I know this topic has been discussed at length in other places, but this really sheds new light on the discussion. Look at the whole thing, but especially p. 12, first bullet point. Do they honestly expect to have local governments ask the BSA over the CAP to do SAR?
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/images/4/46/Troop_Mobilization_-_BLANK.doc (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/images/4/46/Troop_Mobilization_-_BLANK.doc)
Thoughts?
Before? Maybe - depends on the situation - a lot of agencies call out for help from the general public during missing persons searches.
The document also indicates that CAP might be the agency requesting Boy Scout assistance.
Nothing here "really sheds new light on the discussion." The document you reference is almost 8 years old, the sample letter 11 years old and is a result of a FEMA-Scouting partnership. The SAR Merit badge has been around since 2012. Here is where we discussed it when it first came out: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15509.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15509.0)
Nowhere in the document does it tell or even suggest to call Scouts before CAP. As Eclipse points out, the document states that CAP might be the requesting agency.
There are far more Boy Scouts and troops than CAP ground SAR qualified members and squadrons. In some places there is no choice.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Mike
The law enforcement explorer post I belonged to in high school got called to assist with a missing person once, back in the early 1970's. We had no SAR training but the PD worked with us on other tasks such as directing traffic in front of church on Sunday's so they at least knew were dependable. Not sure what would happen nowadays but there are still LE posts around. Troops have generally a little younger age members.
Quote from: Afbrat52 on January 21, 2015, 11:22:21 PM
I know this topic has been discussed at length in other places, but this really sheds new light on the discussion. Look at the whole thing, but especially p. 12, first bullet point. Do they honestly expect to have local governments ask the BSA over the CAP to do SAR?
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/images/4/46/Troop_Mobilization_-_BLANK.doc (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/images/4/46/Troop_Mobilization_-_BLANK.doc)
Thoughts?
Short answer - no.
BSA merit badges are for information and learning. The idea is to expose boys to multiple different topics and see which ones they like. Requirement 8 (Do one of the following) a) is "Prepare a written plan for mobilizing your troop when needed to do emergency service. If there is already a plan, explain it. Tell your part in making it work." So what you're seeing is a scout's "homework" report on thinking about how they could mobilize their troop if needed during an emergency.
Since Emergency Preparedness is an alternate Eagle required badge, you should expect that this exercise had been done by many individual scouts.
I grew up in the Scouts and am an Eagle Scout. To be honest, getting signed off on Ground Team qualifications didn't really require additional training beyond learning to use an L-Per because the skills were already learned in the Scouts. Even Ranger skills taught are really basic skills for a Boy Scout.
It's my opinion that it's a grave mistake to believe that just because CAP specializes in SAR that organizations like the Boy Scouts are incapable of performing SAR taskings.
Other than that, I just wanted to show off my Eagle badge in a BSA-related topic. :)
Sir,
I agree with the sentiment that Boy Scouts do have potential. I'm a Boy Scout and proud of it. I just feel that proper training should be a requirement before doing things like SAR or Disaster Relief. I certainly would not want some of the members of my troop out in the middle of a crisis.
It depends on what they'd be tasked with. Doing a line search? Can't foul that up any worse than the volunteer fire departments that go out and trample a scene. Fill sandbags/direct traffic/assist in shelter management? Same arguement. CAP is far from the only outfit with a SAR role, and in some juristictions, it's not the preferred one. Again, depending on the tasking, the known capabilities, and the relationships with the OEMs, CAP might just hear about an action on the news.
Quote from: THRAWN on January 22, 2015, 04:35:37 PMCAP might just hear about an action on the news.
If we do, it won't be because BSA has volunteered to do SAR missions. They don't do that. They do a lot of camping, hiking and related activities. But they do them for the boy's enjoyment, not in service to their community.
Quote from: Afbrat52 on January 22, 2015, 04:27:31 PM
Sir,
I agree with the sentiment that Boy Scouts do have potential. I'm a Boy Scout and proud of it. I just feel that proper training should be a requirement before doing things like SAR or Disaster Relief. I certainly would not want some of the members of my troop out in the middle of a crisis.
Not only do the Scouts have potential, they've been doing it for almost 40 years longer than CAP. I agree with your statement about how we wouldn't want some members of a troop out in the middle of a crisis. The same statement can also be said about any given CAP squadron.
Would I want a Scout troop setting up food distribution points after a catastrophic hurricane like Katrina or Sandy? Absolutely. Would I want a group of Boy Scouts digging in the WTC pile after 9/11? Absolutely not. But then I wouldn't want any CAP cadets doing it either under any circumstances. Each organization has its place in a crisis or disaster.
Do be proud of being a Scout. I'm certainly proud of being an Eagle Scout. From your first post, it kinda set a tone of scoffing at the BSA and I was afraid this was going to turn into another 'How CAP is SO much better than the Boy Scouts' type of thread. As both a Scout and a Cadet, you're going to find many interchangeable skills that will serve you well across both organizations. A very important leadership and management lesson is understanding the capabilities of the resources you have at hand and putting them to use playing off of their strengths. When it comes to disaster relief, every organization from a church group all the way up to FEMA can play an important role as long as they're put into a role their suited for.
Ive been on countless SAR missions. Individuals and groups show up all the time to search. Anyone can show up and search for a lost hiker. Whether or not you are affiliated with any government public safety response is another story.
I know a particular person who touts being at the World Trade Center, Katrina and a host of other disasters as a SAR member in an attempt to market his training courses. Impressive? Well, until you learn he bought his own plane tickets and responded on his own and basically stood around.
In 2001, a little girl wandered away from her grandparents while on a family hike in west central Arkansas. Literally hundreds of volunteers, SAR professionals, LEO's, and inexperienced yet well intentioned people showed up to help. I was not involved but from what I heard from friends who went, it was a Charlie Foxtrot of epic proportions. No one knew the other's capabilities, and hundreds of people milling about the ICP created mass confusion. She was ultimately found by some horseback searchers miles away. I think there was a lesson in there somewhere for the local SAR community.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 22, 2015, 05:45:27 PM
Ive been on countless SAR missions. Individuals and groups show up all the time to search. Anyone can show up and search for a lost hiker. Whether or not you are affiliated with any government public safety response is another story.
I know a particular person who touts being at the World Trade Center, Katrina and a host of other disasters as a SAR member in an attempt to market his training courses. Impressive? Well, until you learn he bought his own plane tickets and responded on his own and basically stood around.
... or conned a newspaper into flying him to NYC in the corporate plane...
The SAR merit badge is very clear on this: Boy Scouts don't do SAR. The merit badge will educate them about how it works (and helps them to be a better search subject if it comes to that). It even suggests that they look into CAP if they want to do more.
As a BSA leader, I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where I'd want to use Scouts for SAR. Ages range from 10 to 18, with the bulk on the lower end ... you spend more time corralling them on a hike than you'd get useful work out of them. State OES wouldn't want them (unless there was a sudden need for knot tying or fire starting). SAR training isn't part of the program for the leaders. Could we help with a hasty search in a campground if a family's kid had wandered off? Yes, but that's about it.
The mobilization plan thing is a requirement of the Emergency Prep merit badge. It's been around for years. Think of it as a DR mobilization plan for assistance at a shelter at most.
Quote from: dbaran on January 25, 2015, 10:04:40 PM
The SAR merit badge is very clear on this: Boy Scouts don't do SAR. The merit badge will educate them about how it works (and helps them to be a better search subject if it comes to that). It even suggests that they look into CAP if they want to do more.
As a BSA leader, I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where I'd want to use Scouts for SAR. Ages range from 10 to 18, with the bulk on the lower end ... you spend more time corralling them on a hike than you'd get useful work out of them. State OES wouldn't want them (unless there was a sudden need for knot tying or fire starting). SAR training isn't part of the program for the leaders. Could we help with a hasty search in a campground if a family's kid had wandered off? Yes, but that's about it.
The mobilization plan thing is a requirement of the Emergency Prep merit badge. It's been around for years. Think of it as a DR mobilization plan for assistance at a shelter at most.
California OES has a minimum age of 16 to participate in any way on a mission. So that's about what, 75 - 80% of the Boy Scout population that can't be used... ::)
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 22, 2015, 03:27:31 PM
I grew up in the Scouts and am an Eagle Scout. To be honest, getting signed off on Ground Team qualifications didn't really require additional training beyond learning to use an L-Per because the skills were already learned in the Scouts. Even Ranger skills taught are really basic skills for a Boy Scout.
It's my opinion that it's a grave mistake to believe that just because CAP specializes in SAR that organizations like the Boy Scouts are incapable of performing SAR taskings.
Other than that, I just wanted to show off my Eagle badge in a BSA-related topic. :)
That is impressive. A belated congratulations to you :clap:
http://www.esar.org/. (http://www.esar.org/.) They were some of the best SAR providers in AR. Had ST1s and TLs that were not yet 18.
Quote from: dbaran on January 25, 2015, 10:04:40 PM
The SAR merit badge is very clear on this: Boy Scouts don't do SAR. The merit badge will educate them about how it works (and helps them to be a better search subject if it comes to that). It even suggests that they look into CAP if they want to do more.
As a BSA leader, I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where I'd want to use Scouts for SAR. Ages range from 10 to 18, with the bulk on the lower end ... you spend more time corralling them on a hike than you'd get useful work out of them. State OES wouldn't want them (unless there was a sudden need for knot tying or fire starting). SAR training isn't part of the program for the leaders. Could we help with a hasty search in a campground if a family's kid had wandered off? Yes, but that's about it.
The mobilization plan thing is a requirement of the Emergency Prep merit badge. It's been around for years. Think of it as a DR mobilization plan for assistance at a shelter at most.