We have a Senior member that recently joined that earned his Ranger tab in the Army. I've looked through 39-1 and the vague answer is that qualification badges earned in the military can be worn on the CAP BDU. My question really is placement.
Is he allowed to wear it on his shoulder where it is usually placed on an Army uniform, or is it placed somewhere else on the CAP uniform. Anyone have experience with this that can give concrete guidance?
The caveat is whether it is approved for wear by the USAF.
If not, then not in CAP, either.
I seem to recall they were in the latest AFI, however as CAP doesn't wear ABUs,
how those things translate probably needs NHQ input.
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf (http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf)
5.1.2.2. Badges. The total number of badges worn will not exceed four. The
commander's insignia does not count as one of the four badges. Badges will have a solid
background, and will have the edges folded and sewn down with no more than ΒΌ inch
space between embroidered emblem and badge edge. With the exception of tabs worn on
the crest of the upper sleeve (i.e. Army Ranger tab) badges will have squared edges.
Note: See paragraphs 10.1.1. and 10.5. for additional information.
10.1.1. A maximum of four earned embroidered badges and/or patches may be worn on
ABUs. A maximum of two badges are worn on the left side of the uniform front above the
U.S. AIR FORCE tape located above the left breast pocket. Wear only chaplain, aeronautical,
space, cyberspace, occupational, qualification and miscellaneous badges in this location. A
third embroidered badge or patch may be worn on the left breast pocket (such as the missile,
missile operations badges or security forces, fire protection or AFOSI shields, or the
Weapons Instructor Course Graduate Patch or USAF Test Pilot School Patch). If a fourth
badge/patch is worn, it may be worn on the right pocket (i.e. Weapons Instructor Course
Graduate Patch or USAF Test Pilot School Patch, attachment 5 list is not all inclusive) or
above the nametape (as appropriate). Wear regular size embroidered cloth badges, patches,
or specialty insignia on the ABU. If earned and awarded, tabs such as the Army Ranger tab
will be worn on the upper crest of the sleeve and may not interfere with wear of enlisted rank
insignia. Metal pin-on type qualification badges of other services are not authorized for wear
on the ABU.
But again, this is for the ABU.
Wonder how many folks will think he's just a graduate of Hawk Mt.??? >:D
Quote from: capmaj on January 07, 2015, 04:40:36 AM
Wonder how many folks will think he's just a graduate of Hawk Mt.??? >:D
It is fun. I had a cadet tell me I could not wear my Airborne Wings because CAP does not have a jump school.
Bingo. Thank you, Eclipse. I must have read right through that paragraph and missed it between adult beverages.
Oh, wait, you were quoting DoD regs....whoops.
Quote from: capmaj on January 07, 2015, 04:40:36 AM
Wonder how many folks will think he's just a graduate of Hawk Mt.??? >:D
We're kinda thinking that we'll be able to fast track him for one of the advanced CAP Ranger ratings.
I just looked in the 39-1 (again), and see nothing that remotely even hints that wear of a military Ranger tab is authorized. It's a tab, or more broadly, a patch. The only reference I saw related to military accoutrements being worn on our uniforms was for badges. The Ranger tab is not a badge.
Search strings used include: ranger, tab, military, patch.
Quote from: CAPM 39-110.1. Policy. Only those CAP badges and patches described in this chapter will be worn on the CAP uniform. A quick reference to authorized CAP badges and patches is available at Attachment 4.
Seems pretty specific.
I kneeeeeew this was going to come up soon. Since it's authorized now by the Air Force for wear on their uniforms, check with CAP NHQ for a specific interpretation.
If he wants to wear his jump wings on the CAP uniform, suggest the CAP blue and white kind that I think Vanguard has recently made available. I think matching badges make the uniform look better - especially if you're going to wear a CAP blue/white badge on top and something in the middle.
If he has another badge he'd like to wear, recommend one of these for custom blue/white military badges: 1800nametape.com (email them...their quality is good), https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/ (https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/) or http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html (http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html)
The color of military badges is going to become an issue (not tabs). I didn't see anything in 39-1 about it. You could end up with ABU badges only being available in ABU color. :-\
Quote from: SarDragon on January 07, 2015, 06:56:05 AM
I just looked in the 39-1 (again), and see nothing that remotely even hints that wear of a military Ranger tab is authorized. It's a tab, or more broadly, a patch. The only reference I saw related to military accoutrements being worn on our uniforms was for badges. The Ranger tab is not a badge.
Search strings used include: ranger, tab, military, patch.
Quote from: CAPM 39-110.1. Policy. Only those CAP badges and patches described in this chapter will be worn on the CAP uniform. A quick reference to authorized CAP badges and patches is available at Attachment 4.
Seems pretty specific.
The Air Force has tabs under the badges section in the AFI... hmmm... I'd say this requires a check-that-with-NHQ.
Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 08:03:41 AM
I kneeeeeew this was going to come up soon. Since it's authorized now by the Air Force for wear on their uniforms, check with CAP NHQ for a specific interpretation.
If he wants to wear his jump wings on the CAP uniform, suggest the CAP blue and white kind that I think Vanguard has recently made available. I think matching badges make the uniform look better - especially if you're going to wear a CAP blue/white badge on top and something in the middle.
If he has another badge he'd like to wear, recommend one of these for custom blue/white military badges: 1800nametape.com (email them...their quality is good), https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/ (https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/) or http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html (http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html)
The color of military badges is going to become an issue (not tabs). I didn't see anything in 39-1 about it. You could end up with ABU badges only being available in ABU color. :-\
Quote from: SarDragon on January 07, 2015, 06:56:05 AM
I just looked in the 39-1 (again), and see nothing that remotely even hints that wear of a military Ranger tab is authorized. It's a tab, or more broadly, a patch. The only reference I saw related to military accoutrements being worn on our uniforms was for badges. The Ranger tab is not a badge.
Search strings used include: ranger, tab, military, patch.
Quote from: CAPM 39-110.1. Policy. Only those CAP badges and patches described in this chapter will be worn on the CAP uniform. A quick reference to authorized CAP badges and patches is available at Attachment 4.
Seems pretty specific.
The Air Force has tabs under the badges section in the AFI... hmmm... I'd say this requires a check-that-with-NHQ.
From CAPR 39-1
10.8. Additional Badge Information
10.8.1. US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority are present in the member's CAP personnel record.
From AFI 36-2903
10.1.1. A maximum of four earned embroidered badges and/or patches may be worn on
ABUs. A maximum of two badges are worn on the left side of the uniform front above the
U.S. AIR FORCE tape located above the left breast pocket. Wear only chaplain, aeronautical,
space, cyberspace, occupational, qualification and miscellaneous badges in this location. A
third embroidered badge or patch may be worn on the left breast pocket (such as the missile,
missile operations badges or security forces, fire protection or AFOSI shields, or the
Weapons Instructor Course Graduate Patch or USAF Test Pilot School Patch). If a fourth
badge/patch is worn, it may be worn on the right pocket (i.e. Weapons Instructor Course
Graduate Patch or USAF Test Pilot School Patch, attachment 5 list is not all inclusive) or
above the nametape (as appropriate). Wear regular size embroidered cloth badges, patches,
or specialty insignia on the ABU. If earned and awarded, tabs such as the Army Ranger tab
will be worn on the upper crest of the sleeve and may not interfere with wear of enlisted rank
insignia. Metal pin-on type qualification badges of other services are not authorized for wear
on the ABU.
Would seem to me you could wear it on the blues, since we don't wear ABUs I'd check with NHQ on that one
Military awards are strictly forbidden on CAP specific uniforms so if the OP was speaking of the BBDUs I think you'd be out of luck
The Army, when in service uniforms, wears their Ranger Tab in the form of a small pin on their pocket flap under their ribbons. That wouldnt be bad for blues. Does the AF Regs mention that?
Okay, it would seem to me that the reference in 39-1 that wear of badges/tabs in accordance to AFI 36-2903 and an Army Ranger tab being specifically cited in Section 5.1.2.2 of AFI 36-2903 that Eclipse provided for me provides my answer. I'm going with it.
Thank you all for the help!
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 07, 2015, 02:46:01 PM
The Army, when in service uniforms, wears their Ranger Tab in the form of a small pin on their pocket flap under their ribbons. That wouldnt be bad for blues. Does the AF Regs mention that?
When I looked a couple weeks ago, I didn't see it, but I might have been searching for the wrong thing.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 07, 2015, 03:28:05 PM
Okay, it would seem to me that the reference in 39-1 that wear of badges/tabs in accordance to AFI 36-2903 and an Army Ranger tab being specifically cited in Section 5.1.2.2 of AFI 36-2903 that Eclipse provided for me provides my answer. I'm going with it.
Thank you all for the help!
Or better yet.....ping NHQ via Knowledge Base....that will get you an answer in less then a week that is in-fact NHQ's policy....and not just our interpretation of the regulation.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 07, 2015, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 07, 2015, 03:28:05 PM
Okay, it would seem to me that the reference in 39-1 that wear of badges/tabs in accordance to AFI 36-2903 and an Army Ranger tab being specifically cited in Section 5.1.2.2 of AFI 36-2903 that Eclipse provided for me provides my answer. I'm going with it.
Thank you all for the help!
Or better yet.....ping NHQ via Knowledge Base....that will get you an answer in less then a week that is in-fact NHQ's policy....and not just our interpretation of the regulation.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I have KB requests that are many months old and haven't been even looked at. Less than a week....that's a good one.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 07, 2015, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 07, 2015, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 07, 2015, 03:28:05 PM
Okay, it would seem to me that the reference in 39-1 that wear of badges/tabs in accordance to AFI 36-2903 and an Army Ranger tab being specifically cited in Section 5.1.2.2 of AFI 36-2903 that Eclipse provided for me provides my answer. I'm going with it.
Thank you all for the help!
Or better yet.....ping NHQ via Knowledge Base....that will get you an answer in less then a week that is in-fact NHQ's policy....and not just our interpretation of the regulation.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I have KB requests that are many months old and haven't been even looked at. Less than a week....that's a good one.
All of my KB requests have been handled in a timely manner. And I have done a lot of them.
Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 07, 2015, 02:46:01 PM
The Army, when in service uniforms, wears their Ranger Tab in the form of a small pin on their pocket flap under their ribbons. That wouldnt be bad for blues. Does the AF Regs mention that?
When I looked a couple weeks ago, I didn't see it, but I might have been searching for the wrong thing.
http://www.usma.edu/csm/SiteAssets/SitePages/Home/BYERS-ASU-8x10.jpg (http://www.usma.edu/csm/SiteAssets/SitePages/Home/BYERS-ASU-8x10.jpg)
Of course that doesn't mean thats how the AF will wear it.
I've seen it on the Army uniform, just not in the AFI. The number of things pinned to an Army uniform gives Air Force leader-types a stroke...
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 07, 2015, 02:46:01 PM
The Army, when in service uniforms, wears their Ranger Tab in the form of a small pin on their pocket flap under their ribbons. That wouldnt be bad for blues. Does the AF Regs mention that?
The sew on full color Tabs are still worn sewn-on the Army Green Class "A" Uniform but as it (Green's) is being phased out and not even being issued anymore to new Soldiers, it's only dinosaurs like myself that still have it and most of us that do... don't. You stand out in a sea of blue.
The only sew on Tab I've actually seen on the shoulder of the Blue Army Service Uniform (ASU) is the
Honor Guard Tab worn by the Old Guard.
Ranger,
Sapper, and
Special Forces Tabs are now all worn as pin on badges on the ASU.
I have yet to see a
President's 100 or a
Governor's 20 Tab on ASU but those are rare to begin with.
On the Army Combat Uniform (ACU) they are still worn as subdued cloth tabs on left arm pocket flap.
My question would be... how does the USAF wear the authorized Tabs on Dress and/or Service uniforms? Pin on badges or sew on full color Tabs? However they do it is how it should be worn on the CAP USAF-style uniform.
My educate guess for BDU's would be like Eclipse said... most likely it follows the ABU standard... but... as CAP doesn't wear ABU's... get guidance from higher.
Interesting stuff!
(http://media.dma.mil/2014/Feb/04/2000777965/-1/-1/0/140131-F-LX370-001.JPG)
(http://www.altus.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2014/04/140417-F-FV476-016.jpg)
Closest I found for Blues:
(http://www.106rqw.ang.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2013/12/131206-Z-SV144-159.JPG)
I don't want to derail this at all.... but I think its interesting that an AF LE would have the foundation to attend and Ranger School. I didn't attend, but I figured it would be pretty rough without a formal infantry foundation. In the Marines, the only guys who get Ranger school slots are Snipers and Force Recon types.
They are our "Infantry", though. We don't rely on other service's assets for base security or force protection, so they have to be able to provide all that on their own, with training from other services if need be. Not everyone gets to go, of course, but we can send folks.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an SP (don't try to pull this "Security Forces" or "SecFo" stuff), but I've worked with them, and augie'd.
CAPM 39-1 makes a very clear distinction between badges and patches. It also clearly specifies which of each are authorized. The Ranger tab isn't in either list.
As for the Ranger tab on USAF uniforms, the only discussion in the AFI relates to the ABU, which we don't wear. That leads me to believe that it is not currently authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.
I assume, if found to be all on the up and up, that you've prepared this person for the fact that they might get questions?
I used to get questions as a cadet on the Lifesaving because many people had never seen one and it's similar to a Spaatz ribbon (so some thought I was wearing that, and some thought it was shady that a cadet was wearing such a high ribbon). It got so ridiculous at one conference, that then-MDWG CC (Col Trick, who is awesome and was visiting us) intervened and told people to leave me alone.
For one thing, there might be some who see a new member and that raises and eyebrow. Then there will be those who think "this person is a CAP Ranger and decided to wear that..."
I have some real world experience with this issue so I can chime in what I do know.
The tab while now authorized on the ABU, was originally not, and on the BDU's, it was authorized for wear only while the member was currently slotted and assigned to an Army unit. Thus, the only people whom ever were authorized to wear the tab on the BDUs were TACP/ALOs and Combat Weather Team guys. So unless somehow a CAP member gets assigned to an Army unit, it is NOT authorized on the BDUs.
The pin on Ranger tab is authorized on the blues, along with Special Forces, and Sapper tabs. It is worn the same as any other badge, it can be worn above the ribbons (though seldom done), or centered on the pocket. (Not the pocket flap as we did in the Army).
Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
I assume, if found to be all on the up and up, that you've prepared this person for the fact that they might get questions?
I used to get questions as a cadet on the Lifesaving because many people had never seen one and it's similar to a Spaatz ribbon (so some thought I was wearing that, and some thought it was shady that a cadet was wearing such a high ribbon). It got so ridiculous at one conference, that then-MDWG CC (Col Trick, who is awesome and was visiting us) intervened and told people to leave me alone.
For one thing, there might be some who see a new member and that raises and eyebrow. Then there will be those who think "this person is a CAP Ranger and decided to wear that..."
I would find that very entertaining to watch, some CAP member going up and 'testing' a Ranger to see if he's legit. Knowing this guy, he would just smile and be prepared to make the the doubter feel about an inch tall. I live about 50 miles from Ft. Bragg. Back in the Midwest, if someone was claiming to be Rangers or Special Forces, I'd raise an eyebrows and wonder. Around here, there are plenty of the real thing walking around that usually you don't want to risk the embarrassment of questioning a legit SF.
But I also hear what you're saying. I get questions every now and then about my hurricane relief patch From Katrina I wear on the "anything goes" pocket of my BDUs. I was once questioned by someone who is very proud of his service for two weeks down on the Gulf Coast. He was polite and pleasant about the questions, but I knew what he was doing, basically throwing down a challenge coin. I was nice about it and talked about how I was working for FEMA at the time and would fly Sundowner and coastal patrols on my days off the six months I was down there. I think it satisfied his questions as he never brought it up again.
I don't think it'll be an issue at any rate.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 07, 2015, 09:50:46 PM
CAPM 39-1 makes a very clear distinction between badges and patches. It also clearly specifies which of each are authorized. The Ranger tab isn't in either list.
As for the Ranger tab on USAF uniforms, the only discussion in the AFI relates to the ABU, which we don't wear. That leads me to believe that it is not currently authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.
Okay, then why are we directed to AFI 36-2903 for wear of military badges and insignia when BDUs aren't mentioned anywhere in there?
Asking seriously, not trying to be a smart alec.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:53:44 AM
I would find that very entertaining to watch, some CAP member going up and 'testing' a Ranger to see if he's legit. Knowing this guy, he would just smile and be prepared to make the the doubter feel about an inch tall.
Testing? No. Require substantiation No problem.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:53:44 AM
the "anything goes" pocket of my BDUs.
The what now?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:53:44 AM
the "anything goes" pocket of my BDUs.
The what now?
The left pocket. The one where you would put a patch you received from a CAP event like MERSAR, NESA, etc. the 'anything goes', 'I love me', 'look what I did' pocket.
Not sure I understand what you mean by substantiation. You mean prove that he earned it?
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
The left pocket. The one where you would put a patch you received from a CAP event like MERSAR, NESA, etc. the 'anything goes', 'I love me', 'look what I did' pocket.
It's not "anything goes", there's a list and then you could have an approved supp for "other". You're wearing a FEMA patch there?
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
Not sure I understand what you mean by substantiation. You mean prove that he earned it?
Yes.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:01:13 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 07, 2015, 09:50:46 PM
CAPM 39-1 makes a very clear distinction between badges and patches. It also clearly specifies which of each are authorized. The Ranger tab isn't in either list.
As for the Ranger tab on USAF uniforms, the only discussion in the AFI relates to the ABU, which we don't wear. That leads me to believe that it is not currently authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.
Okay, then why are we directed to AFI 36-2903 for wear of military badges and insignia when BDUs aren't mentioned anywhere in there?
Asking seriously, not trying to be a smart alec.
Because there are also items that may be worn on the blues. The correlation between USAF and CAP versions of that uniform remains.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:53:44 AMI would find that very entertaining to watch, some CAP member going up and 'testing' a Ranger to see if he's legit. Knowing this guy, he would just smile and be prepared to make the the doubter feel about an inch tall.
I don't think it'll be an issue at any rate.
When I was in the Army National Guard (Infantry unit) we had a PV2 show up with a "Ranger" tab. He thought no one in the Guard would question him. Same guy also had a accidental discharge with his M-16 on full automatic, with blanks, inside of an APC. He was a career PV1. 8)
Not nearly as exciting as the E-8 in my Reserve Infantry unit who wore a SEAL Trident for several years before a buddy of mine called him out at a drill after he got tired of hearing his stories. Last I heard from him he was sobbing like a baby telling everyone how sorry he was with no stripes on his collar. Oh yeah... and the Jump Wings and the Ranger tab he wore were fake to. And yes, you read that right..... he was a Master Sgt. WAS.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 06:08:00 AM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
The left pocket. The one where you would put a patch you received from a CAP event like MERSAR, NESA, etc. the 'anything goes', 'I love me', 'look what I did' pocket.
It's not "anything goes", there's a list and then you could have an approved supp for "other". You're wearing a FEMA patch there?
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
Not sure I understand what you mean by substantiation. You mean prove that he earned it?
Yes.
No, I'm wearing a CAP patch there. If he has to prove that he earned it beyond sending in the required paperwork, isn't that being tested?
Quote from: SarDragon on January 08, 2015, 06:49:29 AM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:01:13 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 07, 2015, 09:50:46 PM
CAPM 39-1 makes a very clear distinction between badges and patches. It also clearly specifies which of each are authorized. The Ranger tab isn't in either list.
As for the Ranger tab on USAF uniforms, the only discussion in the AFI relates to the ABU, which we don't wear. That leads me to believe that it is not currently authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.
Okay, then why are we directed to AFI 36-2903 for wear of military badges and insignia when BDUs aren't mentioned anywhere in there?
Asking seriously, not trying to be a smart alec.
Because there are also items that may be worn on the blues. The correlation between USAF and CAP versions of that uniform remains.
But we're being referred to the AFI specifically regarding the BDUs
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:09:04 PMIf he has to prove that he earned it beyond sending in the required paperwork, isn't that being tested?
No one said "beyond", but he needs to substantiate it to his CC, and in that it is both unusual and something which
is subject to SV a >lot<, at least be prepared to respond respectfully and in good humor if people ask.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:10:25 PM
But we're being referred to the AFI specifically regarding the BDUs
Ergo...
Just a crazy out of left field thought....wear CAP stuff on your CAP uni, and Army/Navy/Air Force/MarineCorps/Coast Guard stuff on those unis.
Quote from: THRAWN on January 08, 2015, 03:16:43 PM
Just a crazy out of left field thought....wear CAP stuff on your CAP uni, and Army/Navy/Air Force/MarineCorps/Coast Guard stuff on those unis.
Blasphamy. How will the new guy feel if he doesn't have double the ribbons of guys who've been in CAP for 5+ years?
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 06:08:00 AM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
The left pocket. The one where you would put a patch you received from a CAP event like MERSAR, NESA, etc. the 'anything goes', 'I love me', 'look what I did' pocket.
It's not "anything goes", there's a list and then you could have an approved supp for "other". You're wearing a FEMA patch there?
No, I'm wearing a CAP patch there.
And there are any number of CAP patches which are not authorized to be worn on the uniform. Last time I checked, a Hurricane Katrina Relief Patch wasn't one of the authorized patches; unless of course NC WG has a supplement saying it's ok.
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 08, 2015, 02:23:49 AM
I have some real world experience with this issue so I can chime in what I do know.
The tab while now authorized on the ABU, was originally not, and on the BDU's, it was authorized for wear only while the member was currently slotted and assigned to an Army unit. Thus, the only people whom ever were authorized to wear the tab on the BDUs were TACP/ALOs and Combat Weather Team guys. So unless somehow a CAP member gets assigned to an Army unit, it is NOT authorized on the BDUs.
The pin on Ranger tab is authorized on the blues, along with Special Forces, and Sapper tabs. It is worn the same as any other badge, it can be worn above the ribbons (though seldom done), or centered on the pocket. (Not the pocket flap as we did in the Army).
Darn it... you beat me to it!
So, this thread starts with a question regarding the authorization and placement of a badge, and it's devolved into arguing semantics and reminders that the guy could be subject to stolen valor scrutinization. I know this is the nature of CAPTalk, but c'mon, guys.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:45:48 PM
So, this thread starts with a question regarding the authorization and placement of a badge, and it's devolved into arguing semantics and reminders that the guy could be subject to stolen valor scrutinization. I know this is the nature of CAPTalk, but c'mon, guys.
The same >exact< conversation if asked in person.
A new member wants to wear an unusual insignia, he is going to be asked to substantiate it, and not just once. He'll need to
deal with that, maybe even carry the letter of approval from NHQ or the relevent reg page in his pocket, because he'll be fine
at his home unit, but every larger-scale activity he participates in, where people don't' know him, there will be legitimate questions.
As to "semantics" - where, exactly?
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:45:48 PM
So, this thread starts with a question regarding the authorization and placement of a badge, and it's devolved into arguing semantics and reminders that the guy could be subject to stolen valor scrutinization. I know this is the nature of CAPTalk, but c'mon, guys.
I don't think its referring to stolen valor. The point GroundHawg made was that (unless its changed) you only wear the ranger tab in certain assignments. Has the AF changes it to where the tab is a permanent badge worn for the rest of your career? If not, then its a dead issue for a CAP member.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 08, 2015, 03:23:23 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on January 08, 2015, 03:16:43 PM
Just a crazy out of left field thought....wear CAP stuff on your CAP uni, and Army/Navy/Air Force/MarineCorps/Coast Guard stuff on those unis.
Blasphamy. How will the new guy feel if he doesn't have double the ribbons of guys who've been in CAP for 5+ years?
I know, I know....I'll report for the required lashes...
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:09:04 PMIf he has to prove that he earned it beyond sending in the required paperwork, isn't that being tested?
No one said "beyond", but he needs to substantiate it to his CC, and in that it is both unusual and something which
is subject to SVa >lot<, at least be prepared to respond respectfully and in good humor if people ask.
Yes, we DO seem to be talking stolen valor.
Tell you all what, I'll leave it up to you guys to scrutinize everyone who wears jump wings, military ribbons, etc. to make sure they actually are authorized to wear them by producing a copy of NHQ letters on demand. Me, I'm just going to assume they have integrity.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 08, 2015, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:45:48 PM
So, this thread starts with a question regarding the authorization and placement of a badge, and it's devolved into arguing semantics and reminders that the guy could be subject to stolen valor scrutinization. I know this is the nature of CAPTalk, but c'mon, guys.
I don't think its referring to stolen valor. The point GroundHawg made was that (unless its changed) you only wear the ranger tab in certain assignments. Has the AF changes it to where the tab is a permanent badge worn for the rest of your career? If not, then its a dead issue for a CAP member.
(http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/avlack/13c4338a76edb83a8a8896db377ee25e_zps1266160b.jpg)
It doesn't seem that this is referring to duty specific wear. It reads like permanent awarded and worn.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:09:04 PMIf he has to prove that he earned it beyond sending in the required paperwork, isn't that being tested?
No one said "beyond", but he needs to substantiate it to his CC, and in that it is both unusual and something which
is subject to SVa >lot<, at least be prepared to respond respectfully and in good humor if people ask.
Yes, we DO seem to be talking stolen valor.
Tell you all what, I'll leave it up to you guys to scrutinize everyone who wears jump wings, military ribbons, etc. to make sure they actually are authorized to wear them by producing a copy of NHQ letters on demand. Me, I'm just going to assume they have integrity.
I don't know that anyone really just confronts people. However, I know a number of full blown posers who ran around CAP for years sporting SEAL Tridents, Master Parachutist wings, Dive badge, EOD Badge, row upon row of ribbons they never earned, Purple Heart, USMC Warrant Officer. Naval Aviator Wings. Is it en epidemic? No.. Does it happen enough that someone may ask you about it? Yes. And those are just the ones Ive dealt with personally. And none of those came from me confronting anyone. Just wanting to talk shop with another vet. And strangely enough, they all wanted to work with cadets. I can cite 5 people Ive dealt with in CAP who were so full of BS after just a short conversation it was hard not to just laugh and look for the candid camera hidden in the bushes.
Whats that old saying? Trust, but Verify.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 08, 2015, 04:23:20 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 03:09:04 PMIf he has to prove that he earned it beyond sending in the required paperwork, isn't that being tested?
No one said "beyond", but he needs to substantiate it to his CC, and in that it is both unusual and something which
is subject to SVa >lot<, at least be prepared to respond respectfully and in good humor if people ask.
Yes, we DO seem to be talking stolen valor.
Tell you all what, I'll leave it up to you guys to scrutinize everyone who wears jump wings, military ribbons, etc. to make sure they actually are authorized to wear them by producing a copy of NHQ letters on demand. Me, I'm just going to assume they have integrity.
I don't know that anyone really just confronts people. However, I know a number of full blown posers who ran around CAP for years sporting SEAL Tridents, Master Parachutist wings, Dive badge, EOD Badge, row upon row of ribbons they never earned, Purple Heart, USMC Warrant Officer. Naval Aviator Wings. Is it en epidemic? No.. Does it happen enough that someone may ask you about it? Yes. And those are just the ones Ive dealt with personally. And none of those came from me confronting anyone. Just wanting to talk shop with another vet. And strangely enough, they all wanted to work with cadets. I can cite 5 people Ive dealt with in CAP who were so full of BS after just a short conversation it was hard not to just laugh and look for the candid camera hidden in the bushes.
Whats that old saying? Trust, but Verify.
Trut dat. Had a guy who claimed to be all kinds of SF, had more SAR quals than would fit on a 101, you know the type. When he finally coughed up a 214, and some certs, it was obvious that he was "wookin pa nub". It was clear that this guy never got a certificate from the "US Army School on Infintry" (no kidding, that was the spelling) at Fort Jackson (no joke...)...he was gone very soon after that....
I'm not denying it happens. But I usually wait until the spidey sense tells me something isn't quite right. Then I question. But the simple fact of someone wearing a tab or something doesn't spark that need to question.
I will concede the point that perhaps more scrutinization is warranted when the member in question wants to work with cadets. I certainly don't want to provide my cadets with anything less than a leader they can look up to.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:41:06 PM
I'm not denying it happens. But I usually wait until the spidey sense tells me something isn't quite right. Then I question. But the simple fact of someone wearing a tab or something doesn't spark that need to question.
I will concede the point that perhaps more scrutinization is warranted when the member in question wants to work with cadets. I certainly don't want to provide my cadets with anything less than a leader they can look up to.
The worst Ranger experience I ever had was a real one - a former officer even. Made life hell at encampment for his assigned flight (TAC officer), and not in the "high standards" kind of way.
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 08, 2015, 02:23:49 AM
I have some real world experience with this issue so I can chime in what I do know.
The tab while now authorized on the ABU, was originally not, and on the BDU's, it was authorized for wear only while the member was currently slotted and assigned to an Army unit. Thus, the only people whom ever were authorized to wear the tab on the BDUs were TACP/ALOs and Combat Weather Team guys. So unless somehow a CAP member gets assigned to an Army unit, it is NOT authorized on the BDUs.
I agree with you here. The only possible grey area would be for a dual-USAF/CAP member currently assigned to a TACP, Combat Weather, etc., who
would have been authorized to wear it on the
BDUs, were they still authorized for USAF wear (which they are not). And even then, that does not translate into "if someone were hypothetically authorized to wear a tab on their BDUs as
a USAF member (no provision for former Army to wear Ranger Tab in
USAF BDUs, unless authorized as
current TACP, etc.) that they can then wear the tab on their
CAP uniform. And, as you and others correctly point out, there is still
no connection between what USAF allows on USAF ABUs and what is allowed on CAP BDUs.
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 08, 2015, 02:23:49 AM
The pin on Ranger tab is authorized on the blues, along with Special Forces, and Sapper tabs. It is worn the same as any other badge, it can be worn above the ribbons (though seldom done), or centered on the pocket. (Not the pocket flap as we did in the Army).
However, they're only authorized if related to the airman's "current primary mission," per para 10.5, otherwise "[badges] not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform."
Having said all that... it looks like I can wear my combat patch on my BDUs then, right? >:D
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on January 08, 2015, 04:41:06 PM
I'm not denying it happens. But I usually wait until the spidey sense tells me something isn't quite right. Then I question. But the simple fact of someone wearing a tab or something doesn't spark that need to question.
Honestly, in my mind it does.
My personal experience is that the more excited a member is about displaying their plumage, the higher the poser needle starts moving, especially with new members.
Generally the more BTDT someone is, the less excited they are about a bunch of CAP members, or anyone else not in their "club" knowing about it.
It's one thing to blend in some military decs into your rack, few will know or care, but if you choose to wear a huge gold pin, or similar,
you're obviously looking for people to notice - "why" then becomes the question, when a Trident or a Sapper, or a tab, has zero relevance in CAP.
To quote my PD friend "If you choose to draw attention to yourself, you will get it."
Be glad we arent to Coast Guard where jump wings arent authorized. A Marine I knew went to CG OCS and was not happy that his gold wings were not authorized ;D Maybe they are now, I don't know. But in 1998 they weren't
Heck, Since I started on the Forum and showed my Signature, Im sure the first thing Eclipse, Flying Pig, and a few others did, was fact check my ribbon rack.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 08, 2015, 04:23:20 PM
I don't know that anyone really just confronts people. However, I know a number of full blown posers who ran around CAP for years sporting SEAL Tridents, Master Parachutist wings, Dive badge, EOD Badge, row upon row of ribbons they never earned, Purple Heart, USMC Warrant Officer.
As a SQ/CC, it was easy to verify those guys by asking for the documentation, DD-214, NGB-22, etc. If they produced it, great. If not, then told them to take it off. If it was someone outside my AOR, I usually went with my guy feeling. If it did not seem right, I would talk with their SQ/CC and see if they had produced the appropriate documentation. After that, I went about my day.
Quote from: Devil Doc on January 08, 2015, 06:56:45 PM
Heck, Since I started on the Forum and showed my Signature, Im sure the first thing Eclipse, Flying Pig, and a few others did, was fact check my ribbon rack.
I think you're right. If I remember correctly, I think you came into existence on CAPTalk just around the time there were a couple actual posers.
All this argument about grey areas....who has submitted the KB question?
Anyone?
Anyone?
By my interpretation of the regulations and AFI the ranger tab is authorized on the BDU's on the shoulder.
Quote from: LSThiker on January 08, 2015, 07:23:45 PM
If it was someone outside my AOR, I usually went with my guy feeling.
Me, too. I usually take my guy feelings to the nearest minor league ball park. 8)
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 08, 2015, 05:52:24 PM
Be glad we arent to Coast Guard where jump wings arent authorized. A Marine I knew went to CG OCS and was not happy that his gold wings were not authorized ;D Maybe they are now, I don't know. But in 1998 they weren't
The catch-22 now on other Services badges in the Coast Guard is they must be awarded while a USCG member.
SO... you
can wear Jump Wings, you just have go to Airborne School as a Coastie.
FYI, I know USCG Academy Cadets can go to Airborne School as part of their "summer training" opportunities
That recently changed as a result of the Coast Guard's Uniform Board 46.
M. PRIOR SERVICE INSIGINA: The Commandant approved a policy
change to allow the optional wear of up to one prior service
qualification insignia. Further guidance will be promulgated by a
separate ALCGPSC to implement this change and authorize wear of CG
mission related prior service insignia.
I take that to mean that the "while a member of the USCG" requirement is now removed.
Quote from: Ned on January 08, 2015, 08:17:57 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on January 08, 2015, 07:23:45 PM
If it was someone outside my AOR, I usually went with my guy feeling.
Me, too. I usually take my guy feelings to the nearest minor league ball park. 8)
Guy feeling. Gut feeling. Meh, what is the difference? :) But I could do minor league baseball.
Quote from: MHC5096 on January 08, 2015, 09:22:31 PM
That recently changed as a result of the Coast Guard's Uniform Board 46.
M. PRIOR SERVICE INSIGINA: The Commandant approved a policy
change to allow the optional wear of up to one prior service
qualification insignia. Further guidance will be promulgated by a
separate ALCGPSC to implement this change and authorize wear of CG
mission related prior service insignia.
I take that to mean that the "while a member of the USCG" requirement is now removed.
I knew it was proposed for the 46 Board, I didn't know it was approved.
Good to know. :)
It always seemed crazy to me that a Navy officer who earned an SWO qualification and later transferred to the Coast Guard couldn't wear his SWO pin, but a Coast Guard officer who earned it while participating in an officer exchange program with the Navy could.
Quote from: JC004 on January 08, 2015, 07:30:02 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on January 08, 2015, 06:56:45 PM
Heck, Since I started on the Forum and showed my Signature, Im sure the first thing Eclipse, Flying Pig, and a few others did, was fact check my ribbon rack.
I think you're right. If I remember correctly, I think you came into existence on CAPTalk just around the time there were a couple actual posers.
CAPTalk has had it's share of posers that's for sure. I don't know that Devil Doc really popped up since his stuff makes sense. Anyone who has been in the military can look at a set of ribbons and tell pretty quick if the story they tell adds up. It doesn't take a whole lot of experience to look at a stack an say "yeah..... thats a lie". Ribbons Out of order. Example.... Combat Action ribbon with no campaign medals. Purple Heart with no Combat Action (USMC / Navy). A guy who has a stack of USAF ribbons with a Navy good conduct and nothing else Navy related.... It's little things that don't add up. Usually with just a simple couple of questions you can usually confirm or relieve any suspicions. It's not rocket science and takes about zero effort. Around the same time Doc came on there was a dude who had a signature block that had USMC warrant officer rank, gold jump wings, a Purple Heart and some other stuff. But he was missing a good conduct, had a combat action ribbon but no campaign ribbons. I shot him a PM as a fellow Marine and asked his story and he said he'd gone to jump school in Hawaii. Then said his Purple Heart was from Desert Storm..... I asked where his good conduct medal was since with the Marines you have to be a SSgt with 12 yrs minimum before you can apply for WO. However he tells me he came in as a WO. See...... The lie just keeps getting bigger and bigger until you can't ignore it and quickly ends with "Hey... I don't answer to you so $#$^ off" . But you should probably take your real name and your Squadron our of your Sig block before you do that or your Group Commander may get an email >:D
Hey, I resemble that remark!
4 DOD Awards
6 Navy Awards
5 Air Force Awards
4 Coast Guard Awards
I always enjoyed dress blue uniform inspections in the Air Force with that stack.
Quote from: MHC5096 on January 09, 2015, 01:01:52 AM
Hey, I resemble that remark!
4 DOD Awards
6 Navy Awards
5 Air Force Awards
4 Coast Guard Awards
I always enjoyed dress blue uniform inspections in the Air Force with that stack.
Yeah but Im sure the story you tell when asked actually makes sense.
Quote from: MHC5096 on January 09, 2015, 01:01:52 AM
Hey, I resemble that remark!
4 DOD Awards
6 Navy Awards
5 Air Force Awards
4 Coast Guard Awards
I always enjoyed dress blue uniform inspections in the Air Force with that stack.
I ALWAYS had my 214 and ngb22 on me during inspections. 3 services, both active, guard, and reserve, with too many deployments, plus a few from the USCG from my Aux service... I was heavy stacked for a E6 and got some looks, not always in a good way. The over the top was the state awards, then I just looked ridiculous.
Then there are others who just don't see the need for the "see how awesome I am" uniform. Although I retired from the Army after 24 years I never even considered any Army Ribbons or Badges on the CAP Uniform. Frankly, I seldom considered a CAP Uniform and was content with the polo or the G/W (just wish they had standardized what shade of grey).
I get the impression too many CAP members are looking for ways to "junk up" their uniforms to resemble banana republic generals.
My Army ribbons, badges, patches, etc are all of a past life and reside peacefully in a display box on my office wall.
CAP stuff, well some is in a box in the basement, some in a desk drawer, and a lot never purchased.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on January 09, 2015, 02:36:02 PM
Then there are others who just don't see the need for the "see how awesome I am" uniform.
I can count the number of ribbons I actually possess...gimme a sec, carry the one, One.
I have my Alberta Centennial Medal, a foreign civilian award, not entitled to wear it on a CAP uniform.
People are proud of their decorations, others are but don't care to display them. Neither view trumps the other.
Used to wear my ribbons, gt badge, cp badge all the time on the G/Ws. Now I may bust them out for special occasions. Maybe.
Quote from: Nuke52 on January 08, 2015, 05:22:23 PM
However, they're only authorized if related to the airman's "current primary mission," per para 10.5, otherwise "[badges] not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform."
Having said all that... it looks like I can wear my combat patch on my BDUs then, right? >:D
I never noticed that line in 36-2903 and I guess nobody else has either since I have seen many in the Air Force wearing badges that were earned but are no longer their primary mission. That rule doesn't make sense but there are many rules and reg that don't make sense either.
Quote from: kwe1009 on January 09, 2015, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Nuke52 on January 08, 2015, 05:22:23 PM
However, they're only authorized if related to the airman's "current primary mission," per para 10.5, otherwise "[badges] not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform."
Having said all that... it looks like I can wear my combat patch on my BDUs then, right? >:D
I never noticed that line in 36-2903 and I guess nobody else has either since I have seen many in the Air Force wearing badges that were earned but are no longer their primary mission. That rule doesn't make sense but there are many rules and reg that don't make sense either.
That line only refers to "qualification badges," e.g., other services' badges. For instance, it makes sense for a current USAF JTAC to wear the Air Assault badge he earned while in the ARNG, but not for a current USAF finance officer to wear her old Navy Surface Warfare badge. (The 36-2903 has the wrong picture for the submariner dolphins, BTW, not to mention all the other typos. Great attention to detail, guys...)
AF members who've crosstrained, had a different job as a prior-enlisted, etc., can of course continue to wear their other, previously earned badges IAW 36-2903.