Good Evening To All,
We have some people that want to start a horse patrol within our squadron. I have not been able to find any Wings or Units that have something like this. Does anybody have any experience with this sort of thing? Or know where I might look for information?
TIA
Just be prepared for the need of reg GT's along with Mounted GT's. as far as Training, searches are similar, but definitely needs practice.
I assume you know that horses are expensive.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 06, 2007, 04:09:57 AM
Just be prepared for the need of reg GT's along with Mounted GT's. as far as Training, searches are similar, but definitely needs practice.
I assume you know that horses are expensive.
I had always assumed that these mounted patrols were analogous to "member owned aircraft." They provide their own mount...don't know about insurance.
Well, this will give them a chance to sow their own oats. >:D
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 06, 2007, 04:23:46 AManalogous to "member owned aircraft." They provide their own mount..
So. . . member owned horsecraft ;)
I knew of a CAP member and horse owner who once submitted a CAPF 108 with the cost of hay as a fuel expense. The finance section at wing saw no humor in it.
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Now, in answer to the original question:
A search of the unit listings at the MSAR (Mounted SAR) website (http://www.ibiblio.org/msar/) found two CAP squadrons listed as having a mounted unit. The links for both are dead, and the wing websites don't show links for these squadrons, either, though both are active squadrons.
****Haakon County Civil Air Patrol 53rd (Philip) Mounted Patrol, South Dakota
****Oklahoma County Civil Air Patrol Oklahoma City Composite Squadron (KnightRiders Mounted Ground Team)
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On the MSAR website are links to subscribe to two listers: MSAR-Riders and MSAR-ASTM.
MSAR-Riders is a general forum on MSAR. You might want to subscribe to that and post your question. There is an old message (2004):
"I'm anxious to get started on the NASAR Cert. for my Mounted CAP unit. Ive got a start on several more CAP Mounted units throughout the country...
Mike Dillard, Capt., CAP
OK113 KnightRiders, Cdr.
The MSAR-ASTM lister is for persons interested in working on ASTM standards for mounted SAR. You have to be a glutton for punishment or really interested in MSAR standards to subscribe. I know because I'm the chairman of the ASTM sub-committee that the MSAR standards fall under.
Mike
Does anyone remember the old 'welcome to CAP video' that showed the Patrol (I should TM 'the Patrol') doing searches on horseback...it showed a downed aircraft and in '50s era fashion said something along the lines of "John and Timmy need help, what shall they do!? Wait, what's that coming over the hill!? Its the Civil Air Patrol! That was a good video!
Sorry, kind of off topic, but this thread made me think of it, and I really have nothing to add...
About 10 years ago, a few folks in our Wing were interested in starting one. They checked with National, and found that there were no prohibitions against it.
In the end, the effort fizzled because.
1. You had to own your own horse. And trailer to move it in. And truck to pull the trailer.
2. There really wasn't that much call for horse based SAR.
But if you're out in the boonies, you may have more luck.
The Philip Composite Squadron in South Dakota is "Home of the 53rd Mounted Patrol." The website is active, but I had to turn off pop-up blockers and my software firewall to view it. >:(
53rd Mounted Patrol (http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/philip/53rdmp.html)
Philip Composite Squadron Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/philip/)
Here's a link to an article at CAP News Online at NHQ about the Bowie Composite Squadron's Mounted Horse Search and Rescue Team in Maryland. The article is dated 2004. My MSAR contacts in Maryland aren't aware of this unit, and I didn't find any mention of it on the squadron website, so perhaps the MSAR component has folded.
Bowie Composite Squadron Mounted SAR (http://tinyurl.com/3cyeft)
Bowie Composite Squadron Homepage (http://www.bowiecap.org/default.php)
The mounted squadron in Oklahoma did apparently disband. Here is an article written in 2003 about it.
Oklahoma City Composite Squadron Mounted Unit (http://www.bohicaproductions.com/okwg/MGT.pdf)
There was a mounted CAP unit in North Carolina at one time. Probably kaput.
The MSAR board administrator has received MSAR inquiries from CAP units in Iowa and Kansas. I'll PM the contact information to those interested.
Mike
Nevada had a mounted unit at one time. There is now a Jeep squadron.
Although we did not have the mounted unit during our participation in the Columbia Shuttle parts search, we did have a mounted GTM looking in the higher ground areas where it would have taken a foot GTM much longer to arrive.
It can be done if there is enough interest.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 06, 2007, 05:43:53 PM
Does anyone remember the old 'welcome to CAP video' that showed the Patrol (I should TM 'the Patrol') doing searches on horseback...it showed a downed aircraft and in '50s era fashion said something along the lines of "John and Timmy need help, what shall they do!? Wait, what's that coming over the hill!? Its the Civil Air Patrol! That was a good video!
Sorry, kind of off topic, but this thread made me think of it, and I really have nothing to add...
The AF created that one and used the horse scene from it in a 1972 update. You can order it on-line from the Defense Visualization Repository office of some sort. I saw the site once........
Lt COLGAN here knows more about it. He directed me too it. The CD's and Pictures you can order are free and there is a wealth of knowledge there. Videos like how to conduct a military briefing to videos on CAP search and Rescue stuff. It is really neat!
Hi all, I am new to CAP talk, but I had to jump in when the mounted SAR unit was brought up. Yes, we are trying (okay, I am trying) to get a mounted unit available for Iowa to add to our 'bag of tools' for use in Search & Rescue. There are times when the extra abilities offered by a good mounted team can add to the SAR effort. Until we have enough safe, good mounted members, we are limited to adding the available horse/rider teams to augment a ground team.
In Iowa, I don't expect horse/rider teams to be needed or necessary very often. Much of the state is cultivated, roads are generally nearby, and so far, many of our missing person searches are in areas where a horse/rider team would NOT have been needed or an asset. BUT, there are areas where it would be useful, and that is what I plan to prepare for.
IMHO, any mounted SAR person should first be well versed as a ground team member, you aren't going to stay on that horse non-stop, and the theory and techniques are the basis for any search. And any horse had better be VERY well trained, so the combination can be an asset, not a hazard.
I did do some searching for other wings that had mounted units, contacted some, nobody got back with me with any information. So I am assuming that either there is no interest in sharing information or there is no activity with Mounted SAR in CAP there.
The online MSAR list with NASAR is a good source of information, there are some 'sheriff's posses" that do some mounted SAR basics training seminars and clinics.
And yes, it is definitely a "POV" when it comes to use. I am donating the skills and talents of myself and my horses (that I have personally trained) when it comes to any SAR missions. Which have so far not needed and horse assets....
When I was on the Space shuttle crash mission ( and where the hell is my "space find" ribbon!) The Nevada Wing had a horse on scene. We called him "Caphorse 1" although the elderly senior member objected, we told him the horse had a callsign of his own....
The horse was much happier walking up and down rocky hills than the juvenile detainees that were on loan to us!
Capt. Lord
CAPR 60-3
Quote1-28. Technical or Specialized Operations. CAP often recruits personnel with specialized training or expertise that can be useful on emergency services missions. Though the training required to specialize in these areas is often too cost prohibitive or risky for most personnel to undertake, CAP can still utilize these resources.
a. CAP personnel with specialized training earned outside of CAP who would like to make these services available to CAP on missions will receive FTCA and FECA coverage just like any other member. Any additional liability coverage required to exercise these privileges is at the expense of the member. CAP personnel choosing to train to be useful in technical areas do so at their own risk.
b. Members wishing to utilize the training they have earned must have prior permission of the wing or region commander in writing outlining the limitations of its use. A copy of each letter of permission for these personnel will be faxed to the National Operations Center at (334) 953-4242 prior to these personnel being utilized operationally. Background training and documentation will be kept at the wing for each person given a letter of permission for these specialized operations.
c. Any special equipment or resources required for these personnel to exercise their privileges are furnished at their own expense and risk.
d. The following technical or specialized operations are considered acceptable and reasonable at present, but still require prior written approval:
1) High Angle or Mountain Rescue
2) Canine Search and Rescue
3) Mounted Search and Rescue
4) Radiological Monitoring
5) Urban Search and Rescue
Just be sure to get the prior written approval for the unit...
Thanks for that regulations quote! I am grateful that there are well versed people on this chat that can point those of us that don't know the regs so well in the right direction!
Hmmm, now that means I have to do more paperwork. Ah yes, document, document, document...if it isn't written down, it does not exist! :)
Are you going to try getting GTMs trained with horses in the near future? A 1 Horse GT could really only be used for little, such as checking fence rows and barrow pits, etc.
Thank you all for your responses.
sardak - I too found the 53rd Mounted Patrol and sent a letter to the squadron commander. But haven't heard back
RiverAux - Thank you for that part of the regulation.
RogueLeader - It is a group of horsepeople that want to join our squadron. They offered their services to the local SAR unit but they didn't want to bother with them.
I like the idea of a CAP mounted team, but they are very difficult to set up and maintain. There are many reasons for this:
1) They are not a CAP owned asset. The individuals involved must use there own horses and anyone who has owned a horse knows they can be expensive. Not to mention the trailers, the trucks to pull them, the equipment, etc.
2) You have to have enough people to keep up the team and have it available for missions. Ground teams must have at least four members for a mission. That means you have to have at least four mounted team members to have a team. Realistically, you would have to have more than that to allow for those unable to make a mission, for whatever reason.
3) Transportation is more difficult. It is much easier to load a typical ground team into a vehicle than it is a mounted team. (Loading the horses, etc.)
4) Even if you have the team available, they work best in more remote areas. That means places that are not within a few miles of a road. Let's face it, when a team is doing their job right, they should minimize the time they are actually walking. It's much better to use the greater speed of the vehicles to narrow down the search area first.
If it is an outside group wanting to come in just to do horse SAR, I would be a little careful. They'll need to be told up front that there is a ton of stuff that CAP will require of them before being able to do anything in the field. Emphasize the uniform and training requirements.
On another issue, should members doing SAR from horseback be ground team qualified and still have to carry the required GT equipment? I would say yes.
Agreed, Mounted SAR should be GTM qualified - again, the SAR needs are the same, so the training and understanding should be also. 24 hour gear is as essential mounted as on foot. You can ride in the BDU's, have done so.
It is easier to train persons that are already teamed with their horses to be good searchers than to take a GTM and make them a safe rider. Ideally, CAP members that already have horses can combine both to be multi-functional, as Mission Scanners or Observers are often also GTM or GTL.
Yes, you have to be prepared to train, practice, be a team. Just as in any SAR activity. This gives another aspect.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 10, 2007, 10:40:15 PM
On another issue, should members doing SAR from horseback be ground team qualified and still have to carry the required GT equipment? I would say yes.
Carry it on their backs, or let the horse do it...didn't you see the llama article in the last Volunteer? Geesh...:)
Would each GT have a llama, and each Squadron and Llama Maintenance Officer, or would that fall to Supply? And are we liable if the creature spits on a member of the public? ::)
Getting back to horses, could mounted GTMs still deduct their equestrian gear at the end of the year, or would they have to show that it was used more than 50% of the time for CAP purposes, and do the horses mind being awakened at 0330 to go shut off an ELT, and if they do not, could they be trained to go find it themselves, ya know, like those horses that count and the little ponies that fetch beer?
This thread may or may not help people interested in MSAR: [I would bet direct contact with persons mentioned in thread would be of only help]
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3882.new#new (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3882.new#new)
Im not sure about current policy, but at one time Equestrian SAR team members could list that skill on the 101 card as a "specialist" function.
Quote from: JTodd on July 06, 2007, 04:06:40 AM
Good Evening To All,
We have some people that want to start a horse patrol within our squadron. I have not been able to find any Wings or Units that have something like this. Does anybody have any experience with this sort of thing? Or know where I might look for information?
TIA
I realize that I'm way late to this thread, but fwiw, if you are still seeking information on horse operations, you may wish to post a query at www.militaryhorse.org on the forum there.
Interesting cite. I was in the Wyoming CAP a zillion years ago when I was a teen.
Just FYI,
I haven't seen/heard/picked up a loan voice in the wind about a Mounted Patrol in my Wing here in SD since I joined it in 2003.
I will tell you that Phillip squadron is significantly smaller than it once was, and I'm sure the Mounted Patrol has since faded into obscurity.
If you wish to gain more recent information about SDWG I encourage you to go to www.sdcap.us
This will more than likely give you more recent contact information than what you can find on Phillip's website.
If you're having trouble, you can send me a PM and I would be more than happy to assist you.
edit:* ah darn, this was a necro-thread. Information above still relevant, don't really know if anyone else still cares by now though.