Hey y'all,
I was selected to be on the Mess Staff for an upcoming Encampment, and I was looking for former "messers" to shine some light on what the duty is like.
Any information would be great. I'll take rumors and gossip on the job even!
Wake up early. Clean. Make food. Serve food. Clean. Repeat. >:D
Seriously, I don't know if it's any different from when I was a cadet on KP. We just assisted the RM mess staff who were in charge of the DFACS by serving and cleaning. We had to get up an hour before everyone else and help. Those on evening KP had to clean a LOT and go to bed later. The upside was they got to sleep in a bit and eat a late breakfast.
I was selected for the same position in VA wing. From what I can tell, it is basically what Garibaldi said... This year we have three different cadet teams on the Dining Service so we will be trading off shifts at breakfast, lunch and dinner. Our senior members are AWESOME this year too. I feel that we are going to have one of the greatest teams at encampment to date. Oh, and we have to make our own food instead of serving prepared food from other people. I hope you have as much luck as we have.
2013 NYWG SVS NCO,
Lots of fun. Wake up early, prep DFAC, prep breakfast, get drinks ready, set out food made by Base Staff, serve, clean up DFAC, clean trays, clean kitchen, take 2 hour break and repeat for lunch and Dinner. It's a lot more fun than it sounds, just grow close with your fellow SVS Staff.
When I attended NY WG Encampment two years ago, there was Encampment staff already assigned to the DFAC, who assisted regular staff. In addition, all flights and staff "volunteered" by turns at the DFAC to clean.
So basically I'm just doing what I get paid to do except for a week straight and all day. I have no complaints.
Thanks for the responses y'all!
Somewhat off topic . . .
I'm not a big fan of the kind of "cadet mess staff" that has been described here. I don't doubt that the necessary food service work has to be done (I worked in restaurants for years, not to mention my duties as an Army Food Service Officer), but I see little or no leadership training value for the folks working the steam tables or cleaning the pots at encampment. Again, I know it is necessary and worthy work that has to be done to support the encampment, but I would normally favor having some sort of rotating KP duty from the student flights, supervised by seniors or by some sort of Cadet Mess Officer who is learning to how to supervise line workers, make schedules, indirectly enforce portion control and cleanliness standards, etc.
Essentially by definition, any beds or resources used by "worker-bee" cadet mess staff could be used for additional encampment students. And it tends to reinforce unfortunate stereotypes about using cadets for what some seniors might think of as "menial labor" unworthy of their own time and attention.
I have commanded my fair share of encampments and certainly understand that sometimes operational necessities mean you have to do things that might seem a little unusual and where the training value may not be immediately apparent. But all things being equal, I would discourage cadet mess staff as a routine practice.
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 06:14:37 PM
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA. This year we have Cadre that were selected for the (DST), Senior Members with food preparation backgrounds, and a syllabus for these members. We'd be happy to contribute to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 with our thoughts on how to implement DST as a leadership training tool.
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 06:14:37 PM
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA. This year we have Cadre that were selected for the (DST), Senior Members with food preparation backgrounds, and a syllabus for these members. We'd be happy to contribute to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 with our thoughts on how to implement DST as a leadership training tool.
Is there any oversight from the local health department to prevent the addition of any delicious ptomaine sauce to the recipes?
Quote from: THRAWN on April 30, 2015, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 06:14:37 PM
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA. This year we have Cadre that were selected for the (DST), Senior Members with food preparation backgrounds, and a syllabus for these members. We'd be happy to contribute to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 with our thoughts on how to implement DST as a leadership training tool.
Is there any oversight from the local health department to prevent the addition of any delicious ptomaine sauce to the recipes?
There's oversight by Senior Members and both Cadre and Staff will be fully compliant with both Fort Pickett and Virginia food handling requirements.
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:49:33 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 30, 2015, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 06:14:37 PM
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA. This year we have Cadre that were selected for the (DST), Senior Members with food preparation backgrounds, and a syllabus for these members. We'd be happy to contribute to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 with our thoughts on how to implement DST as a leadership training tool.
Is there any oversight from the local health department to prevent the addition of any delicious ptomaine sauce to the recipes?
There's oversight by Senior Members and both Cadre and Staff will be fully compliant with both Fort Pickett and Virginia food handling requirements.
Are the SMs qualified/certified to provide that oversight? Have they undergone training to be made aware of the food handling requirements and laws and regulations related to them? Would hate to see you get gigged...
Quote from: THRAWN on April 30, 2015, 06:55:50 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:49:33 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 30, 2015, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 06:14:37 PM
Maybe I'll add that to our list of revisions to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide.)
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA. This year we have Cadre that were selected for the (DST), Senior Members with food preparation backgrounds, and a syllabus for these members. We'd be happy to contribute to the next edition of CAPP 52-24 with our thoughts on how to implement DST as a leadership training tool.
Is there any oversight from the local health department to prevent the addition of any delicious ptomaine sauce to the recipes?
There's oversight by Senior Members and both Cadre and Staff will be fully compliant with both Fort Pickett and Virginia food handling requirements.
Are the SMs qualified/certified to provide that oversight? Have they undergone training to be made aware of the food handling requirements and laws and regulations related to them? Would hate to see you get gigged...
Yes. Hence the "...fully compliant with both Fort Pickett and Virginia food handling requirements."
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA.
Hmmm. I am scheduled to visit some East Coast encampments this summer. Let me see if I can fit this in.
I am not against CAP running their own DFACs for encampment. Indeed, sometimes when dealing with Army installations in particular, that is the only feasible way to feed the troops. (Army training bases are usually set up to "sign out" dining halls to go along with barracks and admin facilities to transient units, like, say, CAP.)
In fact, CAWG has been doing exactly that for years. Their primary DFM is a former Spaatz cadet, supported by other seniors with professional food service backgrounds. It sounds similar to your situation.
My primary concern is whether cadets should be allowed to apply for and participate as "worker-bee" DFAC staff, for the reasons I described above (not leadership-oriented, uses beds that might otherwise be available for first-time students, reinforces "cadets as menial labor" stereotype, etc.)
I'd love to take a look at the syllabus ahead of any possible visit. Always willing to be educated and revise my views on this kind of stuff.
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on April 30, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Col Lee, please allow me to extend an invitation to visit our dining services team (DST) during VAWG Encampment 2015 (20-28 Jun) at Fort Pickett, VA.
Hmmm. I am scheduled to visit some East Coast encampments this summer. Let me see if I can fit this in.
I am not against CAP running their own DFACs for encampment. Indeed, sometimes when dealing with Army installations in particular, that is the only feasible way to feed the troops. (Army training bases are usually set up to "sign out" dining halls to go along with barracks and admin facilities to transient units, like, say, CAP.)
In fact, CAWG has been doing exactly that for years. Their primary DFM is a former Spaatz cadet, supported by other seniors with professional food service backgrounds. It sounds similar to your situation.
My primary concern is whether cadets should be allowed to apply for and participate as "worker-bee" DFAC staff, for the reasons I described above (not leadership-oriented, uses beds that might otherwise be available for first-time students, reinforces "cadets as menial labor" stereotype, etc.)
I'd love to take a look at the syllabus ahead of any possible visit. Always willing to be educated and revise my views on this kind of stuff.
So what's your view on "support staff" cadets who do similar roles, with arguably few "leadership" opportunities?
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on April 30, 2015, 09:53:48 PM
So what's your view on "support staff" cadets who do similar roles, with arguably few "leadership" opportunities?
According to our doctrine in CAPP 52-24 (Encampment Guide), there are only three "flavors" of cadets at encampment: students, advanced students, and cadre. Cadre can certainly include cadets in administrative support roles.
Additionally, the Mission of Encampment is described in paragraph 1.1(a):
Quote from: CAPP 52-24Mission. The purpose of the cadet encampment is for cadets to
develop leadership skills, investigate the aerospace sciences and related careers,
commit to a habit of regular exercise, and solidify their moral character.
So cadre positions (including administrative support roles) must receive leadership, aerospace, or character training while supporting the encampment in line or support roles.
I have absolutely no issues with, as just one example, a Cadet Logistics Officer who not only provides needed support to the encampment, but learns about property accountability, directing and supervising others charged with logistics responsibilities, projecting and managing needed goods and services, etc.
Or a Cadet Mess Officer that plans and implements the food service program; learns about ordering, maintaining, and preparing foodstuffs; training colleagues in hygiene and cleanliness procedures, learns how to effectively supervise and motivate subordinates engaged in low-skill jobs (KPs), staff coordination procedures, etc.
Or a Cadet Training Officer who plans and coordinates the required curricula, trains and qualifies the instructors, and provides needed remediation to cadets who need to retake a quiz.
Or Cadet Safety Officer who works closely with the Senior Staff counterpart and assists in designing and implementing a robust evidence-based safety program, evaluates on-going safety issues, and provides feedback to the command group during the encampment.
OTOH, I do have issues with cadets who do not receive significant leadership instruction while at encampment and who (for example) do
nothing but count sheets and blankets, mop the kitchen, or simply act as runners and gophers for other cadre or senior staff.
Often, wings use second-year cadets for these kinds of menial tasks, and in my view that is outside current doctrine. (Again, I fully understand that
someone has to count the sheets and mop the kitchen. I really do. I have done both of those important tasks as a senior staff member.) But cadre cadets are there primarily to be trained, not to be used as scut labor. And that is true even if they apply for and agree to perform these tasks.
And I have seen it all:
- Cadets who have no other responsibilities other than to take pictures for a yearbook,
- "Headquarters NCOs" (the above described blanket and canteen-counters)
- Cadet "Medical Staff" (who mostly carry around expensive aid kits and make up chants about hydration)
- Cadet Security or CQ positions (mostly to stay up all night to ensure "security")
- Aide-de-Camp to the Commander (primary responsibility being a runner & gopher)
You get the idea.
I don't question the good faith and high motivation of the cadets who have filled these positions, or even of the seniors that created them. Undoubtedly they have done a lot of good supporting their encampments.
But such positions are outside of current doctrine and should not be permitted.
Second year + cadets not serving on cadre should become advanced students and participate in separate advanced training with an eye to becoming cadre in the out years, or simply advanced leadership, character, or AE training not available at their home units.
All cadets must receive leadership, aerospace, or character training at encampment. Preferably all three, and a whole lot of it. Encampment is most decidedly not a weekly meeting writ large. It is a challenging, full-on, immersive experience designed to grow outstanding cadets.
It is one of the best things we do.
And cadets should be able to remember each of their encampments proudly, and look back at the training and experience they gained. And that just has to be more than counting blankets or mopping the kitchen.
[/list]
Quote from: Ned on April 30, 2015, 11:03:06 PM
All cadets must receive leadership, aerospace, or character training at encampment. Preferably all three, and a whole lot of it. Encampment is most decidedly not a weekly meeting writ large. It is a challenging, full-on, immersive experience designed to grow outstanding cadets.
First item of guidance I issued as Encampment Commander. All Cadets, including DST Cadre, will be immersed in a leadership training environment.
We used to choose KP/mess staff at random. Usually honor flight was exempt that day so the staff could change daily. And the screw ups were usually put on KP for the day, but this was back before we had a real stringent encampment program. The dark times....
A cadet officer once told me being the mess officer was the best encampment job he ever had... But he could make lemonaide out of lemons, so what can I say. I am not sure his swagger stick was authorized however..
Quote from: AirAux on May 02, 2015, 10:10:33 PM
A cadet officer once told me being the mess officer was the best encampment job he ever had... But he could make lemonaide out of lemons, so what can I say. I am not sure his swagger stick was authorized however..
You sure it wasn't a spatula? :D
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 04, 2015, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: AirAux on May 02, 2015, 10:10:33 PM
A cadet officer once told me being the mess officer was the best encampment job he ever had... But he could make lemonaide out of lemons, so what can I say. I am not sure his swagger stick was authorized however..
You sure it wasn't a spatula? :D
Fly swatter.... :o