Well my friends it was an exciting day. On the eve of my 47th birthday I had a most interesting day at work. About 1 pm, I returned from lunch with my sister and walked by the boss's office on the way to mine. He asked me if I wanted to see the "ball" they found in the back part of the facility. I go into his office and this ball that he was referring to is a Civil War Era Cannon Ball. He is on his computer looking this thing up and asks me to get a tape measure. I measure the Cannon Ball and found it to be 4 ½ inch. What he read to me next was scary. This type of cannon ball has been found in several areas and that many of the collectors have been KILLED because they exploded in their houses or while they were holding them. He decided we needed to get the thing out of the building but did not want to just "pick it up". We went outside to find a bucket to put it in. I found a 5 gallon bucket while he was reading the history of the prior discoveries. When I came back he said this type of cannon ball had exploded several times and killed some avid collectors and treasure hunters. I took the cannon ball from the desk and placed it inside the bucket.
At this point we decided we needed to get this thing out of the building and call someone. We did not want to create a bomb scare or media event and thought of ways to keep that from happening. We are a large chemical facility and it could cause a lot of panic. I called one of my former colleagues at the sheriff's department and asked for some guidance and a phone number. He patched me through to the Police Department Communications Center where I advised the dispatcher of what we had and what we understood about the history. They decided they were going to send out a Bomb Squad. I asked if they could send an unmarked unit so we would not create a city wide panic. They decided to send a Bomb Sniffing Dog. We were going to have to wait for a while so they could locate the team and send them to us without going over their Communications System. This was done to keep the media from picking up the broadcast and coming to the facility.
While we were waiting the facility owner and myself felt we needed to make sure people stayed away from the bucket and the potential harm it could cause. We were going to initially keep the bucket locked in the building and have the people leave. I told him I didn't like the idea of this thing being inside the building and that I was going to move it somewhere away from us and others. Before he could disagree I picked the bucket up and went through the building to the front of the facility. My heart was pounding like crazy and all I could think about was dropping this thing and it blowing up. I took it outside and place it under a tree. The boss and I cleared the area of people and waited for the Police to arrive.
He went inside to make some phone calls and I stood "guard" around the ball to keep people away for at least 50 feet for about an hour. I even had to stop the landscaping people from doing their work and ask them to wait for a while to do it. I have never been so scared and nervous at the same time. I was thinking worse case scenarios the entire time. It took the city a little while to get the team together and send to us. When they arrived the dog sniffed around the item. The officer inspected the cannon ball and said the only way to truly know would be to x-ray the ball. We told them they could take it and do what they needed. The police officer decided it would be best to take it to their area and detonate the cannon ball to make sure it would not pose any harm.
Though I acted pretty tame during the whole event I was petrified and scared. How many times does one person find a Cannon Ball that could explode?
Can I now add it to the resume??? ;D ;D ;D
When the officer brought a copy of the report by my office I asked what happened to the Cannon Ball, he said they did a controlled detonation and disposed of it.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Just so I'm clear....you identify an object which you know has the tendency to explode. Instead of leaving the area and notifying the bomb squad, you pick it up, put it in a bucket, and handle it some more? On the upside, you did use paper towels to give it some cushion....Lucky isn't the word I would use to describe the situation.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
The former National Safety Officer
:)
Yeah, I think I would have just left it alone and evacuated the area. No reason to handle a potentially explosive device any more than necessary.
Reminded me of when I worked as an orderly at the Emergency Department at a Puerto Rico hospital. I was about 24 years old at the time.
I get a request to move a patient from the ER to ICU. We had to move the gurney with the patient and load a 500 lb oxygen tank. I pick one of them, turn it on a little bit to make sure it was full, shut it down to put the O regulator into it. When I placed the regulator a screw in the tank came loose so the tank started passing oxygen. Twisting the on-off valve did nothing. Moving the regulator... well the problem was not the regulator. At the time I did not know it was the screw, I learned it later.
So finally I ran out with the stupid tank without knowing what was causing the problem to a grassy area by the parking lot. Told the security guard not to let any person around. Not knowing if it was being caused by a cracked connection or some other cracks, whether it could explode I put one foot on the body of the tank and opened it slowly. And waited until it emptied. Remember it was full, 500 lb take a loooong time to get out...
Bad thing, I could not get any maintenance or other help, as it was like 0300. But good thing it was so there were not many other public, just those with patients in the ER.
Not the first time with a pressure canister.
When I was about 16 years old I decide to set some plastic models of ships in fire. I started adding stuff. A D battery. Then a CO2 cartridge from a seltzer bottle I assumed was empty. Then I think that was not the brightest idea, combining those two in a little fire. So I decide to put the fire out, pouring water on it. I think a little more, and conclude that a large stream of cold water on a hot CO2 cartridge could make the cartridge go BOOM quicker. Instead I throw drops of water from a hand-held garden hose about one or one and a half feet up. Either the battery but more probably the CO2 canister goes Ka-BOOM! Two neighbors, from the back and side houses came out. I never found the canister or the battery, nothing happened to me. Except a scolding from my parents... Could have lost fingers, a hand, or an eye...
Life > Property. 100% of the time.
Interesting find though. Thanks for sharing. You never think a war relic from a century and a half will still be deadly. I can see how people could get hurt not realizing the danger.
So you actually found a real "bomb" and from then on the majority of your decisions were based on appearances and trying to keep it quiet that you were walking around with a cannon ball in a bucket? Your post will have every EOD tech in the world shaking their heads. I don't discredit you taking action, but you took the wrong action and got lucky. Your decisions were based on public relations concerns not safety.
You obviously posted this for feedback, so their ya go. About the only thing that would make this story better is if the K9 would have knocked the bucket over!
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 03:52:41 PM
So you actually found a real "bomb" and from then on the majority of your decisions were based on appearances and trying to keep it quiet that you were walking around with a cannon ball in a bucket? Your post will have every EOD tech in the world shaking their heads. I don't discredit you taking action, but you took the wrong action and got lucky. Your decisions were based on public relations concerns not safety.
You obviously posted this for feedback, so their ya go. About the only thing that would make this story better is if the K9 would have knocked the bucket over!
Disagree: Removing it from active chemical area was primary concern. Didn't want to create scare after that. But everyone entitled to their opinion.
Quote from: capmando on November 21, 2014, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 03:52:41 PM
So you actually found a real "bomb" and from then on the majority of your decisions were based on appearances and trying to keep it quiet that you were walking around with a cannon ball in a bucket? Your post will have every EOD tech in the world shaking their heads. I don't discredit you taking action, but you took the wrong action and got lucky. Your decisions were based on public relations concerns not safety.
You obviously posted this for feedback, so their ya go. About the only thing that would make this story better is if the K9 would have knocked the bucket over!
Disagree: Removing it from active chemical area was primary concern. Didn't want to create scare after that. But everyone entitled to their opinion.
Since you had already determined that this type of explosive had already killed others I'm not sure why you thought it was safe to move? I understand being concerned about the chemical area but moving an explosive by untrained people is only asking for an explosion. The primary concern should always be the safety of human beings period. No professional bomb tech, LE, EMS, etc would agree with your approach. I am glad that nothing happened.
So Notify the Bomb Squad this will take Hours Upon Hours to come? Or be Cautious and remove the "Cannon Ball" from the situaton. I would have moved it myself.
Waiting for EOD, is Atrocious.
It sounds like the OP assessed the risk to himself against the possible risks to many should this explode in proximity to the chemicals on hand.
He must have decided the risk to many was greater and used as much care as possible to mitigate that risk and that to himself.
Sounds like that ORM stuff we all get taught, to me.
Quote from: capmando on November 21, 2014, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 03:52:41 PM
So you actually found a real "bomb" and from then on the majority of your decisions were based on appearances and trying to keep it quiet that you were walking around with a cannon ball in a bucket? Your post will have every EOD tech in the world shaking their heads. I don't discredit you taking action, but you took the wrong action and got lucky. Your decisions were based on public relations concerns not safety.
You obviously posted this for feedback, so their ya go. About the only thing that would make this story better is if the K9 would have knocked the bucket over!
Disagree: Removing it from active chemical area was primary concern. Didn't want to create scare after that. But everyone entitled to their opinion.
My response wasn't an opinion.
Let me clarify. What you did took guts. Provided what you stated is true, I'd hope to see you getting a MoV at the next wing conference. However, next time someone drops a bomb on your desk, evacuate the building, not the bomb. :)
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: capmando on November 21, 2014, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 03:52:41 PM
So you actually found a real "bomb" and from then on the majority of your decisions were based on appearances and trying to keep it quiet that you were walking around with a cannon ball in a bucket? Your post will have every EOD tech in the world shaking their heads. I don't discredit you taking action, but you took the wrong action and got lucky. Your decisions were based on public relations concerns not safety.
You obviously posted this for feedback, so their ya go. About the only thing that would make this story better is if the K9 would have knocked the bucket over!
Disagree: Removing it from active chemical area was primary concern. Didn't want to create scare after that. But everyone entitled to their opinion.
My response wasn't an opinion.
Thanks for the feedback.
Of course when you get your medal your CAPtalk cover will be blown forever like an outed CIA officer. You can never go back to the life you once had.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 06:56:54 PM
Of course when you get your medal your CAPtalk cover will be blown forever like an outed CIA officer. You can never go back to the life you once had.
He already has a SMoV.
Jack
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 06:56:54 PM
Of course when you get your medal your CAPtalk cover will be blown forever like an outed CIA officer. You can never go back to the life you once had.
I have no clandestine cover. I just don't have a sig right now. But it is Shaw, Jim Shaw....002. My sig was caphistorian but I am no longer a CAP Historian and removed such. Maybe I should put it back?????
If it hadn't detonated in 150 years it most likely wouldn't if left alone until the Bomb Squad showed up. By putting the shell into a bucket you added an additional level of shrapnel for the potential explosion. The Bomb Squad is also outfitted in explosive -resistant clothing, you had maybe 1/2 inch of cotten to absorb the blast. clear the building and let the professionals do their job.
Did the cannonball have a fuse or fuse hole/port? My understanding of ordnance from that era is that the exploding shells had a fuse port/hole. The fuse was ignited by the firing of the cannon. Without a fuse port/hole, i.e. a solid cannonball, the cannonball should have been inert.
Old ordnance can be deadly the USS San Diego/California (ACR-6) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_California_(ACR-6)#Wreck) is a popular dive spot. Every so often, divers remove some of her ordnance as souvenirs and some of it explodes, killing them.
Msg-
Earlier he stated it had been removed from the ground by another person, not by him. He just removed it from that person's office, and the building.
I am pretty sure he would have left it in the ground, knowing what he knew about the history.
I am quoting from his original post:
Quote
Well my friends it was an exciting day. On the eve of my 47th birthday I had a most interesting day at work. About 1 pm, I returned from lunch with my sister and walked by the boss's office on the way to mine. He asked me if I wanted to see the "ball" they found in the back part of the facility. I go into his office and this ball that he was referring to is a Civil War Era Cannon Ball...
RRLE-
You are right, shells which would be what the exploding ball was called had a fuse hole. Shot balls did not.
But to make sure, would you not call an expert, the Bomb Disposal guys?
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on November 21, 2014, 09:37:21 PM
Msg-
Earlier he stated it had been removed from the ground by another person, not by him. He just removed it from that person's office, and the building.
I am pretty sure he would have left it in the ground, knowing what he knew about the history.
I am quoting from his original post:
Quote
Well my friends it was an exciting day. On the eve of my 47th birthday I had a most interesting day at work. About 1 pm, I returned from lunch with my sister and walked by the boss's office on the way to mine. He asked me if I wanted to see the "ball" they found in the back part of the facility. I go into his office and this ball that he was referring to is a Civil War Era Cannon Ball...
[/quote
He removed the item after being told by the boss that after researching the cannonball there was a history of blowing up even after a century.
1. Evacuate
2. Call 911 to explain the situation
***DON'T TOUCH THE EXPLOSIVE DEVICE*****
It's kind of like that scene in top gun. 'Son you did an incredibly brave thing today. What you should have done was land your airplane'.
Quote from: RRLE on November 21, 2014, 09:26:22 PM
Did the cannonball have a fuse or fuse hole/port? My understanding of ordnance from that era is that the exploding shells had a fuse port/hole. The fuse was ignited by the firing of the cannon. Without a fuse port/hole, i.e. a solid cannonball, the cannonball should have been inert.
Old ordnance can be deadly the USS San Diego/California (ACR-6) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_California_(ACR-6)#Wreck) is a popular dive spot. Every so often, divers remove some of her ordnance as souvenirs and some of it explodes, killing them.
Yes it had fuse port. We did not see it at the plant. The EOD guy said it was designed to explode on impact and still had everything inside. They x-rayed before detonating.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 21, 2014, 11:11:12 PM
It's kind of like that scene in top gun. 'Son you did an incredibly brave thing today. What you should have done was land your airplane'.
Very similar to what the officer said.
.. the day of the battle, no one is thinking about people digging up stuff hundreds of years later.
The problem is that explosives, like some us on CP get more unstable with age.
As parts of the world recognize the 100th anniversary of World War I, lest we forget another of the aftermaths...UXO and the "Iron Harvest."
http://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-still-clearing-out-deadly-world-war-i-mines-from-northeastern-france-2014-5 (http://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-still-clearing-out-deadly-world-war-i-mines-from-northeastern-france-2014-5)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16131857 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16131857)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497732/The-iron-harvest-Meet-soldiers-tasked-clearing-hundreds-tonnes-deadly-World-War-I-shells-mines-beneath-fields-Flanders.html#ixzz2pUgxnQkI (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497732/The-iron-harvest-Meet-soldiers-tasked-clearing-hundreds-tonnes-deadly-World-War-I-shells-mines-beneath-fields-Flanders.html#ixzz2pUgxnQkI)
I wonder how many of those rounds impacted next to a soldier who saw it?
Quote from: a2capt on November 23, 2014, 07:48:49 PM
.. the day of the battle, no one is thinking about people digging up stuff hundreds of years later.
True. It is easier to thing logically after the events are over.
With all due respect, you did the wrong thing, and shouldn't be patting yourself on the back about it, or bragging about it on the internet.
Wait, CAPMando already has a SMOV? Really? Due Tell. :)
Yes, I realize that some of the feedback, opinions, advice, rants, recommendations, are coming from those with applicable actual experience in the scenario, however in pretty much any situation, it's all armchair reactions.
But without the vibe of the actual surroundings, and not being there at all .. it's really easy to say, and hard to tell, what you'd have actually done.
You know....that's true for just about every "hero" ever.
20 seconds after we say "man that was great!" we start saying "but why didn't you just do....." or "you really should never have been there in the first place" or some such second guessing.
So....back to my orignal post....."Son you did and incredibly brave thing today....." :)
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 06:37:16 PM
Let me clarify. What you did took guts. Provided what you stated is true, I'd hope to see you getting a MoV at the next wing conference. However, next time someone drops a bomb on your desk, evacuate the building, not the bomb. :)
*****Red highlight mine*****
In reference to my post/statement and your feedback. Please see attached. I did cover the signatures for privacy purposes.
Albany Police Department Case #22-14-022971 Date: 10/23/14
I was involved in a pretty hairy LE situation once where everything came off without a hitch. Later I had some guys pull me aside and point out where I went wrong in an area and where something could have REALLY went wrong in that particular area. Interestingly and ironically enough, I had consciously made the decision to skip the step they pointed out to me in the interest of time. But it was a situation where I controlled the time frame of events. So what I had done was create a potential dangerous situation in the interest of saving the time in the time line I controlled. I had my reasons, but it didn't negate the fact that I had justified making a bad call on the run. Nobody would ever know unless you were specifically trained to handle that type of scenario. Probably why the two guys who approached me were experts in their fields. Because they noticed. Neither person who approached me was present during the incident. Neither one had anything to gain or lose by contacting me. But they are friends of mine. Responding back "You weren't there" or "You are entitled to your opinion" was the furthest thing from my mind. I was honored that these guys sought me out to talk to me. Maybe its because here, we all don't actually know each other. We are just screen names tapping out unsolicited advice. Your initial post wasn't written with the intent of having people point out the good and the bad.
When a public safety, military person or person specifically trained in a field messes up acting in good faith, they pay the price. When they are successful usually nobody cares because its just their job. When a civilian makes a bad decision in good faith and it works out, they win. If they make a bad decision in good faith and it doesn't work out, well at least they did the best they could. If they die or are injured, they are injured or die as heroes. Have you ever read an after action report on an officer killed on duty? Wow.... yes, there are medals awarded, there are ceremonies... and THEN..... comes the AAR where nothing is sacred and discipline and corrective action comes raining down. Policies are changed, commanders are removed, tactics are altered. What was acceptable last night, is no longer acceptable tonight. Perhaps we didn't allow you your moment in the sun before we unleashed. That comment is legit and sincere on my part.
Seriously, probably just putting a :clap: and moving on would have been better.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 24, 2014, 09:48:03 PM
I was involved in a pretty hairy LE situation once where everything came off without a hitch. Later I had some guys pull me aside and point out where I went wrong in an area and where something could have REALLY went wrong in that particular area. Interestingly and ironically enough, I had consciously made the decision to skip the step they pointed out to me in the interest of time. But it was a situation where I controlled the time frame of events. So what I had done was create a potential dangerous situation in the interest of saving the time in the time line I controlled. I had my reasons, but it didn't negate the fact that I had justified making a bad call on the run. Nobody would ever know unless you were specifically trained to handle that type of scenario. Probably why the two guys who approached me were experts in their fields. Because they noticed. Neither person who approached me was present during the incident. Neither one had anything to gain or lose by contacting me. But they are friends of mine. Responding back "You weren't there" or "You are entitled to your opinion" was the furthest thing from my mind. I was honored that these guys sought me out to talk to me. Maybe its because here, we all don't actually know each other. We are just screen names tapping out unsolicited advice. Your initial post wasn't written with the intent of having people point out the good and the bad.
When a public safety, military person or person specifically trained in a field messes up acting in good faith, they pay the price. When they are successful usually nobody cares because its just their job. When a civilian makes a bad decision in good faith and it works out, they win. If they make a bad decision in good faith and it doesn't work out, well at least they did the best they could. If they die or are injured, they are injured or die as heroes. Have you ever read an after action report on an officer killed on duty? Wow.... yes, there are medals awarded, there are ceremonies... and THEN..... comes the AAR where nothing is sacred and discipline and corrective action comes raining down. Policies are changed, commanders are removed, tactics are altered. What was acceptable last night, is no longer acceptable tonight. Perhaps we didn't allow you your moment in the sun before we unleashed. That comment is legit and sincere on my part.
Seriously, probably just putting a :clap: and moving on would have been better.
Believe it or not I appreciate any and all feedback I get. In my line of work you cannot have a thin skin or take things too personal. This includes that received from the "true" professionals such as the officer that responded. I listened and learned from him. I also take in and consider what I have read here. You are correct in that we very rarely truly "know" the people we chat with on CAPTalk, and like you I still offer advice and take it as well.
I have also done an Internal Root Cause Analysis and After Action Report for both the facility and myself.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 21, 2014, 06:37:16 PM
Let me clarify. What you did took guts. Provided what you stated is true, I'd hope to see you getting a MoV at the next wing conference. However, next time someone drops a bomb on your desk, evacuate the building, not the bomb. :)
Added scan of report with name covered.
*****Red highlight mine*****
That sounds like a better plan
*****Yellow highlight mine*****
Quote from: capmando on November 21, 2014, 02:04:30 PM
Well my friends it was an exciting day. On the eve of my 47th birthday I had a most interesting day at work. About 1 pm, I returned from lunch with my sister and walked by the boss's office on the way to mine. He asked me if I wanted to see the "ball" they found in the back part of the facility. I go into his office and this ball that he was referring to is a Civil War Era Cannon Ball. He is on his computer looking this thing up and asks me to get a tape measure. I measure the Cannon Ball and found it to be 4 ½ inch. What he read to me next was scary. This type of cannon ball has been found in several areas and that many of the collectors have been KILLED because they exploded in their houses or while they were holding them. He decided we needed to get the thing out of the building but did not want to just "pick it up". We went outside to find a bucket to put it in. I found a 5 gallon bucket while he was reading the history of the prior discoveries. When I came back he said this type of cannon ball had exploded several times and killed some avid collectors and treasure hunters. I took the cannon ball from the desk and placed it inside the bucket.
At this point we decided we needed to get this thing out of the building and call someone. We did not want to create a bomb scare or media event and thought of ways to keep that from happening. We are a large chemical facility and it could cause a lot of panic. I called one of my former colleagues at the sheriff's department and asked for some guidance and a phone number. He patched me through to the Police Department Communications Center where I advised the dispatcher of what we had and what we understood about the history. They decided they were going to send out a Bomb Squad. I asked if they could send an unmarked unit so we would not create a city wide panic. They decided to send a Bomb Sniffing Dog. We were going to have to wait for a while so they could locate the team and send them to us without going over their Communications System. This was done to keep the media from picking up the broadcast and coming to the facility.
While we were waiting the facility owner and myself felt we needed to make sure people stayed away from the bucket and the potential harm it could cause. We were going to initially keep the bucket locked in the building and have the people leave. I told him I didn't like the idea of this thing being inside the building and that I was going to move it somewhere away from us and others. Before he could disagree I picked the bucket up and went through the building to the front of the facility. My heart was pounding like crazy and all I could think about was dropping this thing and it blowing up. I took it outside and place it under a tree. The boss and I cleared the area of people and waited for the Police to arrive.
He went inside to make some phone calls and I stood "guard" around the ball to keep people away for at least 50 feet for about an hour. I even had to stop the landscaping people from doing their work and ask them to wait for a while to do it. I have never been so scared and nervous at the same time. I was thinking worse case scenarios the entire time. It took the city a little while to get the team together and send to us. When they arrived the dog sniffed around the item. The officer inspected the cannon ball and said the only way to truly know would be to x-ray the ball. We told them they could take it and do what they needed. The police officer decided it would be best to take it to their area and detonate the cannon ball to make sure it would not pose any harm.
Though I acted pretty tame during the whole event I was petrified and scared. How many times does one person find a Cannon Ball that could explode?
Can I now add it to the resume??? ;D ;D ;D
When the officer brought a copy of the report by my office I asked what happened to the Cannon Ball, he said they did a controlled detonation and disposed of it.
I'd say you were verrry fortunate the thing didn't go off, injuring or killing those within the building. The next time the boss does something that stupid, call 911 and clear the area - and not by just 50 feet! Old military ordnance is nothing to play with. It's very unstable a nd can explode at the most inopportune times.