Good Morning All!! I'm a brand new C/SSgt and I'm wondering... It's becoming cold outside, and I don't have a blues jacket. I do however have a long sleeve blues shirt. Am I allowed to wear that with a tie at my rank, or are the officers the only ones who can wear that combination? Please forgive me for my silly question, please do remember, I'm new to all this :/. Thanks!
Look it up, C/SSGT. http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)
If you're an NCO rated GTM2 and all, you shouldn't need to be asking us.
V/R
Spam
CAPM 39-1 would answer that
You will always wear a tie with the long-sleeved shirt
Romeo Tango Foxtrot Mike.
e h r a
a e i n
d e u
n a
d l
l
y
CAPM 39-1 is your fweind.
Heh, "Friendly" My Buttocks :)
Quote from: Caponly101 on November 13, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Heh, "Friendly" My Buttocks :)
Better than it originally says.
Long sleeve light blue shirt must be worn with the AF blue tie. No restriction on rank. (See... youse don't hafta throw the kid under the bus, even though he should know better.) :D
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 13, 2015, 07:52:59 PM
Long sleeve light blue shirt must be worn with the AF blue tie. No restriction on rank. (See... youse don't hafta throw the kid under the bus, even though he should know better.) :D
Thank You :) I thought I knew, I was just making sure!
Quote from: Garibaldi on November 13, 2015, 06:24:59 PM
Romeo Tango Foxtrot Mike.
e h u a
a e r t
d n e
i r
s i
h a
e l
d
CAPM 39-1 is your fweind.
FTFY! >:D
Though you are allowed to wear it per 39-1, be sure to check with your unit to see if they have any limitations(Though, limitations that contradict safe behaviour shouldn't happen) on who can wear what. As a personal experience, I remember a rogue C/CC who wouldn't allow enlisted to wear service coats. This changed, of course, with a chain of command change. Just make sure that your chain of command knows the regs as well, and let them know that you know the regs, then you should be good to go.
Quote from: Caponly101 on November 13, 2015, 09:30:47 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 13, 2015, 07:52:59 PM
Long sleeve light blue shirt must be worn with the AF blue tie. No restriction on rank. (See... youse don't hafta throw the kid under the bus, even though he should know better.) :D
Thank You :) I thought I knew, I was just making sure!
A good way to avoid the sort of replies you got here would be to state something like:
There are no restrictions in CAPM 39-1 that I see, however, I was wondering if there are any traditions or other restrictions on wearing the long-sleeve / tie combination as a C/SSgt. That lets people know you've looked at the manual while asking your valid question about unwritten norms.
Even the Air Force has these kind of unwritten practices, for example, officers who are not prior enlisted typically do not wear ribbons on their blues shirts. That's not written anywhere, it's just universally accepted practice. Some units have local policies or practices regarding uniform combinations, which they are allowed to do.
LTC Day is right; worse, sometimes people carry something as a "tradition" which misinterprets the actual regs. "No hands in pockets" is a favorite, often misinterpreted from the AFI (-2903):
"2.13.7. When in uniform or civilian clothes (in an official capacity) the following actions are prohibited while walking or in a formation, [emphasis added by Spam] including organized or unit PT. Note: Members should also consult AFI 34-1201, Protocol and AFPAM 36-2241, Professional Development Guide, for protocol, customs and courtesies. 2.13.7.1. Do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item".
So, you'll occasionally see people misinterpret to tell guys standing around (NOT in a formation) in cold weather to take their hands out of their pockets.
Someone made a great meme on it with Chesty: http://officercandidatesschool.com/blog/2015/07/20/chesty-puller-with-his-hands-in-his-pockets-or-out-of-regs/ (http://officercandidatesschool.com/blog/2015/07/20/chesty-puller-with-his-hands-in-his-pockets-or-out-of-regs/)
V/R
Spam
Quote from: Spam on November 19, 2015, 07:36:11 PM
LTC Day is right; worse, sometimes people carry something as a "tradition" which misinterprets the actual regs. "No hands in pockets" is a favorite, often misinterpreted from the AFI (-2903):
"2.13.7. When in uniform or civilian clothes (in an official capacity) the following actions are prohibited while walking or in a formation, [emphasis added by Spam] including organized or unit PT. Note: Members should also consult AFI 34-1201, Protocol and AFPAM 36-2241, Professional Development Guide, for protocol, customs and courtesies. 2.13.7.1. Do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item".
So, you'll occasionally see people misinterpret to tell guys standing around (NOT in a formation) in cold weather to take their hands out of their pockets.
Someone made a great meme on it with Chesty: http://officercandidatesschool.com/blog/2015/07/20/chesty-puller-with-his-hands-in-his-pockets-or-out-of-regs/ (http://officercandidatesschool.com/blog/2015/07/20/chesty-puller-with-his-hands-in-his-pockets-or-out-of-regs/)
V/R
Spam
A lot of stuff can be traced back to the "professional carriage" of one's self when in uniform. You are required to maintain professional bearing at all times.
So, what is considered professional? It's subjective. Is standing around with your hand in your pocket professional? Is chewing gum in formation professional?
People argue to death about this stuff.
I'd have to dig around, but the PDG, which is considered a weird set of instructions (at least by my bosses) does forbid hands in the pockets. Let me see if I can find a PDG since I have packed for Korea.
Found it:
Ok, so the PDG (AFPAM 36-2241 dated 1 Oct 2013) under Chapter 17, section 17b "Members will not stand or walk with hands in pockets of any uniform combination [...].
However, there is no "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" on the "BY THE ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE" page, so.... Up to people with more stripes than me.
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on November 19, 2015, 09:34:46 PM
I'd have to dig around, but the PDG, which is considered a weird set of instructions (at least by my bosses) does forbid hands in the pockets. Let me see if I can find a PDG since I have packed for Korea.
Ok, so the PDG (AFPAM 36-2241 dated 1 Oct 2015) under Chapter 17, section 17b "Members will not stand or walk with hands in pockets of any uniform combination [...].
However, there is no "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" on the "BY THE ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE" page, so.... Up to people with more stripes than me.
Compliance is mandatory in every official regulatory/doctrinal publication. You must follow those.
Every Airman who swears in says this:
QuoteI will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Chain of command. Now, that being said, the reg you shared does not having merit over CAP.
There are times when you could consider hands in pockets to be of a safety importance, such as in extreme cold. This is why gloves were invented. This is why jackets were invented. The problem with CAP is that we don't get issued that stuff nor do we generally have the money, or sometimes the resources, to go out and buy the specific uniform items authorized by CAP. There are some units that will tell their members that must wear the correct uniform at all times. Others allow their members, especially cadets, wear their personal winter jackets over their uniforms in cold conditions.
I understand it has no bearing over CAP. Should have quoted Spam's post on people misquoting AFI 36-2903 for the pocket bit.
However, as far as I am aware, this isn't either a regulation/instruction nor a doctrinal pub (such as an AFR/AFI or AFDD) and is only published under the authority of the service secretary to supersede the previous one. That said, I, being but a Staff Sergeant, will enforce relevant AFIs as required of me by both that oath and relevant regulations, in addition to what my section and flight leadership wants enforced, such as hands in pockets, them being (non commissioned) officers appointed over me.
(http://i.imgur.com/bPHfLMB.jpg)
I just had to >:D
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 19, 2015, 09:52:22 PM
Others allow their members, especially cadets, wear their personal winter jackets over their uniforms in cold conditions.
Not me! No civilian jackets over their USAF style uniforms, no. Never, and I would send someone home from an activity (O Flights, for example) rather than have them hanging around in public in unapproved mixes. Our unit keeps a stock of field jackets to check out in those cases. If its a blues night, they'd better have approved outerwear, OR come in BDUs and borrow an approved field jacket until they buy their own.
If it is too cold for them to be outside without a coat, then the answer set is: go inside, or don approved outerwear, or wear ALL civilian warm clothes, or find another organization. No mixing. Never should we accept a whiny "but... but... SAFETY!" rationalization for this.
V/R
Spam
Quote from: Spam on November 20, 2015, 04:39:25 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 19, 2015, 09:52:22 PM
Others allow their members, especially cadets, wear their personal winter jackets over their uniforms in cold conditions.
Not me! No civilian jackets over their USAF style uniforms, no. Never, and I would send someone home from an activity (O Flights, for example) rather than have them hanging around in public in unapproved mixes. Our unit keeps a stock of field jackets to check out in those cases. If its a blues night, they'd better have approved outerwear, OR come in BDUs and borrow an approved field jacket until they buy their own.
If it is too cold for them to be outside without a coat, then the answer set is: go inside, or don approved outerwear, or wear ALL civilian warm clothes, or find another organization. No mixing. Never should we accept a whiny "but... but... SAFETY!" rationalization for this.
V/R
Spam
WHAT?!!? Holding people accountable to the approved standard?!!? But what about safety? Won't somebody please think of the children?!!?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Seriously, 10, 15, 20 years ago, I could see not having access to regulation CWG at an affordable price, but now with the internet machine and the huge online presence of surplus equipment, not having it is an excuse. The USAF allows us to wear the uniform. Wear it correctly, or join the USNCC....
Quote from: THRAWN on November 20, 2015, 02:00:42 PM
Quote from: Spam on November 20, 2015, 04:39:25 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 19, 2015, 09:52:22 PM
Others allow their members, especially cadets, wear their personal winter jackets over their uniforms in cold conditions.
Not me! No civilian jackets over their USAF style uniforms, no. Never, and I would send someone home from an activity (O Flights, for example) rather than have them hanging around in public in unapproved mixes. Our unit keeps a stock of field jackets to check out in those cases. If its a blues night, they'd better have approved outerwear, OR come in BDUs and borrow an approved field jacket until they buy their own.
If it is too cold for them to be outside without a coat, then the answer set is: go inside, or don approved outerwear, or wear ALL civilian warm clothes, or find another organization. No mixing. Never should we accept a whiny "but... but... SAFETY!" rationalization for this.
V/R
Spam
WHAT?!!? Holding people accountable to the approved standard?!!? But what about safety? Won't somebody please think of the children?!!?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Seriously, 10, 15, 20 years ago, I could see not having access to regulation CWG at an affordable price, but now with the internet machine and the huge online presence of surplus equipment, not having it is an excuse. The USAF allows us to wear the uniform. Wear it correctly, or join the USNCC....
We grew up in an age where it was all military or nothing. There wasn't even a required "training" uniform. You just showed up in decent clothes with shoes amenable to drill until you got your whole uniform. We wouldn't even THINK about mixing civilian items with our uniforms; we'd die of frost stroke or something before we would defile our uniform. At one time, yes, I would let cadets wear a civilian jacket over their uniform if it was the only option, but lately, I've changed my mind: either wear the whole uniform or don't come to the activity. The ultimate safety measure is to stay the (insert your favorite expletive here) home.
So......poor kids need not apply.
:(
Or you can find ways to help fund authorized jackets. Not as easy, but much better... and doable.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 20, 2015, 03:58:15 PM
So......poor kids need not apply.
:(
Mmmmmmm...no. Not at all. But, given the amount of money that is required to outfit a cadet, that can be a turn-off on its own anyway. There are some units that can fund or even subsidize the costs of getting proper cold-weather gear through fund-raising or "scholarships" or grants from local businesses. It just takes a little know-how and some feet-beating and door-knocking. There are units in poverty-stricken areas that do just fine, and some in well-to-do areas that flounder.
Here's the thing. Most activities and organizations out there are going to cost money. The solution is not to give members everything, but to facilitate ways for them to get the necessary uniforms, gear and activity fees. My family had a low income growing up, yet I was able to fully participate in CAP for many years. Where there is a will there is a way. And in my experience, cadets who have to work for what they have, tend to appreciate it more and stay in longer.
Quote from: Spam on November 20, 2015, 04:39:25 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 19, 2015, 09:52:22 PM
Others allow their members, especially cadets, wear their personal winter jackets over their uniforms in cold conditions.
Not me! No civilian jackets over their USAF style uniforms, no. Never, and I would send someone home from an activity (O Flights, for example) rather than have them hanging around in public in unapproved mixes. Our unit keeps a stock of field jackets to check out in those cases. If its a blues night, they'd better have approved outerwear, OR come in BDUs and borrow an approved field jacket until they buy their own.
If it is too cold for them to be outside without a coat, then the answer set is: go inside, or don approved outerwear, or wear ALL civilian warm clothes, or find another organization. No mixing. Never should we accept a whiny "but... but... SAFETY!" rationalization for this.
V/R
Spam
I completely agree with you on this. If you don't have the approved/authorized uniform for the conditions, wear the civilian equivalent. It's one thing if there was some freak weather phenomena that wasn't forecast that prompted your need to survive in harsh conditions, but for a planned activity, wear the appropriate clothing, or if you don't have it, suck it up. Or, if it's an indoor event, show up early in civies, and change when you're inside.
To Thrawn and Garibaldi's replies:
I think it's more the folks that haven't been around the military much who haven't been held to that standard, especially moms. There are a lot of helicopter parents who may even be seniors in the squadron that can't handle watching their kid tough it out.
Quote from: Garibaldi on November 20, 2015, 04:33:28 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 20, 2015, 03:58:15 PM
So......poor kids need not apply.
:(
Mmmmmmm...no. Not at all. But, given the amount of money that is required to outfit a cadet, that can be a turn-off on its own anyway. There are some units that can fund or even subsidize the costs of getting proper cold-weather gear through fund-raising or "scholarships" or grants from local businesses. It just takes a little know-how and some feet-beating and door-knocking. There are units in poverty-stricken areas that do just fine, and some in well-to-do areas that flounder.
A lot of squadrons try to bulk up their supplies through fundraising. We are pretty good with BDUs at our squadron, but we don't have the Blues stock we need. We do what we can, but the supply just isn't there.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 20, 2015, 04:49:52 PM
Here's the thing. Most activities and organizations out there are going to cost money. The solution is not to give members everything, but to facilitate ways for them to get the necessary uniforms, gear and activity fees. My family had a low income growing up, yet I was able to fully participate in CAP for many years. Where there is a will there is a way. And in my experience, cadets who have to work for what they have, tend to appreciate it more and stay in longer.
I think a major point to note on this is do not fund-raise your squadron to death. Have one or two big fundraisers for the year, if possible, but don't make it your 5th week activity every quarter. It kills cadet motivation.
We're considering having a starting due to help some of the initial cadet equipment/uniform costs. The problem with cadets are that they outgrow their uniforms very quickly.