I'm not sure it explicitly says yes or no and have come across a 'new member kit' that states 'no'. What do you all think? I've worn them before without being corrected but then, that doesn't make sure it's right. :)
No, you do not. This is the one place that the AF Blues and Corporate uniforms diverge of accouterments.
Well.....the manual contradicts itself.....Fig A5-1 shows AMPUOG (adult member pursuing officer grade) shoulder marks.
But
Quote1.4.1. Adult individuals without grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any rank insignia.
I think I'm going to ask the NUC to remove the AMPUOG from the figure.
If I'm reading this section of 39-1 correctly, I believe that a SMWOG wearing the Corporate aviator uniform shirt is required to wear the blank grey epaulet sleeves now.
Page 12 Chapter 1.4.1.2
Sorry, I can't copy and paste this on my tablet.
I see that too....but it directly contradicts Para 1.4.1.
Okay...I'm on it.
Question to Knowledge base sent.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2016, 07:33:58 AM
Well.....the manual contradicts itself.....Fig A5-1 shows AMPUOG (adult member pursuing officer grade) shoulder marks.
But
Quote1.4.1. Adult individuals without grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any rank insignia.
I think I'm going to ask the NUC to remove the AMPUOG from the figure.
The shoulder marks/epaulets are NOT a grade insignia. They're meant to distinguish a member pursuing officer grade, from a member pursuing NCO grade. There's no contradiction.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 23, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2016, 07:33:58 AM
Well.....the manual contradicts itself.....Fig A5-1 shows AMPUOG (adult member pursuing officer grade) shoulder marks.
But
Quote1.4.1. Adult individuals without grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any rank insignia.
I think I'm going to ask the NUC to remove the AMPUOG from the figure.
The shoulder marks/epaulets are NOT a grade insignia. They're meant to distinguish a member pursuing officer grade, from a member pursuing NCO grade. There's no contradiction.
I'm a college graduate and I'm confused. It needs to be cleared up.
Okay.....disregard.
In the cool morning light....I guess my ability to read for comprehension kicked in.
"SMWOG" more properly known as Adult members Pursuing Officer Grade or Adult Members Pursuing NCO Grade, will wear the uniform of the "corps" that they are going for.
So....someone who is going to become an officer wears the gray shoulder marks without any grade insignia. The BLANK Shoulder Marks.
Well, I'll be Kesseled, I was wrong, and the "Blank" slides are worn on the Aviators.
I would have sworn that I read it the other way when it came out.
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 23, 2016, 07:11:19 PM
Well, I'll be Kesseled, I was wrong, and the "Blank" slides are worn on the Aviators.
I would have sworn that I read it the other way when it came out.
It's alright. I read your posts, and was going to check, because I've been telling officer track SMs in G/Ws to wear the blanks! Thanks SMSgt for the clear up!
This is one of those things that has never made sense to me.
The only purpose of epaulets, is to hold the rank (grade) of the person wearing them... and SMWOG by definition do not have any rank pins / grade to put on the epaulets.
It is quite ridiculous that members are forced to wear these (and to spend more money on yet another item from Vanguard)... when there is absolutely no purpose -- until they reach second lieutenant.
Perhaps I can stand to be corrected, but as far as I know... no branch of the U.S. military does this (and although CAP is not the military... even our "patron service" the Air Force... whom our uniforms are supposed to emulate... does not do anything like this "empty epaulet " on their uniforms -- even with officer candidates).
Just another CAP quirk that I will probably never make sense of. Then again, maybe some would see this as my own personal shortcoming. Everyone has their own thoughts I guess. To me this additional piece of the uniform (to pay money on) willl never make sense.
Quote from: supertigerCH on March 30, 2016, 10:25:54 PM
This is one of those things that has never made sense to me.
The only purpose of epaulets, is to hold the rank (grade) of the person wearing them... and SMWOG by definition do not have any rank pins / grade to put on the epaulets.
It is quite ridiculous that members are forced to wear these (and to spend more money on yet another item from Vanguard)... when there is absolutely no purpose -- until they reach second lieutenant.
TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 30, 2016, 10:31:35 PM
TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.
"That" uniform is required of all members.
With that said, I think I'll just order a few pairs for squadron supply, and members can borrow / return upon promotion.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2016, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 30, 2016, 10:31:35 PM
TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.
"That" uniform is required of all members.
With that said, I think I'll just order a few pairs for squadron supply, and members can borrow / return upon promotion.
Where is it written that aviator shirt or blues is required? No specific uniform is required for any Senior Member. They can choose to purchase and wear just the polo shirt.
The polo shirt is what I tell all new Senior Members to purchase first. It is the cheapest uniform since it seems like most people have a pair of gray pants already. I want them to be sure CAP is for them before going out and spending a lot of money on the other uniform combinations. When they get close to six months I ask them to either purchase the aviator shirt or a set of blues or a utility uniform. I encourage all of my Senior Members to have a utility and dress uniform but in the beginning I want them to get involved and then see what path they want to take.
Quote from: CAPM 39-11.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph. (emphasis mine)
Drat, too slow. What he said ^.
Quote from: kwe1009 on March 31, 2016, 02:36:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2016, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 30, 2016, 10:31:35 PM
TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.
"That" uniform is required of all members.
With that said, I think I'll just order a few pairs for squadron supply, and members can borrow / return upon promotion.
Where is it written that aviator shirt or blues is required? No specific uniform is required for any Senior Member. They can choose to purchase and wear just the polo shirt.
The polo shirt is what I tell all new Senior Members to purchase first. It is the cheapest uniform since it seems like most people have a pair of gray pants already. I want them to be sure CAP is for them before going out and spending a lot of money on the other uniform combinations. When they get close to six months I ask them to either purchase the aviator shirt or a set of blues or a utility uniform. I encourage all of my Senior Members to have a utility and dress uniform but in the beginning I want them to get involved and then see what path they want to take.
CAPR 39-1
1.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may
require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a
specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied
without expense to the cadet.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the
Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets
authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style
uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and
older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style
Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.
Telling adult members to get the polo only points to ignorance of regulations.
Here is what CAPM 39-1 says about uniforms. I have highlighted relevant parts:
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.
Note no mention of the polo being required as the minimum. The polo is mentioned later as an additional work uniform.
:-\
Drat! Too slow...
QuoteCAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014 73 5.2.1.11. Accessories. Reference paragraph 6.3.2.
5.2.2. CAP Corporate Working Uniform. (Figure 5.3)
5.2.2.1. Shirt. Two types of knit polo shirts are authorized for men and women. The knit polo shirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat conditions on the flight line or while participating in actual air operations require additional air circulation.
^^^^ Specifically says polo can be worn during flight ops. Its all I own and all I wear as a CAP pilot.
Haven't we hashed this out in another thread a few days ago? LOL
If you don't like me wearing a polo to fly .... get NHQ to delete 5.2.2.1 above. ;)
OK, be nice, fun is fun but no piling on!
(http://www.5wpr.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/pile-on.jpg)
In all seriousness, though, something like this, which has been on the first page of 39-1 for 20 years and still escapes
experienced members clearly points to disconnects in understanding the program's actual expectations.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:02:55 AMSpecifically says polo can be worn during flight ops.
Yes, it does, however that does
negate the other MBU requirement.
The quotes you made do not state the polo is a minimum required uniform. Just that it can be worn during flight ops. This skirts the issue!
Some seniors look to regulations and manuals and choose which parts they want to abide with as if they are a supermarket on which they can choose different brands as they wish. Sorry, they are not like that.
You read "minimum," that is what you should get. If you want to buy and use the polo instead of the BDU or BBDU, that is fine but the polo is additional to the Blues or Aviator / Greys.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 31, 2016, 03:10:29 AM
The quotes you made do not state the polo is a minimum required uniform. Just that it can be worn during flight ops. This skirts the issue!
I could say I bought it and then never wear it. What good is that? Polo is all I need.
Wing Conference .... big event this weekend.
A) Senior members who do not own blues are given the option to wear the polo shirt and gray pants uniform for all activities during the day.
B) At the formal dinner, presentations and dance that evening, senior members who do not have dress blues may wear their Sunday best coat and tie.
^^^ And that my friends .... will increase attendance and will help with retention.
Sorry no dog-pilling intended but we answer as we read the messages. Most of the time it is two or three people answering at the same time. I am not going to erase something I spent 4 or 5 minutes typing!
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/ (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/)
QuoteDo I have to wear a uniform?
Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms. However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform. You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard. www.civilairpatrolstore.com (http://www.civilairpatrolstore.com).
Now, perhaps this is simply a distinction without a difference, but it sure lends the impression that one can join CAP as a SM and not wear a uniform, which would then make it follow that one wouldn't need to keep a uniform one would never wear in inventory.
Perhaps the FAQ should be updated?
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 31, 2016, 03:18:08 AM
Someone should update the FAQ here:
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/ (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/)
QuoteDo I have to wear a uniform?
Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms. However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform. You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard. www.civilairpatrolstore.com (http://www.civilairpatrolstore.com).
Now, perhaps this is simply a distinction without a difference, but it sure lends the impression that one can join CAP as a SM and not wear a uniform, which would then make it follow that one wouldn't need to keep a uniform one would never wear in inventory.
Perhaps the FAQ should be updated?
I was told I could be a member without a uniform, but if I wanted to get in the plane or work with Cadets, I needed to at least get the polo uniform. So I did. Done deal. :)
99% of flying, working with cadets, and Es all require a uniform, the occasional PT night, staff meeting in civvies,
or someone working remotely don't really count as the "norm".
Right wrong, or otherwise, you'll find verbiage indicating that compliance is mandatory in on that same first page (actually now page 5).
It's been assumed a number of times that the MBU requirement would be removed or changed in the recent revs of 39-1,
yet it wasn't, even with the end-to-end re-write, so clearly NHQ intends it to be there for a reason.
Saying "you can't make me"or "we don't have to" isn't the most productive response in a case like this.
All it takes is the end of a term to cause an issue. Commander 1 is lax in enforcement, his term ends, the new guy runs things by the book and is now the "bad guy",
yet neither CC1 nor the member could be bothered to actually read and comply with simple rules.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2016, 03:27:00 AM
99% of flying, working with cadets, and Es all require a uniform, the occasional PT night, staff meeting in civvies,
or someone working remotely don't really count as the "norm".
Right wrong, or otherwise, you'll find verbiage indicating that compliance is mandatory in on that same first page (actually now page 5).
It's been assumed a number of times that the MBU requirement would be removed or changed in the recent revs of 39-1,
yet it wasn't, even with the end-to-end re-write, so clearly NHQ intends it to be there for a reason.
Saying "you can't make me"or "we don't have to" isn't the most productive response in a case like this.
All it takes is the end of a term to cause an issue. Commander 1 is lax in enforcement, his term ends, the new guy runs things by the book and is now the "bad guy",
yet neither CC1 nor the member could be bothered to actually read and comply with simple rules.
Well, like I said, CAP isn't doing itself favors by stating on the recruiting site that SMs don't need to wear a uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2016, 03:27:00 AM
All it takes is the end of a term to cause an issue. Commander 1 is lax in enforcement, his term ends, the new guy runs things by the book and is now the "bad guy",
yet neither CC1 nor the member could be bothered to actually read and comply with simple rules.
OK. I'll order the blues so I can honestly say I have the minimum uniform in my closet collecting dust. Does that make everyone happy? Is someone here getting a commission from Vanguard? Just kidding! LOL
Also, you must have missed my post above in regards to the Wing Conference. Have Conferences always been this relaxed or is this something new at Wing level?
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 31, 2016, 03:29:47 AM
Well, like I said, CAP isn't doing itself favors by stating on the recruiting site that SMs don't need to wear a uniform.
Agreed. While it's the CC's job to make the clarification and distinction, these kinds of statements, which are clearly intended to
try and "soften" initial expectations, don't actually accomplish the goal, and probably actually work against it.
The inconsistency of member experience and expectation is a huge problem in regards to retention. Similar organizations
tell the membership what they will wear, and let the chips fall. With that said in the same way that there isn't really any other organization like
CAP, there isn't really another that is a schizophrenic about it's appearance and expectations.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AM
OK. I'll order the blues so I can honestly say I have the minimum uniform in my closet collecting dust.
Or, you could buy the aviator shirt, which is much cheaper, and actually wear it. ;)
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AM
Also, you must have missed my post above in regards to the Wing Conference. Have Conferences always been this relaxed or is this something new at Wing level?
Most wings actually required attendees to wear either the AF-style service uniform or the corporate aviator shirt uniform.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 03:36:12 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AM
Also, you must have missed my post above in regards to the Wing Conference. Have Conferences always been this relaxed or is this something new at Wing level?
Most wings actually required attendees to wear either the AF-style service uniform or the corporate aviator shirt uniform.
So .... maybe the wind is shifting? As I said, it'll help attendance and retention. All is good.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AM
OK. I'll order the blues so I can honestly say I have the minimum uniform in my closet collecting dust.
Or, as an option, you could wear it properly.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AM
Also, you must have missed my post above in regards to the Wing Conference. Have Conferences always been this relaxed or is this something new at Wing level?
It wasn't relevent - the UOD for a single activity doesn't dictate the national policies, or even indicate a trend. That was just as likely the realization by the POC that
if they pressed the uniform issue, attendance would be lower, or that person(s) may have a preference themselves.
There's a difference between allowing an authorized uniform in a given circumstance, and that uniform being the minimum required.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 03:36:12 AM
Or, you could buy the aviator shirt, which is much cheaper, and actually wear it. ;)
Polo is more comfortable and I don't have to worry about starching and ironing and having folks criticize if I'm wrinkled. ;)
I haven't flown an actual SAR Mission yet, but if I ever do, one thing I'm sure of. The folks on the ground hoping to be found don't give a flying flip what the folks in the airplane are wearing.
(With that I'll quickly sign off and go hide under a rock.)
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:48:02 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 03:36:12 AM
Or, you could buy the aviator shirt, which is much cheaper, and actually wear it. ;)
Polo is more comfortable and I don't have to worry about starching and ironing and having folks criticize if I'm wrinkled. ;)
I haven't flown an actual SAR Mission yet, but if I ever do, one thing I'm sure of. The folks on the ground hoping to be found don't give a flying flip what the folks in the airplane are wearing.
(With that I'll quickly sign off and go hide under a rock.)
No one said you had to wear the Aviator shirt when flying, but that's not all CAP does. There are times when a more formal uniform is appropriate.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 04:02:12 AM
There are times when a more formal uniform is appropriate.
Yes, and thats the bottom line I suppose. I have the uniforms I need to participate in the areas of CAP I'm involved in. Other folks are interested in other areas and may want to advance in grade and work at Wing level, etc., so certainly they will have different uniform needs. To each his own and may all be happy in their endeavors.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 04:09:48 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 04:02:12 AM
There are times when a more formal uniform is appropriate.
Yes, and thats the bottom line I suppose. I have the uniforms I need to participate in the areas of CAP I'm involved in. Other folks are interested in other areas and may want to advance in grade and work at Wing level, etc., so certainly they will have different uniform needs. To each his own and may all be happy in their endeavors.
Point --->>> whoooosh.
You.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:32:58 AMAlso, you must have missed my post above in regards to the Wing Conference. Have Conferences always been this relaxed or is this something new at Wing level?
Every wing conference I've been to in my wing has allowed the polo uniform and typically it's the most popular. In fact, every CAP activity I attend, nearly everyone is in the polo uniform. A couple of times during joint training with state officials it was actually the required uniform. There is usually a small smattering of aviator shirts/BBDU, usually folks who really care about rank. Only a small few wear blues/BDUs, they tend to be folks with serious interest in the military but didn't serve (and usually have the same fondness for rank).
The wing commander and a few on staff usually wear blues. One told me that they bought the getup for national meetings and figured they'd get their money's worth out of 'em. Made sense to me.
I've never seen anyone be treated differently for the uniform they wear. It's a pretty good arrangement, everyone gets to wear what they prefer and get the job done.
I'm not sure why our regulations require a uniform to be bought that is never needed to be worn. You should never waste a volunteer's time or money.
The blank grey shoulder marks aren't nearly as bad as the blank dark blue ones that GS-05/07 Customs and Border Protection Officers are required to wear on a dark blue uniform.
To further clarify my earlier statement (sorry but that is what happens when you make a post after a VERY long day). I am NOT telling my new Senior Members to violate any CAP regulation. CAPM 39-1 does not set a timeline for purchasing uniforms. I tell my new members to get the polo simply because it is cheap and easy. I want to get them in the door and active and then they can choose what uniform they wish to purchase by the time their first promotion comes up. We do promotion ceremonies for everyone (cadets and Senior Members) and everyone is either in blues or aviator shirt. We don't promote people wearing BDUs (except for the Curry). We don't promote people wearing just the polo either.
My reason for this approach? It was a group decision among the Senior Members. It was decided that the polo (we also encourage that the person get their name embroidered on it too) is that it is easy to maintain and you don't have to try and figure out where to put the name tag. It was also done so people wouldn't have to purchase the blank shoulder boards and only use them for a few months. As many others have stated here, the polo shirt is an acceptable uniform for nearly all CAP activities (meetings, flying, training events, conferences, etc.) so we start them off slow and work up to the more formal uniforms.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 03:20:41 AM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 31, 2016, 03:18:08 AM
Someone should update the FAQ here:
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/ (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/adults_faq/)
QuoteDo I have to wear a uniform?
Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms. However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform. You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard. www.civilairpatrolstore.com (http://www.civilairpatrolstore.com).
Now, perhaps this is simply a distinction without a difference, but it sure lends the impression that one can join CAP as a SM and not wear a uniform, which would then make it follow that one wouldn't need to keep a uniform one would never wear in inventory.
Perhaps the FAQ should be updated?
I was told I could be a member without a uniform, but if I wanted to get in the plane or work with Cadets, I needed to at least get the polo uniform. So I did. Done deal. :)
I honestly believe that the MBU section should be amended to permit the polo as an MBU. It makes zero sense to demand that someone buy a uniform (ie. the blues or whites) that they will never use just to be compliant with an obscure section of the uniform manual.
That said, the obscure section exists, and until changed, it is what it is.
It amazes me how members and leaders still thumb their nose at regs and lack of care factor. Personally if I was a CC I wouldn't be allowing any of my members participate outside of unit activities if they can't follow the simple uni rules.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
It amazes me how members and leaders still thumb their nose at regs and lack of care factor. Personally if I was a CC I wouldn't be allowing any of my members participate outside of unit activities if they can't follow the simple uni rules.
It amazes me how members and leaders still have regulations on the books for the sole purpose of having them on the books, with no discernible benefit from having them. Personally, if I were a CC, I'd be up-channeling a request to have the manual changed. If regs have no discernible benefit to the members or mission, they should be set aside at the earliest opportunity.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:14:50 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
It amazes me how members and leaders still thumb their nose at regs and lack of care factor. Personally if I was a CC I wouldn't be allowing any of my members participate outside of unit activities if they can't follow the simple uni rules.
It amazes me how members and leaders still have regulations on the books for the sole purpose of having them on the books, with no discernible benefit from having them. Personally, if I were a CC, I'd be up-channeling a request to have the manual changed. If regs have no discernible benefit to the members or mission, they should be set aside at the earliest opportunity.
Feel free to you know the process if you feel that strongly about it.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:14:50 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
It amazes me how members and leaders still thumb their nose at regs and lack of care factor. Personally if I was a CC I wouldn't be allowing any of my members participate outside of unit activities if they can't follow the simple uni rules.
It amazes me how members and leaders still have regulations on the books for the sole purpose of having them on the books, with no discernible benefit from having them. Personally, if I were a CC, I'd be up-channeling a request to have the manual changed. If regs have no discernible benefit to the members or mission, they should be set aside at the earliest opportunity.
Feel free to you know the process if you feel that strongly about it.
Just out of curiosity, what is the benefit to the members or mission of the requirement?
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:16:22 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:14:50 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
It amazes me how members and leaders still thumb their nose at regs and lack of care factor. Personally if I was a CC I wouldn't be allowing any of my members participate outside of unit activities if they can't follow the simple uni rules.
It amazes me how members and leaders still have regulations on the books for the sole purpose of having them on the books, with no discernible benefit from having them. Personally, if I were a CC, I'd be up-channeling a request to have the manual changed. If regs have no discernible benefit to the members or mission, they should be set aside at the earliest opportunity.
Feel free to you know the process if you feel that strongly about it.
Just out of curiosity, what is the benefit to the members or mission of the requirement?
I can give you a few things that I see but it's a matter of personal opinion.
As an even dumber concequence of the Minimum Basic Uniform rule...say you have tatoos or some unsighly injury on your arm. You would prefer to wear the long-sleeve version of the Aviator, right? You may, but you are REQUIRED to have the short-sleeve version in your closet to meet the regulation.
So, for those commanders demanding compliance with this, do you check for that, or do you permit people to just own the long-sleeve version?
Have you seen Para 3.2.6 and 3.2.6.1? This addresses tattoos. And injuries come into a different realm.
Commanders and members are required to adhere to and enforce 39-1.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 31, 2016, 02:40:50 PM
Have you seen Para 3.2.6 and 3.2.6.1? This addresses tattoos. And injuries come into a different realm.
Commanders and members are required to adhere to and enforce 39-1.
Yes, I have...
Quote3.2.6.1. Tattoos/Brands/Body Markings (Inappropriate Contents or Excessive). Excessive
tattoos/brands/body markings will not be exposed or visible (includes visible through the uniform) while
wearing any/all uniform combination(s)
However...if you have tattoos on your forearms, you are REQUIRED by 1.2.1 to own and maintain for wear the short-sleeve blues or aviator, even though 3.2.6.1 forbids you from wearing it. And you, as a commander, need to enforce that, right?
The reason the corporate working uniform (polo) has become the default uniform for many senior members and units is because many commanders have been flexing uniform wear norms. If a member can wear the polo to nearly every CAP activity or function, then what's the purpose of buying another uniform?
Many wings still require members to wear the AF-style service uniform or corporate aviator shirt uniform for PD courses (SLS, CLC, TLC, etc.), Wing Conferences, and Commander's Calls. Members participating in these events will see the benefit of owning these minimum basic uniforms. It's up to commanders at every level to not only enforce regulations, but to set the right expectations and standards. No one is going to buy the MBU if they don't see the need for it.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 03:08:11 PM
No one is going to buy the MBU if they don't see the need for it.
And that's why they should fix the regulation and not declare those who don't buy it out-of-compliance for a regulation that really serves no purpose.
My proposal has been drafted and is in the Wing/CCs inbox.
When I was a Squadron Commander, the Polo shirt was never authorized on the UOD list. it was either Blues/BDU's and the corporate equivalent. I'd actually like for the Polo combination to be removed entirely.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 03:08:11 PM
The reason the corporate working uniform (polo) has become the default uniform for many senior members and units is because many commanders have been flexing uniform wear norms. If a member can wear the polo to nearly every CAP activity or function, then what's the purpose of buying another uniform?
Many wings still require members to wear the AF-style service uniform or corporate aviator shirt uniform for PD courses (SLS, CLC, TLC, etc.), Wing Conferences, and Commander's Calls. Members participating in these events will see the benefit of owning these minimum basic uniforms. It's up to commanders at every level to not only enforce regulations, but to set the right expectations and standards. No one is going to buy the MBU if they don't see the need for it.
Or it ends up like every other event. Stern warning of "NO POLOS!" And then at least 5-10% of members show up in polos, aren't told a single thing, and then the next day more people say "forget it" and show up in polos.
I've seen it at PD courses. I've seen it at conferences. Nothing like driving 3+ hours to a conference, in G/Ws, only to see the "locals" wearing polos, when they were specifically not mentioned as UOD.
If the simple uniform regs are not being followed, what else is being glossed over? We wear uniforms here. Follow those rules or move on.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
As an even dumber concequence of the Minimum Basic Uniform rule...say you have tatoos or some unsighly injury on your arm. You would prefer to wear the long-sleeve version of the Aviator, right? You may, but you are REQUIRED to have the short-sleeve version in your closet to meet the regulation.
So, for those commanders demanding compliance with this, do you check for that, or do you permit people to just own the long-sleeve version?
I've always interpreted the MBU this way-the S/S shirt is listed as the minimum service uniform requirement b/c it's the simplest uniform option; no tie and no coat required. So if someone wanted to own and wear the L/S shirt (and tie) in lieu of the S/S all the time (when this uniform is appropriate), that would be in compliance because it's more than the minimum required.
(This is my opinion only.)Either way, I have a S/S and a L/S USAF-shirt, along with a polo and a flight suit. No BDU's. I like having the choice of alternating what I wear for meetings, always keeping in mind what we're doing for that meeting and adjusting my uniform choices appropriately.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
If the simple uniform regs are not being followed, what else is being glossed over? We wear uniforms here. Follow those rules or move on.
OK, if it's that simple:
Do you/would you demand that members who have visible tattoos that prohibit them wearing the short-sleeve uniforms buy the short sleeve uniform in order to be in compliance?
A regulation that demands that people buy something that they are forbidden from utilizing needs changing.
Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 31, 2016, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
As an even dumber concequence of the Minimum Basic Uniform rule...say you have tatoos or some unsighly injury on your arm. You would prefer to wear the long-sleeve version of the Aviator, right? You may, but you are REQUIRED to have the short-sleeve version in your closet to meet the regulation.
So, for those commanders demanding compliance with this, do you check for that, or do you permit people to just own the long-sleeve version?
I've always interpreted the MBU this way-the S/S shirt is listed as the minimum service uniform requirement b/c it's the simplest uniform option; no tie and no coat required. So if someone wanted to own and wear the L/S shirt (and tie) in lieu of the S/S all the time (when this uniform is appropriate), that would be in compliance because it's more than the minimum required. (This is my opinion only.)
Either way, I have a S/S and a L/S USAF-shirt, along with a polo and a flight suit. No BDU's. I like having the choice of alternating what I wear for meetings, always keeping in mind what we're doing for that meeting and adjusting my uniform choices appropriately.
Unfortunately, the MBU regulation is clear that the long-sleeve is not an acceptable alternative...short sleeve is specified.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the
Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets
authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style
uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform
with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and
older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style
Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
If the simple uniform regs are not being followed, what else is being glossed over? We wear uniforms here. Follow those rules or move on.
OK, if it's that simple:
Do you/would you demand that members who have visible tattoos that prohibit them wearing the short-sleeve uniforms buy the short sleeve uniform in order to be in compliance?
A regulation that demands that people buy something that they are forbidden from utilizing needs changing.
According to the KB the ink rules apply to the USAF uni. Wear the aviator. Dont look for problems that dont need solving.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 04:35:29 PM
A regulation that demands that people buy something that they are forbidden from utilizing needs changing.
I think you'll find a lot of agreement here, but CAP Talk is cheap. Write a proposal and send it up the chain.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 04:37:27 PM
Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 31, 2016, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 31, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
As an even dumber concequence of the Minimum Basic Uniform rule...say you have tatoos or some unsighly injury on your arm. You would prefer to wear the long-sleeve version of the Aviator, right? You may, but you are REQUIRED to have the short-sleeve version in your closet to meet the regulation.
So, for those commanders demanding compliance with this, do you check for that, or do you permit people to just own the long-sleeve version?
I've always interpreted the MBU this way-the S/S shirt is listed as the minimum service uniform requirement b/c it's the simplest uniform option; no tie and no coat required. So if someone wanted to own and wear the L/S shirt (and tie) in lieu of the S/S all the time (when this uniform is appropriate), that would be in compliance because it's more than the minimum required. (This is my opinion only.)
Either way, I have a S/S and a L/S USAF-shirt, along with a polo and a flight suit. No BDU's. I like having the choice of alternating what I wear for meetings, always keeping in mind what we're doing for that meeting and adjusting my uniform choices appropriately.
Unfortunately, the MBU regulation is clear that the long-sleeve is not an acceptable alternative...short sleeve is specified.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the
Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets
authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style
uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and
older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style
Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.
I think that's a fair point. But here's what I know, if there was a member who always wore a long-sleeve shirt and tie, followd regulations, and looked sharp every time, if the commander told him that he was out of compliance, and not following regulations, and needed to be disciplined, corrected, or some other corrective action taken, because he never wore his short sleeve shirt, and therefore never proved that he owned the short sleeve shirt uniform. I think that would cause a problem that isn't really a problem.
Again, I think we need to think of the "why" behind the "what" so that the information we provide to members passes the common-sense test.
Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 31, 2016, 04:58:20 PM
I think that's a fair point. But here's what I know, if there was a member who always wore a long-sleeve shirt and tie, followd regulations, and looked sharp every time, if the commander told him that he was out of compliance, and not following regulations, and needed to be disciplined, corrected, or some other corrective action taken, because he never wore his short sleeve shirt, and therefore never proved that he owned the short sleeve shirt uniform. I think that would cause a problem that isn't really a problem.
I think that's a fair point. But here's what I know, if there was a member who always wore the polo, followed regulations, and looked sharp every time, if the commander told him that he was out of compliance and not following regulations, and needed to be disciplined, corrected, or some other corrective action taken, because he never wore his short sleeve blues, and therefore never proved that he owned it. I think that would cause a problem that isn't really a problem.
No different.
That wouldn't be a problem under most circumstances. But if the UOD is short sleeves because, for whatever reason, uniformity is required, then the member would need to wear a short sleeve shirt.
Funny thing, I always read that as the minimum for the uniform. You had to have this "or more", sometimes instead (long sleeves vs. short sleeves), but basically you have to a form of the dress uniform. If you want to go full on and go "class A", good for you. If you have tattoos or just prefer long sleeves, better have a tie, but good for you. If you are wanting Corp, great! Just the SS Blue? Great! ETC.
But you have to have something to "pin" your stuff onto. Ever try to "promote" a person in a polo? The grey slides don't stay on. >:D
I know a lot of people that don't have full service dress uniforms, and that is great, but you should have something. And come on, if you are wearing a Polo, just spend the $20.00 for a SS Aviator, the $3.80 for the nameplate, and the $9.20 for the grade. If we loose you over ~$30.00, wow. I thought that was one of the point of the Corporate uniforms, low cost, low requirements, not a lot to buy.
Back to the OP, our squadron has a supply of the blanks, and yes, they are just handed out and returned. We have a number of different grades slides, and if you hand in a 2d Lt slide for a 1st Lt slide, we are all good. Lots of officers have donated their old slides.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
If the simple uniform regs are not being followed, what else is being glossed over?
By my wearing the more casual polo uniform, I'm able to concentrate and spend more time pre-flighting the airplane, instead of worrying whether my shoes are shined enough or whether i have everything on my shirt correctly, etc. ;)
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
Follow those rules or move on.
I do. I wear the polo.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
We wear uniforms here.
"WE" ...... and thats been addressed on an earlier page in this thread by some of us. We have a broad spectrum of members in this civil organization. Each with their own goals and desires.
Some are just happy doing their tech or other jobs and like to stay in their corner of the organization. Simple, basic polo or whatever they like, works just fine for them.
Others are into the structure of CAP and want to move up the 'corporate ladder'. So, having the full compliment of uniform selections, badges, name plates, etc., etc. its very important to them and their progress. Its all wonderful for them.
"WE" .... are a varied and diverse organization of volunteers. IMHO ... keeping that in mind might help with retention issues. Its all good.
Quote from: Papabird on March 31, 2016, 05:31:37 PM
But you have to have something to "pin" your stuff onto.
Thats the point I'm making. There are those who don't need or want the 'stuff'. Its great for those who do. But I'm happy just being a "SM".
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 05:31:37 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
If the simple uniform regs are not being followed, what else is being glossed over?
By my wearing the more casual polo uniform, I'm able to concentrate and spend more time pre-flighting the airplane, instead of worrying whether my shoes are shined enough or whether i have everything on my shirt correctly, etc. ;)
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
Follow those rules or move on.
I do. I wear the polo.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
We wear uniforms here.
"WE" ...... and thats been addressed on an earlier page in this thread by some of us. We have a broad spectrum of members in this civil organization. Each with their own goals and desires.
Some are just happy doing their tech or other jobs and like to stay in their corner of the organization. Simple, basic polo or whatever they like, works just fine for them.
Others are into the structure of CAP and want to move up the 'corporate ladder'. So, having the full compliment of uniform selections, badges, name plates, etc., etc. its very important to them and their progress. Its all wonderful for them.
"WE" .... are a varied and diverse organization of volunteers. IMHO ... keeping that in mind might help with retention issues. Its all good.
Horsehockey. Justify your disregard for maintaining the minimum any way you want but it is still wrong. You are required to have the minimum basic uniform and it isnt the polo.
(http://i.imgflip.com/11qlpe.jpg)
A better meme was never generated. Kudos to my comrade in the west...
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 05:42:12 PMYou are required to have the minimum basic uniform and it isnt the polo.
I ordered it last night. It'll be in my closet by next week if anyone ever wants to come see it and verify its there in my possession.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 05:42:12 PMYou are required to have the minimum basic uniform and it isnt the polo.
I ordered it last night. It'll be in my closet by next week if anyone ever wants to come see it and verify its there in my possession.
Why not try it out once or twice?
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 05:42:12 PMYou are required to have the minimum basic uniform and it isnt the polo.
I ordered it last night. It'll be in my closet by next week if anyone ever wants to come see it and verify its there in my possession.
So when your commander sets the uniform of the day you will wear it or ignore the order? Based on your previous posts you will do what you want. Excellent example for the cadets you claim to want to mentor.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 06:11:07 PM
So when your commander sets the uniform of the day you will wear it or ignore the order?
Good point. I've never heard of or participated in an 'event' where the Commander set a "Uniform of the Day". I guess if he specified dress blues, then I would just have to skip that event.
But goes back to a post a few pages ago in regards to this weekends Wing Conference. The Wing set the uniform requirements for the day in several ways, such that anyone with just polo could still participate in all activities. If they had set anything else ... I guess I would have missed the rubber chicken dinner.
As to Cadets ... this thread was talking about Seniors. Who I see totally different than Cadets. As senior members (at least here locally) we do not march, have inspections, etc., etc. Cadets are wholly different in how they are run, and what you see me saying in this thread I "never" would say to Cadets at a meeting. The meticulous nature of uniforms and inspections and more, is teaching them attention to detail, respect for those grades above them, and hundreds of other things. Its all apples and oranges to my personal involvement.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 06:11:07 PM
So when your commander sets the uniform of the day you will wear it or ignore the order?
Good point. I've never heard of or participated in an 'event' where the Commander set a "Uniform of the Day". I guess if he specified dress blues, then I would just have to skip that event.
But goes back to a post a few pages ago in regards to this weekends Wing Conference. The Wing set the uniform requirements for the day in several ways, such that anyone with just polo could still participate in all activities. If they had set anything else ... I guess I would have missed the rubber chicken dinner.
As to Cadets ... this thread was talking about Seniors. Who I see totally different than Cadets. As senior members (at least here locally) we do not march, have inspections, etc., etc. Cadets are wholly different in how they are run, and what you see me saying in this thread I "never" would say to Cadets at a meeting. The meticulous nature of uniforms and inspections and more, is teaching them attention to detail, respect for those grades above them, and hundreds of other things. Its all apples and oranges to my personal involvement.
You are so against putting on gray slacks and a white shirt or blue slacks and a light blue shirt that you will skip excellent training? That's crazy!
My question to you still stands, why not try it out?!
(Because heaven forbid the cadets learning attention to detail will see you, their leader, doing the same things)
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 06:25:59 PM
As to Cadets ... this thread was talking about Seniors. Who I see totally different than Cadets. As senior members (at least here locally) we do not march, have inspections, etc., etc. Cadets are wholly different in how they are run, and what you see me saying in this thread I "never" would say to Cadets at a meeting. The meticulous nature of uniforms and inspections and more, is teaching them attention to detail, respect for those grades above them, and hundreds of other things. Its all apples and oranges to my personal involvement.
Cadets read CT.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
(http://i.imgflip.com/11qlpe.jpg)
So, ABU's are mandatory now?
Very witty, and yet it does not provide any information about actual benefits to the member or mission.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 31, 2016, 06:11:07 PM
So when your commander sets the uniform of the day you will wear it or ignore the order?
Good point. I've never heard of or participated in an 'event' where the Commander set a "Uniform of the Day". I guess if he specified dress blues, then I would just have to skip that event.
But goes back to a post a few pages ago in regards to this weekends Wing Conference. The Wing set the uniform requirements for the day in several ways, such that anyone with just polo could still participate in all activities. If they had set anything else ... I guess I would have missed the rubber chicken dinner.
As to Cadets ... this thread was talking about Seniors. Who I see totally different than Cadets. As senior members (at least here locally) we do not march, have inspections, etc., etc. Cadets are wholly different in how they are run, and what you see me saying in this thread I "never" would say to Cadets at a meeting. The meticulous nature of uniforms and inspections and more, is teaching them attention to detail, respect for those grades above them, and hundreds of other things. Its all apples and oranges to my personal involvement.
Perfect example of do as I say, not as I do.
Quote from: NCRblues on March 31, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
My question to you still stands, why not try it out?!
Why would he? It provides zero benefit to him.
Part of the whole regulation reengineering is to remove regulatory mandates that serve no purpose.
Quote from: NCRblues on March 31, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
You are so against putting on gray slacks and a white shirt or blue slacks and a light blue shirt that you will skip excellent training? That's crazy!
I haven't missed any training, and don't see any in the foreseeable future that I might miss.
Quote from: NCRblues on March 31, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
My question to you still stands, why not try it out?!
Because someone would wind up walking up to me as I got out of a plane .... and start jumping on me for my name tag being crooked, or I didn't have all the correct buttons done, or I was looking a bit wrinkled, etc. etc. ...
A Squadron lost a very good pilot and educator awhile back for just that type of situation. SAREX completed successfully and some high ranking fella in Blues on the tarmac didn't like how the pilot's uniform looked when he got out of the plane. The pilot stood there and took it as the guy railed on him .. and then never returned. You might say 'good riddance' ..... but I think the wrong per on left CAP in that circumstance.
To each his own. As I said earlier, I ordered the minimum uniform so that I'm legal with the regs. All is good. :)
And they should. And one should question if you should be flying a CAP aircraft if you can't master the simple tasks needed to wear the Gray and White uniforms.
I know you are just trying to be "that guy"...but really. Give it a rest.
You are perfectly fine wearing the polos at CAP.....unless your chain of command says "everyone in blues or gray and whites." In which case you have to put them on....because thems the rules.
Just like getting a flight release or a CAPF 5....thems the rules.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 07:10:30 PM
Just like getting a flight release or a CAPF 5....thems the rules.
Nah, c'mon, there's more important things than jibber jabbering with the FRO or filling out paperwork. Don't you know? We've got missions to complete. We ain't got time for none of that pro-see-dure-none-sense!
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 07:10:30 PM
You are perfectly fine wearing the polos at CAP.....unless your chain of command says "everyone in blues or gray and whites." In which case you have to put them on....because thems the rules.
Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone is saying they show up at something in a polo even if the polo isn't allowed. Fortunately in my wing that's never an issue. I've only seen uniform restrictions twice, one when the polo was
required for working a special multi-agency drill and once when we had an activity with Air Force pilots where we were told no flight suits (that only affected a couple of folks and I believe they all adhered to the UOD requirements).
I feel like for those of you that keep arguing we need a MBU just don't get that there are CAP environments where there is simply no need for a MBU. That means you're wasting a volunteer's money, and that's not good. I haven't needed anything but a polo to work at mission base, to fly, to attend training courses, or even get promoted. I haven't missed out on a single thing I wanted to do and I've been 100% compliant with the uniform rules and UOD set by the activity director, IC, or CC. Yet the rules say I have to buy a uniform that I'll never need and never wear. Talk about waste.
I got a aviator shirt from a pilot friend and some rank deals from someone who left cap. I just had to buy the name tag - but it's still wasted money.
I agree...that there are times where the MBU is not needed or appropriate.
But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.
Since we want a basic uniform that everyone must possess....CAP decided that the MBU (USAF short sleeve blues or Gray and Whites) was decided upon.
That uniform is appropriate for 99% of the things CAP does.
Ergo....it is not a waste of money.
Now....you can argue that maybe the Polo and gray is a better MBU........all you got to do is make the suggestion up the chain to the NUC.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 31, 2016, 07:44:58 PM
Quote from: Fubar on March 31, 2016, 07:40:55 PM
or even get promoted.
Why even bother?
Why not? Got a hardy handshake at a monthly exercise and jokes about more zeros on the pay check. I did my 6 months, I didn't see any reason to fight the promotion.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.
Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.
QuoteSince we want a basic uniform that everyone must possess....CAP decided that the MBU (USAF short sleeve blues or Gray and Whites) was decided upon.
I'm with you here. It may be time for CAP to reconsider what the MBU should be given the photographic evidence from around the country of what the member preference is. In fact, I bet they have vanguard sales information that shows it too.
QuoteThat uniform is appropriate for 99% of the things CAP does.
So is the polo. In fact, especially when it comes to ES and interacting with outside agencies, it's more appropriate than the current MBU.
QuoteErgo....it is not a waste of money.
The polo is cheaper and appropriate in at least one more instance than the MBU, so I'm leaning towards waste of money.
QuoteNow....you can argue that maybe the Polo and gray is a better MBU........all you got to do is make the suggestion up the chain to the NUC.
This is really a kind way of saying, "ha ha, you're screwed." Yes, the CAPM 39-1 says have a MBU, so I do. We both know I have a better chance of finding a unicorn crapping gold bricks than a proposal even reaching someone on the NUC. I still think it's wrong to force a volunteer to buy a uniform that they'll never need or wear. I get that it works out for Vanguard and maybe folks who hate the polo shirt get a warm feeling knowing they've made me buy something I don't want. I've just never heard of another organization that makes people buy clothes they don't need.
Quote from: Fubar on March 31, 2016, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.
Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.
Define "rare instance". We wear the MBU equivalent uniform for at least 1/2-3/4 of my unit meetings, and there's a UOD set for everything.
Also, "minimum" means the lowest, not the only. Obviously if you have a long-sleeve version of the whites or blues, which requires a tie and is therefore
"more" then the minimum, you've met the mandate. Trying to argue around that or inferring that increases the mandate for "1% or 1%"
is just a silly attempt to "win the internet" Good luck with that.
We do set the UOD for every CAP activity.
Sometimes Polos are allowed. Sometimes the Gray and Whites are mandatory.
The white aviator shirt...while available from Vanguard does not have to be purchase from there. So your suggesting it is just some "let's give some money to vanguard" conspiracy is not even close.
I will have to agree to disagree with you on the polo being more appropriate when working with outside agencies....but as I said before if you feel that way then send up your suggestion to the NUC.
Bottom line here........39-1 says Every member must own the MBU. Anyone who does not is in violation. Any commander who is telling their people they don't have buy it are in violation.
In my opinion it is not a waste of money. If your wing is doing things right you will need the MBU for PD classes, conferences, working with cadets, and a lot more. If your wing is not.......then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG! There I said it!
No amount of trying to justify anything else but requiring MBU is IGNORING the regulations.
While I agree there is a time and place for that......you always start from the stand point of "we are busting regs here....and this is why".
And you are wrong about member pushed ideas reaching the NUC.
I personally have had my suggestions make it up the chain and get accepted by the NUC.
I know that the NUC does in fact seek advice and ideas from the field.
I do know that if you don't try...then you will of course fail.
So.....fish or cut bait.
[/rant]
Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
Quote from: Fubar on March 31, 2016, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.
Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.
Define "rare instance". We wear the MBU equivalent uniform for at least 1/2-3/4 of my unit meetings, and there's a UOD set for everything.
Also, "minimum" means the lowest, not the only. Obviously if you have a long-sleeve version of the whites or blues, which requires a tie and is there
for "more" then the minimum, you've met the mandate. Trying to argue around that is just trying to "win the internet" Good luck with that.
Yea, but you're probably one of those non-prior service, promotion obsessed wannabe.
/S
I own the AF-style short sleeve and long sleeve service uniforms, service dress, mess dress, BDU, FDU, and corporate working uniform (polo) with gray trousers and cargo pants. Except for the mess dress and FDU, which I only wear on occasion, I wear all my uniforms frequently. I've found that, while I can wear the polo to most CAP functions, it's not always the most appropriate uniform.
Now, I don't disagree that, depending on the unit or wing, a member can get by with the polo most of the time. But to say that the aviator shirt is a waste of money is simply not true. There are plenty of activities and functions where the aviator shirt uniform is very appropriate, more so than the polo. Owning both the aviator shirt and polo would meet nearly 100% of a member's uniform needs. However, as it stands today, the aviator shirt meets the MBU requirement while the polo does not.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 31, 2016, 08:46:04 PM
Now, I don't disagree that, depending on the unit or wing, a member can get by with the polo most of the time. But to say that the aviator shirt is a waste of money is simply not true. There are plenty of activities and functions where the aviator shirt uniform is very appropriate, more so than the polo. Owning both the aviator shirt and polo would meet nearly 100% of a member's uniform needs. However, as it stands today, the aviator shirt meets the MBU requirement while the polo does not.
99.9% of their needs. There is that less than one percent for formal wear. But you can always just wear civilian formal attire.
The point is while the polo can be worn at many CAP activities (both internal and external) the number of CAP activities where the MBU should not be worn are very little. Sure going to ICS 300 and 400 where everyone else is in polos......there is no reason why we can't be in MBU.
In fact about the only places where the MBU is cannot be worn IMHO is where full service or formal dress is required.
[/rant]
I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.
Cadets are a whole different matter. I hope they keep going as is, in the similar ROTC tradition.
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 09:18:12 PM
I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.
Seriously....Are you Radioman?
I don't know Radioman.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 31, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2016, 09:18:12 PM
I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.
Seriously....Are you Radioman?
Come on, he's entitled to his opinion and has shared it without being disrespectful. And, who know? Maybe he's right. That's also been my experience with some senior squadrons.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 30, 2016, 10:31:35 PM
Quote from: supertigerCH on March 30, 2016, 10:25:54 PM
TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.
Its very true a person could solve any of the uniform problems by just not wearing a uniform. However, if we're going to resort to this as a solution... then why bother to make a rule at all... saying that SMWOG must wear the empty epaulets?
If the "only 6 month" time frame (some members take longer than this) makes an issue not important enough... to pen policies that make the most sense... then why have any uniform rules in the first 6 months? We could just issue uniforms to 2nd Lieutenants then (not that this is an idea that I'm pushing for... but this is where we can end up if we push this line of thinking all the way to its end result).
I must congratulate CAP overall though... on the fact that uniforms are much more professional & better looking now, than they have been in some years past.
Thanks for sharing all your ideas on this everyone. good discussion, and much appreciated!
If you want to be promoted, you learn to wear your uniform properly during that 6 months, not buy it after.
Polo shirt? I don't play polo.
Quote from: supertigerCH on March 30, 2016, 10:25:54 PM
Perhaps I can stand to be corrected, but as far as I know... no branch of the U.S. military does this (and although CAP is not the military... even our "patron service" the Air Force... whom our uniforms are supposed to emulate... does not do anything like this "empty epaulet " on their uniforms -- even with officer candidates).
West Point does this with their freshmen. They have completely blank shoulder marks until they become recognized right before sophomore year.
(http://i.imgur.com/BWkY2eZ.jpg)
Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2016, 08:14:08 PMIn my opinion it is not a waste of money. If your wing is doing things right you will need the MBU for PD classes, conferences, working with cadets, and a lot more. If your wing is not.......then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG! There I said it!
I see your point, but here "wrong" is defined by your personal opinion and not any regulatory requirements by CAP. So the folks in charge around here have an opinion different than you, which makes the MBU a waste of money. If I worked for you at your squadron, then I'd either not be in CAP or wearing the MBU a heckava lot more.
Perhaps that will be the proposal I send up the chain, to make a minor change to CAPM 39-1 which already essentially says the polo shirt is equivalent to the MBU (I've bolded the change):
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1The Corporate Working Uniform may be worn in a flying, field or mission setting or meetings and training courses when the USAF-style Class B or Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform would be worn.
There's your 99%. Perhaps if I mention I know lordmonar the NUC will read the proposed change ;)
No wrong is defined by the regulations.
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 01, 2016, 03:51:30 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on March 30, 2016, 10:25:54 PM
Perhaps I can stand to be corrected, but as far as I know... no branch of the U.S. military does this (and although CAP is not the military... even our "patron service" the Air Force... whom our uniforms are supposed to emulate... does not do anything like this "empty epaulet " on their uniforms -- even with officer candidates).
West Point does this with their freshmen. They have completely blank shoulder marks until they become recognized right before sophomore year.
(http://i.imgur.com/BWkY2eZ.jpg)
Good example HGjunkie ( [if it's true that West Point new cadets do this]... in showing that at least some organization out there might be doing this)
I was referring more to officer candidates (OCS)... who have already begun their active service obligation... rather than cadets (of which there are many types, varieties, and organizations) -- who have not yet actually begun theirs.
good picture of showing that there might be others somewhere in the world who have fallen into this funny practice, which still seems to serve no purpose.
Thanks for making this good point and for sharing / bringing this to light, my friend...
When you consider that senior members without grade used to wear metal CAP cutouts on the collar of their service shirt, then the empty epaulets don't seem like such a bad idea. Now that there's a differentiation between those pursuing officer grades and those pursuing NCO grades, it makes even more sense. The only real argument against them is the potential promotion after six months, but that was the same issue with the CAP cutouts. And the metal cutouts left holes on the shirt.