Looks mostly administrative, removes reference to promotion requirements, clarifies that only seniors get conference credit for PD
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R050_017_AAC4BB3089BE0.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R050_017_AAC4BB3089BE0.pdf)
Hey! that's my suggestion!!!!
Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2015, 05:00:22 PM
Hey! that's my suggestion!!!!
It's about time that they're listening to people that know what they're talking about!
I had a long conversation with the national PDO about how the wording was confusing. Now if we can just convince them to drop the requirement all together.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2015, 05:11:10 PM
I had a long conversation with the national PDO about how the wording was confusing. Now if we can just convince them to drop the requirement all together.
Agreed, but it's a good start. Nice work, and keep it up. Your ability to get the wheels greased just makes for a better organization.
So much for the rumor that it was being completely revamped.
There's also a new Level 1 about to hit the streets in a week or so. Stay tuned...
Quote from: Alaric on June 08, 2015, 02:34:42 PM
clarifies that only seniors get conference credit for PD
Good they are listening to the field, but I never did understand why people thought that seniors going to a conference as a cadet would satisfy that requirement. To each their own I guess.
Quote from: LSThiker on June 08, 2015, 09:33:01 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 08, 2015, 02:34:42 PM
clarifies that only seniors get conference credit for PD
Good they are listening to the field, but I never did understand why people thought that seniors going to a conference as a cadet would satisfy that requirement. To each their own I guess.
1) Because it didn't say you couldn't
2) Many older cadets actually go to the senior seminars because they are more interesting than having a recruiter come talk to you for the 271st time
Quote from: LSThiker on June 08, 2015, 09:33:01 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 08, 2015, 02:34:42 PM
clarifies that only seniors get conference credit for PD
Good they are listening to the field, but I never did understand why people thought that seniors going to a conference as a cadet would satisfy that requirement. To each their own I guess.
Why not?
18 year old senior member went to a conference as a 17 year old cadet....does not count.
60 year old senior member went to a conference as a 20 year old senior member counts.
If they changed it to "attended a conference in the last XX years" it would make a lot more sense.
But to each their own.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2015, 10:08:07 PM
If they changed it to "attended a conference in the last XX years" it would make a lot more sense.
Yes, yes it would.
Quote
18 year old senior member went to a conference as a 17 year old cadet....does not count.
60 year old senior member went to a conference as a 20 year old senior member counts.
But to each their own.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on June 08, 2015, 10:05:06 PM
1) Because it didn't say you couldn't
2) Many older cadets actually go to the senior seminars because they are more interesting than having a recruiter come talk to you for the 271st time
I understand all of that. As a cadet, I mostly attended the "senior member" activities. Learned a great deal more than attending the "cadet" functions. Although, if they are listening to a recruiter for the 271st time, I think it is time for better leadership in planning relevant and interesting activities for cadets at all age groups and ranks. Nonetheless, I get what you are saying. However, if I went to a wing conference and all I did was attend the activities specifically geared towards cadets, then that is not quite the spirit of the regulation.
As to why not? Well as a cadet, if I were to attend an SLS or CLC, I would not get credit. I would not get credit for teaching at one either, even though I did not numerous times. I had the tendency to teach the cadet programs sections, uniforms, and some other items in the old days. Even though I had a "tech" rating in communications and ES as a cadet, I was not given credit for it as a senior member. There are quite a few more examples of things done as a cadet that won't get transferred to the senior member.
Granted, there are a few items that do (i.e. particularly in the ES specialties).
Either way, it has been clarified so moving forward will be better.
SLS/CLC have always been geared towards SMs. TLC/UCC as well. Conferences are not, and some wings used the PD as a carrot for cadets...
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2015, 03:04:45 PM
SLS/CLC have always been geared towards SMs. TLC/UCC as well.
The Senior Member Professional Development Program. That's what's known as a clue.
I guess I'll have to update my universal reg PDF in short order...
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2015, 03:04:45 PM
SLS/CLC have always been geared towards SMs. TLC/UCC as well. Conferences are not, and some wings used the PD as a carrot for cadets...
Yes, SLS, CLC, UCC, and TLC are geared towards SMs. Conferences themselves are not geared towards SMs. However, the requirement to attend 2 conferences is a requirement for Senior Member Professional Development. Therefore, allowing that credit to transfer made no sense to me. In addition, the specialty tracks are also geared towards senior members, yet we allow cadets to "earn the badge" for ES, Comm, IT, and History. Once they transfer to the SM, they still need to complete time in track for it.
No longer allowed credit for cadet attendance does not prohibit cadets from attending the activity. If they want to learn and attend the SM courses, then they are obviously free to do so. Then again, like I said, if said cadet no longer wants to attend the cadet activities (simply because he/she is not interested or is sick of attending the same old activities), then perhaps a review by leadership is in order so that the activities are meaningful for cadets of all ranks and ages.
Quote from: LSThiker on June 11, 2015, 03:52:08 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2015, 03:04:45 PM
SLS/CLC have always been geared towards SMs. TLC/UCC as well. Conferences are not, and some wings used the PD as a carrot for cadets...
Once they transfer to the SM, they still need to complete time in track for it.
Not quite. They have to complete the time requirements before earning the badge. The only thing that they can't complete as cadets is Level 1 of the senior member PD program. If you have an 18+ Mitchell cadet turn senior, award of Level 1 and the ES, Comm, and whatever other badge they have earned as a cadet is essentially instantaneous. We also already recognize Cadet achievement as having weight in the Senior PD program by awarding CP tech and senior ratings as well as level 2, Yeager, and OBC credit to cadets based on earning the Earhart, Eaker, or Spaatz. So if we're already giving cadets PD credit for other things that they're doing, why not give them credit for attending conferences?
Quote from: jeders on June 11, 2015, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on June 11, 2015, 03:52:08 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2015, 03:04:45 PM
SLS/CLC have always been geared towards SMs. TLC/UCC as well. Conferences are not, and some wings used the PD as a carrot for cadets...
Once they transfer to the SM, they still need to complete time in track for it.
Not quite. They have to complete the time requirements before earning the badge. The only thing that they can't complete as cadets is Level 1 of the senior member PD program. If you have an 18+ Mitchell cadet turn senior, award of Level 1 and the ES, Comm, and whatever other badge they have earned as a cadet is essentially instantaneous. We also already recognize Cadet achievement as having weight in the Senior PD program by awarding CP tech and senior ratings as well as level 2, Yeager, and OBC credit to cadets based on earning the Earhart, Eaker, or Spaatz. So if we're already giving cadets PD credit for other things that they're doing, why not give them credit for attending conferences?
Not quite. They have to complete time in position for the history and IT.
QuoteCadets may serve as a Cadet Historian under a senior member Historical Officer. This does not fulfill a staff duty analysis requirement. Cadets can earn the Basic Historian Qualification Badge (Technician Rating Badge) if they can complete all of the requirements for the Technician Rating, but they cannot officially receive the Technician Rating until they become a senior member and complete the required time as historian or assistant historian as reflected in eServices as well as any other task requiring it be completed by a member holding the duty position of historian or assistant historian.
Quote from: ITThe wear of the badge as a cadet does not translate to the earned technician rating once a cadet becomes a senior member. Cadets who become senior members will need to complete all of the requirements established at the time that they complete the training as a senior member.
Quote from: Alaric on June 08, 2015, 02:34:42 PM
...clarifies that only seniors get conference credit for PD
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R050_017_AAC4BB3089BE0.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R050_017_AAC4BB3089BE0.pdf)
I guess I'm just not sure what the difference is between attending a conference as a cadet and attending the same conference as a senior. If the rationale is that seniors attend seminars more relevant to PD, specialty track, grade, etc, make that the requirement.
For example, to make level III you need to have attended 2 conferences, at least 1 of which your squadron commander needs to assert included your participation in a seminar relevant to squadron management.
Quote from: Tim Day on June 11, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
For example, to make level III you need to have attended 2 conferences, at least 1 of which your squadron commander needs to assert included your participation in a seminar relevant to squadron management.
Whoa! Where is THAT written?
I see the reference in CAPR 50-17 Section 5-1.d to attending two conferences, but not the part I highlighted in red.
??? ??? ???
Quote from: Tim Day on June 11, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
I guess I'm just not sure what the difference is between attending a conference as a cadet and attending the same conference as a senior.
Probably for the same reason why cadet time does not count towards CAP "retirement". Cadet service is just that cadet service except when noted due to specific achievements and levels of knowledge.
Quote from: MacGruff on June 11, 2015, 02:12:57 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on June 11, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
For example, to make level III you need to have attended 2 conferences, at least 1 of which your squadron commander needs to assert included your participation in a seminar relevant to squadron management.
Whoa! Where is THAT written?
I see the reference in CAPR 50-17 Section 5-1.d to attending two conferences, but not the part I highlighted in red.
??? ??? ???
That is what he is proposing NHQ should write.
Quote from: LSThiker on June 11, 2015, 02:20:03 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on June 11, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
I guess I'm just not sure what the difference is between attending a conference as a cadet and attending the same conference as a senior.
Probably for the same reason why cadet time does not count towards CAP "retirement". Cadet service is just that cadet service except when noted due to specific achievements and levels of knowledge.
I understand time in grade requirements, "in grade" implying senior grade for seniors as well as the difference in qualification of time served for retirement purposes.
I have assumed the conference attendance was a training requirement, however, CAPR 50-17 does list it under the heading of "leadership". Perhaps the rationale is that senior member attendance at conference serves a leadership function, which would explain why attendance as a cadet shouldn't count, since even a 20.9 year old Spaatz cadet needs a senior member sponsor.
While that would make sense to me, the CAPR 50-17 rationale for attending conference in para 5-1d is:
QuoteThese conferences afford CAP members a broad view of the CAP Corporation's organization and expose them to the issues confronting CAP.
If that paragraph is the rationale, I don't see how cadet or senior status makes a difference. If the rationale is Level III candidates should demonstrate leadership by attending conferences, I'd recommend so stating in para 5-1d.
Quote from: Tim Day on June 11, 2015, 03:18:39 PM
I understand time in grade requirements, "in grade" implying senior grade for seniors as well as the difference in qualification of time served for retirement purposes.
I have assumed the conference attendance was a training requirement, however, CAPR 50-17 does list it under the heading of "leadership". Perhaps the rationale is that senior member attendance at conference serves a leadership function, which would explain why attendance as a cadet shouldn't count, since even a 20.9 year old Spaatz cadet needs a senior member sponsor.
While that would make sense to me, the CAPR 50-17 rationale for attending conference in para 5-1d is:
QuoteThese conferences afford CAP members a broad view of the CAP Corporation's organization and expose them to the issues confronting CAP.
If that paragraph is the rationale, I don't see how cadet or senior status makes a difference. If the rationale is Level III candidates should demonstrate leadership by attending conferences, I'd recommend so stating in para 5-1d.
I would say it is both. Exposing leaders to a broad view of CAP Corporation's organization and exposing them to the issuing confronting CAP.
Either way, NHQ has spoken on the clarification. The only people that can answer the why is NHQ. Anything beyond that is just speculation and opinion.
Whatever the reason, at least now it's clarified.
Does it make sense? Doesn't have to.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 11, 2015, 05:32:49 PM
Does it make sense? Doesn't have to.
This is one of the true beauties of regulations. Things don't have to make sense. They just have to be done
that way.