I was just curious if cadets were allowed to wear the mess dress uniform.
From 39-1:
4.1.1. Men's Mess Dress Uniform (Figure 4.1). This USAF-style uniform may only be worn by
officers and NCOs; it will not be worn by members without rank or cadets.
Cadets generally wear the semi-formal uniform when SMs wear the mess dress
It's been explained by chapter and verse of CAPM 39-1 above. It's a very expensive uniform to obtain for cadets, if it were allowed for wear. As it is for a senior member, if you include the uniform, tailoring and the addition of insignia and miniature medals it runs close to $500 to properly outfit a mess dress uniform.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on February 01, 2016, 09:07:31 AM
It's been explained by chapter and verse of CAPM 39-1 above. It's a very expensive uniform to obtain for cadets, if it were allowed for wear. As it is for a senior member, if you include the uniform, tailoring and the addition of insignia and miniature medals it runs close to $500 to properly outfit a mess dress uniform.
^What he said^.
That's why such a uniform is not and never will be on my shopping list!
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on February 01, 2016, 03:05:16 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on February 01, 2016, 09:07:31 AM
It's been explained by chapter and verse of CAPM 39-1 above. It's a very expensive uniform to obtain for cadets, if it were allowed for wear. As it is for a senior member, if you include the uniform, tailoring and the addition of insignia and miniature medals it runs close to $500 to properly outfit a mess dress uniform.
^What he said^.
That's why such a uniform is not and never will be on my shopping list!
Cheaper to rent a tuxedo. No bling, but much cheaper. And unless you're on wing or region staff, or attend a lot of formal events, you won't use the mess dress often enough to justify the cost. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been somewhere I needed either a tux or the mess dress. Less than 3.
Several years ago I was able to purchase a used but in great shape Mess Dress Uniform on eBay for $60.00. Yes, all the accessories/bling to add up but still it was a bargain as I wear it 3-4 times a year.
Very expensive for such rare as the occasion to wear it.
Quote from: slimshady on February 27, 2016, 08:07:18 PM
Very expensive for such rare as the occasion to wear it.
Different strokes for different folks. If I were allowed to wear the AF-STYLE uniform, I would probably spring for the mess dress, and find occasions to wear it. My barbateness precludes such action.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on February 01, 2016, 09:07:31 AM
It's been explained by chapter and verse of CAPM 39-1 above. It's a very expensive uniform to obtain for cadets, if it were allowed for wear. As it is for a senior member, if you include the uniform, tailoring and the addition of insignia and miniature medals it runs close to $500 to properly outfit a mess dress uniform.
I have yet to attend an event where more than about 5% of the members attending had the uniform. If it were more common I would get one, but as it is that $25 blazer with the $5 clip on bow tie works just fine.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 28, 2016, 03:44:41 AM
Quote from: slimshady on February 27, 2016, 08:07:18 PM
Very expensive for such rare as the occasion to wear it.
Different strokes for different folks. If I were allowed to wear the AF-STYLE uniform, I would probably spring for the mess dress, and find occasions to wear it. My barbateness precludes such action.
If you're "finding" reasons to wear mess dress you're wrong.
It's a tough proposition. The CAP shoulder boards, medals, and seal alone can cost over $200. And that doesn't include the uniform per se.
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
Quote from: slimshady on February 29, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
You do know even AF members pay for their uniforms right? Your me generation sense of entitlement is a trip.
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: slimshady on February 29, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
You do know even AF members pay for their uniforms right? Your me generation sense of entitlement is a trip.
Shhh. Do not use facts.
Yes, I hated the fact that I had to spend a few hundred dollars on BDUs to only have to spend a few hundred dollars more on ACUs not long after that. Then spend a few hundred dollars on my Class A uniform to only spend an additional few hundred dollars more for the new Army Service Uniform.
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 02:28:49 PM
Shhh. Do not use facts.
Yes, I hated the fact that I had to spend a few hundred dollars on BDUs to only have to spend a few hundred dollars more on ACUs not long after that. Then spend a few hundred dollars on my Class A uniform to only spend an additional few hundred dollars more for the new Army Service Uniform.
Over the years I spent a *lot* of dough on CAP uniforms. You know, collected them piece-by-piece: Mess dress, overcoats, service coats, sweaters, lightweight jacket, goretex, flight jackets, etc. As needed and not in a hurry (like from 1989 to 2009). With the various changes in the middle (service coat, BDUs, etc)
In 2006, I got into the Army Cadets, and had to get all my stuff pretty much immediately *bam* holy smokes is this Army stuff is
expensive. Class As, Dress Blues (before ASU was a thing), ACUs, boots, berets, rigger belts, goretex, blah, blah, blah. The expectation level in that organization was *considerably* different there in terms of how you equip yourself: You're an officer, officers are expected to have these uniforms. Make it happen.
In 2009 I retired from CAP and jettisoned all but my G/W and blazer. 2013, I left the Army Cadets and jettisoned all my dress uniforms for a song and a dance.
In 2013, I un-retired from CAP. And cursed my jettison of my uniforms in 2009. But over three years, I've managed to slowly re-equip myself with the necessary bits without going overboard. Mess dress is still stupidly expensive for the number of times a year most people wear it, but now I'm going to more conferences so, you know, it works out. :)
I held off on BDUs initially because "ABUs was right around the corner" and I knew my luck would be that I'd buy a new set of BDUs, stitch up the insignia and the next day ABUs would be announced. Good thing I didn't hold my breath on that one :)
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 02:28:49 PM
Shhh. Do not use facts.
Yes, I hated the fact that I had to spend a few hundred dollars on BDUs to only have to spend a few hundred dollars more on ACUs not long after that. Then spend a few hundred dollars on my Class A uniform to only spend an additional few hundred dollars more for the new Army Service Uniform.
Over the years I spent a *lot* of dough on CAP uniforms. You know, collected them piece-by-piece: Mess dress, overcoats, service coats, sweaters, lightweight jacket, goretex, flight jackets, etc. As needed and not in a hurry (like from 1989 to 2009). With the various changes in the middle (service coat, BDUs, etc)
In 2006, I got into the Army Cadets, and had to get all my stuff pretty much immediately *bam* holy smokes is this Army stuff is expensive. Class As, Dress Blues (before ASU was a thing), ACUs, boots, berets, rigger belts, goretex, blah, blah, blah. The expectation level in that organization was *considerably* different there in terms of how you equip yourself: You're an officer, officers are expected to have these uniforms. Make it happen.
In 2009 I retired from CAP and jettisoned all but my G/W and blazer. 2013, I left the Army Cadets and jettisoned all my dress uniforms for a song and a dance.
In 2013, I un-retired from CAP. And cursed my jettison of my uniforms in 2009. But over three years, I've managed to slowly re-equip myself with the necessary bits without going overboard. Mess dress is still stupidly expensive for the number of times a year most people wear it, but now I'm going to more conferences so, you know, it works out. :)
I held off on BDUs initially because "ABUs was right around the corner" and I knew my luck would be that I'd buy a new set of BDUs, stitch up the insignia and the next day ABUs would be announced. Good thing I didn't hold my breath on that one :)
So if we put together a fund to get you into BDUs, that will guarantee a speedy conversion to ABUs? :D
Quote from: slimshady on February 29, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
Why would the Air Force pay for a mess dress, which is an optional uniform? In fact, all of our AF-style uniforms are optional. The Aviator shirt uniform, which is the only required uniform unless you have and qualify to wear the AF-style short sleeve service uniform, is not that expensive.
Quote from: slimshady on February 29, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
Of course they don't. Why in the world would they? Airmen have to buy their own uniforms too, you know. (Unless you count initial clothing issue during BMT ... say, there's an idea. Why not join the Air Force?)
Jack
Quote
In 2006, I got into the Army Cadets, and had to get all my stuff pretty much immediately *bam* holy smokes is this Army stuff is expensive. Class As, Dress Blues (before ASU was a thing), ACUs, boots, berets, rigger belts, goretex, blah, blah, blah. The expectation level in that organization was *considerably* different there in terms of how you equip yourself: You're an officer, officers are expected to have these uniforms. Make it happen.
Is the Army Cadets organization even still around?
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on February 29, 2016, 07:59:31 PM
Quote
In 2006, I got into the Army Cadets, and had to get all my stuff pretty much immediately *bam* holy smokes is this Army stuff is expensive. Class As, Dress Blues (before ASU was a thing), ACUs, boots, berets, rigger belts, goretex, blah, blah, blah. The expectation level in that organization was *considerably* different there in terms of how you equip yourself: You're an officer, officers are expected to have these uniforms. Make it happen.
Is the Army Cadets organization even still around?
Jack
According to wiki it has reorganized under a new name.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on February 29, 2016, 05:54:30 PM
So if we put together a fund to get you into BDUs, that will guarantee a speedy conversion to ABUs? :D
I tried that. The Galactic Karma see straight thru such trickery. I got BDUs and set them up in the fall of 2013, and you see how much closer we are to ABUs.... :)
Quote from: ColonelJack on February 29, 2016, 07:59:31 PM
Is the Army Cadets organization even still around?
Surprisingly, yes. Considering all the crazy stuff thats gone on, its amazing. Its like the Mark Watney of cadet programs.
Actually, service members get an annual clothing maintenance allowance, which is, in theory, enough to replace worn out items at the end of their rated service life. We all know that doesn't really work, because most people have more than the minimum quantity of uniform items, and they generally wear out, or become otherwise unserviceable, faster than that rated service life.
There is a little opportunity for positive cash flow, though, when an item isn't replaced at the end of its rated service life. A good example was my peacoat, the single most expensive item in my seabag. The current price is $145.75, with a 10 year life. Mine lasted all 20 years I was in, so (using today's figures) that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
We all know what you swabbos buy with extra cash...
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
We all know what you swabbos buy with extra cash...
8) >:D
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
We all know what you swabbos buy with extra cash...
And it ain't razors.... :)
Quote from: THRAWN on February 29, 2016, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
We all know what you swabbos buy with extra cash...
And it ain't razors.... :)
I'll have you know that I buy a new razor once a month. :P
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:51:02 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 29, 2016, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
that $14.58 a year went in my pocket, or to buy something else I needed.
We all know what you swabbos buy with extra cash...
And it ain't razors.... :)
I'll have you know that I buy a new razor once a month. :P
In Tiajuana
Quote from: Goblin on February 28, 2016, 03:15:20 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 28, 2016, 03:44:41 AM
Quote from: slimshady on February 27, 2016, 08:07:18 PM
Very expensive for such rare as the occasion to wear it.
Different strokes for different folks. If I were allowed to wear the AF-STYLE uniform, I would probably spring for the mess dress, and find occasions to wear it. My barbateness precludes such action.
If you're "finding" reasons to wear mess dress you're wrong.
Hmmm... Just noticed this.
How am I wrong?
If I like dressing up, and am going to spend the bucks for fancy duds (oh, BTW, I own a tux), I'm going to look for opportunities to wear them.
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
And if the reverse is true?
You don't go because you have to dress up.
I'd like to point out that is is bad form to say a person's motivation for attending an event is wrong.
We should not care why they are here.....just that they are there.
We have this same argument about ribbons, berets, cords and other bling.
Attacking a person's motivation....so long as it is in line with CAP's core values, ethics and aims is not following our core value of respect.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 01:36:49 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
And if the reverse is true?
You don't go because you have to dress up.
I'd like to point out that is is bad form to say a person's motivation for attending an event is wrong.
We should not care why they are here.....just that they are there.
We have this same argument about ribbons, berets, cords and other bling.
Attacking a person's motivation....so long as it is in line with CAP's core values, ethics and aims is not following our core value of respect.
Noted
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're Your implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
FTFY.
There are also events where not wearing the prescribed UoD looks tacky, and I might not attend for that reason. Having the right uniform can be an inducement to show up.
Regardless, I think it's poor form to question my personal choices in this situation.
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
Hey, man, you pay enough for the darn thing, better get some wear out of it.
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
Hey, man, you pay enough for the darn thing, better get some wear out of it.
You sound like my ex-wife. And because of that, we went to every NER conference, and wing conference we could schedule. Ended up learning a lot thanks to wanting to get use out of my uniform....It doesn't matter what the motivation is, as long as there is motivation.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 01, 2016, 04:17:16 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're Your implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
FTFY.
Good catch! That kinda stuff grinds my gears. Appreciate the correction on a stupid mistake.
Quote
....It doesn't matter what the motivation is, as long as there is motivation.
Copy all. I'll remember this.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 01, 2016, 03:01:26 PM
You sound like my ex-wife. And because of that, we went to every NER conference, and wing conference we could schedule. Ended up learning a lot thanks to wanting to get use out of my uniform....It doesn't matter what the motivation is, as long as there is motivation.
"OHhhh, Archie!"
I will be finding myself at random wing & region conferences in the next year quite a bit more than normal, so I figured what the heck.
Plus, I like my jingle-jangles.
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 01, 2016, 03:01:26 PM
You sound like my ex-wife. And because of that, we went to every NER conference, and wing conference we could schedule. Ended up learning a lot thanks to wanting to get use out of my uniform....It doesn't matter what the motivation is, as long as there is motivation.
"OHhhh, Archie!"
I will be finding myself at random wing & region conferences in the next year quite a bit more than normal, so I figured what the heck.
Plus, I like my jingle-jangles.
Stifle yerself....lol
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
Actually, service members get an annual clothing maintenance allowance, which is, in theory, enough to replace worn out items at the end of their rated service life.
Officers don't get that clothing allowance.
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 05:01:23 PM
Plus, I like my jingle-jangles.
"I've got clothes that Jingle jangle jingle"
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 06:47:12 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 05:01:23 PM
Plus, I like my jingle-jangles.
"I've got clothes that Jingle jangle jingle"
And now that'll be in my head for the rest of the day. Thanks.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 01, 2016, 06:48:02 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 06:47:12 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 05:01:23 PM
Plus, I like my jingle-jangles.
"I've got clothes that Jingle jangle jingle"
And now that'll be in my head for the rest of the day. Thanks.
I live to serve. :)
Quote from: NIN on March 01, 2016, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: Goblin on March 01, 2016, 01:32:27 AM
You're implication is that you would attend events for the sole purpose of wearing mess dress.
If you weren't interested in the event before, and now want to go just to "dress up," then you're wrong.
Hey, man, you pay enough for the darn thing, better get some wear out of it.
If you attend events that require formal dress more than twice a year, then mess dress is worthwhile getting. I bought myself a tux when I found myself attending more than just a couple of Masonic formal events a year; some lodges require their line officers to wear formal dress for degrees and officer installations.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 01, 2016, 06:32:01 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 29, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
Actually, service members get an annual clothing maintenance allowance, which is, in theory, enough to replace worn out items at the end of their rated service life.
Officers don't get that clothing allowance.
True. Officers only get the initial issue.
And I don't think that officers get an initial issue either. I think they get an advance on their pay to purchase the required uniforms....but they don't get an allowance for it. Enlisted do though.
http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/2016ClothingAllowance.html (http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/2016ClothingAllowance.html)
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 11:13:33 PM
And I don't think that officers get an initial issue either. I think they get an advance on their pay to purchase the required uniforms....but they don't get an allowance for it. Enlisted do though.
http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/2016ClothingAllowance.html (http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/2016ClothingAllowance.html)
I seem to remember getting one, but that was a good few years ago.
Trolls make forums
FUN.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: slimshady on February 29, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Yea it would be nice if the Air Force would just pay for our uniforms but of course they don't.
Officer's get a one time allowance to buy their initial uniforms, after that it's an out of pocket expense.
For all the people that think I'm crazy for wanting changes to cap, I'm very happy about a email I got from the chairman of the national cap uniform committee that says we are seeking approval from the AIr Force for ABU'S.
We all want positive changes to CAP. But how go about them makes all the difference in the world.
Quote from: slimshady on March 03, 2016, 11:45:00 PM
For all the people that think I'm crazy for wanting changes to cap, I'm very happy about a email I got from the chairman of the national cap uniform committee that says we are seeking approval from the AIr Force for ABU'S.
You did it!
Yes I did.
"Daddy shot a bear, but we killed it"
Heck yea
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 02, 2016, 05:37:35 PM
Officer's get a one time allowance to buy their initial uniforms, after that it's an out of pocket expense.
Correct. OCS, we had to buy our uniform. We had an initial clothing allowance, but it really wasn't enough to cover everything. We were issued PTs (two pairs of shorts, sweats, two long-sleeve shirts, three short sleeves, and two hoodies, plus the glow belt), NWUs (3 sets), Khakis (I think one set...I don't recall), Dress Blues (one set), Dress Whites (one set), and all of the accessories (including winter coat and zip-up nylon, socks, gloves, etc.--I believe we had to pay for our NDS ribbons, too--like $3 a piece or something along those lines, and we needed three of them, I think). The big statement at the start was "If you don't pay your bill before graduation, you will not graduate until you pay, and you will not leave OTCN until you pay, whether you commission or not." It was like $3k, somewhere close to that; I can't remember off the top of my head. It was just a mound of uniform crap. We had to pay for our polishing kits, but I think our sea bags were covered along with our training materials (notebooks, etc.). We had to pay $9 for our haircuts, too, even if you went in with an already-shaved melon. And every time you needed a haircut during training, $9.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 07, 2016, 03:37:10 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 02, 2016, 05:37:35 PM
Officer's get a one time allowance to buy their initial uniforms, after that it's an out of pocket expense.
Correct. OCS, we had to buy our uniform. We had an initial clothing allowance, but it really wasn't enough to cover everything. We were issued PTs (two pairs of shorts, sweats, two long-sleeve shirts, three short sleeves, and two hoodies, plus the glow belt), NWUs (3 sets), Khakis (I think one set...I don't recall), Dress Blues (one set), Dress Whites (one set), and all of the accessories (including winter coat and zip-up nylon, socks, gloves, etc.--I believe we had to pay for our NDS ribbons, too--like $3 a piece or something along those lines, and we needed three of them, I think). The big statement at the start was "If you don't pay your bill before graduation, you will not graduate until you pay, and you will not leave OTCN until you pay, whether you commission or not." It was like $3k, somewhere close to that; I can't remember off the top of my head. It was just a mound of uniform crap. We had to pay for our polishing kits, but I think our sea bags were covered along with our training materials (notebooks, etc.). We had to pay $9 for our haircuts, too, even if you went in with an already-shaved melon. And every time you needed a haircut during training, $9.
The joys of the private sector doing it better than the government.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 07, 2016, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 07, 2016, 03:37:10 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 02, 2016, 05:37:35 PM
Officer's get a one time allowance to buy their initial uniforms, after that it's an out of pocket expense.
Correct. OCS, we had to buy our uniform. We had an initial clothing allowance, but it really wasn't enough to cover everything. We were issued PTs (two pairs of shorts, sweats, two long-sleeve shirts, three short sleeves, and two hoodies, plus the glow belt), NWUs (3 sets), Khakis (I think one set...I don't recall), Dress Blues (one set), Dress Whites (one set), and all of the accessories (including winter coat and zip-up nylon, socks, gloves, etc.--I believe we had to pay for our NDS ribbons, too--like $3 a piece or something along those lines, and we needed three of them, I think). The big statement at the start was "If you don't pay your bill before graduation, you will not graduate until you pay, and you will not leave OTCN until you pay, whether you commission or not." It was like $3k, somewhere close to that; I can't remember off the top of my head. It was just a mound of uniform crap. We had to pay for our polishing kits, but I think our sea bags were covered along with our training materials (notebooks, etc.). We had to pay $9 for our haircuts, too, even if you went in with an already-shaved melon. And every time you needed a haircut during training, $9.
The joys of the private sector doing it better than the government.
With the exception of an open market to compete for new uniforms
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#ExchangeThis