I am not sure and I know people will disagree but The use of the Airman Battle Shirt or some other variation like the Airman Battle System-Ground (seen below) for SAR and other ES activities seems like a good idea to me. Also I feel authorizing the sage green boots to be worn alongside black boots and the decision on which color to use would be personal would be smart, those who want black or who already have black and can't afford new green ons can stick with them and those who want sage can use them. http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg (http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg)
Dead horse.
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 17, 2016, 11:22:58 PM
I am not sure and I know people will disagree but The use of the Airman Battle Shirt or some other variation like the Airman Battle System-Ground (seen below) for SAR and other ES activities seems like a good idea to me. Also I feel authorizing the sage green boots to be worn alongside black boots and the decision on which color to use would be personal would be smart, those who want black or who already have black and can't afford new green ons can stick with them and those who want sage can use them. http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg (http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg)
Why?
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 18, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 17, 2016, 11:22:58 PM
I am not sure and I know people will disagree but The use of the Airman Battle Shirt or some other variation like the Airman Battle System-Ground (seen below) for SAR and other ES activities seems like a good idea to me. Also I feel authorizing the sage green boots to be worn alongside black boots and the decision on which color to use would be personal would be smart, those who want black or who already have black and can't afford new green ons can stick with them and those who want sage can use them. http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg (http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg)
Why?
Why what?
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 18, 2016, 12:39:05 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 18, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 17, 2016, 11:22:58 PM
I am not sure and I know people will disagree but The use of the Airman Battle Shirt or some other variation like the Airman Battle System-Ground (seen below) for SAR and other ES activities seems like a good idea to me. Also I feel authorizing the sage green boots to be worn alongside black boots and the decision on which color to use would be personal would be smart, those who want black or who already have black and can't afford new green ons can stick with them and those who want sage can use them. http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg (http://kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/airmen-battle-system-ground/airman-bsg.jpg)
Why?
Why what?
And I'm done (mic drop).
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 17, 2016, 11:22:58 PMAlso I feel authorizing the sage green boots to be worn alongside black boots and the decision on which color to use would be personal would be smart,
No, it wouldn't.
Youre not going into the poo for a week thats why. Have you actually been on a CAP mission? Even the real world high profile burners are 180 degrees from combat. Use what you have.
Why, as in why would we want to be more tak-ti-kewl than we already are, with no standard field gear across the board? Why would we want to spend more money on boots, especially for cadets who will outgrow them between ages 12 and 18? Sage boots aren't exactly cheap, and the possibility of getting Ma Blue's hand me down boots are very slim.
We already have an issue with cadets using plate carriers and tactical vests and other items that are best seen in a combat zone than in a wilderness SAR arena. There's a picture floating around from the PA balloon crash of several cadets being all tak-ti-kewl in their boonie hats (not authorized), shemaghs (also not authorized), tactical vests (meh), and NO ORANGE VESTS, which are mandatory.
If one of my cadets wants to wear this kind of stuff, I make them show me the utility of the rig before I'll allow it. I've tried to use several different combat rigs myself and just can't make them work for what I need. We're not a combat SAR team and don't need a tactical vest, in my opinion.
Just my .02, YMMV.
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2016, 12:49:47 AM
Why, as in why would we want to be more tak-ti-kewl than we already are, with no standard field gear across the board? Why would we want to spend more money on boots, especially for cadets who will outgrow them between ages 12 and 18? Sage boots aren't exactly cheap, and the possibility of getting Ma Blue's hand me down boots are very slim.
We already have an issue with cadets using plate carriers and tactical vests and other items that are best seen in a combat zone than in a wilderness SAR arena. There's a picture floating around from the PA balloon crash of several cadets being all tak-ti-kewl in their boonie hats (not authorized), shemaghs (also not authorized), tactical vests (meh), and NO ORANGE VESTS, which are mandatory.
If one of my cadets wants to wear this kind of stuff, I make them show me the utility of the rig before I'll allow it. I've tried to use several different combat rigs myself and just can't make them work for what I need. We're not a combat SAR team and don't need a tactical vest, in my opinion.
Just my .02, YMMV.
I wasnt saying Plate Carrier's. But for carrying equipment I would recommend alice and espically the alice LBV with a but pack and a few canteens and a first aid pouch and could of other miscellaneous pouches and you have everything you need for pretty inexpensive and light weight for as far as gear goes and when it comes to what we are wearing why not cut down on weight as much as possible and thats why I recommended the ABS plus it comes already fire resistant.
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Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2016, 12:49:47 AM
Why, as in why would we want to be more tak-ti-kewl than we already are, with no standard field gear across the board? Why would we want to spend more money on boots, especially for cadets who will outgrow them between ages 12 and 18? Sage boots aren't exactly cheap, and the possibility of getting Ma Blue's hand me down boots are very slim.
We already have an issue with cadets using plate carriers and tactical vests and other items that are best seen in a combat zone than in a wilderness SAR arena. There's a picture floating around from the PA balloon crash of several cadets being all tak-ti-kewl in their boonie hats (not authorized), shemaghs (also not authorized), tactical vests (meh), and NO ORANGE VESTS, which are mandatory.
Just my .02, YMMV.
also it wouldn't be spending "more" money on boots. A good pair of black or sage green boots are about the same price. Plus you can buy Sage green boots used for cheep.
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 18, 2016, 01:00:13 AM
plus it comes already fire resistant.
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Well then...I'm sold.
Quote from: Simple Jack on June 18, 2016, 01:00:13 AM
I wasnt saying Plate Carrier's. But for carrying equipment I would recommend alice and espically the alice LBV with a but pack and a few canteens and a first aid pouch and could of other miscellaneous pouches and you have everything you need for pretty inexpensive and light weight for as far as gear goes and when it comes to what we are wearing why not cut down on weight as much as possible and thats why I recommended the ABS plus it comes already fire resistant.
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Absolutely do not recommend the ABS-G due to multiple reasons relayed from comrades experiences in theater - I searched for and found an open source site which mirrors their extremely negative impressions. Also consider that its not authorized, at ALL: http://nation.time.com/2013/05/13/uniform-insanity/ (http://nation.time.com/2013/05/13/uniform-insanity/)
On why no to ALICE/other surplus at present: because physics, because economics (at least locally for us, which should hold for most units unless you have a magic source of obsolete ALICE gear).
(Because we have a bunch of former cadet aerospace Engineer GTLs on staff here, sigh) my unit did a comparative gear test a decade ago between the Vietnam era ALICE gear, the then-new military gear coming out, and more modern (and cheaper) commercial day packs, and the results were compelling enough that we scrapped the heavy, prone to breakage old ALICE gear and standardized on the Level III day packs, which fit everything. We routinely do a group buy of packs and sell them at cost (approx. 30 bucks) to our members.
Here's a link to the type of product we picked. This has been available for over a decade now with minor variations in lot/condition, but which testifies to its stability. I think we picked the right choice for our volunteer force in terms of price point/availability/durability/capability:
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search)
The other, less compelling reason is a social/psy issue: because everyone can afford a readily available under 40 buck solution rather than a mishmash of old/surplus crap, we end up deploying as a uniformly equipped team, which lends confidence to our appearance when we participate in joint services exercises, as our unit did in March with USCG and another agency. You show up as a team which trains to standards and deploys to specs, not as a bunch of rag-ass irregulars in hand me downs.
The fact that the gear is available in OD should hopefully assuage the inner "lets play Army" child in many of our members who are more focused on dress up play than on effective execution of the ES mission.
V/R
Spam
"Why, its so easy, even Spam and Garibaldi can do it and look good"
Quote from: Spam on June 18, 2016, 02:48:07 AM
Here's a link to the type of product we picked. This has been available for over a decade now with minor variations in lot/condition, but which testifies to its stability. I think we picked the right choice for our volunteer force in terms of price point/availability/durability/capability:
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search)
That's the pack I carry. That's the pack I recommend. Why? It works. It is readily available. It is affordable. Now, if only I could get everyone to buy the same color!
Quote from: winterg on June 18, 2016, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: Spam on June 18, 2016, 02:48:07 AM
Here's a link to the type of product we picked. This has been available for over a decade now with minor variations in lot/condition, but which testifies to its stability. I think we picked the right choice for our volunteer force in terms of price point/availability/durability/capability:
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-level-iii-assault-pack-olive-drab-heavy-duty-600-denier-polyester-construction-4046872175138.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search)
That's the pack I carry. That's the pack I recommend. Why? It works. It is readily available. It is affordable. Now, if only I could get everyone to buy the same color!
Simple. Make a directive :o
Quote from: Spam on June 18, 2016, 02:48:07 AM
http://nation.time.com/2013/05/13/uniform-insanity/ (http://nation.time.com/2013/05/13/uniform-insanity/)
That reads like some threads I've seen here about uniforms. I feel better already!
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2016, 03:20:08 PM
Simple. Make a directive :o
That would have been a great solution. But as an ESO (at the time) it was not within my purview to implement a directive. The Ops Officer and CC could have, but not I.
to me boot color is a non-issue
however, if the thought is to keep things affordable to the average member, then it seems the easiest thing to do is to authorize the (Air Force) green sage boots... along with allowing people to buy any other green/sage boots (from any company that makes outdoor/military/camping style boots.
something similar was done... up to now... with the BDU uniform (any black outdoor/work boot that the member wanted to buy was considered okay). this means people can buy the military version if they want... or any other boot, and it's up to them how much money it costs, or whether its military issue or not.
either way problem solved.
keep it simple. if we are to change to green/sage color in the future, i say using this same general policy that we did in the past when the boots were black.
there. both sides relatively happy. and at no imposed financial burden to anyone.
Quote from: supertigerCH on June 18, 2016, 08:05:34 PM
to me boot color is a non-issue
however, if the thought is to keep things affordable to the average member, then it seems the easiest thing to do is to authorize the (Air Force) green sage boots... along with allowing people to buy any other green/sage boots (from any company that makes outdoor/military/camping style boots.
something similar was done... up to now... with the BDU uniform (any black outdoor/work boot that the member wanted to buy was considered okay). this means people can buy the military version if they want... or any other boot, and it's up to them how much money it costs, or whether its military issue or not.
either way problem solved.
keep it simple. if we are to change to green/sage color in the future, i say using this same general policy that we did in the past when the boots were black.
there. both sides relatively happy. and at no imposed financial burden to anyone.
I agree
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Quote from: supertigerCH on June 18, 2016, 08:05:34 PM
to me boot color is a non-issue
however, if the thought is to keep things affordable to the average member, then it seems the easiest thing to do is to authorize the (Air Force) green sage boots... along with allowing people to buy any other green/sage boots (from any company that makes outdoor/military/camping style boots.
something similar was done... up to now... with the BDU uniform (any black outdoor/work boot that the member wanted to buy was considered okay). this means people can buy the military version if they want... or any other boot, and it's up to them how much money it costs, or whether its military issue or not.
either way problem solved.
keep it simple. if we are to change to green/sage color in the future, i say using this same general policy that we did in the past when the boots were black.
there. both sides relatively happy. and at no imposed financial burden to anyone.
There is no imposed financial burden now beyond what already existed on boots.
Just follow the directive from hq. This will avoid the [darn] individualism we are encountering in the CAP. Black boots that's the bottom line.
fair enough. like my comment said... i don't consider the color of the boots we wear to be a big issue.
my comment (if you read it again) was just about what seems the most easy for members (financially)... if a change to green/sage boots ever does happen. the overall policy in place for the black boots would work just as well for the green.
for now, the boots are black. i've marched more miles than i will ever be able to count in the back ones, and i imagine that marching miles in the green/sage boots isn't a whole lot different.
no big deal.
If I had a magic wand, I'd make the boot options AF Sage or tan. That would give us HUGE surplus from the Army, and lots of cheap sources who sell to the Army...
I'd also have avoided doing the silver thing in the first place. Keep it simple. Keep it white. This also allows 3rd party vendors do to do the work Vanguard has NO INTEREST in doing (all the military badges in CAP colors). Vanguard is never going to stock all the military badges in CAP colors. So keep it simple for the 3rd party guys.