A hypothetical. Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.
Charles Lindbergh was notorious for anti-Jewish statements. In particular those made in a speech at an America First rally at the Des Moines Coliseum on September 11, 1941, "Who Are the War Agitators?",
It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.
That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.
.First, the British ......
The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.
It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.
No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.
Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.
Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.
I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.
We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.
The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war.......
(Source: http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp (http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp))
Lindbergh made numerous other well-documented anti-Jewish statements such as,
"We must limit to a reasonable amount the Jewish influence ... Whenever the Jewish percentage of total population becomes too high, a reaction seems to invariably occur. It is too bad because a few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country."
But the Des Moines speech is regarded with particular distaste because it stated that American Jews put the interests of their religious compatriots in Europe ahead of the interests of the United States.
I've personally encountered antisemitism, some of it silly. Other, not. Including antisemitism in the CAP.
When I was at Quantico for USMC PLC in 1966, some fellow candidates examined my shaven head for bumps, indicating the vestigial horns that some thought Jews had (An old belief: Michelangelo's sculpture of Moses,portrays him with horns).
This old-fashioned racism was not so surprising, considering the first sociology textbook I read in college included details of an experiment where African-American men showered, then exercised, then were smelt while covered by a sheet to determine if their smell was any worse then that of similarly-exercised white men (it was the similar, of course).
Fortunately, I was a cadet before there was a Lindbergh Award so did not have to make the decision whether to wear an award honoring a man who accused Jews of treason.
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
Quote from: etodd on July 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are
mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A)
and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and
optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms
11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but
their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
Emphasis mine. The only cadet required to wear the ribbon, per the regulation, are those for whom the Lindbergh is their highest award.
This question applies only to cadets in the grade of C/MSgt. Thus far, I have nothing more productive to add...
As with anything else, follow the manual.
CAPM 39-1 11.1.1.1 makes wear of ribbons on the Class B optional so simply remove all the ribbons. Once he has his next achievement, he can use the guidance in 11.1.1.1.2 to wear only his highest acheivement ribbon. Those are the options. He cannot pick and choose which achievement ribbons to wear: all, highest, or none.
DakRadz beat me to it...
Quote from: etodd on July 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.
I had no problem wearing the Lindbergh ribbon when I was a cadet. Then, at 14, I really didn't care about the names of the achievements. I only cared about passing to the next one...
As far as the second part of your supposition; "stupid is as stupid does". I never had time for petty ignorance, nor would I let such nonsense get the better of me. Such was the positive nature of the Cadet Program. It helped give me the strength to advance in spite of the obstacles placed before me.
YMMV!
I was unaware the British were a race. I suspect they are, too.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Quote from: FW on July 17, 2016, 12:54:28 AM
As far as the second part of your supposition; "stupid is as stupid does". I never had time for petty ignorance, nor would I let such nonsense get the better of me.
YMMV!
Calling American Jews traitors is not "petty ignorance".
As a group, Lindbergh had a right to express his views. Or are you saying that Americans are to be denied their right to free expression based on what may be popular? If anyone expressed their views for or against war, that was their God-given American right. It is right there in the Constitution of the USA!
I am not saying Jews wanted to bring the US into war or not.
The truth of the matter is that was the only way to stop Hitler.
I am not Jewish, I am Hispanic and Catholic.
I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 16, 2016, 11:19:41 PM
Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.
As noted, it's possible a given cadet could go the cycle without ever wearing ribbons, and if he (with parental support)
didnbt' want to wear it, I would FIMO, and
never mention it again to anyone, especially anyone else in the unit.
Quote from: PHall on July 17, 2016, 12:41:36 AM
Quote from: etodd on July 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.
Not much any more - the latest version of 39-1 makes a lot of things mandatory for all if worn on the USAF styles,
though both cadets and seniors can short-stack, ribbons of some sort are required on the service coat, always have been.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 17, 2016, 02:59:20 AM
Quote from: PHall on July 17, 2016, 12:41:36 AM
Quote from: etodd on July 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.
Not much any more - the latest version of 39-1 makes a lot of things mandatory for all if worn on the USAF styles,
though both cadets and seniors can short-stack, ribbons of some sort are required on the service coat, always have been.
Technically, cadets are required to wear blues, leading to being required to wear ribbons (most will want them, and as mentioned, the service coat requires them)- wearas (okay, I did that on purpose) seniors could theoretically have a long and productive career in a polo shirt. (I don't want anything to do with a polo personally, or at least currently, but I respect that it is an option for many things.) The rules are different, doesn't have to be bad.
Also, shortstacking as a cadet is restricted, but as a senior carries only suggestions of what to short.
Quote from: Pace on July 17, 2016, 02:14:44 AM
I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.
I'm just glad a mod stumbled into this early so it can be.... observed.
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 16, 2016, 11:19:41 PM
A hypothetical. Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.
Charles Lindbergh was notorious for anti-Jewish statements. In particular those made in a speech at an America First rally at the Des Moines Coliseum on September 11, 1941, "Who Are the War Agitators?",
It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.
That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.
.First, the British ......
The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.
It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.
No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.
Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.
Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.
I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.
We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.
The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war.......
(Source: http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp (http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp))
Lindbergh made numerous other well-documented anti-Jewish statements such as,
"We must limit to a reasonable amount the Jewish influence ... Whenever the Jewish percentage of total population becomes too high, a reaction seems to invariably occur. It is too bad because a few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country."
But the Des Moines speech is regarded with particular distaste because it stated that American Jews put the interests of their religious compatriots in Europe ahead of the interests of the United States.
I've personally encountered antisemitism, some of it silly. Other, not. Including antisemitism in the CAP.
When I was at Quantico for USMC PLC in 1966, some fellow candidates examined my shaven head for bumps, indicating the vestigial horns that some thought Jews had (An old belief: Michelangelo's sculpture of Moses,portrays him with horns).
This old-fashioned racism was not so surprising, considering the first sociology textbook I read in college included details of an experiment where African-American men showered, then exercised, then were smelt while covered by a sheet to determine if their smell was any worse then that of similarly-exercised white men (it was the similar, of course).
Fortunately, I was a cadet before there was a Lindbergh Award so did not have to make the decision whether to wear an award honoring a man who accused Jews of treason.
This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!
Quote from: Pace on July 17, 2016, 02:14:44 AM
I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.
Agreed. Respectfully request doing so now.
I fail to see the benefit to the program to initiate muckraking topics like this.
It contributes little, promotes divisive commentary rather than constructive engagement, and leads us into opposition rather than into cooperative, productive discussion.
V/R
Spam
Quote from: Spam on July 17, 2016, 05:07:10 AM
Agreed. Respectfully request doing so now.
I fail to see the benefit to the program to initiate muckraking topics like this.
It contributes little, promotes divisive commentary rather than constructive engagement, and leads us into opposition rather than into cooperative, productive discussion.
Yep.
What next?
"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"
Is there a faceplam icon?
Whatever.
I'm proud of you all. This didn't turn into a flame war and get locked (yet).
Look, if you really dig deep into our nation's history, you will find that many of our icons have colorful issues that are little-known today (read into Benjamin Franklin, for example). Kuddos to the cadet for learning his historical facts, but this *maybe* is a great time to teach him the life lesson of when to choose his battles and when to let it go. I am not Jewish and cannot relate to this issue, but if Benjamin O. Davis had been a well-known racist, I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.
Edit: I missed the hypothetical part in the title... I'm done.
^My thoughts as well, however I am Jewish, and do relate to RNOfficer's remarks. I just don't let the ignorance of bigotry bother me (much). I think it is more important we just show bigotry and racism is not acceptable, and rebut with honest discussion based on reality.
BTW; Lindbergh was almost universally shunned after his AFC speech. His request for recommission was refused by FDR, and except for his aviation contribution, marginalized as a "celebrity".
FWIW, at least some reputable sources say that Lindbergh was himself victimized by a very effective propaganda machine operated by the British (who wanted the US to enter the war NOW!!) and by the FDR administration that was also striving to get into the war against Germany, Italy, and Japan. Several of Lindbergh's documented speeches strongly supported offering material, but argued against sending troops. This isn't unlike some of the contemporary reluctance to send troops to where ever. For example, see this very well documented history of the lead up to WW2: Lindbergh vs. Roosevelt: The Rivalry That Divided America. As always, it's a good idea to look into the motivations of the players, the media, the politics of the time. FWIW, this, and other sources describe some of the tactics used by the British propaganda machine in the 30's and through the war years, as well as in the years that led up to the US entry into WW1. Those tactics were relevant to successful efforts at that time to discredit Lindbergh at the time, and in many contemporary histories.
While this discussion could easily spiral, it is valuable from a number of perspectives. The efforts to re-write history in contemporary discussions may ignore the prevailing culture at the time. While we have changed, our culture has changed, and our interpretation of history has changed with it, the fact remains that we are where we are now because of where we've been. We should learn from our history rather than seek to whitewash it and revise it. We should also be willing to question the conventional wisdom of those who wrote the history while living it.
Quote from: Pace on July 17, 2016, 11:28:16 AM
I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.
I was trying to figure out the proper way of wording this. Thank you for doing so.
Quote"Supposing a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
"Supposing it didn't," said Pooh after careful thought.
+1, probably a couple more - this is the best response.
People are so afraid these days to make decisions, and Commanders to command, that every hypothetical,
never happened / never will, .000001% case has to be raised to the level of a "dialogue", which forces a discussion
of something that never happened / never will, and then further requires a policy be drafted for
something that has never happened and never will.
All wasted time, because...
1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.
2 - If it ever does, it'll be as rare as a Honduran Rain of Fish, and only affect those involved,
even if, like a Honduran Rain of Fish, a bunch of non-involved people think it's "important".
3 - The observer phenomenon becomes an issue in that constant raising of the hypothetical
increases the statistical probability that someone decides it's actually a "good idea".
4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.
Quote from: DakRadz on July 17, 2016, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: etodd on July 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.
11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A)
and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms
11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
Emphasis mine. The only cadet required to wear the ribbon, per the regulation, are those for whom the Lindbergh is their highest award.
This question applies only to cadets in the grade of C/MSgt. Thus far, I have nothing more productive to add...
Thanks for concise and reasonable solution of this potential issue.
Quote from: NIN on July 17, 2016, 05:15:49 AM
What next?
"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"
Is there a faceplam icon?
Whatever.
I'm afraid you've missed the point. There were lots of anti-Semites in American history including Henry Ford and General "Billy" Mitchell. Lindbergh deserves a special place however because of his accusation that Jews were traitors.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on July 17, 2016, 04:07:40 AM
This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!
I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.
You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 18, 2016, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: NIN on July 17, 2016, 05:15:49 AM
What next?
"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"
Is there a faceplam icon?
Whatever.
I'm afraid you've missed the point. There were lots of anti-Semites in American history including Henry Ford and General "Billy" Mitchell. Lindbergh deserves a special place however because of his accusation that Jews were traitors.
There seems to be this recent propensity for letting the evil that men do live after them, and burying whatever good they did with their bones.
Regardless of everything else Lindbergh did or said, The achievement he is recognized for is the first solo transatlantic flight, bringing credibility to the safety of flight at a critical time in history.
Deciding to repudiate all that he did before the event in question (14 years later, mind you) is IMO an over-reaction.
You can coach this as a learning opportunity in several ways.
Firstly that people are flawed and can accomplish great things while being imperfect personages later in life. Or perhaps a lesson in how people use fame down the road in their life for good or evil.
Or perhaps it could be a discussion of what they might be called on to do if they were to go into the military, where they may have to do something that they personally disagree with but that they swore an oath requiring them to do so anyways.
Perhaps the cadet realizes that if the para-military life is too much restriction on his freedoms, the military life might not be for him. Or he might take the lesson to heart, wear the ribbon to represent HIS achievement and to recognize the original achievement of the person in question.
Perhaps he may decide that he is the more tolerant man, wearing the ribbon honoring someone, despite that someone having done something less tolerant later in life.
I suspect a character development officer can come up with a few other thoughts that I have not come up with on that front.
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 18, 2016, 09:18:25 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on July 17, 2016, 04:07:40 AM
This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!
I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.
You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.
I was quite serious in my comment. Perhaps it is because I've sat through some promotion boards where cadets couldn't give me a single fact about the person whose name has been honored with an achievement, or perhaps it is because I think inquisitiveness should be directed toward positive goals; either way, historian sure seems like a good place to dig in to the finer details of the honored personages of flight.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2016, 02:14:18 AM
4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.
Apparently you have not paid much attention to current events.
http://fortune.com/2016/03/15/harvard-law-crest-slaveholder/ (http://fortune.com/2016/03/15/harvard-law-crest-slaveholder/)
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2015/11/woodrow_wilsons_racism_at_center_of_princeton_u_st.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2015/11/woodrow_wilsons_racism_at_center_of_princeton_u_st.html)
http://www.app.com/story/news/education/college-news/2016/04/29/removing-racist-legacy/82930028/ (http://www.app.com/story/news/education/college-news/2016/04/29/removing-racist-legacy/82930028/)
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/4/29/yale-keeps-calhoun-name/ (http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/4/29/yale-keeps-calhoun-name/)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/georgetown-university-to-rename-two-buildings-that-reflect-schools-ties-to-slavery/2015/11/15/e36edd32-8bb7-11e5-acff-673ae92ddd2b_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/georgetown-university-to-rename-two-buildings-that-reflect-schools-ties-to-slavery/2015/11/15/e36edd32-8bb7-11e5-acff-673ae92ddd2b_story.html)
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/482f3e06118c4398ac601022a5335538/colleges-update-mascots-mottos-amid-pressure-students (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/482f3e06118c4398ac601022a5335538/colleges-update-mascots-mottos-amid-pressure-students)
http://time.com/4017022/jefferson-davis-statue-removed/ (http://time.com/4017022/jefferson-davis-statue-removed/)
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article22503351.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article22503351.html)
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists)
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24588/ (http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24588/)
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on July 18, 2016, 09:29:59 PM
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 18, 2016, 09:18:25 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on July 17, 2016, 04:07:40 AM
This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!
I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.
You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.
I was quite serious in my comment. Perhaps it is because I've sat through some promotion boards where cadets couldn't give me a single fact about the person whose name has been honored with an achievement, or perhaps it is because I think inquisitiveness should be directed toward positive goals; either way, historian sure seems like a good place to dig in to the finer details of the honored personages of flight.
I apologize that I misinterpreted your comment. I believe that you will find that Jewish cadets are well-acquainted with both Lindbergh's achievements and his accusation that Jews were traitors to America.
As for directing inquisitiveness toward positive goals, certainly this is worthwhile. At the same time it is equally historically important not to gloss over gross injustices.. Lindbergh's statements on Jews were important because he was "an honored personage of flight".
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 18, 2016, 09:35:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2016, 02:14:18 AM
4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.
Apparently you didn't read my post, this has nothing to do, whatsoever with any current events,
nor my comment, nor the idea of bringing up these constant "never happened never will" hypotheticals.
Maybe in your professional medical life these things are a factor. CAP members and leaders are
volunteerswho have no requirement whatsoever to deal with this level of drama if it is pushed beyond the reasonable tolerance of
the average person's sensibilities.
The good ones will do their best to be sensitive to the person affected and uphold the core values, the rest don't need to
be kept up at night thinking about something that has never happened and never will.
Quote from: RNOfficer on July 18, 2016, 09:35:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2016, 02:14:18 AM
4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.
Apparently you have not paid much attention to current events.
RNOfficer,
[Removed]
Without the agitators pushing those fools into it, few of these instances you cite would have turned into such a divisive, hateful, nonproductive diversion. Without you to stir the pot and fuel the flames of discontent here, NO, the odds are highly against some young impressionable cadet deciding to Make A Statement... but that's part of your point, isn't it? You want to bring it on, so you bring it up. You want to change and tear up the program to remove the impure, don't you?
So, if only the ideologically pure should be allowed to remain after the Purge that you are bringing on, what's next on your agenda: defame and destroy Von Braun, a registered Nazi? Go after Spaatz because as PACAF commander he carried out orders to drop the nukes on Japan - a 'racist' act, according to some of the revisionist historians?
[Removed]
Removed personal attacks - Pace
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on July 17, 2016, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Pace on July 17, 2016, 11:28:16 AM
I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.
I was trying to figure out the proper way of wording this. Thank you for doing so.
^^^^ Spot on. Trying to wrap my head around this hypothetical. The closest I could come up with is "Suppose a Chaplain earned but refused to wear the Wilson award because he was <gasp> a Presbyterian minister <end of grasp> and they were of a different denomination or faith group". To borrow a word from "The Princess Bride"... "Inconceivable!" (Vizzini). With all the effort it takes to attain that award, it is worn with pride exactly for the accomplishments of the person it is bestowed upon (as well as it is an award bestowed by an organization I am proud to be a member of).
I've seen enough. Throwing on the water before the flame spreads.
*locked*