CAP Talk

Forgive me in advance, I'm sure it's all in the regs, just can't find it...

If Senior Members wear the blue polo/grey slacks combination are we still saluting other Seniors? Are cadets still saluting us?

Are combat boots (spit shined Corcoran's) authorized to wear with this combo? And if it's authorized is anyone actually wearing them?

We're going to a cadet activity this weekend where BDU's are the uniform of the day, I'm good to go except for the "CAP" insignia, still waiting on Vanguard.  Am I gonna get thumped for not having it on?

Thanks.

Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

CAPP 151,  thank you sir.

To answer your question about the combat boots with Polo combination.

Yes.  CAPM 39-1 section 5.2.2.6

Perfect, thank you sir.

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

I disagree.

If a junior individual wearing an Air Force-style uniform recognizes a superior officer wearing civilian attire, he/she would not render a salute to that superior.

The salute is rendered to the grade/uniform, not the person wearing it.

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

CAPP 151 says on page 3:

Quote"For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). "

The aviator shirt combo is a corporate-style uniform, and it's not excluded from rendering C&C.

The pamphlet follows up the above guideline with: 

Quote"Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions."

As a new member I was tripped up a few times trying to figure out when and when not to salute or return a salute when wearing the corporate uniforms. Now I always return a salute, regardless of the style of the uniform I'm wearing, and I have no problem initiating a salute when I'm wearing the aviator shirt combo.

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

Are you saying that when wearing an aviator shirt or BBDU you should not render/return a salute?

From CAPP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

This seems to restrict saluting only when wearing a polo or blazer?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 05, 2015, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

I disagree.

If a junior individual wearing an Air Force-style uniform recognizes a superior officer wearing civilian attire, he/she would not render a salute to that superior.

The salute is rendered to the grade/uniform, not the person wearing it.

It's not required, but it doesn't hurt to salute your wing king when he is wandering around your squadron area in Bermuda shorts and a Magnum PI shirt. You salute the position, not just the grade...

If I'm saluted I'm returning the salute regardless of uniform. It's just the respectful thing to do, especially as new member working with cadets.

Quote from: THRAWN on August 05, 2015, 08:26:45 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 05, 2015, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

I disagree.

If a junior individual wearing an Air Force-style uniform recognizes a superior officer wearing civilian attire, he/she would not render a salute to that superior.

The salute is rendered to the grade/uniform, not the person wearing it.

It's not required, but it doesn't hurt to salute your wing king when he is wandering around your squadron area in Bermuda shorts and a Magnum PI shirt. You salute the position, not just the grade...

Very true; however, as it is not a requirement, it's not something I would go out of my way to promote or enforce.

If I'm wearing civilian clothing and a cadet doesn't salute me, that's totally fine. If I'm in uniform and a cadet doesn't salute me, depending on the circumstances of the situation (such as walking past me in a parking lot), I'm generally not going to do anything about it. Let's not nit-pick here. That's where you get poor leadership. If we're in training country and a salute was most definitely warranted based on the environment and operating conditions, I wouldn't say anything in group. I would address it off-to-the-side later at an appropriate opportunity, not in front of the rest of the squadron/flight. And it's generally along the lines of "Hey, just make sure you salute officers when you're supposed to, alright? If you don't know, salute, and ask later on if it's appropriate." I'd rather they attempt and ask than to not do anything, but I'm not going to chastise anyone for a quick mistake.

When I was in Army ROTC in college, I walked right past a Lieutenant Colonel and didn't salute after direct eye contact. He didn't say anything. Later that day, he told the entire battalion that if they walk past a senior officer, they are supposed to salute (and explained the whole ordeal on when to drop a salute). I went up to him after training that day and apologized for it and said I know the speech was addressing that incident with me. He said it wasn't a big deal and not to worry about it, "sh---stuff---happens." Easy peasy.

Quote from: xray328 on August 05, 2015, 08:32:04 PM
If I'm saluted I'm returning the salute regardless of uniform. It's just the respectful thing to do, especially as new member working with cadets.

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

Sure about that? Take a look in CAPP 151 for the answer.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

As I said, I believe it should be encouraged.

--C/Maj Kiss

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 05, 2015, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: Tim Day on August 05, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
Xray,

CAPP 151, "Respect on Display" has a very clear explanation of when to salute as well as other helpful information about CAP customs and courtesies.

In the specific case you mention, no - when you are wearing civilian clothes or corporate uniform you do not salute. However, junior personnel in AF-style uniform should salute senior personnel in any uniform or civilian clothes on recognition. The senior will return the salute if in AF-style uniform or otherwise politely acknowledge the salute ("Thank you, Cadet Captain Smith" works great) if not in AF-style uniform.

And no, you should not wear an incomplete uniform (BDU without insignia).

I disagree.

If a junior individual wearing an Air Force-style uniform recognizes a superior officer wearing civilian attire, he/she would not render a salute to that superior.

The salute is rendered to the grade/uniform, not the person wearing it.

Quote from:  CAPP 151When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

During my 24 years in the Navy, courtesies were rendered to persons, to whom grade is assigned even when they are not in uniform.

Quote from: xray328 on August 05, 2015, 08:32:04 PM
If I'm saluted I'm returning the salute regardless of uniform. It's just the respectful thing to do, especially as new member working with cadets.

This is not incorrect. CAPP 151 states typically a senior officer in civilian clothes would return a salute by verbally acknowledging that salute, but there's no prohibition on returning a salute when in civilian clothes. Either the salute or a courteous verbal response can demonstrate the same level of respect.

Reminds me of that seen at the end of "Men of Honor" Don't be that guy...

http://youtu.be/9IxUdFJlcDo

(First couple minutes)

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

Quote from: Ground_Pounder on August 06, 2015, 04:55:44 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

Quote from: CAPR 5-4, Para. 1i
"Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.

With a few exceptions (reporting, for example), NCOs and other non-officers are not normally saluted.

After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this.

Let's make this very simple.  Most people who served in the military were taught, "when in doubt, whip it out" in regards to saluting.  Also it is respectful to return any salute that you are given and the salute should be a correct one.  If the person saluting you really shouldn't have, then you can correct after returning the salute.

I always return salutes and if one is given to me.  If a person is going to make the effort to salute then the least I can do is return it properly regardless of what uniform I am wearing.

Quote from: kwe1009 on August 06, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
Let's make this very simple.  Most people who served in the military were taught, "when in doubt, whip it out" in regards to saluting.  Also it is respectful to return any salute that you are given and the salute should be a correct one.  If the person saluting you really shouldn't have, then you can correct after returning the salute.

I always return salutes and if one is given to me.  If a person is going to make the effort to salute then the least I can do is return it properly regardless of what uniform I am wearing.

That's the key. If you don't know if you should salute, salute. The worst will be that you'll be corrected if it wasn't required. It's better than not saluting when you should have.

If you get some prick who has a real issue with the fact that you saluted, when you shouldn't have, then suck it up and move on, and know for next time. It's not something to dwell on endlessly

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 05:04:36 PM
No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

Quote from: xray328 on August 06, 2015, 07:10:25 PM
Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

It should always be returned, or something as simple as "You don't need to salute me" with a friendly smile, anything to indicate politeness, whether they salute back or not. It's all in how the situation gets responded to. If they walk by and don't say anything, and don't render a salute, ignore it and move on.

One of the biggest issues with the whole "He didn't salute me" or "Why didn't she salute back?" is that people drag it on and on. Just get over it and carry on with what you were doing. No use in getting upset over it.

Senior Members, while not officers, are considered superior to all cadets and warrant a salute per CAPP-151. The exception should be NCOs, who aren't really supposed to warrant a salute in a military culture, but positions were made for NCOs; however, there is nothing saying NCOs would be saluted. According the CAPP-151, all Senior Members warrant a salute, although I personally don't believe it's warranted. In the end, regs are regs, and if an NCO wants a salute by a cadet because he/she is a Senior, really, the regs don't say otherwise. Maybe leave that one up to the Squadron Commander at that level. CAP NCOs are former enlisted anyway, and most likely wouldn't expect a salute unless they believe it makes them feel more important.

QuoteWhen outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.

"CAP senior members"

It has no discretion as to officers. Cadets salute all seniors.

Now, if you want to get tricky, would a Senior Member NCO salute a Senior Member of non-officership? No, because a Senior Member NCO outranks a non-officer Senior Member. Likewise, that Senior Member would not salute the NCO.

I think this is getting beat to death. It really isn't a huge deal.

Agreed, much more in depth than I was planning on, but good information regardless.  I'm going to be instructing cadets so I'm thankful for this resource and for everyone's help.

Quote from: xray328 on August 06, 2015, 07:10:25 PM
Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade). During those first six months, senior members may choose the officer track or, if they qualify, the NCO track and will wear the appropriate uniform for the track selected in accordance with CAPM 39-1.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2015, 07:24:55 PM

Quote from: xray328 on August 06, 2015, 07:10:25 PM
Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

It should always be returned, or something as simple as "You don't need to salute me" with a friendly smile, anything to indicate politeness, whether they salute back or not. It's all in how the situation gets responded to. If they walk by and don't say anything, and don't render a salute, ignore it and move on.

One of the biggest issues with the whole "He didn't salute me" or "Why didn't she salute back?" is that people drag it on and on. Just get over it and carry on with what you were doing. No use in getting upset over it.

Senior Members, while not officers, are considered superior to all cadets and warrant a salute per CAPP-151. The exception should be NCOs, who aren't really supposed to warrant a salute in a military culture, but positions were made for NCOs; however, there is nothing saying NCOs would be saluted. According the CAPP-151, all Senior Members warrant a salute, although I personally don't believe it's warranted. In the end, regs are regs, and if an NCO wants a salute by a cadet because he/she is a Senior, really, the regs don't say otherwise. Maybe leave that one up to the Squadron Commander at that level. CAP NCOs are former enlisted anyway, and most likely wouldn't expect a salute unless they believe it makes them feel more important.

QuoteWhen outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.

"CAP senior members"

It has no discretion as to officers. Cadets salute all seniors.

Ned already explained that that was a typo that will be corrected in the next revision of CAPP 151.

I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2015, 07:58:53 PM
I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

It's also been pointed out that CAPP 151 is a pamphlet, and that "'Pamphlets' are nondirective, informative, 'how-to' type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies."

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2015, 07:58:53 PM
I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

Yeah....let's just blindly follow orders.....even if they are wrong.

Guys,

Let's not go crazy here.  If somebody wants to salute a SMWOG "because it says so in a pamphlet," have at it.  Nobody is going to get disciplined for it.

We'll fix the typo.  Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Look -- SQUIRREL!

Quote from: Ned on August 06, 2015, 09:54:40 PMLook -- SQUIRREL!

Do I have to salute it?

Quote from: Fubar on August 07, 2015, 12:40:27 AM

Quote from: Ned on August 06, 2015, 09:54:40 PMLook -- SQUIRREL!

Do I have to salute it?

You don't have to if it's wearing a polo!

After my time in the canoe club, it is still difficult for me to salute when not wearing a hat/cover/cap/headgear. The mantra in the Navy is, "no hat, no salute." I recall also learning that as a cadet back in the '60s, but could be in error.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2015, 07:58:53 PM
I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

Aerospace Education is suppose to be the rocket science, not CAPP 151.  Seriously, common sense applies in situations.  Officers are saluted, NCOs are not.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 07:43:19 PM


A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

Right.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 07, 2015, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 07:43:19 PM


A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who believe Flight Officers are a myth.

WIWAFO, people were always stopping to ask what the heck I was.

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2015, 07:12:45 AM

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 07, 2015, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 07:43:19 PM


A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who believe Flight Officers are a myth.

WIWAFO, people were always stopping to ask what the heck I was.

I was a warrant officer. Nobody ever asked what I was. Because I was something that really existed  somewhere, even though not in USAF, and not something totally made up.

I think I was a WO once upon a time, but have no record of it, except on an olde 101 card.

In our squadron we have a young woman who just rejoined Civil Air Patrol after a two year hiatus. The break was caused by her squadron's folding. At the time she was 17 years old but could not afford a car and the gas to drive to the next nearest squadron (ours). Now, when she is just 20 years old, she is working full time and has the money to do so. She wanted to continue with CAP to get her Mitchell, but there is insufficient time for that, and NHQ decided that she should be a Senior Member as well. So, she has rejoined as a Senior Member.

Within the next month she will become a Flight Officer. So, we will have a real live one!

Quote from: Ned on August 06, 2015, 09:54:40 PM
Guys,

Let's not go crazy here.  If somebody wants to salute a SMWOG "because it says so in a pamphlet," have at it.  Nobody is going to get disciplined for it.

We'll fix the typo.  Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Look -- SQUIRREL!

(http://cdn5.image.bored.com/thumbnails/ladies-love-squirrel-uniform__big_no.jpg)

;)

Combat tree rat! :D

I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom.  ::)

Quote from: MHC5096 on August 10, 2015, 08:49:11 PM
I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that that CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom.  ::)

Same here. There are people who, 20 years later, are convinced that I did stuff as a Cadet when in fact I was a TFO.

Quote from: MHC5096 on August 10, 2015, 08:49:11 PM
I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom.  ::)

Never was a FO but I'm not the greatest fan.  We've had two on the squadron; one transitioned rapidly to full SM status due to his age and the other simply confused the cadets as to what he was!

That said, the first FO was a good call; we needed him as a SM - longer story not for here - and the TFO option allowed that, quite rapidly.  Like many things CAP, it's a program that's well-intended but probably needs some work!

Quote from: MHC5096 on August 10, 2015, 08:49:11 PM
I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom.  ::)

I'd say similar goes for Senior Members without grade.

I currently don't have an insignia; although, I'm coming up for promotion to 2d Lt (should have been promoted right after Level 1 but my commander was unaware of that procedure until I brought it up after some reading). Anyway, I'm the Squadron Leadership Officer and Cadet Activities Officer. So for me, I get a lot of interaction with my cadets, who know who I am and what I'm there for. But if someone else from another unit stops by, or if I happen to meet someone elsewhere, I don't have anything to differentiate that I'm a senior vs cadet in my BDus, until I take my cover off and my hairline is exposed (har har). I've had my times of being mistaken for a cadet by non-members, other CAP members, and Boy Scouts.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

Quote from: veritec on August 11, 2015, 02:24:23 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

CAPR 35-5
Section D

Quote
4-3. Initial Grades.
Members in this category will be enrolled initially without grade.
However, immediately upon completion of Level I, the unit commander may recommend the
member for appointment to a grade commensurate with his or her special skill, as outlined in
figure 5 (figure not posted in quote).

This got off topic.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 02:34:30 PM
As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

Cool. I didn't see that qualifier in your earlier post, thus the need for clarification and my use of the term "not necessarily" (which remains applicable since even in your case the promo is at the commander's discretion, though I don't doubt it's warranted).

Quote from: Ned on August 06, 2015, 07:03:43 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 05:04:36 PM
No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 02:58:52 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Quote from: veritec on August 11, 2015, 02:53:11 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 02:34:30 PM
As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

Cool. I didn't see that qualifier in your earlier post, thus the need for clarification and my use of the term "not necessarily" (which remains applicable since even in your case the promo is at the commander's discretion, though I don't doubt it's warranted).

No worries.  ;)

The intention of my post was to remark about how there is that confusion when it comes to identifying who is who/what. I suppose it also adds to the confusion when those in leadership positions don't always know the regulations that they should be aware of since they might to their immediate subordinate(s). This includes promotions, uniform wear, customs and courtesies.

I think we could spend all day writing up a list of issues regarding knowledge at the squadron command level. Similar goes for the top-tier squadron cadet command.

Quote
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

I'm not a subject matter expert on this, especially considering I didn't write it, but my thoughts regarding this would be that Senior Members are considered under probation and still training to be in leadership positions. They're kind of like "officer candidates" during this phase. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to calling new Senior Members "Officer Candidates" since they're preparing to becoming CAP officers.

However, in many squadrons, including my own, new seniors, once completing their Level 1 and some even before then, take on some responsibilities within their unit, to include assignment to duty positions. In my case, I'm not a grade-holding officer, but I hold an officer title due to my duty positions. Grade vs. Title.

On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be... :P

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 02:58:52 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 02:58:52 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

Ok. I think its making it a bit more complicated than it actually is, but I see the reasoning. Thanks!

In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:04:24 PM
On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be... :P

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted. 

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

Quote from: veritec on August 11, 2015, 02:24:23 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

Also, no promotion is guaranteed by just completing the requirements, the commander is the final arbiter for promotions

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:22:17 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:04:24 PM
On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be... :P

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted.

Furthermore (and again),  CAPP151 is not a regulation.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:24:26 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

Just to provide citation for my assertions:

Quote from: CC Circular 145-11-98Commanders are encouraged to ensure that cadets are given courtesies and respect normally reserved for officers of the U.S. Army. Their military rank is above that of enlisted personnel, but below that of commissioned or warrant officers.

Emphasis is the regulation

Quote3-3. Military courtesy. Cadets will serve in officer positions. Enlisted personnel will be encouraged to salute cadets and address them as "Sir" or Ma'am" or by their title and surname

Emphasis is the regulation.

Quote from: veritec on August 11, 2015, 03:44:42 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:22:17 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:04:24 PM
On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be... :P

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted.

Furthermore (and again),  CAPP151 is not a regulation.

Then on that technicality, there is no regulation regarding the saluting of officers aside from the requirement not to salute in certain uniforms (i.e., mess) in CAPM 39-1.

CAPR 39-2 and CAPR 35-5 do not identify which CAP personnel warrant a salute. That is described solely in CAPP 151, which is recognized in the Glossary of CAPM 39-1 as a reference document/supporting material.

The only document that exists as the general guide to saluting protocol is CAPP 151, which says to salute all Senior Members. It also says, on the very last page of the pamphlet, that it CAPP 151 provides authoritative guidance regarding Air Force-style customs and courtesies. It obviously has an error, and therefore needs to be revised to reflect accurate intention. That's been made exceptionally clear. So wait for a command directive on the matter, or revision, and move on.

This topic has become extremely derailed to argue about the validity of official CAP publications made available through the official CAP website.

The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 05:17:16 PM
The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

Actually, it does not say salute "all" CAP senior members.  It just states "salute CAP senior members". 

While the publication says "salute Senior Members", the intent, which is just as important, is clear that it meant salute senior member officers and further clarified by Col Lee.  Do not be obtuse about this.


But StormChaser is correct by saying "After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this."

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 05:17:16 PM
This topic has become extremely derailed to argue about the validity of official CAP publications made available through the official CAP website.

I'm not arguing the validity of any CAP publications. Among those publications are regulations and pamphlets. The regulations say that "pamphlets are nondirective, informative, 'how-to' type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies." You've been asserting that best practices described in a pamphlet should be carried out to the letter as though they are regulations. On that point you are simply mistaken, sir.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

This.

Like I said, it's really not a big deal. If someone feels that they were warranted a salute based on a commonly-misunderstood regulation, just salute them and be done with it. No need to start arguing with the person about it, especially not in public or in front of any other members. If there's an issue, take it to the side.

The respectful and appropriate thing to do is just get over it and move on. Take it up the chain of command later. If the Deputy Commander for Cadets says "salute all seniors," then that should be the end of it and it's not up for further discussion within the cadet chain of command.

Mr. Veritec, I've already explained my rationale behind this in a previous post. It's about time this discussion comes to a close. The original topic has been addressed as asked.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM
Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

Jeepers.

Cadets, if it moves, salute it.

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM
Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM
Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

Quote from: THRAWN on August 11, 2015, 07:01:11 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM
Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

Hardly.

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM
Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

Quite familiar.  A number of my friends were SMP :)

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 07:04:07 PM
Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

No.  Most SMP cadets wear the dot because they are required to.  If they are not wearing it, then their commander or 1SG should have put a stop to it immediately.  Whether they "like" it or not does not matter. 

If an SMP cadet shows up as a squad leader, then they are already in the wrong.  SMP cadets are to serve in officer positions.  SL is an enlisted position.  What would look worse than an E-6 serving as a PL when your PSG is an E-7? 

At no time is an ROTC cadet to wear the diamonds or flat chevrons except while participating in ROTC.  If they are outside of the realm of ROTC, they are to wear a single black pip, even if they are a first year cadet. 

Edit--What those soldiers may have been are non-contracted reservists that are participating in ROTC.  Then they are not SMP.  They are reservists participating in ROTC.  However, they are not required to wear the pip until they officially contract as an SMP.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 07:04:07 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on August 11, 2015, 07:01:11 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM
Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

Hardly.

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

The soldiers in my unit would treat the newly assigned PL with the respect due his assignment because they're professionals. If "most" SMP cadets aren't wearing their unis correctly, then it needs to be addressed to make them professionals as well.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 07:38:38 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2015, 06:46:31 PM
Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

Quite familiar.  A number of my friends were SMP :)

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 07:04:07 PM
Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

No.  Most SMP cadets wear the dot because they are required to.  If they are not wearing it, then their commander or 1SG should have put a stop to it immediately.  Whether they "like" it or not does not matter. 

If an SMP cadet shows up as a squad leader, then they are already in the wrong.  SMP cadets are to serve in officer positions.  SL is an enlisted position.  What would look worse than an E-6 serving as a PL when your PSG is an E-7? 

At no time is an ROTC cadet to wear the diamonds or flat chevrons except while participating in ROTC.  If they are outside of the realm of ROTC, they are to wear a single black pip, even if they are a first year cadet.

I stand corrected on the SMP/SL designation. I wasn't aware of the difference.

Most of our cadets who were enlisted were 88M (I recall four) or 13B/F (I believe two, one each). I think we had one 15T and one 15U. None of them wore their cadet insignia when they were at drill for Ohio Guard or Reserve. In fact, they would sit in the cadet lounge and talk about how they refused to wear their insignia out of the program. Sometimes, they would forget to remove their SPC and SGT patches when they showed up for Leadership Lab, and they'd swap out just before falling in. A lot of them, both guys and gals, would take off their school patch when they went to drill because they would get ridiculed for wearing a combat patch "they didn't earn," even though ROTC right-sleeve unit insignia aren't combat patches. I had a few encounters myself on campus from some of the Army veterans, especially the ones that had deployed previously.

There's what's on paper and SOP, an then there's what people actually do. Enforceable? Yes. But only if leadership at the unit actually carries out enforcement.

Not saying I agree with the ones that don't follow protocol, but it's not my call to make really.

QuoteEdit--What those soldiers may have been are non-contracted reservists that are participating in ROTC.  Then they are not SMP.  They are reservists participating in ROTC.  However, they are not required to wear the pip until they officially contract as an SMP.

As a former SMP Cadet... and a former commander with SMP Cadets assigned... and as a former adjunct instructor to a ROTC program I tell you are 100% correct.

A single Pip is the only authorized rank insignia for an SMP Cadet. While at their Guard or Reserve unit they will wear their assigned unit's SSI and any SSI-FWTS they are authorized and when on campus they will wear the Cadet Command SSI and school SSI for uniformity purposes.

I know of States that allow non-contracted Cadets in their ARNG to wear Pips as a "Pre-SMP Cadet" but that is not common and only authorized by those States in Title 32 status.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM

Quote from: Ned on August 06, 2015, 07:03:43 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 06, 2015, 05:04:36 PM
No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

Because we have Senior Members who are officers (cadets salute)
We have senior members who have no grade (no salute required)
And we have senior member who are NCOs (no salute required).

151 was badly written by someone who did not think about the SMWOG or the NCOs....so he/she said "Senior Members" when he/she really meant "Senior Member Officers".

It is not rocket science.....one would not salute an Active Duty NCO...so why would they salute a CAP NCO?  One would not salute an AD officer candidate (ROTC Cadet, OCS, Academy Cadet, Etc) so why would we salute a CAP officer candidate?

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:09:12 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 02:58:52 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 02:56:00 PM
Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

Fixed that for you.   Cadets and officer candidates are NEVER saluted by AD/RES/NG enlisted personnel.  Because they are not officers.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 04:26:17 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 03:24:26 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

Just to provide citation for my assertions:

Quote from: CC Circular 145-11-98Commanders are encouraged to ensure that cadets are given courtesies and respect normally reserved for officers of the U.S. Army. Their military rank is above that of enlisted personnel, but below that of commissioned or warrant officers.

Emphasis is the regulation

Quote3-3. Military courtesy. Cadets will serve in officer positions. Enlisted personnel will be encouraged to salute cadets and address them as "Sir" or Ma'am" or by their title and surname

Emphasis is the regulation.

What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

Quote from: LSThiker on August 11, 2015, 05:34:25 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 11, 2015, 05:17:16 PM
The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

Actually, it does not say salute "all" CAP senior members.  It just states "salute CAP senior members". 

While the publication says "salute Senior Members", the intent, which is just as important, is clear that it meant salute senior member officers and further clarified by Col Lee.  Do not be obtuse about this.


But StormChaser is correct by saying "After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this."

I had a cadet just last week try to pull "but respect on display says..." when I told her not to salute CAP NCOs or CAP members in the polo combo.

There are a lot of people being obtuse about this.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:14:02 AM
What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

CC = US Army Cadet Command
Circular is similar to a Field Manual.  In fact, FM 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies became TC 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies

I will grant you that the whole SMP concept takes bit to get your head wrapped around it.  Frankly I am not sure if the USAF anything similar.  Essentially, SMP are for Guard/Reservists that contract with ROTC but remain Guard/Reservists.  They are bound by Guard/Reserve policies when on Title 32 and ROTC policies any other time.  Meaning, they are still required to fulfill their Reserve duties, such as AT and monthly drills, as well as their ROTC requirements such as LDAC, leadership labs, etc. 

As you know, there are some policies that affect only AD personnel, some policies that affect only Guard, some policies that affect only Reserves, some policies that affect Guard & Reserve but not AD, and some policies that affect only Cadets.  As a way to sort out the issues with the SMP concept, the US Army Cadet Command has dictated to the Guard and Reserves the SMP policies.  Ideally, SMP cadets would fall under an actual 2LT or 1LT and would be double slotted on the MTOE.  However, that is not always the case as a unit may not have enough officers.  So the SMP cadet is officially assigned on the MTOE into a PL position or BN staff officer position (have seen this done with a cadet being assigned as an Assistant S3 at BN as he was already working in the S3 shop when he contracted SMP).

Since the cadet has been billeted an officer position at his/her guard/reserve unit, Cadet Command has stated that commanders are encouraged to extend the C&C for cadets.  Cadet Command cannot mandate this as it would require a HQDA level change.  Therefore, Army cadets in general are never saluted as the regs do not require it.  However, the commander is allowed to require it for his/her unit only, which I have seen both company commanders and battalion commanders require for all personnel under their command.

Further, Cadet Command has tried to rectify how a cadet falls into rank.  As such, it dictates that for when a Cadet is under Title 32 orders with his/her Guard/Reserve unit, they are below officers (including WOs) but above NCOs.  However, they are never at any point allowed any command authority or special officer duties (investigating officer) but can be appointed as Officer-of-the-Day duties or motor pool officer.  Outside of their unit, they fall into a blackbox known as Cadet Command.

This is also different from ROTC cadets that are participating in CTLT with AD units, which I have seen commanders require their enlisted personnel to salute the CTLT cadet.  However, they are always paired with either a 2LT or 1LT.  I am not quite sure as it has been a while, but I am also pretty sure they are not added to the MTOE, but rather just have temporary assignment orders.   Either way, CTLT cadets are a different story. 

Is it clear as mud?

Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess.  :)

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:25:01 AM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. :) To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 03:39:29 AM
Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess.  :)

The U.S. Military --- Making simple stuff complicated since 1775

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:25:01 AM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. :) To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

Bottom line: Be respectful. Follow protocol. If someone corrects you, take it as it comes.

This is why documentation should be written clear and concise to convey the full intent of the authority writing it, and when that intent gets misinterpreted, directives should be published to clarify and the document revised as soon as feasible.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:25:01 AM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. :) To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

A Chief Master Sergeant is Superior to an Airman Basic.....but the Airman does not salute him.

By just doing what you want....and not following the USAF tradition means either a) YOU are too stupid to learn the traditions.  b) CAP is too inept to teach the traditions.

Do it right.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 12, 2015, 12:51:21 PM
Bottom line: Be respectful. Follow protocol. If someone corrects you, take it as it comes.

This is why documentation should be written clear and concise to convey the full intent of the authority writing it, and when that intent gets misinterpreted, directives should be published to clarify and the document revised as soon as feasible.

+1

Major Fail on CAP's part with 151.

But let's hope the rewrite is better.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 01:13:50 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:25:01 AM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. :) To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

A Chief Master Sergeant is Superior to an Airman Basic.....but the Airman does not salute him.

By just doing what you want....and not following the USAF tradition means either a) YOU are too stupid to learn the traditions.  b) CAP is too inept to teach the traditions.

Do it right.

One tradition(and regulation) I've been taught is to do what I'm told. So, yes sir.

It's not stupidity if someone doesn't know or isn't taught correct tradition, especially when CAP is so big in the training courses to reflect that we do things "Air Force-style," not Air Force standard.

CAP has its own standards published, and they need to reflect CAP's expectations of conduct, to include customs and courtesies.

Having military in my background, I'm well aware of who you do and don't salute when it comes to insignia and uniforms, but not everyone understands how they works when they're new to the program, or if they receive bad gouge on military vs. CAP customs. On a lot of occasions, it simply stems from the top-down where some people, especially Senior Members, never learned the correct manner themselves and passed the incorrect way of doing things on to their subordinates.

I've seen Senior Members who wear their BDUs with one sleeve unbuttoned and the other buttoned. I've seen Seniors wearing the wrong cover with their uniform. I've seen Seniors put cadets at ease when talking to the formation, then walk away when they were done, having never put the formation back to attention. I've had a Senior member much higher than myself in grade call me "Sir."

They simply don't know what they're supposed to do when they're in a position that reflect not only the public perception of the unit, but the perception of protocols by the cadets and other Seniors under them. It creates confusion, sloppiness, and unprofessionalism. And it needs to be addressed by higher-level leadership, especially when it comes to writing policies.

In a perfect world:
- Do not salute Seniors without grade
- Do not salute NCOs
- Wear the uniform properly
- Know grades/titles and how to use them properly
- Know what insignia someone is wearing, and when you are required to salute that insignia in which uniform

We don't live in a perfect world, so the strive should be to perfect as much as possible and always work to become better. This includes squadron cadets, squadron Senior Members, and all the leadership in between the squadron and BoG

Quote from: LSThiker on August 12, 2015, 03:32:50 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:14:02 AM
What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

CC = US Army Cadet Command
Circular is similar to a Field Manual.  In fact, FM 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies became TC 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies

I will grant you that the whole SMP concept takes bit to get your head wrapped around it.  Frankly I am not sure if the USAF anything similar.  Essentially, SMP are for Guard/Reservists that contract with ROTC but remain Guard/Reservists.  They are bound by Guard/Reserve policies when on Title 32 and ROTC policies any other time.  Meaning, they are still required to fulfill their Reserve duties, such as AT and monthly drills, as well as their ROTC requirements such as LDAC, leadership labs, etc. 

As you know, there are some policies that affect only AD personnel, some policies that affect only Guard, some policies that affect only Reserves, some policies that affect Guard & Reserve but not AD, and some policies that affect only Cadets.  As a way to sort out the issues with the SMP concept, the US Army Cadet Command has dictated to the Guard and Reserves the SMP policies.  Ideally, SMP cadets would fall under an actual 2LT or 1LT and would be double slotted on the MTOE.  However, that is not always the case as a unit may not have enough officers.  So the SMP cadet is officially assigned on the MTOE into a PL position or BN staff officer position (have seen this done with a cadet being assigned as an Assistant S3 at BN as he was already working in the S3 shop when he contracted SMP).

Since the cadet has been billeted an officer position at his/her guard/reserve unit, Cadet Command has stated that commanders are encouraged to extend the C&C for cadets.  Cadet Command cannot mandate this as it would require a HQDA level change.  Therefore, Army cadets in general are never saluted as the regs do not require it.  However, the commander is allowed to require it for his/her unit only, which I have seen both company commanders and battalion commanders require for all personnel under their command.

Further, Cadet Command has tried to rectify how a cadet falls into rank.  As such, it dictates that for when a Cadet is under Title 32 orders with his/her Guard/Reserve unit, they are below officers (including WOs) but above NCOs.  However, they are never at any point allowed any command authority or special officer duties (investigating officer) but can be appointed as Officer-of-the-Day duties or motor pool officer.  Outside of their unit, they fall into a blackbox known as Cadet Command.

This is also different from ROTC cadets that are participating in CTLT with AD units, which I have seen commanders require their enlisted personnel to salute the CTLT cadet.  However, they are always paired with either a 2LT or 1LT.  I am not quite sure as it has been a while, but I am also pretty sure they are not added to the MTOE, but rather just have temporary assignment orders.   Either way, CTLT cadets are a different story. 

Is it clear as mud?

The Air Force Reserve and the Air National Guard do not do anything like this.

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 02:25:01 AM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 11, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good. :) :) :)

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. :) To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

I had a break in CAP service. I left as a captain. When I came back in 1997, I had to complete Level One and meet the new training requirements. Meanwhile, I claimed 1st Lt on the strength of my long ago Earhart. But...it wasn't official until NHQ said it was official and I had my approved Form 2 in hand.

So - I was a SMWOG. I wore my uniform as per then-current regulations. No grade insignia, had cutouts on my collar and a flight cap with a blue braid. I was not an officer.

If a cadet major had come up to me then and saluted, I would have done these things, virtually simultaneously:

1) Thought "This guy is a Cadet MAJOR and is saluting me? What!?"
2) Returned the salute. (It's the polite thing to do. Not doing so is boorish, in my opinion).
3) Engaged said C/Maj in a short chat about what are and are not officers in CAP.

Which all means - if some pamphlet in 1997 was telling people to salute non-officer CAP members, and said pamphlet is still providing those instructions, then that is one genuinely long-lived typo.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 03:39:29 AM
Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess.  :)

I've never thought of it as a mess, it makes perfect sense.

On the job training can be the best training. Making mistakes as a SMP Cadet means less mistakes as a 2LT/1LT, the SMP concept is an invaluable tool.

Requiring the Enlisted personnel who are working for an SMP Cadet to respect his/her "rank" and follow his/her instruction is part of that training.

The Army has been doing this program for over twenty years now and it works.

Quote from: shuman14 on August 14, 2015, 09:06:09 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 12, 2015, 03:39:29 AM
Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess.  :)

I've never thought of it as a mess, it makes perfect sense.

On the job training can be the best training. Making mistakes as a SMP Cadet means less mistakes as a 2LT/1LT, the SMP concept is an invaluable tool.

Requiring the Enlisted personnel who are working for an SMP Cadet to respect his/her "rank" and follow his/her instruction is part of that training.

The Army has been doing this program for over twenty years now and it works.

But, admit it - the whole business is sloppy.

As you've described it, it comes down to individual COs telling people "Even though Cadet Hobgoblin is not an officer, I am decreeing that he shall receive the courtesies of an officer, even though he has not completed the course of instruction, has not been commissioned by the civilian authority that controls the armed forces of the United States, but solely because I think that you should respect him."

What's stopping them from saying "Even though they are not officers, I am decreeing that the baristas at Starbucks just off post are hard working people who deserve your respect, so you should stand at attention when placing your orders for your Supercalifragimochaccinodulce lattes?"

QuoteBut, admit it - the whole business is sloppy. 

It is, the SMP system should be address in actual Field manual and/or Regulation not just a Cadet Command Circular which either formalizes the courtesies or negates them.

But the same could be said of CAP. An USAF commander could say all the same things about CAP 1LT Hobgoblin, within his/her sphere of command and control, and you'd have Airmen presenting courtesies to CAP Officers.

All I can say is it works for the Army, and it has for 20+ years. It might not work for the USAF, USN, USMC and USCG but the program isn't going away for the Army, in fact I'd say it has increased in use and popularity since I was an SMP many moons ago.

Quote from: shuman14 on August 15, 2015, 03:39:19 PM

QuoteBut, admit it - the whole business is sloppy. 

It is, the SMP system should be address in actual Field manual and/or Regulation not just a Cadet Command Circular which either formalizes the courtesies or negates them.

But the same could be said of CAP. An USAF commander could say all the same things about CAP 1LT Hobgoblin, within his/her sphere of command and control, and you'd have Airmen presenting courtesies to CAP Officers.

All I can say is it works for the Army, and it has for 20+ years. It might not work for the USAF, USN, USMC and USCG but the program isn't going away for the Army, in fact I'd say it has increased in use and popularity since I was an SMP many moons ago.

Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Quote from: PHall on August 15, 2015, 04:41:50 PM


Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation?  :o

Quote from: shuman14 on August 15, 2015, 07:55:59 PM

Quote from: PHall on August 15, 2015, 04:41:50 PM


Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation?  :o

Because they are not entitled to them for starters. The only courtesies they entitled to are the same ones any civilian gets. i.e. Be Civil.

Quote from: shuman14 on August 15, 2015, 07:55:59 PM

Quote from: PHall on August 15, 2015, 04:41:50 PM


Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation?  :o

Here's your answer:

Quote from: AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Depends if it's being required or if it's being done out of mutual respect, but even then it's up to the individual I'd think in regards to this conversation (active duty to cap) To me, a salute is just a sign of respect. I don't really care if I technically don't have to salute someone, if in my eyes they deserve that respect I'm saluting regardless. I salute my commander if I'm in uniform, even if he's not. It just seems more sincere if you do it even when it's not required. So if I were an ADAF officer and a CAP Colonel walked by you better believe I'd salute him, required or not. 

I wouldn't require my officers to do that though if I was commander, I could easily see how that could get ugly. I'd tell them it's their decision.

And if I was saluted by an AF officer I'd think that was pretty cool and I'd certainly appreciate the gesture based on mutual respect. But I would never expect it or be offended if they didn't.

It is also written into AFI34-1201 who gets saluted and when.  And it's sad that the enlisted of a sister branch has to treat someone in manner they are not entitled to nor have earned.

Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

Since there is no law that says "thou shall not salute CAP Officers or ROTC/Academy/OCS cadets"  It would not be an unlawful order.

But that is as far as it would go.

Like I said....it should be simple.  Salute Commissioned and Warrant Officers and President of the United States.   Leave all the rest at home.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 16, 2015, 04:46:35 AM
Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

+1 they are base on law and custom.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 16, 2015, 04:46:35 AM
Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

Great point. 

From a military forum...

http://www.afforums.com/index.php?threads/saluting-civil-air-patrol-officers.20091/page-4

"Gang when it comes to CAP officers, no, members of the armed forces are not required to salute them no matter how big and shiny their rank, which is identical in name and appearance to the Air Force, is because they are simply not commisioned officers in the US Armed Forces. Is it wrong. Not really. Simply not required. Being required to obey thier "orders" seems a bit far fetched as their "authority" over military members is not vested by the UCMJ, and even amongst their ranks is simply a matter of internal policy and consent of the members. I can see being told to address them by rank, when working with them in an offiical capacity as it's simply courteous. Just as addressing any civilian by a title that they have recieved....like police, fire fighters, doctors, clergy, elected officials....CAP officers do have to earn thier promotions through the requirements of the organization, which by the way has existed LONGER than the US Air Force. There is an established method to thier rank system. Its not like the CAP is some fly by night orgainization whipped together by some drinking buddies in the backwoods or praires who grab up some ragidy BDU's at the Good Will, declare themselves a militia, assign themselves ranks and "train" for God knows what.

What this boils down to is this...dont wanna salute CAP officers...FINE...dont...legally, morally, and ethicaly it's all good not to...If you wanna salute them... FINE...do...leagally, morally, ethicaly it's all good if you do....it isnt a problem to not salute them and its not a degradation to salute them..."

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 15, 2015, 08:16:40 PM
Here's your answer:

Quote from: AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 16, 2015, 04:14:00 AM
It is also written into AFI34-1201 who gets saluted and when.  And it's sad that the enlisted of a sister branch has to treat someone in manner they are not entitled to nor have earned.

It's a system that's been in place, in the Army for well over twenty years and it works and it has a purpose. If an SMP Cadet is in charge, as the platoon leader, he entitled to respect and followership. Junior Enlist will emulate their NCOs. So if the Company Commander directs (as he/she should) in the firstline leadership meeting to his staff and senior NCOs "Treat the Cadet as the Officer leading/commanding that platoon" then the Cadet is entitled to certain courtesies, which includes salutes, being addressed as Sir/Ma'am and coming to the position of attention.

This is a learning tool for the Cadet as well. He learns to become comfortable with far more experienced (in most cases) subordinates calling him/her Sir/Ma'am, being saluted on a regular basis, confident that when he/she issues an order it will be acknowledged and followed by those subordinates.

Far better for that Cadet to makes the "Louie Mistakes" as a Cadet, than as a 2LT and, as a Nation still at war with terrorism, THAT saves lives down range.

When running a Platoon and dealing with real Troops, a SMP Cadet cannot learn to be Lieutenant unless he/she is treat like a Lieutenant.

I get that the Air Force doesn't have system like this, that it might not work for it's school of thought on Officer basic leadership, but it does work for the Army and has been producing quality leaders for over a generation.

Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 16, 2015, 09:06:05 PM
Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

Occasionally there's incense and chanting too.

And hugs... lots of hugs. Do you need a hug 51? (Standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.)  :)

Quote from: shuman14 on August 16, 2015, 09:42:30 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 16, 2015, 09:06:05 PM
Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

Occasionally there's incense and chanting too.

And hugs... lots of hugs. Do you need a hug 51? (Standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.)  :)

Nope.  Just says something is all. 

Darn.  :-[

I shaved very close this morning in anticipation of giving you a hug today. (Still standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.)  :)

Hugging you would be a major malfunction.

Very pun-ny.  :P

Quote from: shuman14 on August 16, 2015, 03:04:31 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 15, 2015, 08:16:40 PM
Here's your answer:

Quote from: AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

Quote from: AR 600-25, 1-5b
All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.

Quote from: AR 600-25, 1-5e
It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The commanding general, U.S. European Command; the commanding general, U.S. Army Europe and Seventh U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Forces Korea and Eighth U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Army, Pacific; and commanding general, U.S. Army, Southern Command, are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition courtesies prevailing locally for foreign officials. Should inactivation eliminate any of these commands, the authority will pass down to the next level of command. This authority will not be delegated further.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 17, 2015, 04:42:44 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on August 16, 2015, 03:04:31 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on August 15, 2015, 08:16:40 PM
Here's your answer:

Quote from: AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

Quote from: AR 600-25, 1-5b
All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.

Quote from: AR 600-25, 1-5e
It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The commanding general, U.S. European Command; the commanding general, U.S. Army Europe and Seventh U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Forces Korea and Eighth U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Army, Pacific; and commanding general, U.S. Army, Southern Command, are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition courtesies prevailing locally for foreign officials. Should inactivation eliminate any of these commands, the authority will pass down to the next level of command. This authority will not be delegated further.

Completely agree with you, Storm Chaser, and appreciate the AFI/AR references you cited.


The topic of rendering salutes, once again, came up between the Seniors at the squadron meeting yesterday.

Commander feels all Seniors should be saluted, based on the regs, even NCOs. The 151 Pamphlet, again, does not distinguish the difference.

Deputy Commander disagrees. He feels Senior Member NCOs should not be saluted, nor should CAP be saluted by any military persons; however, he agrees that the current wording published by Top is what needs to be enforced until changed.

PAO agrees with Deputy Commander, with the exception that Seniors without grade should be rendered a salute, with the exception of Senior Member NCOs.

I turned the discussion to the fact that CAP regs state that CAP is to salute all ranking military officers, who are not required to salute CAP, although encouraged. My point was that the military does not get briefed on CAP regs, which do not apply to their courtesies whatsoever. The Air Force is the only branch that touches on this as far as I know. And unless the DoD is going to address the subject, I think it would be responsible for CAP to amend its regulations regarding this subject to be clear and concise for all CAP members, as well as recognize the other courtesies we render to the Armed Forces, which CAP is not.

Several cadets have recently brought up that they're required to address all persons outside of CAP as "Sir/Ma'am," which is incorrect, as military personnel who are NCOs are lower are not referred to this by other military members, with the exception of some branch-specific diversions from that rule (i.e., USMC Drill Instructors during training). Air Force NCOs are referred to by grade and last name; however, there is no official reference that I found regarding other branches. Of course, we, using common sense, already know this applies to all NCOs of all branches of the military, and should apply to junior enlisted personnel as well. But what's happening is a significant inconsistency coming from people in CAP leadership positions, both Seniors and Cadets.

It's becoming very frustrating and annoying to deal with these questions repeatedly, especially when publications to regulate and guide CAP members don't coincide with traditional customs and courtesies of the Air Force and other military branches.

I think it's time CAP big wigs work on the standardization and uniformity of all CAP customs and courtesies and their interfacing with the military. And if they want to continue to argue this "We aren't part of the Air Force" stance, employing the "Air Force-style..." implementation of our practices, then we need to recognize that we aren't the USAF Aux.

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 03:58:14 PM

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

Me either.   ;D

Quote
I think it would be responsible for CAP to amend its regulations regarding this subject to be clear and concise for all CAP members, as well as recognize the other courtesies we render to the Armed Forces, which CAP is not.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Could you explain?

Quote
It's becoming very frustrating and annoying to deal with these questions repeatedly, especially when publications to regulate and guide CAP members don't coincide with traditional customs and courtesies of the Air Force and other military branches.

That seems surprising to me.  I'd have thought that we were pretty well aligned with DoD C&C.

(Plus/ minus the typo in the pam regarding saluting all senior members)

What am I missing?

QuoteI think it's time CAP big wigs work on the standardization and uniformity of all CAP customs and courtesies and their interfacing with the military. And if they want to continue to argue this "We aren't part of the Air Force" stance, employing the "Air Force-style..." implementation of our practices, then we need to recognize that we aren't the USAF Aux.

I'm pretty sure I can promise that I won't use the "we aren't part of the Air Force stance."  But again, I'm still a little unsure of what your immediate concerns are.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

(The OPR for CAPP 151)

Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2015, 04:15:12 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 03:58:14 PM

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

Me either.   ;D

Disregard that. Having been on message boards enough in my life, I should have known that everybody's a keyboard warrior :P

Quote
I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Could you explain?

What I meant by that was that I think it's time to make those revisions happen, as they appear to have been discussed repeatedly on here but the numerous questions that have come up over the years. There needs to be added clarity, and ensuring that the intent by which regulations are written matches the wording of the text.

CAP is not an "Armed Force." That must is clear. CAP is not the military. The military does not include CAP. But if we're going to conduct ourselves as the auxiliary civilian component of the Air Force, I think we should exclude the "Air Force-style" way of operating and mirror Air Force C&C, especially on-paper, while still clarifying that we are not military and are not warranted to have courtesies rendered to us by the military. Military personnel not encouraged to salute CAP officers, regardless of what information CAP says about it. CAP officers hold no military rank or authority. CAP members should address the military according to Air Force courtesies, to include correcting any military personnel that salute CAP officers as superior officials. That's what I was getting at.

Quote
I'd have thought that we were pretty well aligned with DoD C&C.

(Plus/ minus the typo in the pam regarding saluting all senior members)

What am I missing?

It's incredibly sporadic across the country as to how squadrons implement and enforce C&C. I think a lot of it comes from leaders who not only don't know military courtesies to begin with, but they don't bother to read the information available to them anyhow, enhancing their overall ignorance. I don't mean to say "ignorance" as a bad thing, as if they're being neglectful, but they simply don't know, and when they don't know, they pass bad gouge down to subordinates who, in turn, also don't know.

Quote
I'm pretty sure I can promise that I won't use the "we aren't part of the Air Force stance."  But again, I'm still a little unsure of what your immediate concerns are.

Going back to my previous response to this above...
The "we aren't part of the Air Force" seems to stem down at the lower levels of the organization. Either we are part of the Air Force, or we aren't. It seems to be reflected in publications that CAP is an "Air Force-style" organization, but not Air Force. I would personally like to see CAP personnel, especially at the squadron level, to be reflective of the Air Force as the auxiliary non-combat force. CAP has a clear mission to support the Air Force and engage in non-combative defense of the Country and lifesaving emergency operations. I've seen too many times where leaders in CAP take the stance that this is not the Air Force, and we don't operate as the Air Force. This is something that furthermore needs to be clarified from the top brass of CAP and reinforced to reflect the intent of CAP's missions. Either this is the USAF Aux or this is the Not Affiliated USAF Aux.

As for CAPP 151, it has been brought up to me verbally now by people who have read it and said they don't see what the "typo" is, and they're going off of the way it's written. You say it's a typo. I believe you. I fully and completely understand the intent of the pamphlet. But the people who aren't frequenting these boards, which consists of most of CAP, have zero awareness of that matter. They download a PDF, read it, and say 'Salute all Senior Members." And that's when the cadets go to encampment, salute a Senior NCO, and get chewed out by the First Sergeant. Then they go back to their home squadron, start asking about it, and the room gets filled with 10 different answers, and by the end of the day, nobody knows the correct answer. I've been around enough to know exactly what courtesies get rendered in the military. I've been there. But a lot of people in CAP don't know the difference, and it's coming down from the exact pamphlet you wrote which you say you know there is an error.

I don't feel I'm making a big deal out of this, but it keeps coming back around as if it's something to get over. I'm over it. I know the correct way to do things. But I'm telling you that all across the country, there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin' clue. Your pamphlet is wrong. It's non-defensible. We'll wait for the revision.

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

I'm not trying to disagree.  I'm just the guy who will probably have to draft any revisions to CAPP 151, and I'm trying to make sure I understand what you want me to do.

Mostly so I only have to do it once.

Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2015, 05:52:16 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

I'm not trying to disagree.  I'm just the guy who will probably have to draft any revisions to CAPP 151, and I'm trying to make sure I understand what you want me to do.

Mostly so I only have to do it once.

At this point, maybe this is something that should either be brought up in a separate post specifically for this topic, or we take it to the Private Messages.

Every time this gets discussed on this thread, it takes away from the initial post.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
CAP is not an "Armed Force." That must is clear. CAP is not the military. The military does not include CAP. But if we're going to conduct ourselves as the auxiliary civilian component of the Air Force, I think we should exclude the "Air Force-style" way of operating and mirror Air Force C&C, especially on-paper, while still clarifying that we are not military and are not warranted to have courtesies rendered to us by the military. Military personnel not encouraged to salute CAP officers, regardless of what information CAP says about it. CAP officers hold no military rank or authority. CAP members should address the military according to Air Force courtesies, to include correcting any military personnel that salute CAP officers as superior officials. That's what I was getting at.

How is that different from how it is currently being done?  Everything in there is exactly how it is being done with CAP.  Also, nowhere does CAP say that military salute CAP.  Individual members, perhaps, but they are wrong period. 

QuoteEither this is the USAF Aux or this is the Not Affiliated USAF Aux.

It is not as simple as that as dictated by the USAF.  On certain missions we operate as the USAF Aux while on other missions we operate solely as CAP.  So it is not a black or white situation.

QuoteI've been around enough to know exactly what courtesies get rendered in the military. I've been there.

Sorry, usually I do not comment on this, but I will.  2 years in Army ROTC, which you claim that you were an assistant operations officer/NCO when you were really the Cadet S3, and 2 months in Officer Training Command Newport is not really having "been there". 

QuoteBut I'm telling you that all across the country, there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin' clue.

I would not say there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin clue that you do not salute SM NCOs.  From my interactions with cadets and squadron around this nation, I would say that commanders telling cadets they need to salute NCOs is really a minority.  Being that you have only been a member since March 2015, how much interaction have you had with squadrons around the nation?

QuoteWe've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

If you want to drop it, it is as simple as not responding anymore. 

Thousands was definitely an overreach.

If you want to discuss my military background, exposure, whatever you want to call it, shoot me a private message. I was making a point that I've received enough instruction on customs and courtesies to know what the traditions are, who to address, and when to render what to whom. Two and a half years between ROTC and OCS, while perhaps limited, should be enough time to know to whom you salute or don't. And if that isn't, then I would argue CAP members wouldn't know the difference, especially considering that half the Senior Members I've met don't know when the render courtesies or wear the uniform properly. CAP isn't all golden with honor guard quality uniformity and precision. Somewhere in the mix, these folks have fallen through the cracks, and when it gets brought up on here by the smallest minority possible, it's regarded by some as a non-existing fact.

CAP needs to do a better job of breaking down their exact intentions and disseminating that with members. Obviously this stuff is written down, but the continuous questions being posed on this board seem to indicate that there are a lot of people who aren't getting that information from their squadrons, which I believe goes back to squadron commanders. Either we're appointing people into positions with minimal understanding of military tradition or we're doing a bad job of teaching them once they assume that position.

The top-down leadership in CAP from wing to squadron sucks. Maybe that isn't the case across the entire county, but in my locale, it sucks. I do my part in my squadron and help out with what I can, and when I see something I believe to be a potential issue, I bring it to the table for discussion. It gets accepted or rejected. Fair enough. Nothing personal about it. Don't make it personal. Don't take it personal.

And I agree, the topic is over with on my end.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2015, 06:40:25 PM
If you want to discuss my military background, exposure, whatever you want to call it, shoot me a private message. I was making a point that I've received enough instruction on customs and courtesies to know what the traditions are, who to address, and when to render what to whom. Two and a half years between ROTC and OCS, while perhaps limited, should be enough time to know to whom you salute or don't. And if that isn't, then I would argue CAP members wouldn't know the difference, especially considering that half the Senior Members I've met don't know when the render courtesies or wear the uniform properly. CAP isn't all golden with honor guard quality uniformity and precision. Somewhere in the mix, these folks have fallen through the cracks, and when it gets brought up on here by the smallest minority possible, it's regarded by some as a non-existing fact.

Oh I am not taking any of this as personal. 

But I was bring this up because of this:

Quote
Several cadets have recently brought up that they're required to address all persons outside of CAP as "Sir/Ma'am," which is incorrect, as military personnel who are NCOs are lower are not referred to this by other military members, with the exception of some branch-specific diversions from that rule (i.e., USMC Drill Instructors during training). Air Force NCOs are referred to by grade and last name; however, there is no official reference that I found regarding other branches.

You sure about that?  Did you know that in the USAF, it is becoming customary to address NCOs as "sir/ma'am" from lower ranking personnel?

So we don't salute each other in the blue polo shirt then? [emoji5]️

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

Quote from: veritec on August 17, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

Sorry to burst your fun bubble for your snarky proposed question :)

QuoteFor senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

Quote from: veritec on August 17, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia.  :P

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:50:48 PM

Quote from: veritec on August 17, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia.  :P

All kidding aside, there would be visible insignia if they're wearing the black fleece, which is authorized with the polo shirt.

Why not have them ask the command Chief?   He will say don't salute NCOs. Problem solved. 

Well, I see it's still the same old Captalk. Going back in my hole for another year. Puxatawney Phil, OUT!

QuoteAR 600-25, 1-5b

QuoteAR 600-25, 1-5e

Storm Chaser,

Respectfully,no where in 1-5b does it state that SMP cadets, CAP personnel or etc. "shall not be rendered courtesies", only those who MUST be rendered courtesies.

Also, 1-5e has no barring, as SMP cadets, CAP personnel or etc. are NOT Friendly Foreign entities.

I'll stand by my revised statement.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:50:48 PM

Quote from: veritec on August 17, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia.  :P

Don't salute for whatever reason is applicable. But please don't use "no headgear" as the reason or even as a reason. That's a sea service thing, not applicable to CAP, which uses USAF saluting rules as borrowed from Army rules that contain no such limitation.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 22, 2015, 03:11:54 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:50:48 PM

Quote from: veritec on August 17, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2015, 08:40:17 PM
That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   >:D

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia.  :P

Don't salute for whatever reason is applicable. But please don't use "no headgear" as the reason or even as a reason. That's a sea service thing, not applicable to CAP, which uses USAF saluting rules as borrowed from Army rules that contain no such limitation.

I agree the no-headgear "rule" cannot apply to CAP since the corporate aviator shirt uniform can be worn without a hat. But in the Air Force, no-headger areas are usually designated no-salute areas as well.

But in the Sea Services (Navy and Marines) one does not salute if not covered.

In the USAF we salute indoors and uncovered on several occasions (getting awards, reporting to officers in the office, etc.).
This is not something the Navy or the USMC do.

I had a USMC staff sergeant in my NCO academy class and we had a long discussion about this when we were practicing for the awards ceremony.   

When in Rome...

Just out of curiosity, what's the record for number of views on a thread...I was hoping I could get a ribbon (or maybe a patch?) [emoji23]

Quote from: xray328 on August 22, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, what's the record for number of views on a thread...I was hoping I could get a ribbon (or maybe a patch?) (https://s3.amazonaws.com/tapatalk-emoji/emoji23.png)

You've got a l-o-o-o-ong way to go. This may not be the "record", but there have been 140,658 views of the 'official "I'm here!" thread.' First post on March 23, 2005, with a total of 1,281.