I just received an order from Vanguard. It was complete and delivered quickly. But, I pulled out the cloth squadron command badge. It is horrible. A blind monkey could have embroidered it with his feet better! What gives with the shoddy quality control?
As so many of us have found out, that is what happens when one vendor has a monopoly.
And this time no one can complain about The Hock Shop...
Quote from: CyBorg on August 27, 2014, 03:04:41 PM
As so many of us have found out, that is what happens when one vendor has a monopoly.
Or when there are no defined specifications.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on August 27, 2014, 03:44:31 PM
And this time no one can complain about The Hock Shop...
Gosh I miss Tom and the Hock Shop. It was also so weird going there to pick up my orders. For those that don't know how small of an operation it was, it was run out of his basement you would enter through the Bulk Head.
Oh yeaaaaaaaah.... the Hock Shop. I loved it. You called, he actually answered the phone, took your order and with a few days it was at your door. I used to get everything from him.
It was great, although the quality for some of the items was the same he got some of his stuff from the Vanguard.
Quote from: Angus on August 27, 2014, 04:53:23 PMIt was great, although the quality for some of the items was the same he got some of his stuff from the Vanguard.
..and his answer was "meh, deal with it" .. at least Vanguard seems to respond and fix stuff. Though it shouldn't have gotten past QA in the first place.
Quote from: a2capt on August 27, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Quote from: Angus on August 27, 2014, 04:53:23 PMIt was great, although the quality for some of the items was the same he got some of his stuff from the Vanguard.
..and his answer was "meh, deal with it" .. at least Vanguard seems to respond and fix stuff. Though it shouldn't have gotten past QA in the first place.
That was only on the stuff he got from them. If it came from other vendors he worked with he would get it fixed. At lease I know he did for people here in MAWG.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 27, 2014, 02:58:01 PM
I just received an order from Vanguard. It was complete and delivered quickly. But, I pulled out the cloth squadron command badge. It is horrible. A blind monkey could have embroidered it with his feet better! What gives with the shoddy quality control?
so, what's it look like? photo?
I must be the only one who didn't like that place. When it takes 7 months just to get 5 shoulder cords, and your not given the option to cancel due to back order, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 27, 2014, 06:34:48 PM
I must be the only one who didn't like that place. When it takes 7 months just to get 5 shoulder cords, and your not given the option to cancel due to back order, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
1 month for nametapes. Shoddy quality patches, uniforms, insignia, etc.
Ditto on the other vendor - played the "Good Oll CAP Boy" role and then charged as much or more for
knockoffs.
As to the VG command badge, they have been bad for a long time, too much detail in too small an insignia.
Someone also needs to correct it as it has the wrong MAJCOM.
Just send it back.
I've just opted to not wear it. I Know the reg says you're supposed to...but I'm a Minimalist.
I'm wondering...if we ALL sent back the items we find "wanting" as far as quality, would they try to improve their QA, tell us to suck it, or what?
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 27, 2014, 09:42:09 PM
I'm wondering...if we ALL sent back the items we find "wanting" as far as quality, would they try to improve their QA, tell us to suck it, or what?
In VG's defense, at least from the messages here, if you send things back, they correct or replace them.
The membership should not have to do VG's QC, but at least there's that.
Also there is a CAP Point of Contact for Vanguard Issues......by all means complain to VG and send bad stuff back.....and follow up with an E-mail to CAP so they are aware.
The current GT badges are awful as well. The two senior ones I have are ridiculous, almost cartoonist looking. I will send them back with a nastygram.
I think it's time for all members to unite and talk to NHQ about this issue and how Vanguard keep making things worse. Outrages prices and poor quality.
When I was a cadet 19 years ago, I usually went to a local military surplus, whom had a local supplier who provided all CAP items from badges, ranks and ribbons. It was cheaper and great quality. I remember getting squadron patches through different vendors.
Give us the ability to shop around. No to the Monopoly!
Somebody (I forgot who) posted a few months ago about the poor quality cloth command badge. He contacted VG, who promised to fix things. I held off on ordering them, waiting for the fix.
When I finally ordered them, I took one look and thought that it looked like a bird dropping on a car hood.
Quote from: SARDOC on August 27, 2014, 09:33:19 PM
I've just opted to not wear it. I Know the reg says you're supposed to...but I'm a Minimalist.
I pass on it too. 8)
Quote from: LATORRECA on August 29, 2014, 02:07:38 AM
I think it's time for all members to unite and talk to NHQ about this issue and how Vanguard keep making things worse. Outrages prices and poor quality.
When I was a cadet 19 years ago, I usually went to a local military surplus, whom had a local supplier who provided all CAP items from badges, ranks and ribbons. It was cheaper and great quality. I remember getting squadron patches through different vendors.
Give us the ability to shop around. No to the Monopoly!
Where else could you go for CAP specific items?
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 27, 2014, 02:58:01 PM
I just received an order from Vanguard. It was complete and delivered quickly. But, I pulled out the cloth squadron command badge. It is horrible. A blind monkey could have embroidered it with his feet better! What gives with the shoddy quality control?
even BLIND MONKEYS gotta work.kudo's to vanguard for employing them!
:clap: :clap:
>:D
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
Specifications .. Pah!
If you -look- at some of that stuff.. it just looks -awful- from the get go. Wouldn't you think someone would say "hey, this looks like someone digitized pigeon bombs.."
Quote from: NorCal21 on August 30, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
No specifications...hmmm...well, there are the HUNDREDS of examples people wear, plus the myriad PROPER images in CAPM 39-1, plus all the images floating around on the internets, so...
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: NorCal21 on August 30, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
No specifications...hmmm...well, there are the HUNDREDS of examples people wear, plus the myriad PROPER images in CAPM 39-1, plus all the images floating around on the internets, so...
A picture is not specification. A specification would describe the item in detail, including size, shape, color (in industry standard colors), weight, stitch count (embroidered items), etc, so that anyone could make it without having to interpret a picture and any of the items made to specification would identical without regard to manufacturer or batch. This is something CAP has not provided to Vanguard. I do not know why they haven't.
Quote from: arajca on August 31, 2014, 07:49:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: NorCal21 on August 30, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
No specifications...hmmm...well, there are the HUNDREDS of examples people wear, plus the myriad PROPER images in CAPM 39-1, plus all the images floating around on the internets, so...
A picture is not specification. A specification would describe the item in detail, including size, shape, color (in industry standard colors), weight, stitch count (embroidered items), etc, so that anyone could make it without having to interpret a picture and any of the items made to specification would identical without regard to manufacturer or batch. This is something CAP has not provided to Vanguard. I do not know why they haven't.
I still stand by my statement. Based on the pictures alone, one could extrapolate the information necessary to make a quality product. A simple phone call or e-mail would take care of the rest. Based on the number of negative responses to their quality, by returns, complaints and word of mouth, one would think they could take a proactive step and say "hey, maybe we need to get the information straight from the source. Someone call/e-mail CAP!"
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 31, 2014, 07:49:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: NorCal21 on August 30, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
No specifications...hmmm...well, there are the HUNDREDS of examples people wear, plus the myriad PROPER images in CAPM 39-1, plus all the images floating around on the internets, so...
A picture is not specification. A specification would describe the item in detail, including size, shape, color (in industry standard colors), weight, stitch count (embroidered items), etc, so that anyone could make it without having to interpret a picture and any of the items made to specification would identical without regard to manufacturer or batch. This is something CAP has not provided to Vanguard. I do not know why they haven't.
I still stand by my statement. Based on the pictures alone, one could extrapolate the information necessary to make a quality product. A simple phone call or e-mail would take care of the rest. Based on the number of negative responses to their quality, by returns, complaints and word of mouth, one would think they could take a proactive step and say "hey, maybe we need to get the information straight from the source. Someone call/e-mail CAP!"
They may have, but does CAP have specifications for the stuff? Again, pictures are NOT specifications. VG may have been trying to get by without specifications using your methods, but with very inconsistent results as the members have repeated complained about.
Also, not all badges designs convert to embroidery well. Frequently due to the amount of detail relative to the size.
Quote from: arajca on August 31, 2014, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 31, 2014, 07:49:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 31, 2014, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: NorCal21 on August 30, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
Someone mentioned it earlier... there's no specifications. Other than maybe some basic considerations there's not a very detailed uniform manual with specific dimensions and data for a company to accurately create sew-ons. I'm not trying to let VG off the hook, but at the same time they don't have much to work with.
No specifications...hmmm...well, there are the HUNDREDS of examples people wear, plus the myriad PROPER images in CAPM 39-1, plus all the images floating around on the internets, so...
A picture is not specification. A specification would describe the item in detail, including size, shape, color (in industry standard colors), weight, stitch count (embroidered items), etc, so that anyone could make it without having to interpret a picture and any of the items made to specification would identical without regard to manufacturer or batch. This is something CAP has not provided to Vanguard. I do not know why they haven't.
I still stand by my statement. Based on the pictures alone, one could extrapolate the information necessary to make a quality product. A simple phone call or e-mail would take care of the rest. Based on the number of negative responses to their quality, by returns, complaints and word of mouth, one would think they could take a proactive step and say "hey, maybe we need to get the information straight from the source. Someone call/e-mail CAP!"
They may have, but does CAP have specifications for the stuff? Again, pictures are NOT specifications. VG may have been trying to get by without specifications using your methods, but with very inconsistent results as the members have repeated complained about.
Also, not all badges designs convert to embroidery well. Frequently due to the amount of detail relative to the size.
Based on what I've seen regarding quality of name tapes, CAP tapes, GT badges...they may be employing a blind embroiderer. The specifications, as I said, are readily available, in photo and drawings. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at one, embroider one, then say "this don't match. Maybe I should adjust it."
The failure lies on both sides. If CAP did not furnish proper models and sizes, then it was incumbent on VG to make the next logical move and find out.
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
Quote from: Private Investigator on August 29, 2014, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 27, 2014, 09:33:19 PM
I've just opted to not wear it. I Know the reg says you're supposed to...but I'm a Minimalist.
I pass on it too. 8)
Are you both wearing blues or whites?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2014, 03:14:00 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on August 29, 2014, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 27, 2014, 09:33:19 PM
I've just opted to not wear it. I Know the reg says you're supposed to...but I'm a Minimalist.
I pass on it too. 8)
Are you both wearing blues or whites?
Corporates only for me...The reg says it's optional. I initially read the new reg as it was required for all. But it's not.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
I tried my hand at digitizing. It's not like decal creation. After you get the outline put in (scanned, drawn, imported, whatever) the digitizer then has to determine what stitch pattern, count, angle, etc for each distinct part of the design. Also, the material the design is being embroidered on plays a role as to the stitch count. Then, the design needs to be test run, ideally on the same type of machine the embroiderer will be using, and checked against the spec, if one exists. Rinse, lather, repeat until the design meets spec.
Keep in mind, the person who 'knows' what the end result should look like may 'see' the proper end result, even if no one else does. Kind of like an author proof-reading their own work.
Corporates only for me...The reg says it's optional. I initially read the new reg as it was required for all. But it's not.
[/quote]
virtually everything is optional on Corporates....basically nametag and grade are all that's mandatory
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
I tried my hand at digitizing. It's not like decal creation. After you get the outline put in (scanned, drawn, imported, whatever) the digitizer then has to determine what stitch pattern, count, angle, etc for each distinct part of the design. Also, the material the design is being embroidered on plays a role as to the stitch count. Then, the design needs to be test run, ideally on the same type of machine the embroiderer will be using, and checked against the spec, if one exists. Rinse, lather, repeat until the design meets spec.
Keep in mind, the person who 'knows' what the end result should look like may 'see' the proper end result, even if no one else does. Kind of like an author proof-reading their own work.
And yet places like The Tiger Shop outside of Kadena AB, Japan have no trouble at all producing quality work from simple drawings.
Interesting...
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
By that same logic, those who are ignorant of the law, the law favors, right? If I am ignorant of one of the hundreds of thousands of lines in the tax code and I deduct something that I shouldn't have, who does the judicial system favor? Me? No. They side with the government because the LAW IS THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ. By the same token, if VG doesn't get the material/pattern/template they need, CAP can claim ignorance, and VG gets the blame. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ASK.
Laywered.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
By that same logic, those who are ignorant of the law, the law favors, right? If I am ignorant of one of the hundreds of thousands of lines in the tax code and I deduct something that I shouldn't have, who does the judicial system favor? Me? No. They side with the government because the LAW IS THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ. By the same token, if VG doesn't get the material/pattern/template they need, CAP can claim ignorance, and VG gets the blame. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ASK.
Laywered.
However, if VG did ask and CAP declines to provide the specs, is VG to blame for the crappy product?
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
By that same logic, those who are ignorant of the law, the law favors, right? If I am ignorant of one of the hundreds of thousands of lines in the tax code and I deduct something that I shouldn't have, who does the judicial system favor? Me? No. They side with the government because the LAW IS THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ. By the same token, if VG doesn't get the material/pattern/template they need, CAP can claim ignorance, and VG gets the blame. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ASK.
Laywered.
However, if VG did ask and CAP declines to provide the specs, is VG to blame for the crappy product?
Yes, because they can decline to provide a "Crappy product". Free market and all.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 07:18:15 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
By that same logic, those who are ignorant of the law, the law favors, right? If I am ignorant of one of the hundreds of thousands of lines in the tax code and I deduct something that I shouldn't have, who does the judicial system favor? Me? No. They side with the government because the LAW IS THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ. By the same token, if VG doesn't get the material/pattern/template they need, CAP can claim ignorance, and VG gets the blame. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ASK.
Laywered.
However, if VG did ask and CAP declines to provide the specs, is VG to blame for the crappy product?
Yes, because they can decline to provide a "Crappy product". Free market and all.
However, VG is required to carry ALL CAP insignia as part of the single supplier contract. The free market does not apply.
In theory, someone at CAP NHQ should be doing quality control checks on VG insignia. Presumably, the embroidered command badge passed that check, but I wouldn't guarantee someone is doing QC. So we get what we get.
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 07:57:42 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 07:18:15 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
By that same logic, those who are ignorant of the law, the law favors, right? If I am ignorant of one of the hundreds of thousands of lines in the tax code and I deduct something that I shouldn't have, who does the judicial system favor? Me? No. They side with the government because the LAW IS THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ. By the same token, if VG doesn't get the material/pattern/template they need, CAP can claim ignorance, and VG gets the blame. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ASK.
Laywered.
However, if VG did ask and CAP declines to provide the specs, is VG to blame for the crappy product?
Yes, because they can decline to provide a "Crappy product". Free market and all.
However, VG is required to carry ALL CAP insignia as part of the single supplier contract. The free market does not apply.
In theory, someone at CAP NHQ should be doing quality control checks on VG insignia. Presumably, the embroidered command badge passed that check, but I wouldn't guarantee someone is doing QC. So we get what we get.
Agreed. What were we fighting about again? >:D
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 08:12:26 PM
Agreed. What were we fighting about again? >:D
Who's to blame for the crappy cloth Commander's badge.
And now, contenders, prepare for round 10 in this seemingly non-ending fight for the World Championship blah blah blah...
:angel:
Spec or no spec, it's not like Vanguard hasn't seen these types of products before. Someone burning just a few braincells over it should come to the conclusion that "this" does not resemble much of anything and perhaps we should take the initiative and make the customer a better product so that the contractor will see that we more than value our business relationship.
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
Quote from: a2capt on September 01, 2014, 09:51:19 PM
Spec or no spec, it's not like Vanguard hasn't seen these types of products before. Someone burning just a few braincells over it should come to the conclusion that "this" does not resemble much of anything and perhaps we should take the initiative and make the customer a better product so that the contractor will see that we more than value our business relationship.
Problem is that Vanguard has either brought or run out of business just about all of their competators.
So if CAP decided to go somewhere else, where would that be?
Vanguard has us over a barrel and they know it.
"I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander."
NCO is the way to go!
Quote from: PHall on September 01, 2014, 10:02:03 PMProblem is that Vanguard has either brought or run out of business just about all of their competators.
So if CAP decided to go somewhere else, where would that be?
Vanguard has us over a barrel and they know it.
There's about eleventy twelveteen vendors who can make insignia, especially if US manufacturers are not a requirement.
Quote from: supertigerCH on September 01, 2014, 10:06:39 PM
"I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander."
NCO is the way to go!
Famous last words indeed.
Next meeting somebody will say, "can you hold this" as they pass you the Squadron flag and then we all run out the back door. 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on September 02, 2014, 12:34:31 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on September 01, 2014, 10:06:39 PM
"I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander."
NCO is the way to go!
Famous last words indeed.
Next meeting somebody will say, "can you hold this" as they pass you the Squadron flag and then we all run out the back door. 8)
They are all well aware that if they try to hand me command I will be out the door so fast it will bend the space-time continuum. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey will not apply. No one wants me in charge. They'd rather turn it over to Kim Il Sun, or whatever that little demagogue's name is.
Really, ANYONE could be our supplier. Vanguard is convenient because they also make the insignia. But the reality is that we could put it out to bid and Amazon, or LL Bean, or Walmart could bid. It's really just another SKU number to them. The catch though, is that CAP would have to supply them with specs and such so they could source them from somewhere. It'd just be another item in their long list of items that they keep in stock.
The specs are what change the game, because Vanguard has a history of making uniform items, they have a general idea of what is expected. But with a book of specs for a supplier, it just becomes a logistics game, and there are plenty of company's that are far better at logistics.
Quote from: PHall on September 01, 2014, 03:33:07 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 01, 2014, 12:51:16 AM
These are not hand embroidered. They are done on a computer controlled machine, which needs a digitized pattern. Creating this pattern is not a trivial task, and if done sans due diligence, leads to the crappy product were are currently receiving.
My point being, if CAP did NOT furnish the template or specifications, then it was VG who is responsible for pursuing the matter.
If it's anything like using a program similar to the ones used for making decals, all they need to do is scan in the template and use that.
And if and when CAP declines to provide said specs, Vanguard takes its best guess, which is how we end up with what we got. And the fault is STILL CAP's.
I tried my hand at digitizing. It's not like decal creation. After you get the outline put in (scanned, drawn, imported, whatever) the digitizer then has to determine what stitch pattern, count, angle, etc for each distinct part of the design. Also, the material the design is being embroidered on plays a role as to the stitch count. Then, the design needs to be test run, ideally on the same type of machine the embroiderer will be using, and checked against the spec, if one exists. Rinse, lather, repeat until the design meets spec.
Keep in mind, the person who 'knows' what the end result should look like may 'see' the proper end result, even if no one else does. Kind of like an author proof-reading their own work.
And yet places like The Tiger Shop outside of Kadena AB, Japan have no trouble at all producing quality work from simple drawings.
Interesting...
Or any local embroidery shop near any major military installation.
Quote from: PHall on September 01, 2014, 03:33:07 PM
And yet places like The Tiger Shop outside of Kadena AB, Japan have no trouble at all producing quality work from simple drawings.
Interesting...
For those not familiar with the Tiger Shop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAGm_YTwYhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAGm_YTwYhs)
Or Kadena AB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn27REibQ_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn27REibQ_E)
Enjoy my friends ;)
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
The same for me. I have been a Deputy CC, but they don't make a badge for that.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
The same for me. I have been a Deputy CC, but they don't make a badge for that.
But they do, it's blue on blue...
Quote from: PHall on September 03, 2014, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
The same for me. I have been a Deputy CC, but they don't make a badge for that.
But they do, it's blue on blue...
Lo-viz?
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 04:49:24 AM
Quote from: PHall on September 03, 2014, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
The same for me. I have been a Deputy CC, but they don't make a badge for that.
But they do, it's blue on blue...
Lo-viz?
No-viz.
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000002106545_MED.jpg)Well, the AF Commander's Badge looks pretty neat & clean
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_289_290_1834&products_id=17387 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_289_290_1834&products_id=17387)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/000000CAP0745S_MED.jpg)But the CAP version (even the image they have on the web) is pretty pathetic.
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_2513_412_414&products_id=14420 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_2513_412_414&products_id=14420)
I don't care why as much, as I care about what to do about it. Because one has MilSpec and the other has NoSpec, isn't a good enough answer. For me at least.
(EDIT) - Maybe this one reason we as an organization can't look professional, even when we try.
We really need a redesign of the CAP Commander's Badge.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on September 04, 2014, 03:49:08 PM
We really need a redesign of the CAP Commander's Badge.
Yes, especially since it violates 900-2. Pull Happ Arnold and put the MAJCOM in there - it'll render a lot easier
and be compliant.
Quote from: Papabird on September 04, 2014, 03:45:41 PM
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000002106545_MED.jpg)Well, the AF Commander's Badge looks pretty neat & clean
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_289_290_1834&products_id=17387 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_289_290_1834&products_id=17387)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/000000CAP0745S_MED.jpg)But the CAP version (even the image they have on the web) is pretty pathetic.
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_2513_412_414&products_id=14420 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_2513_412_414&products_id=14420)
I don't care why as much, as I care about what to do about it. Because one has MilSpec and the other has NoSpec, isn't a good enough answer. For me at least.
(EDIT) - Maybe this one reason we as an organization can't look professional, even when we try.
The blue one looks like rolled poop, but to be fair on the comparison, the USAF one is solid embroidered in two dark colors
and has very little intricate detail. The CAP one is high-contrast as displayed, and has some farily tiny detail to
render with only one or two stich rows.
This is something to consider, folks, when designing insignia and badges - can they actually be produced in quantity?
Quote from: PHall on September 04, 2014, 02:48:45 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 04:49:24 AM
Quote from: PHall on September 03, 2014, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 03, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 01, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
I'm not sure why I entered the argument, except that I will probably source my material elsewhere. I don't really have a dog in this fight since I will never, EVER, be a squadron commander.
The same for me. I have been a Deputy CC, but they don't make a badge for that.
But they do, it's blue on blue...
Lo-viz?
No-viz.
Stealth.