I want to attempt to pull the PD discussion away from the NCO thread. I think most people agree there are issues with PD, the main problem is with the voluntary nature of the organization, how do you motivate the membership to learn.
PD/PME is a requirement for promotion in the Military and within some civilian corporations. Some have indicated that the only purpose of PD in CAP is to advance. While I agree that PD is often viewed this way, I also think this is a very poor attitude. This attitude only serves to check boxes and does not encourage learning. Training should enhance ones self esteem within the organization. So that when your at Wing Conference standing among your peers, you are an equal stake holder in the conversation.
There are also requirements that seem extraneous. There is a thread on proving Conference attendance. While I think members should attend conference, I also think there are many excellent reasons why people cannot attend regularly. If that member is highly active in other areas, why should this hold them back. Isn't there a better way to encourage Conference attendance other than incorporating it into PD requirements?
PD needs to be validated to verify that the member has received some cursory bench mark from the PD course. Simply sitting through SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC, TLC isn't sufficient. The problem with testing for pass on these courses is the lack of consistency in instructors. But, perhaps an online pre-course like they have instituted for NSC, that has to be passed before you can take the instructor led portion. Eliminating the Instructor led portion IMHO would be counter productive. These session open senior members to other members of CAP and allow discussions in their experiences from units and activities they have attended.
Any thoughts on this?
I see several issues.
I know CAP means "Come And Pay," but for someone on a fixed income, as I am, attending some of the events can be cost-prohibitive. For those who live in regions where events are really spread-out in terms of distance, paying for transport (including sometimes an airline ticket; I have not heard of USAF airlift support in a long, long time - one of my commanders went to a National Conference in California and got flown aboard an ANG C-21, but that was back in the mid-1990s), lodging (if billeting on an AFB/AFRES/ANGB installation is not available; anyway most ANG and AFRES bases do not have on-base billeting) and other associated costs...unless a National/Region conference happens to be held within driving distance for me, it just is not going to happen. And honestly, I would really like to attend a National Conference, but I do not see it happening.
Others have mentioned proof of attendance. I know most conferences give proof-of-attendance certificates now, but it was not always so. One thing leading to my first departure from CAP was that I had attended a Region Conference (virtually driving all night to get there) and my Wing PDO would not accept my proof of attendance. Even a letter from the hosting Wing Commander on letterhead was not acceptable (I was told "he could be a personal friend of yours and you are calling in a favour"). There needs to be standardised proof-of-attendance procedures.
This may be restating the obvious, but Squadron and Wing PDO's need to know what they are doing! I have dealt with PDO's whom I have had to shepherd through the process of making sure the right forms were turned in, credited, etc., and I have never been a PDO. At least require a Technician rating for someone to be permitted to serve in that capacity.
Those who instruct (again restating the obvious) need to be experts on their subject matter. I have "instructed" at an Observer School and an SLS. In both cases the hosting unit (my unit hosted the Observer School) basically handed me a piece of paper from the syllabus with a few bullet points on it and said "read off that." In the Observer School case, it was quite embarrassing to lecture to a roomful of pilots on what the control surfaces of a C172 were. I got certificates for both, but I do not feel I really did anything.
This is probably impossible, since it is impossible for human beings to be totally objective, and no-one is without prejudices of some sort. Those who are in the position to promote/award need to stick to the published standards for such things and not let personal feelings colour the process. However, I have even written letters of recommendation for those whom I would not particularly care to socialise with, but whom I knew were qualified for what they needed. In many cases, not all, I am fortunate that I do have the detachment for such things.
Maybe this is too much to expect out of a volunteer organisation. I do not know.
PD value from Conferences is suspect, just as PD value from a non-prepared instructor at any course is suspect. At any given conference how many seminars pertain to you? An what value did you receive from the seminar. I'm not saying you shouldn't attend conference or conference seminars, I'm saying that there should be connection to PD requirements.
IMO impromptu hallway meetings with peers provide the greatest value at Conference.
Until you make PD mandatory in regards to staff positions and duties a member may want / need to perform, the
entirety of the conversation is extraneous, and extraneous things tend to be treated that way.
There is also zero vetting or expectations of instructors, which means in many cases the least informed
person in the room on a given subject is "teaching" actual SMEs on something they are clueless about
because they "need this for promotion".
If CAP ever wants PD to be taken seriously it needs a cadre of "professional" instructors just as any other organization
would have who are actual SMEs with relevent experience within CAP, and it needs to add the weight of
requirement to the classes and OJT training, etc.
CAP also needs better objective verification of the completion of the specialties. Right now there is nothing
except for a CC's mouse. Approval is entirely subjective - for every member held to answering the questions in
writing, documenting service and discussing the reading lists and duties, there's more then a few who get the
"Oh, you're a fireman? Click, ES Tech. Remind me next year to click Senior.." (etc.)
Quote from: catrulz on December 30, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
PD value from Conferences is suspect, just as PD value from a non-prepared instructor at any course is suspect. At any given conference how many seminars pertain to you? An what value did you receive from the seminar. I'm not saying you shouldn't attend conference or conference seminars, I'm saying that there should be connection to PD requirements.
IMO impromptu hallway meetings with peers provide the greatest value at Conference.
I agree the networking is generally of the most value.
Frankly conferences in general are suspect, be they CAP or business. There's too much background noise
in just getting people hots and cots so they can sit in the same room.
And in regards to the curriculum - in most cases the conference PICs are reaching just to have something to
talk about. This isn't 1975 where the nets are the only immediate news source and everyone wants to
hear about the new regs - there's nothing "new" in CAP that isn't on the web seconds after it's announced.
There's a reason why beyond CES there are few major product conferences any more and that the
tradeshow market in general is shrinking it's a part of a bygone era before the days of ubiquitous instantaneous
information (and this comes from someone who make a good % of his income form the tradeshow industry).
It'd be one thing if they were presented and attended on CAP's nickel, a nice benefit of membership to
get out and about with members you don't know, but it's a hard pill to spend a few hundred bucks
for a hotel in mid-state no where to eat rubber chicken and listen to people tell you about things
which haven't been news for 8 months.
This TIG http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19600.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19600.0) discussion really highlights how broken CAP PD really is. Like most things in CAP, the program
itself is fine, there's simply no expectation of doing it.
Two members of the same vintage, activity level, staff position, and even grade can stand in the same room,
one has done SLS/CLC/TLC/RSC/NSC and be doing the same jobs as one who has never done anything but
a weekly meeting. Both are considered "active" members.
I pointed out the same dichotomy with the uniforms. Two people in the same room, one in the golf shirt,
one in full service dress, both are "right".
You can't have an organization like CAP with this sort of disparity, press the significant administrative requirements,
and then not expect serious issues in expectations, performance, and the lack of both.
As we've said elsewhere, comparing the BSA to CAP is easy, but generally doesn't work, however it might
surprise many people here the level of training and certification required >before< you can be appointed
to various positions in a troop.
Every position requires specific training, generally a "you go there" day or weekend >before< you get the job,
even committee positions, which are a loose equivalent to squadron staff, have any number of pre-requisite classes
and online training before appointments can be made. They want me to be the STEM coordinator because I mentioned
I saw an airplane once, I have to take like 3 or 4 classes to be considered.
And they are serious about it, no cert, no job. And the Scouts have no planes or operational role (though they do have plenty of $$$).
Compare that to the average CAP unit CC who is chosen based on presence and can assume command as soon as
his Level I is complete, never to attend another class whatsoever, and who is somehow expected to manage and lead adults
in a life-saving role.
Quote from: catrulz on December 30, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
PD value from Conferences is suspect, just as PD value from a non-prepared instructor at any course is suspect. At any given conference how many seminars pertain to you? An what value did you receive from the seminar. I'm not saying you shouldn't attend conference or conference seminars, I'm saying that there should be connection to PD requirements.
IMO impromptu hallway meetings with peers provide the greatest value at Conference.
Concur. However, PD from a knowledgeable and prepared instructor is a good thing, no? Likewise, a solid, well-thought-out conference program can deliver real value. Earlier this year we did a Wing conference as a joint effort with Virginia Wing, NatCap and Middle East Region folks, and the program was really outstanding. A highlight for me: a briefing from the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, in which they described how the imagery we shoot from the air gets turned into intelligence and air-reconnaissance products during disasters and other contingencies. There was real nuts-and-bolts stuff about, for example, why it's important to fly precisely at 90 knots, and shoot precisely with a 45-degree angle...because we saw examples of how it gets used and why the details matter. That kind of rich conference programming can be done with PD as well, and if it were, it would be a benefit.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 06:29:29 PM
Frankly conferences in general are suspect, be they CAP or business. There's too much background noise in just getting people hots and cots so they can sit in the same room.
Fully agreed. I am no schmoozer and make no secret of it.
When I have gone to wing/region conferences I am selective about which seminars/training sessions I attend.
I was a Safety Officer for uncounted years; ergo, when I would go to a wing conference I would seek out anything to do with safety.
Quote from: ProdigalJim on December 31, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
Concur. However, PD from a knowledgeable and prepared instructor is a good thing, no? Likewise, a solid, well-thought-out conference program can deliver real value. Earlier this year we did a Wing conference as a joint effort with Virginia Wing, NatCap and Middle East Region folks, and the program was really outstanding.
That scale mirrors my experience - in your case it took 2 wings and region to pull off a decent conference, I've seen similar issues myself.
You really don't get much "new" until you get to at least a Region scope, otherwise it's just the mostly the same people you saw at the last SAREx or whatever
in a banquet hall.
Quote from: ProdigalJim on December 31, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
Quote from: catrulz on December 30, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
PD value from Conferences is suspect, just as PD value from a non-prepared instructor at any course is suspect. At any given conference how many seminars pertain to you? An what value did you receive from the seminar. I'm not saying you shouldn't attend conference or conference seminars, I'm saying that there should be connection to PD requirements.
IMO impromptu hallway meetings with peers provide the greatest value at Conference.
Concur. However, PD from a knowledgeable and prepared instructor is a good thing, no? Likewise, a solid, well-thought-out conference program can deliver real value. Earlier this year we did a Wing conference as a joint effort with Virginia Wing, NatCap and Middle East Region folks, and the program was really outstanding. A highlight for me: a briefing from the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, in which they described how the imagery we shoot from the air gets turned into intelligence and air-reconnaissance products during disasters and other contingencies. There was real nuts-and-bolts stuff about, for example, why it's important to fly precisely at 90 knots, and shoot precisely with a 45-degree angle...because we saw examples of how it gets used and why the details matter. That kind of rich conference programming can be done with PD as well, and if it were, it would be a benefit.
Instructor led courses are invaluable if quality control is applied to the instruction that is given. I have been very fortunate to have had excellent instructors at every CAP course I've attended. But I have taught at courses where some of my fellow instructors did zero prep, and it showed in the quality of their presentation.
If Eclipse is who I believe he is, then he was one of the instructors at my CLC course at Scott AFB back in 1999. I returned a couple of years later and instructed a CLC seminar for LtCol Gale at Scott AFB.
It's not the curriculum at issue, it is the instructors of the material. Some individuals just do not have a talent for speaking to groups. But our current PD requires people without this talent to injure training of new membership, by forcing them to instruct at a corporate course. I don't have to have a PD need to instruct, so I think you could staff corporate courses without making instruction a PD requirement. Require the member instead to give a Wing or Group Level briefing, which is demonstrating the same requirement without damaging the learning of newer members.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2014, 01:54:21 AM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on December 31, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
Concur. However, PD from a knowledgeable and prepared instructor is a good thing, no? Likewise, a solid, well-thought-out conference program can deliver real value. Earlier this year we did a Wing conference as a joint effort with Virginia Wing, NatCap and Middle East Region folks, and the program was really outstanding.
That scale mirrors my experience - in your case it took 2 wings and region to pull off a decent conference, I've seen similar issues myself.
You really don't get much "new" until you get to at least a Region scope, otherwise it's just the mostly the same people you saw at the last SAREx or whatever
in a banquet hall.
It is quite possible to receive credit for attending your two Conferences, without attending any of the break out sessions (seminars). Once again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement. Attendance should be encourage without it being considered part of the members learning.
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:25:43 PM
If Eclipse is who I believe he is, then he was one of the instructors at my CLC course at Scott AFB back in 1999.
Your personal journey of mystery must continue - I've never been a PD instructor at Scott.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2014, 03:38:48 PM
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:25:43 PM
If Eclipse is who I believe he is, then he was one of the instructors at my CLC course at Scott AFB back in 1999.
Your personal journey of mystery must continue - I've never been a PD instructor at Scott.
Not really trying to solve a mystery, just thought you might be that individual and we may have crossed paths. If not that's okay also.
You know, all the CG Aux really requires to be eligible for "command" positions is the completion of an online test relating to Aux administrative procedures. There are some opportunities for PD-like training in some specialties relating to running a flotilla, but they're very limited and only a tiny percentage of Auxies go to them. There are some online courses available for some others (public affairs, for example). There are some in-person courses available for various levels of leadership (flotilla commander course, etc), but although strongly encouraged, are not required.
I would say that despite having no PD system at all that the Aux is probably run at the same level of competency as CAP. That being the case, I'm less enthused about even having the CAP PD system, much less "fixing" it. I don't see that we've gained anything by it so far.
But, if we're going to play that game...
1. Revamp all the PD specialties so that they are equivalent in requirements put on those completing them.
2. Focus more on specific accomplishments being done rather than time spent in position.
3. Agree with Eclipse with making it a requirement that a certain PD level be required to hold certain positions BEFORE they can be put into them. Yeah, you're going to look around and say "hey, I don't have anyone with these qualifications", but thats the same thing we see in the Aux with that Admin procedures course. No one takes it until they're told that they're going to be elected to office, and what do you know, but they do it then.
4. After revamping the PD requirements -- in order to retain their PD level everyone must complete any new requirements that weren't there when they originally obtained it. If they don't do this, knock them back to the last level for which they've done everything. Adjust their rank accordingly. This would be a shock, but we basically do this in ES -- you have to re-perform the current requirements to maintain the qual no matter what they were when you got it.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2014, 10:42:16 PM
4. After revamping the PD requirements -- in order to retain their PD level everyone must complete any new requirements that weren't there when they originally obtained it. If they don't do this, knock them back to the last level for which they've done everything. Adjust their rank accordingly. This would be a shock, but we basically do this in ES -- you have to re-perform the current requirements to maintain the qual no matter what they were when you got it.
Except, there is not a requalification requirement for specialty tracks like there is for ES quals. If a task is added to an ES qual, completion is caught by the requal, not by dropping everyone who hasn't completed it by a certain date down a level. So, it's not like ES quals.
It's more like an ex post facto rule - yes, you did everything proper for the award when you earned it, but we just changed the rules, so if you don't meet the new rules, you lose your award even though you met the requirements when you earned it.
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:29:27 PMOnce again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement.
Without it, you probably wouldn't have anybody at the conference...
Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2014, 11:34:51 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2014, 10:42:16 PM
4. After revamping the PD requirements -- in order to retain their PD level everyone must complete any new requirements that weren't there when they originally obtained it. If they don't do this, knock them back to the last level for which they've done everything. Adjust their rank accordingly. This would be a shock, but we basically do this in ES -- you have to re-perform the current requirements to maintain the qual no matter what they were when you got it.
Except, there is not a requalification requirement for specialty tracks like there is for ES quals. If a task is added to an ES qual, completion is caught by the requal, not by dropping everyone who hasn't completed it by a certain date down a level. So, it's not like ES quals.
It's more like an ex post facto rule - yes, you did everything proper for the award when you earned it, but we just changed the rules, so if you don't meet the new rules, you lose your award even though you met the requirements when you earned it.
That's tricky, but a fair point and probably necessary.
We have a lot of "masters" of "x" who have no idea about WBP, WMIRS, ORMS, TLC, or whatever is new since they
earned it and the decade started with a 19.
Under a plan to require "x" level for "x" job, they'd have the box checked, but still be behind the curve.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to demote people, any more then we take away earned badges,
but a system that removed a user's "PD Quals" in the same way as we do with ES is a good idea.
Want to be Wing Director of Looking Out the Window (DLW)? You have to be have a Transparency Master
that shows as current. Don't have one? Requal or no job.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2014, 11:58:19 PM
What to be Wing Director of Looking Out the Window (DLW)?
Think I just found a reason to update my CAP resume...
Quote from: Fubar on December 31, 2014, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:29:27 PMOnce again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement.
Without it, you probably wouldn't have anybody at the conference...
And the whole world of CAP as Bubba knows it, is at Petticoat Junction Squadron and what Major Gomer and Captain Goober tells him. Some members really do not know about the other 58,000 +/- members. Knowledge is awesome and for some members the Knowledge Base and CAP Talk is the only way to get a straight answer to a question that Gomer or Goober is just guessing at. 8)
Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2014, 11:34:51 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2014, 10:42:16 PM
4. After revamping the PD requirements -- in order to retain their PD level everyone must complete any new requirements that weren't there when they originally obtained it. If they don't do this, knock them back to the last level for which they've done everything. Adjust their rank accordingly. This would be a shock, but we basically do this in ES -- you have to re-perform the current requirements to maintain the qual no matter what they were when you got it.
Except, there is not a requalification requirement for specialty tracks like there is for ES quals. If a task is added to an ES qual, completion is caught by the requal, not by dropping everyone who hasn't completed it by a certain date down a level. So, it's not like ES quals.
Correct, there is no requal required now. That is what I'm basically proposing.
Oh, when I was writing this I had something in there about giving them 2 years to meet the new requirements before losing the rating, but somehow erased it. That would have put it much like the ES situation.
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 01, 2015, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: Fubar on December 31, 2014, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:29:27 PMOnce again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement.
Without it, you probably wouldn't have anybody at the conference...
And the whole world of CAP as Bubba knows it, is at Petticoat Junction Squadron and what Major Gomer and Captain Goober tells him. Some members really do not know about the other 58,000 +/- members. Knowledge is awesome and for some members the Knowledge Base and CAP Talk is the only way to get a straight answer to a question that Gomer or Goober is just guessing at. 8)
There needs to be a better motivation for attending Conference than requiring it for PD. If you remove it as a requirement and no one attends, that is symptomatic of not making the membership feel like they value the conference. Aren't you fond of saying "don't waste my time." I have been to my share, and I'll be attending conferences in the future (I'm certainly not attending every year).
Personally, I don't believe CAP Talk is a good source for answers, its a great place for discussion. Answers come from the regulations, or senior staff officers, when there seems to be gray area, or the NHQ staff when the question doesn't get answered.
Quote from: catrulz on January 01, 2015, 04:33:17 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 01, 2015, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: Fubar on December 31, 2014, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:29:27 PMOnce again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement.
Without it, you probably wouldn't have anybody at the conference...
And the whole world of CAP as Bubba knows it, is at Petticoat Junction Squadron and what Major Gomer and Captain Goober tells him. Some members really do not know about the other 58,000 +/- members. Knowledge is awesome and for some members the Knowledge Base and CAP Talk is the only way to get a straight answer to a question that Gomer or Goober is just guessing at. 8)
There needs to be a better motivation for attending Conference than requiring it for PD. If you remove it as a requirement and no one attends, that is symptomatic of not making the membership feel like they value the conference. Aren't you fond of saying "don't waste my time." I have been to my share, and I'll be attending conferences in the future (I'm certainly not attending every year).
Personally, I don't believe CAP Talk is a good source for answers, its a great place for discussion. Answers come from the regulations, or senior staff officers, when there seems to be gray area, or the NHQ staff when the question doesn't get answered.
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: catrulz on January 01, 2015, 04:33:17 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 01, 2015, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: Fubar on December 31, 2014, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: catrulz on December 31, 2014, 03:29:27 PMOnce again, not sure why Conference attendance needs to be a PD requirement.
Without it, you probably wouldn't have anybody at the conference...
And the whole world of CAP as Bubba knows it, is at Petticoat Junction Squadron and what Major Gomer and Captain Goober tells him. Some members really do not know about the other 58,000 +/- members. Knowledge is awesome and for some members the Knowledge Base and CAP Talk is the only way to get a straight answer to a question that Gomer or Goober is just guessing at. 8)
There needs to be a better motivation for attending Conference than requiring it for PD. If you remove it as a requirement and no one attends, that is symptomatic of not making the membership feel like they value the conference. Aren't you fond of saying "don't waste my time." I have been to my share, and I'll be attending conferences in the future (I'm certainly not attending every year).
Personally, I don't believe CAP Talk is a good source for answers, its a great place for discussion. Answers come from the regulations, or senior staff officers, when there seems to be gray area, or the NHQ staff when the question doesn't get answered.
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
You sold me, where do I sign up!
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
I don't care that it's 1/1/2015, this is post of the year.
We do so many unnecessary things just to feed egos and justify the existence of higher echelons/the in-crowd.
I've seen incentives given to units for pushing out a quantity of nominations for wing-level awards. &#*$ quality, crank out quantity. Oh, and now all those nominees get invited to the ceremony. It pushes ticket sales and inflates audience size when the winner gets his or her award.
We tell people to jump through hoops to certify for aircrew positions, they do it in all good faith, and the same well-connected people get "the call" for the real deal. If you're not rotating opportunity to apply training on real-world missions, you're creating a paper cadre of aircrew to help justify the existence of the in-crowd.
Ever get one of those short-suspense "hey, we welcome everyone to apply for this position" notes and know immediately that no matter who applied, Captain X was the one who'd get it? If the decision is made, just appoint Captain X and save everyone else the trouble of even reading the solicitation for applications.
Ever get one of those "I need you to jump through these additional hoops that I haven't bothered to promulgate a written policy for because I know it wouldn't fly" notes? Mmm hmm.
Just be real. Respect people's time and money and contributions to the mission. Don't be a roadblock for the sake of being one. And by all that's holy, if you're going to hold forth on the importance of adhering to real and imagined CAP policy, don't squeeze your overweight carcass into an unauthorized set of CAP blues while you're doing it.
Oh. Happy new year, btw. Be safe and stuff. When's the group hug?
Quote from: DoubleSecret on January 01, 2015, 05:11:30 PM
Oh. Happy new year, btw. Be safe and stuff. When's the group hug?
At the next Wing Conference! >:D
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PMThen make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
This is the most fundamentally missed lesson of CAP.
People will line up around te block to shovel poop into the wind if they think it serves a purpose.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 01, 2015, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PMThen make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
This is the most fundamentally missed lesson of CAP.
People will line up around te block to shovel poop into the wind if they think it serves a purpose.
Amen Sir, I honestly believe this 100% accurate and the reason we are slightly above 58k and not above 60k. There is only so much people are willing to do when you waste their time. They eventually go somewhere else. Fundamental premise.
Do you think this will change and how can we help?
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
You seem to have enjoyed every wing conference I've seen you at. ;)
Quote from: SarDragon on January 02, 2015, 04:30:28 AM
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
You seem to have enjoyed every wing conference I've seen you at. ;)
Some people make their own fun......but we should not be advertising the conference as "Come party with Phall!" (not that I don't want to party with your). The conferences should be a no brainer....no sell week end. It should be offering things for everyone one, it should be reasonably priced, and it should be fun to go to.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 02, 2015, 05:20:09 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 02, 2015, 04:30:28 AM
Quote from: PHall on January 01, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
You want people to go to Wing Conference? Even if it wasn't "required"? Then make it useful and don't waste people's time and money.
You seem to have enjoyed every wing conference I've seen you at. ;)
Some people make their own fun......but we should not be advertising the conference as "Come party with Phall!" (not that I don't want to party with your). The conferences should be a no brainer....no sell week end. It should be offering things for everyone one, it should be reasonably priced, and it should be fun to go to.
I go to them mostly to do Cadet Programs stuff and to "network". But I haven't seen a class that would be useful to me in years. ::)
While I understand the whole point of a conference is to network, we are of the era where training is done live via the Internet.
In order to make conferences meaningful, make them really count for something like a real training requirement. Our conferences should really be held on a military base. That way, you can tie in things like base tours and visits to the BX. Make it really feel like you're part of something big.
Banquets could be held at the base club and/or dining hall.
A joint conference with another wing also just sounds so cool to me. At the '09 NSC, students used base facilities which really helped with the cost.
All too often these days, a conference is held at a distant resort center due to requirements set by NHQ, which drives the cost. And while there are all these great things to do at the resort center, nobody ever has time to do it, so it really is a very expensive waste of time -- especially when there are no vendors where things can be had at the last minute to make the trip worthwhile.
The last several wing conferences I've attended were at a resort center seven hours away. With my job, it meant leaving work Friday afternoon, traveling the seven hours and then getting to the conference site late when all of the first day activities have already been wrapped up and you have to check into your room with no idea what will happen the next day. Then it's two days of meetings and another seven hour drive home -- just no fun anymore, given that I'm a disabled veteran and the effect of those injuries caught up with me with a vengeance when I reached age 60.
We just held in October the Joint NER/CT Wing conference and I must say (though I confess to bias) that it was of value to those in attendance. ThIs is also the feedback I received from attendees.
^ Sorry, a whole bunch of those topics are the examples of the problem - most of it is either
stuff that should be handled at the unit-level, or has a very narrow focus of audience and
those people are likely already current on the topic (another problem with the conference mentality -
the people who need it aren't there and the people who are there don't need it).
The other issue is that it is hard to judge how effective the schedule is / was without seeing it.
I've been to a couple where no thought was given to competing tracks, so you had people
with legit interest who had to make a choice, resulting in empty rooms all over.
The average CAP member is not going to attend more than one Conference per year. I would also say, that most CAP members do not attend a Conference their first year in the program.
I always thought the Conference requirement in PD was to add time and inconvenience to the process. Our unit (here in Petticoat Junction >:D) encourage our membership to attend, to support their specialty area seminar (especially finance), and give support to members throughout the Wing that are being recognized.
I didn't go last year, but will probably go this year. But, I still contend it lends very little to a members training or quals.
Quote from: catrulz on January 02, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
The average CAP member is not going to attend more than one Conference per year. I would also say, that most CAP members do not attend a Conference their first year in the program.
I always thought the Conference requirement in PD was to add time and inconvenience to the process. Our unit (here in Petticoat Junction >:D ) encourage our membership to attend, to support their specialty area seminar (especially finance), and give support to members throughout the Wing that are being recognized.
I didn't go last year, but will probably go this year. But, I still contend it lends very little to a members training or quals.
Yea...I went to 1 as a cadet. Didn't count.
So I'll go to 2 more, for a shot at Major, and that's it.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2015, 05:50:14 PM
^ Sorry, a whole bunch of those topics are the examples of the problem - most of it is either
stuff that should be handled at the unit-level, or has a very narrow focus of audience and
those people are likely already current on the topic (another problem with the conference mentality -
the people who need it aren't there and the people who are there don't need it).
The other issue is that it is hard to judge how effective the schedule is / was without seeing it.
I've been to a couple where no thought was given to competing tracks, so you had people
with legit interest who had to make a choice, resulting in empty rooms all over.
Here is a link to the schedule
http://ctwg.cap.gov/uploads/3/0/6/6/3066786/final_seminar_schedule.jpg (http://ctwg.cap.gov/uploads/3/0/6/6/3066786/final_seminar_schedule.jpg)
I'm sure you are putting your money where your mouth is and are working with Kirk on the IL Conference
Quote from: flyboy53 on January 02, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
All too often these days, a conference is held at a distant resort center due to requirements set by NHQ, which drives the cost. And while there are all these great things to do at the resort center, nobody ever has time to do it, so it really is a very expensive waste of time -- especially when there are no vendors where things can be had at the last minute to make the trip worthwhile.
Now, I'm not one to carry water for the Echelons-above-Reality, including NHQ, but what are the "requirements set by NHQ" that require conferences to be at some resort?
Our last conference was at a university, and was a one-day affair (including conference and banquet). I've not seen anything that indicates NHQ is pushing some standard.
I've been on my fair share of conference planning committtees, and venue selection is a series of compromises concerning factors like capacity, cost, and access.
- Typically, you need a facility that has multiple classrooms / meetings rooms that are reasonably close together, an auditorium sufficiently large to hold everyone, and perhaps a banquet facility for an awards dinner.
- The location has to be within reasonable travel distance for a majority of the members. (Pity the planners for large wings like Florida, Texas, California, Hawaii, etc.) It will never be convenient for everyone, so some folks are always going to be unhappy. Sometimes very unhappy.
- Cost. Sure, big hotels can typically handle these kinds of small-to-medium conferences. They have the rooms and infrastructure to support the meeting. But they are businesses, and tend to charge "hotel prices" for pretty much everything. ("Oh, did you wnat wifi access in the meeting rooms, that will cost $$$$. BTW, you didn't mean high-speed wifi, did you, cuz that's extra.") Plus hotels typically want you to guarantee renting a minimum of X rooms at their special conference rate.
Military bases can certainly be cheaper than hotels, but are not free. Beyond the access issues discussed below, military facilities can (and do) bump a CAP conference with little or no notice for a higher priority military customer. That's a risk factor planners must consider.
- Access. Typically only a problem at military facilities. Member access is usually not a problem, but don't forget that non-member Aunt Sally who wants to watch Cadet Kelly receive the COY award will also need access, and maybe a room. Not to mention vendors.
Consider that some wings do not have suitable military facilities to start with. Now just weigh and balance the competing values and concerns, and make a recommendation to the boss who actually approves the venue.
Then listen patiently to the members who will correctly point out that the conference will be located several hundred miles from home, costs a heck of a lot of money for a room and meals, and that some / most / all of the classes and breakouts do not relate directly to their job at the squadron.
Then gleefully invite them to take your place and serve on the confence committee for next year. ;)
^^ +1
Sometimes all you can hope for is to make everyone EQUALLY un-happy...
Quote from: Ned on January 02, 2015, 08:23:42 PM
I've been on my fair share of conference planning committtees, and venue selection is a series of compromises concerning factors like capacity, cost, and access.
- Typically, you need a facility that has multiple classrooms / meetings rooms that are reasonably close together, an auditorium sufficiently large to hold everyone, and perhaps a banquet facility for an awards dinner.
- The location has to be within reasonable travel distance for a majority of the members. (Pity the planners for large wings like Florida, Texas, California, Hawaii, etc.) It will never be convenient for everyone, so some folks are always going to be unhappy. Sometimes very unhappy.
- Cost. Sure, big hotels can typically handle these kinds of small-to-medium conferences. They have the rooms and infrastructure to support the meeting. But they are businesses, and tend to charge "hotel prices" for pretty much everything. ("Oh, did you wnat wifi access in the meeting rooms, that will cost $$$$. BTW, you didn't mean high-speed wifi, did you, cuz that's extra.") Plus hotels typically want you to guarantee renting a minimum of X rooms at their special conference rate.
Military bases can certainly be cheaper than hotels, but are not free. Beyond the access issues discussed below, military facilities can (and do) bump a CAP conference with little or no notice for a higher priority military customer. That's a risk factor planners must consider.
- Access. Typically only a problem at military facilities. Member access is usually not a problem, but don't forget that non-member Aunt Sally who wants to watch Cadet Kelly receive the COY award will also need access, and maybe a room. Not to mention vendors.
Consider that some wings do not have suitable military facilities to start with. Now just weigh and balance the competing values and concerns, and make a recommendation to the boss who actually approves the venue.
Then listen patiently to the members who will correctly point out that the conference will be located several hundred miles from home, costs a heck of a lot of money for a room and meals, and that some / most / all of the classes and breakouts do not relate directly to their job at the squadron.
Then gleefully invite them to take your place and serve on the confence committee for next year. ;)
Yes but cost and access/location only affect conferences for PD effect in terms of members being able to attend. Hawaii was a great example with multiple islands, you would have to spend airfare of boat fare.
The pertinent issue is what training value can be assured from conference? And because of this, why is it a requirement for PD progression? It would be of greater value to place a varied training requirement in it's place. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating boycotting Conference. I still think members should attend when they reasonably can. PD should not be the motivator to fill seats. The value of the presentation should be the motivator to fill seats, support of those receiving recognition, and pure networking and social benefits, provide more than enough reason to attend.
We've turned this into why are people unhappy with conference thread, and that's not the discussion. Conference is fun, and valuable. It simply has little PD value, IMHO.
I agree with Ned, but it just goes to show that it's a pita requirement with dubious benefit in terms of PD.
Everything I was listening to in SLS I knew from being an Earhart cadet and being in my unit for a few months. TLC for a former cadet was a joke as well. OBC...a lot of wasted time clicking things online. UCC was great, and haven't had a chance to get to a CLC yet.
But at the same time, how do you judge who "knows it" and who "needs it"? You simply can't.
But conferences? There's no punch cards, or tracking of who was in what seminar. There's ample opportunity to spend the whole time in a room/bar/sight seeing, and getting credit (or in my cadet time, no credit, and not even my name on the list of attendees, even after submitting email proof, o-flight with two pilots who are on the list on the way back home, and email " vouching" from two bottle cap officers who drove me down there/supervised me).
Am I bitter? Maybe a little. Plenty of cadets on that list were able to use the attendance for their SM PD. Can I get to 2 more? Sure, but there's a cost to it. I have a life outside of CAP, a wife. She actually still likes to have me around, so if I go to weekend activity X, chances are I'll decline weekend activity Y that comes up a few weekends later.
+1
On the surface I agree that networking, seeing the rest of the world, and going to seminars is a good thing from a PD point of view.
However.....practically speaking......I can do most of that at a CLC or at one of my wing's bi-annual face-to-face staff meetings.
Likewise....you can go to to a conference...sign in and never leave your hotel room (or spend the entire time taking in the sights or visiting friends, or what ever)....but you still get credit.
Also....if we say that two conferences are important for Level III.....why not a Regional one (or two) for Level IV? Why not at least one national conference for Level V?
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 02, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
But conferences? There's no punch cards, or tracking of who was in what seminar. There's ample opportunity to spend the whole time in a room/bar/sight seeing, and getting credit (or in my cadet time, no credit, and not even my name on the list of attendees, even after submitting email proof, o-flight with two pilots who are on the list on the way back home, and email " vouching" from two bottle cap officers who drove me down there/supervised me).
This, I think, is a great injustice, because I know what it's like, as I stated in an earlier post.
I got the hosting WING COMMANDER to write a letter on WING STATIONERY stating that, yes, I attended the Region Conference hosted by his Wing, that I was on the roster, and my signature was on the sign-in sheet.
The PDO in my Wing still wouldn't accept that. All this person would accept was a "meal ticket" proving I had been to the BANQUET.
Neither my Wing or Squadron CC's would go to bat for me.
That was the primary reason I left CAP in 2001.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2015, 09:05:14 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 02, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
But conferences? There's no punch cards, or tracking of who was in what seminar. There's ample opportunity to spend the whole time in a room/bar/sight seeing, and getting credit (or in my cadet time, no credit, and not even my name on the list of attendees, even after submitting email proof, o-flight with two pilots who are on the list on the way back home, and email " vouching" from two bottle cap officers who drove me down there/supervised me).
This, I think, is a great injustice, because I know what it's like, as I stated in an earlier post.
I got the hosting WING COMMANDER to write a letter on WING STATIONERY stating that, yes, I attended the Region Conference hosted by his Wing, that I was on the roster, and my signature was on the sign-in sheet.
The PDO in my Wing still wouldn't accept that. All this person would accept was a "meal ticket" proving I had been to the BANQUET.
Neither my Wing or Squadron CC's would go to bat for me.
That was the primary reason I left CAP in 2001.
Which...in and of itself...why would I pay for another rubber chicken meal? Save the $30 bucks and go to a semi-non-fast-food restaurant.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2015, 09:05:14 PM
The PDO in my Wing still wouldn't accept that. All this person would accept was a "meal ticket" proving I had been to the BANQUET.
I'd have asked "Where does the regulation require me to go to the banquet?"
I'll answer with "Nowhere" Never been to a Wing Banquet. Been to 3 or 4 wing conferences, always as a presenter...can't stand formal banquets
I think we pretty much agree that
- Conferences should be professionally rewarding and worth the time and treasure for all the attendees. We should never waste a volunteer's time or money.
- Some / much of the value for some members comes from the informal networking that goes on between formal sessions. And, yes, perhaps even in the bar at the end of the day.
- Some instructors are better than others.
- Generally speaking, things offered at conferences should be better and / or different that what we could get at the local level.
That said, conference attendance performs a couple of PD functions. In addition to the obvious one of improving our CAP job skills in our specialities by attending classes or breakouts related to our specialties and taught by members more knowledgeable and experienced than we are, we also gain "non-speciality dependent" skills and increase our general CAP fluency by listening to the leadership outline vision, goals, and objectives. We get exposed to useful concepts and ideas from outside of our particular interests. A lot of that is hard to quantify, but still represents a significant reason to attend a conference every now and then.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 02, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
But conferences? There's no punch cards, or tracking of who was in what seminar. There's ample opportunity to spend the whole time in a room/bar/sight seeing, and getting credit.
Absolutely true. One can register for a conference, pick up your packet at the registration desk, and promptly retire to the nearest watering hole and watch a football game or two. PD requirement indisputably checked off, with no concomitant increase in CAP knowledge or abilities.
But this absolutely one of those "be careful what you ask for" things. In this day and age, it would not be very hard for the conference organizers to track specific class attendance and even assess your participation. Undoubtedly somewhere in the app store is something that could record whether you physically attended the session and then require you to take and pass some sort of assessment for each class before allowing you to get conference credit. This appears to be one of the rare instances when members are asking NHQ to impose additional record-keeping requirements. I'll note that and see what I can do. 8)
Or, we could have a little faith in our members to actually attend the things they have registered, paid for, and arrived at.
But we can certainly get smarter about recording conference attendance. That should be easy.
Quote from: Ned on January 02, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
Or, we could have a little faith in our members to actually attend the things they have registered, paid for, and arrived at.
If I had presented the evidence cited above for conference attendance, and had the Wing Director of PD say "Nope", I would have handed him a stack of CAPF 2Bs and said "You either accept the evidence, or you're questioning not only my, but these other folks, integrity, and if you truly believe we are lying, you should move to have our memberships terminated. Your call."
There are some very unhinged 'crats in CAP. Such actions question other member's integrity, and at the same time make a mockery of a second Core Value: Respect.
Quote from: Ned on January 02, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
That said, conference attendance performs a couple of PD functions. In addition to the obvious one of improving our CAP job skills in our specialities by attending classes or breakouts related to our specialties and taught by members more knowledgeable and experienced than we are, we also gain "non-speciality dependent" skills and increase our general CAP fluency by listening to the leadership outline vision, goals, and objectives. We get exposed to useful concepts and ideas from outside of our particular interests. A lot of that is hard to quantify, but still represents a significant reason to attend a conference every now and then.
This is my primary interest when attending conferences, aside from the networking. Most of the seminars I attend are outside my assigned squadron jobs, where I get a better understanding of "the rest of CAP" that I don't directly participate in.
Conferences, like the rest of CAP, are what you make them. I do agree that we probably shouldn't have to work as hard to gain benefit from conferences, but I've never gone away dissatisfied, myself.
Quote from: Ned on January 02, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
In addition to the obvious one of improving our CAP job skills in our specialities by attending classes or breakouts related to our specialties and taught by members more knowledgeable and experienced than we are, we also gain "non-speciality dependent" skills and increase our general CAP fluency by listening to the leadership outline vision, goals, and objectives. We get exposed to useful concepts and ideas from outside of our particular interests. A lot of that is hard to quantify, but still represents a significant reason to attend a conference every now and then.
Perhaps we should be requiring a bit more from the member in terms of the conference rather than just making them submit some proof that they attended.
All of the benefits above are going to be available most of the time, but are we making any effort to guide our members in regards to exactly what we expect them to get out of the conference? We tell them they need to show up in order to get promoted, but we don't really take the next step and turn it into a real learning experience by telling them what they should be getting out of it and making sure that they did.
Perhaps we should be asking them to submit some sort of essay outlining the major take-home messages that they got from the different aspects of the conference? Perhaps a paragraph on each seminar they attended?
The conferences are done in the same horse/cart way as many other CAP things.
CAP has conferences because it always did, and if it didn't it wouldn't.
Critical initial or recurrent training that cannot be presented elsewhere because of economies of scale or access to unique resources?
No.
Vendors who cannot showcase their wares or services because of the economies of scale or access to unique resources or personnel?
No.
As someone who works in the tradeshow and conference industry, those are really the only reasons to >have< a conference, especially
considering the cost and hassle of travel and lodging these days. That's the reason the industry is shrinking, because the Internet has negated
all but the "band camp" mentality shows - those industries that either need to >look< big, can't showcase their wares in any venue other then
a large show (or need to be in the room with the big boys to catch their toaster leavins), or those industries like pharma, finance, and heavy equipment
which are still wildly profitable and treat the shows as annual "thank yous" to their employees and clients, and in those cases, the employer
almost always pays all or most of the expenses (thankfully for me).
CAP is none of those.
So every year or two the Wing CC says "we must conference" - the planners stumble for 6-months to a year stretching for topics
and tangentially related vendors they can convince will make a few bucks selling chotskies and logowear to people who
already have a trunk of stuff they never use, or a blank space on their cubicle carpeting, and then the presenters (who almost always have to
pay for the privilege) spend a weekend repeating 6-month old information to people more informed then they are and
presenting "of-the-year-only one nominated" awards at the dinner which were primarily ginned-up for the conference itself and consist of a paper "shake and take".
The important stuff is happening at the units, SARexs, encampments, and weekend localized training.
What's left that's worth driving 3-5 hours, or flying across the country to stay in a conference center you wouldn't consider
booking for a vacation otherwise?
As cred, if it means anything, I've served on the staff or planning committee for at least 3 wing conferences and one region conference.
The most fun (honestly) was the one where the main POC quit in a typical CAP huff a few days before the event and I wound up voluntold
to help. It was actually a great conference AFAIWC, but only because we were so busy we never looked up to even notice the participants.
The most "fun" was the one where I dragged my whole CAP closet 4 hours away to give a uniform wear lecture to a room full of sharp-dressed
field-grade officers, while those who actually needed the information were in other classes that conflicted because no one
bothered to consider their class demos. "Oh, was your class at the same time as 'x'? Why did they do that? I really wanted to be there." ((*sigh*))
Like I said before....we need to clearly define what a "conference" is and why we expenct our members to attend two to be Level III.
Because we don't have a true definition. CAWG puts on a "cadet programs conference" every year.....does it count? NVWG has two face-to-face staff meetings every year that everyone is encourage to attend, they have break out seminars, we usually offer a TLC, SLS, UCC, or some such course, a commander's call, CAC meeting, and we have a big dinner on Saturday night. Exactly what we do for our annual wing conference. Does that count?
Since we don't have a good definition, we don't have a consistent standards of acceptance across the wings. We need a standardized way of logging attendance so we don't have any problems cross wing with proving if you attended.
Finally we need to get the ground truth if attendance as a cadet counts....and to fight that battle if need be.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2015, 05:19:03 AM
Like I said before....we need to clearly define what a "conference" is and why we expenct our members to attend two to be Level III.
Because we don't have a true definition. CAWG puts on a "cadet programs conference" every year.....does it count? NVWG has two face-to-face staff meetings every year that everyone is encourage to attend, they have break out seminars, we usually offer a TLC, SLS, UCC, or some such course, a commander's call, CAC meeting, and we have a big dinner on Saturday night. Exactly what we do for our annual wing conference. Does that count?
Since we don't have a good definition, we don't have a consistent standards of acceptance across the wings. We need a standardized way of logging attendance so we don't have any problems cross wing with proving if you attended.
Finally we need to get the ground truth if attendance as a cadet counts....and to fight that battle if need be.
The Cadet Programs Conference does not count for Senior Member PD. It's been requested, more then once, but no dice. ::)
As a current wing director of PD, here's my criteria for conference attendance:
Personnel authorization listing attendees at the conference. Merely paying the fee isn't sufficient proof; one must check into the conference. Alabama Wing generally does this; I'll be sure to contact the conference director and make sure I get a list just in case.
If you attended a wing conference outside your home wing or a regional or national conference, if a personnel authorization or list of conference attendees is not available, I will accept a registration receipt for the conference or a hotel room receipt. A letter or email from the wing commander/DPD is acceptable.
Word of mouth claims usually are a no-go for me unless I can get another attendee's verification stating the person did attend. Written verification is preferred but I trust the member's integrity.
Senior member attendance at a cadet programs conference should count, especially if it includes TLC training.
Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2015, 06:25:39 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2015, 05:19:03 AM
Like I said before....we need to clearly define what a "conference" is and why we expenct our members to attend two to be Level III.
Because we don't have a true definition. CAWG puts on a "cadet programs conference" every year.....does it count? NVWG has two face-to-face staff meetings every year that everyone is encourage to attend, they have break out seminars, we usually offer a TLC, SLS, UCC, or some such course, a commander's call, CAC meeting, and we have a big dinner on Saturday night. Exactly what we do for our annual wing conference. Does that count?
Since we don't have a good definition, we don't have a consistent standards of acceptance across the wings. We need a standardized way of logging attendance so we don't have any problems cross wing with proving if you attended.
Finally we need to get the ground truth if attendance as a cadet counts....and to fight that battle if need be.
The Cadet Programs Conference does not count for Senior Member PD. It's been requested, more then once, but no dice. ::)
But the AE conference does. Which brings me back to my original statement about "what is a conference".
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
Senior member attendance at a cadet programs conference should count, especially if it includes TLC training.
Why? I'll argue that if you spent the entire weekend attending TLC, you didn't do anything else at the conference.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 03, 2015, 02:42:52 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
Senior member attendance at a cadet programs conference should count, especially if it includes TLC training.
Why? I'll argue that if you spent the entire weekend attending TLC, you didn't do anything else at the conference.
If you spend the entire weekend drinking coffee in the lobby you didn't do anything else at the conference.....but that counts.
What about spending all the time at the hotel's restaurant bar? Does it also counts?
>:D
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on January 03, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
What about spending all the time at the hotel's restaurant bar? Does it also counts?
It sure does - counts for ending a lot of CAP careers. BTDT.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2015, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on January 03, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
What about spending all the time at the hotel's restaurant bar? Does it also counts?
It sure does - counts for ending a lot of CAP careers. BTDT.
I've also seen it enhance many CAP careers too. Some quality face time with the "right" people can work wonders.
Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2015, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on January 03, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
What about spending all the time at the hotel's restaurant bar? Does it also counts?
It sure does - counts for ending a lot of CAP careers. BTDT.
I've also seen it enhance many CAP careers too. Some quality face time with the "right" people can work wonders.
Fair enough, sadly there are a fair amount of CAP people who have faulty common sense filters.
It's an odd phenomenon that people who don't travel much seem to find it necessary to reach for "stupid"
the minute they are out of eye-shot of their spouse, etc.
The poorly supervised unescorted cadets with nothing to do are another issue.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2015, 07:17:53 PM
The poorly supervised unescorted cadets with nothing to do are another issue.
The exact reason CAWG has a seperate Cadet Programs Conference!
Quote from: catrulz on January 02, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
The average CAP member is not going to attend more than one Conference per year. I would also say, that most CAP members do not attend a Conference their first year in the program.
I always thought the Conference requirement in PD was to add time and inconvenience to the process. Our unit (here in Petticoat Junction >:D) encourage our membership to attend, to support their specialty area seminar (especially finance), and give support to members throughout the Wing that are being recognized.
I didn't go last year, but will probably go this year. But, I still contend it lends very little to a members training or quals.
catrulz and I will likely fly into the Conference from Petticoat Junction ;) since I missed it last year too. The new people in Finance, Logistics and Communications need to network. But after so many years it gets routine. At my age I really only go for the change of command ceremonies. 8)
Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2015, 09:53:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2015, 07:17:53 PM
The poorly supervised unescorted cadets with nothing to do are another issue.
The exact reason CAWG has a separate Cadet Programs Conference!
And the reason for the relatively new regulatory guidance in para 2-4e of CAPR 52-10 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_010_C5B73B2B78712.pdf) specifically designed for conference type events and provides minimum standards of practice for supervision of cadets at conferences.
We had a cadet conference at the CT/NER conference this year, they seemed to enjoy it
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 03, 2015, 10:27:16 PM
Quote from: catrulz on January 02, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
The average CAP member is not going to attend more than one Conference per year. I would also say, that most CAP members do not attend a Conference their first year in the program.
I always thought the Conference requirement in PD was to add time and inconvenience to the process. Our unit (here in Petticoat Junction >:D) encourage our membership to attend, to support their specialty area seminar (especially finance), and give support to members throughout the Wing that are being recognized.
I didn't go last year, but will probably go this year. But, I still contend it lends very little to a members training or quals.
catrulz and I will likely fly into the Conference from Petticoat Junction ;) since I missed it last year too. The new people in Finance, Logistics and Communications need to network. But after so many years it gets routine. At my age I really only go for the change of command ceremonies. 8)
I'm assuming change of command will be at a Commander's Call in March this year. Yes they traditionally occur at conferences. With the schedule being thrown off, I wonder if they will ever re-align CoC with conference? Even though I'm not currently a CC, I will probably attend this Commander's Call.
Quote from: catrulz on January 04, 2015, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 03, 2015, 10:27:16 PM
Quote from: catrulz on January 02, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
The average CAP member is not going to attend more than one Conference per year. I would also say, that most CAP members do not attend a Conference their first year in the program.
I always thought the Conference requirement in PD was to add time and inconvenience to the process. Our unit (here in Petticoat Junction >:D) encourage our membership to attend, to support their specialty area seminar (especially finance), and give support to members throughout the Wing that are being recognized.
I didn't go last year, but will probably go this year. But, I still contend it lends very little to a members training or quals.
catrulz and I will likely fly into the Conference from Petticoat Junction ;) since I missed it last year too. The new people in Finance, Logistics and Communications need to network. But after so many years it gets routine. At my age I really only go for the change of command ceremonies. 8)
I'm assuming change of command will be at a Commander's Call in March this year. Yes they traditionally occur at conferences. With the schedule being thrown off, I wonder if they will ever re-align CoC with conference? Even though I'm not currently a CC, I will probably attend this Commander's Call.
I like going to the CoC just to be supportive of the new Wing King/Queen. Also to preempt them from asking, "you want to be the Wing IG?" When a Commander rocks their Commander's Call you know you have a good year ahead. Of course if the Commander is burnt out it is very obvious in their Commanders Call. 8)
Quote from: JeffDG on January 02, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2015, 09:05:14 PM
The PDO in my Wing still wouldn't accept that. All this person would accept was a "meal ticket" proving I had been to the BANQUET.
I'd have asked "Where does the regulation require me to go to the banquet?"
I'll answer with "Nowhere" Never been to a Wing Banquet. Been to 3 or 4 wing conferences, always as a presenter...can't stand formal banquets
I have been to six wing conferences and one region conference. Only three times did I stay for the banquet; one year because that's where I got my Yeager presented, one year because I got my CommComm presented, and one year because the wonderful (and tolerant, patient, long-suffering and amazingly willing to overlook my many foibles and defects of character) lady who is now my wife and I had just got engaged and I requested the honour of her presence.
I tried bucking "the system"...however, the PDO was a Lt Col and I was a Captain...and neither my Squadron nor my Wing CC would intervene on my behalf. My squadron CC even said that this PDO "is not someone you want to get on the bad side of." He even suggested to wait until another region conference came around and "this time save your meal ticket."
I asked him if I could seek advice from National. He said yes, but he must not have thought I was really going to do it. National said that this situation was completely out of line and they would "look into it." Apparently they did, because my squadron CC phoned me and basically burned my ears off...he said I was going to be responsible for an Air Force IG investigation, and that from then on I should even stay away from Wing HQ.
I submitted my resignation the next day, amidst much grief, and, I will admit, tears. Eight years of service to CAP, for nothing because a PDO was able and permitted to make their own rules.
I don't know if the AF IG investigation ever happened or not. I did contact National and they suggested I either go on Patron status, look for a unit in another Wing (closest one was 150 miles away) or just "lay low for a while." Bull[mess] to all that.