a thing and USAF bases disappeared in states. Suddenly its hundreds of miles instead of dozens of miles to get to an AAFES. Even if you can get on base.
Well, the Coast Guard, and the Coast Guard Auxiliary seemed to have figured it out. Now their version of the AAFES, the Uniform Distrobusion Center, will accept orders directly from an Auxiliarist and ship straight to their home of record, and you never have to set foot on a base.
You just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go. You can order and pay for any uniform item authorized for use by the USCGAux. Clearly, they won't let you buy a set of 4-Star USCG Admiral's Shoulder Boards, but standard uniforms, boots, shoes, etc. you can buy all day.
Something similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word,
hard, but not impossible.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on June 03, 2024, 02:38:51 AMWell, the Coast Guard, and the Coast Guard Auxiliary seemed to have figured it out. Now their version of the AAFES, the Uniform Distrobusion Center, will accept orders directly from an Auxiliarist and ship straight to their home of record, and you never have to set foot on a base.
You just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go. You can order and pay for any uniform item authorized for use by the USCGAux. Clearly, they won't let you buy a set of 4-Star USCG Admiral's Shoulder Boards, but standard uniforms, boots, shoes, etc. you can buy all day.
Something similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word, hard, but not impossible.
CGAUX ID card gets you on base (theoretically) just as a normal DODID would.
Theoretically. But you'll run into that one E3 or E6 who just doesn't know any better and get held up.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on June 03, 2024, 02:38:51 AMYou just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go.
Perhaps RiverAux can chime in, but perhaps this is because the USCG Aux is
an actual part of the Coast Guard while the Civil Air Patrol Inc. is a not-for-profit corporation that is in no way "part" of the Air Force. Affiliated, sure, but not a part of.
QuoteSomething similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word, hard, but not impossible.
You're talking about getting at least two, if not three separate bureaucracies (which we have zero influence over) to change their processes for no benefit to them. That may in fact be the definition of impossible.
QuoteYou're talking about getting at least two, if not three separate bureaucracies (which we have zero influence over) to change their processes for no benefit to them. That may in fact be the definition of impossible
I assume your three are CAP, USAF and AAFES?
CAP and USAF would see the benefits quickly.
AAFES would see an increase in sales.
It's not that hard.
AAFES works for the Army and Air Force, they will do what the Services tell them to do.
The simplest way forward is to come with a way for a AAFES to have limited access to CAP eServices so they can verify current CAP membership status.
So we set up a CAP only 1+800 order number at AAFES. CAP member calls, Customer Service verifies their status, and the CAP member can then order general uniform pieces (i.e. OCP tops, bottoms, hats, boots, brown t-shirts, OCP cold/wet weather coats, etc.) and Blue Service and Blue Mess uniform pieces. No USAF rank insignia, badges or anything the USAF says CAP members can't purchase. Customer Service takes the order, takes the CAP members' credit/debit card info and the order is shipped.
Or automate the system with a special AAFES/CAP only website in which the Member's status is verified and the things that CAP can buy are the only things offered on the site, so no General's 4-Star Shoulder boards or Silver Star Medals will be offered but all the uniform pieces will be.
Then go to Vanguard and order the CAP only insignia and awards.
Vanguard can continue to sell the bling going forward and any uniform pieces they still have in stock until exhausted.
I can come up with the plan in ten minutes sitting in front of my computer, surely the Feild Grade Officers at CAP and the USAF and the front office management at AAFES can make it work.
Remember, like 17 years ago, when I proposed one uniform for all? Those were good times.
Check it out. (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0) [darn], I think there's a few people in that thread that we uncovered as phonies and/or are in jail now. And of course, a couple may be RIP.
I remember that thread. Was a nice throwback to the pre-BDU era too.
Maybe fewer uniforms would mean more would wear them correctly?
Yeah, I'll show myself out now.
Quote from: Stonewall on June 05, 2024, 02:53:55 PMRemember, like 17 years ago, when I proposed one uniform for all? Those were good times.
Check it out. (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0) [darn], I think there's a few people in that thread that we uncovered as phonies and/or are in jail now. And of course, a couple may be RIP.
Hey, thanks Stonewall, it was you I was referencing in my 31MAY24 Post about an OD Uniform.
I like the all blue BDU concept some have proposed. But I'd say go a step further because there are so many commercially available options that we can make our own. There are those who say go back to the OD's too. That's a great option. Mix it up a bit maybe. OD Green top, Blue trousers so that we are a little more identifiable and distinctive. It doesn't have to be BDU style either. they make Green shirts/BDU Blouses there are many different combinations depending on your mission.
We need something that we have a little more control over and can make changes without all the regulatory hurdles around the USAF style uniforms. That being said, this is for utility/work uniforms only. I think to stick to our heritage and roots our dress uniform should still be the USAF Blues.
Quote from: SARDOC on June 17, 2024, 11:11:07 PMWe need something that we have a little more control over and can make changes without all the regulatory hurdles around the USAF style uniforms. That being said, this is for utility/work uniforms only. I think to stick to our heritage and roots our dress uniform should still be the USAF Blues.
Agreed. I understand both sides of the argument on OCP or do our own thing etc.. and at risk of beating a horse that is nothing but bones at this point, I lean more and more to doing our own thing when it comes to utility. Not only should we be considering practicality, but also interoperability. Anecdotal but I have had partner agencies say how weird it is that we have people showing up in different uniforms. They get confused if we are all one organization. One entertaining yet eye opening conversation was explaining what CAP is to a fire department chief during a joint exercise as we were using their facility for Mission Base and staging. He asked if the people in ABUs were Air Force Auxiliary and the polos shirts and BBDU folks were CAP. Great opportunity to explain more about CAP and its history etc.. but also let me see how CAP is being viewed from a lens outside the organization. Should other organizations dictate our uniforms? No, but i think a bit more uniformity in our..... uniforms could go a long way in how we present ourselves to agencies.
It sounds like OCPs are on the move and just awaiting the powers for final approval and an implementation schedule. I wont complain about that either. Whatever works. I think overall I'd just like to see us all in 1 utility uniform. Whatever that looks like. If thats OCPs awesome, if not... as long as its professional and comfortable I'm game.
This was posted by a CAP-USAF DAF Civilian on another forum today with the caption "My CAP opposite numbers got approved for OCP uniform this week! (kind of aviation related)" BIG if true!
(https://www.airwarriors.com/community/attachments/1724518214562-png.41033/)
Edit: I don't know why the image isn't appearing but here is a link to the thread: https://www.airwarriors.com/community/threads/random-griz-aviation-musings.46266/page-281#post-1130328
QuoteI don't know why the image isn't appearing
It's because the image is password protected on the forum you are trying to link to.
Might be better if you download the image, save it and re-post it here.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on August 25, 2024, 07:18:55 PMQuoteI don't know why the image isn't appearing
It's because the image is password protected on the forum you are trying to link to.
Might be better if you download the image, save it and re-post it here.
Can I upload pictures here? I don't use social media so I can't do the image link thing. I'm a luddite.😁
Here is a higher resolution version of the image being discussed.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZXF28z9.jpg)
Okay, so if this is legitimate, trust but verify, I like it for the most part. Probably no word on boot color? Hat rank, sew-on or pin-on insignia? I assume white on blue name tape on hat back?
Also, what is the patch above the Wing Patch on the left sleeve?
Quick Edit, Disregard the patch question, I just read the small print, It's the "USAF AUX" patch; which is a fair and acceptable compromise by the USAF to allow us to wear the uniform. As soon as that patch is made available, I'll be ready to put it on. That's the great thing about Velcro, so easy to switch between Service uniforms.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on August 26, 2024, 05:11:42 PMQuick Edit, Disregard the patch question, I just read the small print, It's the "USAF AUX" patch; which is a fair and acceptable compromise by the USAF to allow us to wear the uniform. As soon as that patch is made available, I'll be ready to put it on. That's the great thing about Velcro, so easy to switch between Service uniforms.
I thought that you wear only the Polo because it's the only CAP uniform you need.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 24, 2024, 05:41:58 PMThis was posted by a CAP-USAF DAF Civilian on another forum today with the caption "My CAP opposite numbers got approved for OCP uniform this week! (kind of aviation related)" BIG if true!
(https://www.airwarriors.com/community/attachments/1724518214562-png.41033/)
Edit: I don't know why the image isn't appearing but here is a link to the thread: https://www.airwarriors.com/community/threads/random-griz-aviation-musings.46266/page-281#post-1130328
VERY interesting. Looking at the post made by said CAP/USAF Civilian they also mentioned OD Green shirt and coyote boots. I'm cautiously optimistic on that. Hope said source is credible. the USAF AUX identifier patch is also interesting. That would identify us quicker than any other method we've used.
Quote from: PHall on August 26, 2024, 06:13:38 PMI thought that you wear only the Polo because it's the only CAP uniform you need.
I will simply peel the cammo NAME and US ARMY tapes, rank and unit patch off my
current Army uniform and take my white on blue tapes and blank rank square from my Black CAP Fleece and my wing patch from my blue flight jacket and apply them when I go to the field in CAP. I don't need to buy anything. ;)
And, yes, for the most part, the polo suits me just fine, but I might just wear OCPs, but I'm not going to buy ABUs, ever, and right now I have no need for BBDUs. I am saving up for a blue flightsuit, I would like to try being Air Crew someday, time permitting.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on August 26, 2024, 10:56:34 PMQuote from: PHall on August 26, 2024, 06:13:38 PMI thought that you wear only the Polo because it's the only CAP uniform you need.
I will simply peel the cammo NAME and US ARMY tapes, rank and unit patch off my current Army uniform and take my white on blue tapes and blank rank square from my Black CAP Fleece and my wing patch from my blue flight jacket and apply them when I go to the field in CAP. I don't need to buy anything. ;)
And, yes, for the most part, the polo suits me just fine, but I might just wear OCPs, but I'm not going to buy ABUs, ever, and right now I have no need for BBDUs. I am saving up for a blue flightsuit, I would like to try being Air Crew someday, time permitting.
Many wings allow you to fly in a polo.
Quote from: PHall on August 27, 2024, 04:53:19 AMMany wings allow you to fly in a polo.
That's true but if I'm flying with a Wing that doesn't, I want to be prepared.
My goal is to attend the Scanner and Photographer Course at NESA, but for the last three years it's been right in the middle of my Army Reserve Annual Training, so I haven't been able to attend. I know it's needed for the graduation ceremony at the very least.
There are wings that force you to wear the bag while flying? That's....silly.
The image is legitimate, and one of a very in-depth series that were submitted to the NUC last week. It's still only draft, and at least one change has been made to patches since that image was created last week.
Brown boots are the most likely final result we are going with. The guy who posted the image on that forum said "OD green undershirt" when he meant "Tan 499" like Army and AF wear.
Biggest hold-up recently has been distinctiveness, which we think we've finally figured out. Most likely thing we're going with is a slight change to rank insignia for OCPs to be more akin to the CGAUX (though not exactly the same), plus the Auxiliary identifier (exact text still TBD) on the left shoulder.
We who have been working on it are hoping this will be made official sooner than later, and that seems to be what's about to happen given the ABU situation. However, this is still draft pending Gen Aye's signature, so don't spend hundreds on a new uniform til it's made official.
Quote"Tan 499"
AKA Coyote Brown. Yes, I know that's not the official nomenclature, but "Coyote" is what nearly everyone calls it.
Truth be told, I have twenty-year-old Brown t-shirts from the BDUs that are still service-able, and faded enough to pass for Coyote, and I wear them all the time, and no one has ever commented on them.
Happy to hear Coyote boots too, many of us will be spending next to nothing to transition to this uniform.
Also, rank patch with "CAP" embroidered under the insignia in white, or on the insignia itself in Red or Blue, is again a very reasonable compromise to allow us to wear this uniform.
Changing insignia is silly. Standard rank insignia on blue cloth was perfectly acceptable with ABU, BDU, FDU, etc. Why is it not enough now?
I can understand the USAF AUX identifier and the blue tapes, I understand the CAP on the goretex tab when there's no additional distinctive devices. Why on earth do we suddenly need more distinctive rank insignia on top of the blue tapes, full color patches and the identifier patch?
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 27, 2024, 09:08:14 PMChanging insignia is silly. Standard rank insignia on blue cloth was perfectly acceptable with ABU, BDU, FDU, etc. Why is it not enough now?
I can understand the USAF AUX identifier and the blue tapes, I understand the CAP on the goretex tab when there's no additional distinctive devices. Why on earth do we suddenly need more distinctive rank insignia on top of the blue tapes, full color patches and the identifier patch?
Per a CAP-USAF Liaison Officer that I work with when wearing my "other" uniform, the Air Force didn't have a problem with the CAP insignia as currently authorized to be used on the new OCP uniform. It was the actually the Space Force that had some concerns. As some of you that have seen their OCP uniform, they have a blue grade insignia (similar to the old AF Blue) and name/branch tape lettering that is nothing like the full color grade insignia on dark blue that CAP wears. However, the Space Force has a new spaceflight duty uniform in development similar to what NASA astronauts have worn in the past, and to go along with all the full color patches on that, they have tentative plans to adopt special full color grade insignia for that uniform as well. Full color on a "dark space blue" background is one of the color variations that is under consideration by the Space Force for that particular duty uniform.
For what it is worth, my source said the Air Force leadership did a bit of pushing back on the Space Force about their Auxiliary already having been previously authorized for this color insignia BEFORE the Space Force contractors looked at what was available off-the-shelf already, so there apparently has been some discussion going on between the Air Force and the Space Force on this subject, and some legislators who are also CAP members have even entered the same discussion. But the Air Force had no problem with our current insignia. It was mainly the Space Force just raising some concerns because they would like to use something nearly identical for some of their officers for one uniform variant that only a few of their officers would wear.
Quote from: skymaster on August 28, 2024, 01:15:40 AMQuote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 27, 2024, 09:08:14 PMChanging insignia is silly. Standard rank insignia on blue cloth was perfectly acceptable with ABU, BDU, FDU, etc. Why is it not enough now?
I can understand the USAF AUX identifier and the blue tapes, I understand the CAP on the goretex tab when there's no additional distinctive devices. Why on earth do we suddenly need more distinctive rank insignia on top of the blue tapes, full color patches and the identifier patch?
Per a CAP-USAF Liaison Officer that I work with when wearing my "other" uniform, the Air Force didn't have a problem with the CAP insignia as currently authorized to be used on the new OCP uniform. It was the actually the Space Force that had some concerns. As some of you that have seen their OCP uniform, they have a blue grade insignia (similar to the old AF Blue) and name/branch tape lettering that is nothing like the full color grade insignia on dark blue that CAP wears. However, the Space Force has a new spaceflight duty uniform in development similar to what NASA astronauts have worn in the past, and to go along with all the full color patches on that, they have tentative plans to adopt special full color grade insignia for that uniform as well. Full color on a "dark space blue" background is one of the color variations that is under consideration by the Space Force for that particular duty uniform.
For what it is worth, my source said the Air Force leadership did a bit of pushing back on the Space Force about their Auxiliary already having been previously authorized for this color insignia BEFORE the Space Force contractors looked at what was available off-the-shelf already, so there apparently has been some discussion going on between the Air Force and the Space Force on this subject, and some legislators who are also CAP members have even entered the same discussion. But the Air Force had no problem with our current insignia. It was mainly the Space Force just raising some concerns because they would like to use something nearly identical for some of their officers for one uniform variant that only a few of their officers would wear.
If that is the case, then good on the AF for pushing back. The OCP as depicted in the image above is more than sufficient for distinctiveness in my opinion. If we cannot be distinguished with that setup, I don't think anything would suffice at that point short of not wearing the uniform at all. Implication from the space force concern would put the entire BBDU uniform in question too would it not? It is nearly identical to the US Coast Guard and they don't seem to be too worried about it, so I think USSF is splitting hairs here.
It strikes me as petulant and childish. "WE'RE A REAL SERVICE TOO! YOU CANT DO THAT, YOU'LL LOOK TOO MUCH LIKE US!"
I'm happy to hear USAF pushed back on it.
Space Force needs to change their officer grade insignia, they might be confused with CAP!
I suggest the pips used on Star Trek The Next Generation.
Or we let the Space force win, they can have the dark blue with full color grade. We go to OCP pattern with full color grade, with white or silver thread for the tapes, full color patches and that USAF AUX left shoulder patch. STILL plenty distinctive. Nah, the image as posted looks good and checks the distinctive box.
On the USAF/AUX identifier or whatever it will end up being; it seems there are a few people in this thread now with some insider knowledge. Curious how the Command Badge will work. Currently serving commanders in USAF wear the badge as per usual on OCPs above the name tape. Graduated commanders from what I've seen wear it on their left sleeve where we would be placing that identifier badge. Someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me on that. I think wear for graduated commanders is optional for USAF Personnel. Its currently mandatory for wear on the ABU. Curious how CAP will navigate that one, if it will become an option item or no longer authorized for wear by graduated CC's due to the identifier tag location?
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 27, 2024, 09:08:14 PMChanging insignia is silly. Standard rank insignia on blue cloth was perfectly acceptable with ABU, BDU, FDU, etc. Why is it not enough now?
I can understand the USAF AUX identifier and the blue tapes, I understand the CAP on the goretex tab when there's no additional distinctive devices. Why on earth do we suddenly need more distinctive rank insignia on top of the blue tapes, full color patches and the identifier patch?
For the most part I agree but let me muddy the waters a little bit.
Here is a picture of the USCG Auxiliary Office Insignia:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/94/6a/e8/946ae80ee85cfcd7878626141a1eeca9.jpg)
For the most part it mirrors USCG Rank but on coat sleeves and shoulder boards it is SILVER whereas USCG is GOLD and the addition of Auxiliary "A" to the USCG Sheild in Blue for elected Office and Red for appointed Office.
When pin-on or embroidered Office insignia is used (i.e. working uniforms, trench coats, ball caps, etc.) it is the same as USCG Rank but with the addition of a blue or red "A".
I would submit to you, that current USAF Rank insignia is large/wide enough to hold an enameled "CAP" in
Red, Blue or Grey on it, vertically on Lieutenants bars and horizontally on all other rank insignia.
CAP NCO Rank already has "CAP" on it. So, no issues there.
If we were to adopt adding "CAP" to our insignia, we could make the case to the USAF to do away with the grey epaulet slides, at least on the Service Coat and trench coat, and
maybe get them to allow a blue slide with embroidered "CAP" over Rank Insignia on the shirts and sweaters.
Every time we get into this dicussion, its "But the USCG Aux does ... this!"
We're not the USCG Aux. We don't have auxiliary status at all times like the USCG Aux does.
There's not a burning need to layer on more insignia, create different pieces of insignia, etc, just to "look more like these other guys." The USCG Aux is one organization with one parent service, we are another with a different parent service and a different legal relationship to them.
I swear you guys are just trying to increase the SKU count at Vanguard. Cut it out.
I see where Joe is going with this, though I don't completely think we need a rank change. Adding CAP along with it for blues i wouldn't mind. After all before we got hit with berry boards we were wearing hard rank and blue slides just like the USAF just with CAP cutouts. Id take it a step further and change the sleeve braid to another color. Not silver or Gold. Maybe a lighter blue or could do something similar to the army officer braid but silver with a red stripe in it.
OCPs I really don't think would need to change at all. Keep as is pictured above. All of it with exception of the the new identifier patch are currently in production, and used across other uniforms. Changing the rank insignia would require it to get changed on ALL other uniforms. That seems excessive just to try and make the USSF happy so again getting back on topic a bit, glad the AF appears to be pushing back on that.
Overall glad to see the move over happening. May be an initial up front cost to some members, a cost savings for others and I think long term is going to save members money especially as OCP surplus grows.
I'll be honest with you all, the reason for the new insignia is moot because they're likely on the way. That being said, and as someone who is REALLY picky about uniforms, they're not bad at all. They're just the Goretex ranks made square, at least in their current draft.
That said, as far as Space Force pushing back on CAP ranks, that is.....not what was told to us when we were given the task to create the insignia.
Quote from: SierraOneThree on August 29, 2024, 01:14:34 AMI'll be honest with you all, the reason for the new insignia is moot because they're likely on the way. That being said, and as someone who is REALLY picky about uniforms, they're not bad at all. They're just the Goretex ranks made square, at least in their current draft.
That said, as far as Space Force pushing back on CAP ranks, that is.....not what was told to us when we were given the task to create the insignia.
Duly noted and it could be a LOT worse. Thanks for the gouge!
I found a website that is selling the Duty Identifier patch for CAP
https://www.reaperpatches.com/products/aux-duty-identifier-patch-blue-backing
I tried to put a picture of it on here, but was unsuccessful -sorry
I got it as an attachment, I can't figure out how to post the picture in the message box though
Quote from: tom22 on August 29, 2024, 10:18:22 PMI found a website that is selling the Duty Identifier patch for CAP
https://www.reaperpatches.com/products/aux-duty-identifier-patch-blue-backing
I tried to put a picture of it on here, but was unsuccessful -sorry
lol added today
ok who was it?
Quote from: SierraOneThree on August 30, 2024, 12:56:13 AMlol added today
ok who was it?
Wasn't me. :)
(But my shipping notification says next Thursday...)
Their command patch is way nicer than VG too. Ordered...
Quote from: NIN on August 30, 2024, 01:08:38 PMQuote from: SierraOneThree on August 30, 2024, 12:56:13 AMlol added today
ok who was it?
Wasn't me. :) (But my shipping notification says next Thursday...)
We'll see, Reaper takes a lot of time if they have to manufacture the patches.
Mine are on the way as well. ;)
Quote from: SierraOneThree on August 29, 2024, 01:14:34 AMI'll be honest with you all, the reason for the new insignia is moot because they're likely on the way. That being said, and as someone who is REALLY picky about uniforms, they're not bad at all. They're just the Goretex ranks made square, at least in their current draft.
That said, as far as Space Force pushing back on CAP ranks, that is.....not what was told to us when we were given the task to create the insignia.
So basically this:
(https://www.vanguardmil.com/cdn/shop/products/cap6301_1024x1024.jpg?v=1469795616)
on the center chest rank patch, correct?
Which is absolutely acceptable in order to wear the OCP uniform.
Silly question, I know Flight Officers are few and far between but why is it Vanguard only has sewn on Flight Officer Rank? No Pin-Ons for caps, no Velcro and no Gortex slides. They are supposed to be our sole supplier, yet they never have Flight Officer stuff for the few that need it.
My guess is economy of scale. Easy enough to stitch a sew on rank onto a blank slide or cap. The one FO I had in my squadron was an FO for less than a year and I don't think he ever wore a uniform other than a polo in that time.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 30, 2024, 09:03:31 PMMy guess is economy of scale. Easy enough to stitch a sew on rank onto a blank slide or cap. The one FO I had in my squadron was an FO for less than a year and I don't think he ever wore a uniform other than a polo in that time.
That's the whole point of the contract with Vanguard. For exclusivity and higher prices, they are supposed to produce
all of our insignia, even the less popular ones.
Point taken. I guess it might be a situation like PopCopy. (For any Chappelle fans out there)
Quote from: Fubar on August 31, 2024, 02:07:42 AMQuote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on August 30, 2024, 09:03:31 PMMy guess is economy of scale. Easy enough to stitch a sew on rank onto a blank slide or cap. The one FO I had in my squadron was an FO for less than a year and I don't think he ever wore a uniform other than a polo in that time.
That's the whole point of the contract with Vanguard. For exclusivity and higher prices, they are supposed to produce all of our insignia, even the less popular ones.
It's not Vanguards fault if CAP declines to enforce their contract.
Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2024, 02:30:59 PMIt's not Vanguards fault if CAP declines to enforce their contract.
Quite true. NHQ seems to worry about upsetting Vanguard, the reverse of most vendor/client relationships.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on August 30, 2024, 06:10:12 PMSilly question, I know Flight Officers are few and far between but why is it Vanguard only has sewn on Flight Officer Rank? No Pin-Ons for caps, no Velcro and no Gortex slides. They are supposed to be our sole supplier, yet they never have Flight Officer stuff for the few that need it.
Silly answer, have you called them to see if they have them in stock? There are a number of CAP items that they carry but don't list on their website because they only sell 1 a year, or less, such as the Cadet COP ribbon.
Quote from: SierraOneThree on August 30, 2024, 03:51:24 PMWe'll see, Reaper takes a lot of time if they have to manufacture the patches.
You were right about that; I ordered mine on 30AUG2024 and they arrived Saturday (19OCT2024).
That being said, really high-quality patch, looks like they last a VERY long time.
Ready to Rock, when the Regulation drops! 8)
CAP OCP.pdf
Quote from: Shuman 14 on October 23, 2024, 12:06:12 AMReady to Rock, when the Regulation drops! 8)
CAP OCP.pdf
I've seen a number of people with theirs set up and ready to go. Will post pics when I'm back at my computer.
These are a few setups from people who have been waiting for the official notification. Of course, everyone really does understand the risks with doing this, there will likely be changes, like the rank tab for Seniors, will there be a "CAP" above the rank or not?
Either way, it's fun and obviously many are excited, and rightfully so.
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/rpiil2t2s9042nfk6260vo26grc9m0ub.jpeg)
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/7m0k0ia4s71p4bauitmnfga5kuu04jfg.jpeg)
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/q93gik8x7072y29ab8t0fohn34bunyhc.jpeg)
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/wuwyygrotmmslac7uv8d1kjqhu6nysub.jpeg)
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/sm3tanb6zubfsycgsvcq927fhj31x6jm.png)
Quote from: Stonewall on October 23, 2024, 03:59:59 PMThese are a few setups from people who have been waiting for the official notification. Of course, everyone really does understand the risks with doing this, there will likely be changes, like the rank tab for Seniors, will there be a "CAP" above the rank or not?
Either way, it's fun and obviously many are excited, and rightfully so.
Very cool.
So my question is, based on the pictures you posted, do I have my Wing Patch in the wrong Place?
As I read DAFI36-2903 29 FEBRUARY 2024 (https://www.afpc.af.mil/Portals/70/documents/DRESS%20AND%20APPEARANCE/dafi36-2903%20(29Feb24).pdf), this is the placement of Patches, from top to bottom:
Right SleeveThe U.S. Flag Patch
Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch (Squadron Patch?)
Left Sleeve Career Field Identifier Patch (AUX Patch)
Graduated Commander's Badge Patch (if authorized)
Joint Qualification Tabs (i.e. Special Forces, Ranger, Sapper, Sniper, Etc., if authorized)
Higher Headquarters Patch (Wing Patch?)
So, is the CAP Command Patch the Higher Headquarters Patch, and the Wing Patch is the Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch?
ORIs the Wing Patch the Higher Headquarters Patch and the Squadron Patch the Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch?
I made the best guess that the Wing patch is the Higher Headquarters, but after seeing your posted pictures, I'm not sure. ???
The good thing is, if any of us are wrong, and someone will be, it's just velcro.
I'm looking at one of the draft images (probably 6+ months old) that shows a cadet OCP uniform where it says, "model rocketry patch on left sleeve" and "unit patch on right sleeve".
I am very confident it won't be limited to model rocketry patches, but more like "patch of member's choice" such as NCSA, model rocketry, first aid, etc. Obviously, TBD.
In the AF, we wear our command patch on the left sleeve and unit patch on the right. But of course, there are lots of options. Like an AF firefighter can wear the fire protection patch (the one that looks like a badge) on one of the sleeves. I can't even remember.
Again, CAP will be MoreMilitaryThanTheMilitary™ like it always is. If you walked onto my base at work, you'd see at least 20 different configurations, many of which aren't authorized, but no one really cares.
Like I said, it's velcro, so whatever the reg ends up saying, it's an easy switch.
It seems the USAF doesn't want any badges or patches on the OCP breast pockets, which means the Missile Badge and SF Badge and Firefighter Badge has to go someplace else other than the breast pockets.
In the Army, lots of badges go on the breast pockets (i.e. Drill Sergeant, Instructor, Tomb Guard, Recruiter, IG, Army Staff, Etc.), but different strokes for different Services.
But your absolutely right, VELCRO is a wonderful thing. ;)
Quote from: Shuman 14 on October 25, 2024, 07:07:29 PMIt seems the USAF doesn't want any badges or patches on the OCP breast pockets, which means the Missile Badge and SF Badge and Firefighter Badge has to go someplace else other than the breast pockets.
This was the reason for Identifier patches, was supposed to be for key careers such as Fire Department and Security Forces to quickly "identify" them but now everyone and their mother has these so it kind of defeats the initial point.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on October 25, 2024, 06:35:44 PMQuote from: Stonewall on October 23, 2024, 03:59:59 PMThese are a few setups from people who have been waiting for the official notification. Of course, everyone really does understand the risks with doing this, there will likely be changes, like the rank tab for Seniors, will there be a "CAP" above the rank or not?
Either way, it's fun and obviously many are excited, and rightfully so.
Very cool.
So my question is, based on the pictures you posted, do I have my Wing Patch in the wrong Place?
As I read DAFI36-2903 29 FEBRUARY 2024 (https://www.afpc.af.mil/Portals/70/documents/DRESS%20AND%20APPEARANCE/dafi36-2903%20(29Feb24).pdf), this is the placement of Patches, from top to bottom:
Right Sleeve
The U.S. Flag Patch
Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch (Squadron Patch?)
Left Sleeve
Career Field Identifier Patch (AUX Patch)
Graduated Commander's Badge Patch (if authorized)
Joint Qualification Tabs (i.e. Special Forces, Ranger, Sapper, Sniper, Etc., if authorized)
Higher Headquarters Patch (Wing Patch?)
So, is the CAP Command Patch the Higher Headquarters Patch, and the Wing Patch is the Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch?
OR
Is the Wing Patch the Higher Headquarters Patch and the Squadron Patch the Organizational Unit of Assignment Patch?
I made the best guess that the Wing patch is the Higher Headquarters, but after seeing your posted pictures, I'm not sure. ???
In the Air Force, the command patch/MAJCOM is on the wearer's left and the Squadron is on the right of the OCP's.
So if CAP does it like the ABU's, I could see the State Wing patch on wearer's left with the AUX identifier above it. Then on the right sleeve would be Squadron or other patches.
Just stirring the pot...
Has anyone heard anything further on OCPs? Seems crazy that we are still in ABUs at this point. I'm getting retiring/discharging Soldiers giving me their service-able OCPS to donate to CAP. So the "shortage" seems to be over.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 20, 2025, 04:53:40 PMJust stirring the pot...
Has anyone heard anything further on OCPs? Seems crazy that we are still in ABUs at this point. I'm getting retiring/discharging Soldiers giving me their service-able OCPS to donate to CAP. So the "shortage" seems to be over.
The "shortage" was over five years ago.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 20, 2025, 04:53:40 PMJust stirring the pot...
Has anyone heard anything further on OCPs? Seems crazy that we are still in ABUs at this point. I'm getting retiring/discharging Soldiers giving me their service-able OCPS to donate to CAP. So the "shortage" seems to be over.
There was a mention of them in the third video: https://www.capnhq.gov/V3/CommanderUpdates.
Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 21, 2025, 10:25:13 AMThere was a mention of them in the third video: https://www.capnhq.gov/V3/CommanderUpdates.
Thank you for the link, missed this somehow.
So, CAPHQ says it did its job and submitted the request to the USAF and the Pentagon, and we are awaiting their response for APPROVAL, DENIAL, or further questions/concerns. I appreciate her transparency in stating this on a format that everyone in CAP can see and hear.
So, we hurry up and wait. Somethings, be it Military or CAP, never change.
The only thing I would like to see going forward is the proposal they sent to the USAF and DOD, just to understand what CAP leadership thought was the best idea for the CAP version of the OCP uniform. What I'm getting at is:
Full Color vs Subdued Tapes, Ranks, Badges, Patches
Coyote vs Black boots
Coyote vs Black T-shirts
AUX Identifier Patch
Breast Pocket Patches vs no Breast Pocket Patches
"CAP" on Rank Patch vs Just Rank on Patch
etc.
So, if something changes from the ABU and/or BDU versions, which we have become accustomed to, we know if it was someone within CAP that made the recommendation, or if it was a USAF or DOD change that was directed.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 22, 2025, 04:31:24 PM-=
The only thing I would like to see going forward is the proposal they sent to the USAF and DOD, just to understand what CAP leadership thought was the best idea for the CAP version of the OCP uniform. What I'm getting at is:
I understand your interest, but CAP leaders have learned the hard way more than once that once you publish anything uniform related, even in draft, lots of uber passionate uniform fans will treat it as law.
QuoteSo, if something changes from the ABU and/or BDU versions, which we have become accustomed to, we know if it was someone within CAP that made the recommendation, or if it was a USAF or DOD change that was directed.
On this one, I'm not following your interest. Why does it matter who wants the changes? At the end of the day, we get what we get.
QuoteOn this one, I'm not following your interest. Why does it matter who wants the changes? At the end of the day, we get what we get.
I guess its like asking Mom or Dad, USAF being Dad. Meaning DAD is usually more hardline and if he says No, it means No, whereas Mom is sometimes open to a discussion and might say Yes if it is explained to her.
Also, if its a "Good Idea" Faery, where to direct the bug spray at. ;)