I searched for an existing thread and, well... didn't find a good fit so I'm starting this one.
Myself, a SMSGT I know and a couple of other members have significant prior service badges. Many of which are authorized by the AFI that governs wear of the uniform. 39-1 reflects that the Air Force dictates wear and position of military badges on the AF style uniforms and to contact CAPHQ regarding those items not lites in 39-1 table blah, blah, blah..
When I called about this, in February, I was told that it would be looked into. I'm still waiting for this information. I follow up and when I finally get through, I get the "I haven't forgotten about you..." schpeel and a polite 'blow off".
What does the membership at large think? Should this be a point of issue or should we not be wearing any prior service garb?
Welcome, SGT Savage.
There is a section in CAPM 39-1 that lists the military badges authorized to be worn on the CAP uniform. In the Air Force, Jump Wings fall under "aeronautical" badges, so you won't see jump wings, but you can wear them.
If I remember correctly from your military.com profile, you can wear pretty much all of yours, minus the Ranger Tab. Sorry, its just not listed. That isn't to say, I haven't seen it worn on blues.
Look at table 6-5, Page 116 in this link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/M39_1_chap_6_sec_B.pdf
You may also want to check out this thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1891.0 where we listed a couple of places to get Army and Air Force badges made in white on ultramarine (blue).
Again, welcome.
Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for sending me here.
Combat Infantry, Combat Medical and CAB, Air Assault Badge,
Pathfinder Badge, Ranger Tab, Parachute Riggers Badge, Scuba Badge are all authorized by AFI 36-2903. I, personally don't have any major issues with 39-1 though, it doesn't include the Ranger Tab or the CAB. My bigger concern is really the CAB. I don't have one but some do and deserve the right to wear it. I wouldn't mind donning my Tab but, the badge doesn't make the man, it's the experience that earned it that makes the man.
The question I posed to Natonal was regarding the CAB, minus the Ranger tab. Still can't get an answer after 3 months.
It also isn't very clear regarding the CMB. 39-1 says "Army Medical Badge" which seems to point to the EFMB, but doesn't specify.
Does this process require an ammendment to the reg?
It already say both "Only those badges authorized for wear on the USAF uniform are authorized on the CAP uniform"
and "on the BDU as prescribed by the US Air Force."
None the less, no joy.
Jim
39-1 hasn't been updated to include the CAB, but there is no doubt in my military mind that the CAB is/will be authorized. The uniform committee at CAP may not even know what the CAB is.
As for the CMB, its good to go. The Air Force isn't exactly accurate in their interpretation either. They say "medical badge", which to me, includes EFMB as well as CMB.
I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms. Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.
The tabs (Ranger, SF, Sapper, etc) just don't have a place on the CAP BDUs since the only patches allowed on the left sleeve are wing patches or nothing at all. Same goes for the Air Force.
That being said, we had a guy up in National Capital Wing who wore SF and Ranger (subdued) above his wing patch. I didn't think it looked great and wasn't just slightly against regs, it was absolutely not authorized, but hey, it wasn't like he was walking around on a military base or at encampment, we were in the field.
SGT Savage - what Battalion did you serve and when?
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 02:00:32 PM
I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms. Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.
I thought that was how it worked already... CAP just added badges to the table that are not authorized by AFI 36-2903.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 02:00:32 PMThe tabs (Ranger, SF, Sapper, etc) just don't have a place on the CAP BDUs since the only patches allowed on the left sleeve are wing patches or nothing at all. Same goes for the Air Force.
Saw a CAP Lt Col wear one of the metal pin-on Ranger tabs next to jump wings in service dress once.
IMO as just a CAP member and an Auxie... Badges which are not common to most services just look out of place on some uniforms. I realize that people are justifiably proud of their service, but still...
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
Quote from: Rangersigo on April 11, 2007, 03:09:34 PM
SGT Savage - what Battalion did you serve and when?
B Co. 3 Bat 92-93
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 03:29:24 PM
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
I have heard of this type of instance several times, and each time I have to ask myself why those members (the ones wearing the tabs/unauth. badges) do not respect the CAP uniform and regulations? Yes, they have earned those tabs. Yes, they have meaning. No, they are not authorized on the CAP uniform. If they cannot follow CAP's regs, why did they bother to join?
I would not have rudely informed your buddy, but I would have informed him and asked if he had any plans to follow the CAP regs regarding uniform wear. If he didn't, I would invite him to leave and not return until he did.
Quote from: arajca on April 11, 2007, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 03:29:24 PM
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
I have heard of this type of instance several times, and each time I have to ask myself why those members (the ones wearing the tabs/unauth. badges) do not respect the CAP uniform and regulations? Yes, they have earned those tabs. Yes, they have meaning. No, they are not authorized on the CAP uniform. If they cannot follow CAP's regs, why did they bother to join?
My tabs and scroll are on my helmnet bag, but I did wear the CIB and Master Para Badge on CAP uniforms.
SGT Savage - I have some extra white on blue CIB's and Master Blaster badges if you need some.
RLTW 2nd Batt 1975
Remember that the tab is a school certificate, but the scroll is a way of life
Quote from: arajca on April 11, 2007, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 03:29:24 PM
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
I have heard of this type of instance several times, and each time I have to ask myself why those members (the ones wearing the tabs/unauth. badges) do not respect the CAP uniform and regulations? Yes, they have earned those tabs. Yes, they have meaning. No, they are not authorized on the CAP uniform. If they cannot follow CAP's regs, why did they bother to join?
I would not have rudely informed your buddy, but I would have informed him and asked if he had any plans to follow the CAP regs regarding uniform wear. If he didn't, I would invite him to leave and not return until he did.
If I'm not mistaken, the tab is authorized on the USAF uniform or at least it was back then. I'm also not sure if it was specified for CAP wear back then either. He was a stickler for uniforms so I know he would not have worn it unauthorized. This was in the 80's
Air Force personnel may wear Army patches, i.e. unit patches and tabs only while assigned to Army units, such as TACPs. Once they leave that unit/duty and return to an Air Force unit, those patches have to come off, including combat patches.
That's just how it is.
As for our Rangers in CAP, Trung Si Ma has the right idea. Helmet bags are great way to proudly show where you've been and where you're coming from. I have the same set up. Got some Army and Air Force stuff on my helmet bag. Sort of tells a story.
Hooah.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on April 11, 2007, 04:19:01 PM
RLTW 2nd Batt 1975
Remember that the tab is a school certificate, but the scroll is a way of life
I just wanted to say thank you for all of you guys for your service and I think that its a shame that you aren't allowed to wear all your badges that you earned.
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 03:29:24 PM
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
"....In ancient Greece, the Spartan General Leonidas was charged with guarding a mountain pass with just 300 men to delay the invading million man Persian army. When the Persian leader Xerxes offered to spare his men if they gave up their arms, [saying "Send the arms / weapons"], Leonidas replied "Molon Lave" (can't get the Greek to post right), or "Come and get them."... http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php/topic,281.0.html
/SARCASM ON/ Don't forget CAP already has Rangers, and unless you don't go through their training, you are not a "real" ranger /SARCASM OFF/
Hey Sgt Savage...
Just a little background on NHQ and uniform items/badges.
First... the folks at NHQ aren't trying to not anwer your question. If you are asking about the CAB... truth is... they probably don't know themselves. If it is a badge that isn't already covered... they have to ask the Air Force. And... well... as you can imagine... the Air Force deciding on if we can wear a badge from another service... yeah... we're not high on their priority list.
Second... yeah... you'll get a no on the Ranger tab... but I expect eventually the CAB will be a yes.
Mind you... the folks at NHQ are trying to help... and are friendly. But, in all honesty... they are under staffed, and some things are low on their priority list. Not that they don't want to catch up on some of this stuff. Fact is... some if it is out of their hands. (Like the CAB.)
Quote from: Fifinella on April 11, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 03:29:24 PM
I had a buddy who was a LtCol in CAP and a AD Maj in USAF. Prior to his USAF career he was a Ranger. He used to wear his tab on the CAP blues shirt. A CAP member came up to him once and rudely said "You can't wear that" and his response was "take it off" ;)
"....In ancient Greece, the Spartan General Leonidas was charged with guarding a mountain pass with just 300 men to delay the invading million man Persian army. When the Persian leader Xerxes offered to spare his men if they gave up their arms, [saying "Send the arms / weapons"], Leonidas replied "Molon Lave" (can't get the Greek to post right), or "Come and get them."... http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php/topic,281.0.html
And the rest is History. ;D
I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?
Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. ;D
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 01:22:52 PM
There is a section in CAPM 39-1 that lists the military badges authorized to be worn on the CAP uniform. In the Air Force, Jump Wings fall under "aeronautical" badges, so you won't see jump wings, but you can wear them.
From AFI36-2903: "Aeronautical and space badges are worn above occupational and miscellaneous badges. When more than 1 aeronautical or space badge is worn, the second badge becomes
optional. The parachutist badge is not considered an aeronautical badge, however it does
take precedence over other badges."
From AFI11-402 "NOTE: A parachutist badge is not considered an aviation badge."
Sounds like jump wings are in a grey area in CAPM 39-1. I
assume CAP intended them to fall under "US Military Aeronautical Badges". I'm not taking them off. Molon Lave!
I'd say that it was earned the service to the country, and should have the right to display them proudly on a uniform the USAF AUX.
One thing that really gets me is that our uniforms are not held with as much regard in our Country as in othere countries.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?
Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. ;D
Because they are military awards and we are a military affiliated entity. BSA is not.
Quote from: Fifinella on April 11, 2007, 08:11:50 PMSounds like jump wings are in a grey area in CAPM 39-1. I assume CAP intended them to fall under "US Military Aeronautical Badges". I'm not taking them off. Molon Lave!
Jump wings are
not in a grey area. USAF does place the parachutist badge in the area of "aeronautical badges".
Welcome aboard Sgt. Pretty simple on this one.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?
You're serious right?
1) military-style & controlled unfirom considered by the military to be a military uniform.
2) Because it is an AF-style uniform & goes by the same rules as AF uniforms.
3) cause it's just the right thing to do, and you know it, so get over it.
Quotehow does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?
You understand ranger skills are EXTREMELY applicable to ground team training? Land nav, movemetn planning... come on, you know it instantly makes them one of the best GT instructors in the state.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 02:00:32 PM
I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms. Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.
I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.
The CAP rule is very simple. It says we do whatever the AF reg says & how it says it. That should be pretty clear. Where this gets complicated is the reg is outdated & includes a chart of examples that is not really current anymore. They can update the reg, and that may be happening here in the next couple years to cover all the recent changes & create some stability. However, if they do update it to align with the current AF reg then people's badges would have to come off rather than allowing you to put more things on. Susie Parker does her best to manage the situation when issues come up. If that's not who you talked to, it's supposed to be.
Now I don't necessarily think that's a good policy. I tend to think we should be fairly inclusive of other service items, however, the AF really wants you to ONLY wear the AF uniform plus CAP badges. They're in charge on that issue, so nothing really we can do about it.
What you can get away with in CAP, or ANG, or AD for that matter is a dif story.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?
Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. ;D
First, BSA is not a paramilitary organization. CAP is.
Its no different than when I switched from the Army to the Air National Guard, I kept most of my ribbons and badges. But even the Air Force, like CAP has limits, as there should be.
CAP = AF Auxiliary, thus we follow the AF's lead on uniform wear and guidance. There are some differences, like wing patches on the left shoulder, but that's part of the CAPness of CAP.
To me, it isn't about me having served my country. I did that back when I was a cadet. If CAP regs said you can't wear military badges/ribbons, I wouldn't. No big deal. In fact, I don't wear military ribbons in CAP. That would be out of control.
I'm even missing one or two:
(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/cap_mil_ribbons.gif)
But, since CAP does allow for the wear of military badges, I choose to wear 2 military badges and 2 CAP badges.
Above the pocket: Jump Wings and Master GTM Badge
On the pocket: OSD Badge (left) and Master CP Rating (right)
It has nothing to do with
being an Army Ranger or any job in the military. It demonstrates a broader knowledge of the military as a whole. Uniforms, regardless of Boy Scouts or the Marine Corps are a way of showing a) who you belong to, b) a little something about yourself, c) that you're part of a team. If no one wore their ribbons, military or CAP, or zero badges, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. But then why wear rank? Why wear uniforms? Some of it is heritage, some of it is just the regs.
When I was 13 I joined the boy scouts. But something was missing. CAP afforded me that missing link in my childhood that I loved so much; military, discipline, and respect.
Quote from: DNall on April 11, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.
The CAP rule is very simple. It says we do whatever the AF reg says & how it says it. That should be pretty clear.
Look at table 6-5, Page 116 in this link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/M39_1_chap_6_sec_B.pdf
This is as of 2005. I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date. In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA. Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
right, I mean the latest AF reg. It was changed to significantly reduce the number of other service badges that can be worn. The CAP reg says we'll follo wthat, whatever it is, then provides a chart of what was at the time authorized. That chart has yet to be updated to the newer AF rules.
Again, I'm not saying CAP shouldn't have more broad & open rules, but I don't get to make those rules, and in fact I don't think CAP does either.
Absolutely, and that's what I said on the first page here.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 05:00:14 PM
Air Force personnel may wear Army patches, i.e. unit patches and tabs only while assigned to Army units, such as TACPs. Once they leave that unit/duty and return to an Air Force unit, those patches have to come off, including combat patches.
I just didn't include things like pathfinder badges, air assault, etc. However, pretty much the only badges not authorized for wear on the AF uniform outside of being assigned to an Army unit are the Pathfinder and Air Assault badge.
And like you said, things like the Fire Protection shield and Security Police shield (different from the skill badges worn above the pocket) are only worn while performing those duties. Which means, you
can't wear them in CAP. I don't think anyone argued that one.
EDIT: I just referenced the AFI for USAF uniforms and it does [now] speficy that the CAB and CIB may only be worn while assigned to other services. That being said, they don't mention, or I haven't gotten that far yet, whether or not if you're prior service. Specifically with the CIB/CAB/CMB. All the people I saw that wore them were prior Army. I've also seen AF personnel volunteer to support the Army in OEF/OIF get a "ceremonial CAB" pinned on for their support. I'm wondering if it's those guys they're refering to that can only wear them while assigned to that service. Either way, for CAP, the CIB/CMB are still authorized.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.
JIm
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.
JIm
Good :) asking questions is a wonderful thing, as well as finding out what the reasoning is. If we don't know the answer, we try to find it out for you.
I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine ;)
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:18:45 PM
I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine ;)
Whats your rack look like?
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:18:45 PM
I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine ;)
That's what she said.
Funny thing though, I got like 3 ribbons simply for transfering to the ANG. My Expert Marksmanship Badge turned into a ribbon as did the 3 year service stripes. Then I had to take my Army Superior Unit award and put in with the rest of the ribbons, then I got the GWOT medal, which isn't shown. I also got an AF achievement medal since that image was put together. I know, a bit cheesey but I didn't do it.
Like I said, I wear my military ribbons on my military uniform and CAP ribbons on my CAP uniform. Well, service dress. Its a faux paux for AF [type] officers to wear ribbons on their blues shirts.
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 11, 2007, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:18:45 PM
I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine ;)
Whats your rack look like?
Not sure if you can see it without being a member or signing in, but there are profiles on military.com....
Just checked, I guess I can't link it.
But trust me, his fruit salad is something to be proud of.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 11, 2007, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:18:45 PM
I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine ;)
Whats your rack look like?
Not sure if you can see it without being a member or signing in, but there are profiles on military.com....
Just checked, I guess I can't link it.
But trust me, his fruit salad is something to be proud of.
Can you copy the pic, and post that?
Nah, its several different images.
Just picture like 9 ribbons, 2 unit awards, pathfinder badge, sr parachutist badge, EIB, CIB, air assault and a Ranger Tab. Oh, and while its not on their, Combat 3RD Ranger Bn Scroll.
Yeah, that is a nice fruit salad. I just have a couple CAP slices on mine.
So. I'm assuming that my Naval Parachutist Wings (Gold Wings) are not authorized with the CAP uniform but I can wear the basic jump wings?
Quote from: stillamarine on April 11, 2007, 09:54:36 PM
So. I'm assuming that my Naval Parachutist Wings (Gold Wings) are not authorized with the CAP uniform but I can wear the basic jump wings?
You know, I don't know. But we have a former HM2 who did his entire time with Force and he wears them. Hard to see, but check out his picture:
(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/awards_400x270_400x270.jpg)
But I'd venture to say someone, somewhere would tell you to wear the basic Army parachutist badge vs. the Navy Jump Wings. YMMV. CAP folks are permitted to wear Navy aviator wings and those are gold, not sure why you couldn't wear the gold jump wings.
Little Salad. Most of it came from being the first in the chow line.
(//)
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 10:05:58 PM
Little Salad. Most of it came from being the first in the chow line.
Really, they have a ribbon for being at the head of the chow line?
;)
Only if you can do it every day for a month. They call it the ARCOM
BTW,
Don't let the rack fool you. Three of those are CAP, Three of those were just for being there, two were for going there, one for helping a bunch of people while I was there, two because my unit was there with me, and one for leaving there. After doing the math, the only one I worked for was the ARCOM.
Like I always say, the badge doesn't make the man, it's the experience that earned it that makes the man.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 10:43:26 PM
Like I always say, the badge doesn't make the man, it's the experience that earned it that makes the man.
Concur.
The only ribbons I had to work for/earn, are the Army Achievement and Joint Comm. Even a couple of the AAMs are questionable.
Funny how it all seemed so important when I was a buck private. I'd trade it all to get some of those guys back.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 09:00:11 PM
Absolutely, and that's what I said on the first page here.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 05:00:14 PM
Air Force personnel may wear Army patches, i.e. unit patches and tabs only while assigned to Army units, such as TACPs. Once they leave that unit/duty and return to an Air Force unit, those patches have to come off, including combat patches.
I just didn't include things like pathfinder badges, air assault, etc. However, pretty much the only badges not authorized for wear on the AF uniform outside of being assigned to an Army unit are the Pathfinder and Air Assault badge.
Don't quote me on this, cause I'm not the expert, Ms. Parker is, but I believe CIB/CAB/CMB would be in that newly not auth category, as much as I may disagree with it. Basically review the AF reg & if it looks like you could wear it if you were inter-service tranfering to the AF then you should also be able to wear it on CAP in the same spots, if not then don't do it & ask for clarification.
QuoteEDIT: I just referenced the AFI for USAF uniforms and it does [now] speficy that the CAB and CIB may only be worn while assigned to other services.
That being said, they don't mention, or I haven't gotten that far yet, whether or not if you're prior service. Specifically with the CIB/CAB/CMB. All the people I saw that wore them were prior Army. I've also seen AF personnel volunteer to support the Army in OEF/OIF get a "ceremonial CAB" pinned on for their support. I'm wondering if it's those guys they're refering to that can only wear them while assigned to that service. Either way, for CAP, the CIB/CMB are still authorized.
No I think they're mostly talking about TACP, WTX units, AFSOC, etc. If it isn't in your file you better not be wearing it is all I'd say to them. As far as I can tell, there is no regard to prior service. Other service badges are treated like foreign awards... you know like when you jump with brits & they (formally not ceremonially) award you their wings, but you can't wear them unless attached to one of their units or attending a state dinner at their embasy or something like that. That's my understanding of how the CIB, air assualt, etc are treated.
Not to make this more complicated, but some things are treated a little wierd in this conversion. For instance you can wear any service aeronautical rating, but if you transfered to AF they'd convert wings to the AF version even if you wouldn't be serving in that capacity. So we can wear Army wings even though you couldn't wear them in the AF cause they'd convert to AF wings, but you don't get to do that being prior & joining CAP.
Gist of this whole thing is call Susie Parker & what she says is law. If you don't like it then take it up with command to put a req thru to AF to broaden the rules.
I'm actually disgusted by some of the posts given to this member. I have been a member of CAP for over 34 years and the Air Force for over 20 years. CAP has always been about 15 years behind on uniforms and badges. To remind some of our membership we are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, therefore we should refer to AFI 36-2903 for guidance. If the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated? How can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?
And speaking from painful experience, when the Air Force will go to ABU's this year and we contact National and ask when will we go to this uniform the answer will be "never, we will always wear BDU's". Historical note: When the AF went to BDU's I was told by National that we would never stop wearing the OD green uniforms.
In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AMIf the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?
Actually, the latest full edition is only two years old, still new in the CAP universe. How often does it get real, formal updates? That "a whole nother story".
I was just reminded that during my 2 years as a cadet, we wore greens lol.
As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that. I already know that my bubble is authorized.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AM
f the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?
Actually, CAPM 39-1 isn't all too far off. It's not even 2 years old right now.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AMHow can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?
Did anyone really deny anyone the right to wear their badges? Hey, if it's a CAP reg it's a CAP reg. Do you blow off any reg in the Air Force you disagree with?
I think maybe one guy
asked why people should be allowed to wear insignia/ribbons from other services, regardless of how they earned them. He simply asked. Although I wouldn't have asked such a question, that doesn't make him wrong. No one on this thread has insulted anyone. We're discussing regs. Some of us don't agree with them, and that's cool. But whether we like them or not, they're the regs.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AMAnd speaking from painful experience, when the Air Force will go to ABU's this year and we contact National and ask when will we go to this uniform the answer will be "never, we will always wear BDU's". Historical note: When the AF went to BDU's I was told by National that we would never stop wearing the OD green uniforms.
Personally, I'm not going to contact NHQ about switching to the ABU. I experienced the same "historical" process that you did. I didn't care too much then and I don't care too much now. BDUs or ABUs, I'll wear them both. I don't really think anyone was debating that topic, but I guess we could if you'd like.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AMIn summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.
Grow up? Is there someone in particular that you're speaking to? I have to say, I think it has been a reasonable dialogue thus far. A few disagreements but that's normal. I think for the most part people here are grown up and recognize those who have been awarded medals and badges by competent military authority.
We're cool, right? Just feel like I sensed a bit of hostility in your post. But for all I know you could have been smiling with a beer in your hand. If that's the case, give me one.
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AM
...we should refer to AFI 36-2903 for guidance. If the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?
How can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?
Those two statments are conflicting!!
2903 says
NO rigger/pathfinder/AA/CIB/CAB/CMB/combat jump wings, almost no navy badges, etc. The Air Force is rather specific on this point. What they've said in the newest reg is either it can convert to an AF badge or you can't wear it. The only exception is if you are on perm duty & physicially serving with another branch than you can wear SOME stuff awrded by them, but when you return to the AF for 180days or more, even temporarily for a school but while still attached to the Army, then you MUST take the other stuff off.
Now, CAP is behind the times on that. 39-1 is written from the older AFI, in which you could wear other service badges if earned in the other service or on duty with them, and that it was perm. That's where that table in the back comes from. If they ever update 39-1, it will require them to dump that & de-authorize lots of other service badges. They should legally be required to do that now, but the AF hasn't called them on it.
QuoteIn summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.
I'm with ya, but the reg isn't. I'd be all for asking AF to auth broader badge & ribbon wear, but that's not my call, and what's authorized or not isn't up to CAP either.
Quote from: stillamarine on April 12, 2007, 02:33:22 AM
As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that. I already know that my bubble is authorized.
Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.
Quote from: DNall on April 12, 2007, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on April 12, 2007, 02:33:22 AM
As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that. I already know that my bubble is authorized.
Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.
If they do revert to the AF wings then I am going to assume it would be the AF Senior Jump Wings with the star, seeing as that is basically what the Gold Wings are for the Navy and Marine Corps.
Quote from: stillamarine on April 12, 2007, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: DNall on April 12, 2007, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on April 12, 2007, 02:33:22 AM
As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that. I already know that my bubble is authorized.
Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.
If they do revert to the AF wings then I am going to assume it would be the AF Senior Jump Wings with the star, seeing as that is basically what the Gold Wings are for the Navy and Marine Corps.
Not exactly. My understanding is, and may be wrong, that to qualify for Navy/Marine jump wings, you only need to satisfy 5 additional jumps. That isn't the same as a senior parachutist, who must participated in a minimum of 30 jumps to include 15 jumps with combat equipment; two night jumps, one of which is as jumpmaster of a stick; two mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem; graduated from the Jumpmaster Course; and served on jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 24 months.
I'm sure that basic parachutist wing could be authorized in certain situations. Th AFI 11-402 states "Members may lose the right to wear the parachutist badge by refusing to jump or requesting removal from jump status with less than 18 months of jump duty." I would say that unless someone refused to jump they could wear the basic.
Jim
Your right that it only requires 5 additional, varying types of jumps. BUT it is classified as the senior class wings. Now if the AF or Army require me to have 30 jumps to qualify for there lil star on there lead sled, well I got that to....times about 7 or 8.
[darn], Tim. You must be 4" shorter for it too! I got washed up at 62 fixed and rotary. I AM 1" shorter than when I enlisted and I'm not that old.
It takes 65 for masert Parachutist with some other qualifications:
Participated in 65 jumps to include 25 jumps with combat equipment; four night jumps, one of which is as a jumpmaster of a stick; five mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, a separate company/battery, or organic staff of a regiment size or larger; graduated from the Jumpmaster Course; and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
If you meet that then, you earned it.
I was three jumps short but, I only have three MASSTAC. My knees are pretty shot these days. Go figure.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.
JIm
SGT Savage - I served in 3rd Battalion for 8 years in total and have brought with me a variety of badges, some that I can wear and some that I cannot.
My experience so far has been mixed, but in a nutshell: the cadets are intrigued by the experience and crave any knowledge of active military service and many are there to get a jumpstart on their military careers. About half the seniors, mostly those who are prior service are pleased that someone has joined that can bring some additional skills to the organization. Then the other half are scared poopless that they will be de-legitimized by someone with a little more experience than them - militarily. I have actually been told by a sitting Group Commander that the best thing I can do is forget everything about being in the Army as it has no relation to CAP.
I struggle everyday with my commitment based upon my short experience in CAP, but my hope is that when my sons are old enough to join it is an opportunity to share my service to my nation and set that example.
Just a thought, I wonder if there would be enough support from former active military, rangers, etc to set up a group for us to communicate among another. How many would support, many of these questions could be answered about prior service badges, PME, etc?
K
Quote from: Rangersigo on April 12, 2007, 02:59:46 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 11, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.
JIm
SGT Savage - I served in 3rd Battalion for 8 years in total and have brought with me a variety of badges, some that I can wear and some that I cannot.
My experience so far has been mixed, but in a nutshell: the cadets are intrigued by the experience and crave any knowledge of active military service and many are there to get a jumpstart on their military careers. About half the seniors, mostly those who are prior service are pleased that someone has joined that can bring some additional skills to the organization. Then the other half are scared poopless that they will be de-legitimized by someone with a little more experience than them - militarily. I have actually been told by a sitting Group Commander that the best thing I can do is forget everything about being in the Army as it has no relation to CAP.
I struggle everyday with my commitment based upon my short experience in CAP, but my hope is that when my sons are old enough to join it is an opportunity to share my service to my nation and set that example.
Just a thought, I wonder if there would be enough support from former active military, rangers, etc to set up a group for us to communicate among another. How many would support, many of these questions could be answered about prior service badges, PME, etc?
K
there are a couple things you can do. Start a forum on here and you can also use the NHQ conference call service (free) where you could set up monthly meetings to discuss issues. You can also create a Yahoo group as well.
Let me be a little more specific, I did not mean to come across as antangonistic or upset at the lack of maturity I see throughout our organization. I am a member for one reason and one reason only, I support the cadet program. A majority of our cadets will go to some form of military(I know, not all) and we are doing a great disservice to them by not authorizing senior member officers to wear what they legitamatly earned from the Armed Forces. AFI 36-2903 is a guide, pure and simple, a guide. Since we are a volunteer corporation our members come from all the branches so the correct way to fix this situation is to take the big view and amend our CAPM 39-1. The entire manual is still severly outdated in pictures and content. Consider that all the Armed Forces issue new badges and ribbons every year, there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
Quote from: LtCol White on April 11, 2007, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 11, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...
Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB." So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?
While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?
Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. ;D
Because they are military awards and we are a military affiliated entity. BSA is not.
The BSA was just an example. My point is...different organization with its own awards and decorations, why do people insist on being "allowed" to wear everything they've ever earned on their uniform? Even the the military, there are things that don't cross branches...
Even on this website, you see the very frequent posts "CAP IS NOT THE AF." Most people assume that when they look at a uniform, the things you have on that uniform are what you earned in THAT organization. Wearing a Combat Infantry Badge on a CAP uniform, which is quite recognizable, at a glace implies that it was earned during service to CAP. How well does that speak to the "non-combat" roles of CAP to the general public.
I can and do appreciate the sacrifices that our military members (past, present, and future) make(made) on a daily basis, but CAP is a completely different entity from DoD, with different missions, volunteer CIVILIAN organization.
Why not allow them on the CAP distinctive uniforms? You already have a large chunk of your membership wearing them anyway...
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 03:27:42 PM
there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...
This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all. Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes? Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 02:50:08 PM
[darn], Tim. You must be 4" shorter for it too! I got washed up at 62 fixed and rotary. I AM 1" shorter than when I enlisted and I'm not that old.
It takes 65 for masert Parachutist with some other qualifications:
Participated in 65 jumps to include 25 jumps with combat equipment; four night jumps, one of which is as a jumpmaster of a stick; five mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, a separate company/battery, or organic staff of a regiment size or larger; graduated from the Jumpmaster Course; and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
If you meet that then, you earned it.
I was three jumps short but, I only have three MASSTAC. My knees are pretty shot these days. Go figure.
LOL Actually 2 inches! I enlisted at 68" and when I had my physical this year for work I was a whopping 66"!
I have plenty of jumps with gear, and plenty of night jumps. But I don't think I've ever done a mass jump like you describe. I think the closest thing I've done to a mass jump would be company sized. We just don't operate that big. Heck I'd think you would have to get every jump qual'd Marine in the Corps for that kinda thing!
I love to jump it's the ultimate experience, but after enough of them it's just another part of the jump. I jump irregularly now that I'm out with my next planned one next month for my buddy's GF's college graduation.
It all comes back to the experience, not the badge. I believe that a system is being developed to draw on the experiences of prior service NCOs; to fully utilize that knowledge base as a training aid and as a counsel for the officers they serve. That is a big reason for me trading my butter bars in for stripes.
I like the idea of a group of individuals with like experiences that can work together toward a common goal, in support of the organization.
rangersigo,
When did you serve? Did I know you?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 12, 2007, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 03:27:42 PM
there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...
This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all. Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes? Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?
Maybe it makes sense to let 39-1dictate wear of the CAP specific uniform and leave the AF style uniforms generic ( name tape wing patch, position/style of CAP insignia...) and reference the AFI for all military accouterments. What does that do to the badges? It may very well disqualify all other military badges. Though the rule may be that if the AF allows it ever, the CAP can wear it.
Quote from: Fifinella on April 11, 2007, 08:11:50 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 01:22:52 PM
There is a section in CAPM 39-1 that lists the military badges authorized to be worn on the CAP uniform. In the Air Force, Jump Wings fall under "aeronautical" badges, so you won't see jump wings, but you can wear them.
From AFI36-2903: "Aeronautical and space badges are worn above occupational and miscellaneous badges. When more than 1 aeronautical or space badge is worn, the second badge becomes
optional. The parachutist badge is not considered an aeronautical badge, however it does
take precedence over other badges."
From AFI11-402 "NOTE: A parachutist badge is not considered an aviation badge."
Sounds like jump wings are in a grey area in CAPM 39-1. I assume CAP intended them to fall under "US Military Aeronautical Badges". I'm not taking them off. Molon Lave!
At one time I too wore my Jump Wings, then I switched to my GT badge. After reviewing the latest 39-1 table 6-5 I noticed that JW's are not listed. I too wonder if they inadvertently left them out?
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 03:47:10 PM
Quote from: Fifinella on April 11, 2007, 08:11:50 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 01:22:52 PM
There is a section in CAPM 39-1 that lists the military badges authorized to be worn on the CAP uniform. In the Air Force, Jump Wings fall under "aeronautical" badges, so you won't see jump wings, but you can wear them.
From AFI36-2903: "Aeronautical and space badges are worn above occupational and miscellaneous badges. When more than 1 aeronautical or space badge is worn, the second badge becomes
optional. The parachutist badge is not considered an aeronautical badge, however it does
take precedence over other badges."
From AFI11-402 "NOTE: A parachutist badge is not considered an aviation badge."
Sounds like jump wings are in a grey area in CAPM 39-1. I assume CAP intended them to fall under "US Military Aeronautical Badges". I'm not taking them off. Molon Lave!
At one time I too wore my Jump Wings, then I switched to my GT badge. After reviewing the latest 39-1 table 6-5 I noticed that JW's are not listed. I too wonder if they inadvertently left them out?
Airborne wings are covered in AFI 11-401. They act as an Aeronautical badge of a non-Aeronautical rating. Kinda confusing but what isn't these days?
Seems like some AFI reg's that do not pertain to CAP are being quoted. As per the National website only the AFI 10-2701 and 10-2702 are listed. Maybe those are the only reg's we as CAP members should be referencing.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 02:50:08 PM
mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
HOOAH!! 82nd Airborne Division, B co 1/505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) '89-'92
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 04:02:49 PM
Seems like some AFI reg's that do not pertain to CAP are being quoted. As per the National website only the AFI 10-2701 and 10-2702 are listed. Maybe those are the only reg's we as CAP members should be referencing.
Actually, 39-1 says :"Only those badges authorized for wear on the USAF uniform are authorized on the CAP uniform"
and "on the BDU as prescribed by the US Air Force."
Though it doesn't reference the AFI by name, it does direct us to the Air Force standard.
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 02:50:08 PM
mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
HOOAH!! 82nd Airborne Division, B co 1/505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) '89-'92
Mass Tac = a boring ride followed by a tight body position, resulting in trying like hell to not get your wind stolen, or land on anyone in the 25 seconds you have to acctually think. Absolute chaos!! I miss it, a little :'(
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 02:50:08 PM
mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
HOOAH!! 82nd Airborne Division, B co 1/505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) '89-'92
Mass Tac = a boring ride followed by a tight body position, resulting in trying like hell to not get your wind stolen, or land on anyone in the 25 seconds you have to actually think. Absolute chaos!! I miss it, a little :'(
Ha Ha Ha. You bring back memories!
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on April 12, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 02:50:08 PM
mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or larger, and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.
HOOAH!! 82nd Airborne Division, B co 1/505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) '89-'92
Mass Tac = a boring ride followed by a tight body position, resulting in trying like hell to not get your wind stolen, or land on anyone in the 25 seconds you have to actually think. Absolute chaos!! I miss it, a little :'(
Ha Ha Ha. You bring back memories!
Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aicraft? I totally understand getting out of a bad one. . .
If they made good airplanes then they wouldn't have made good parachutes :D
Quote from: stillamarine on April 12, 2007, 04:38:10 PM
If they made good airplanes then they wouldn't have made good parachutes :D
So long as it's doing what it's supposed to be doing, its a good aircraft. after that, well, you know. . . .
Poor choice of words, a team at national would only screw things up more. Let's face, we have a corporate entity that runs our organization that is poorly represented by the membership and this topic is outside of this email thread. The best solution would be to create small but diverse groups across CAP to recommend timely changes to all publications based on input from the US Air Force. And at the risk of repeating myself we are the Auxiliary US Air Force, officially part of the US Air Force, and while technically a civilian nonprofit corporation and for better or worse the public sees us at being part of the military despite all the bells and whistles we place on our BDU's....!! Don't even get me started on US Civil Air Patrol...!! LOL
Quote from: Rangersigo on April 12, 2007, 02:59:46 PM
Just a thought, I wonder if there would be enough support from former active military, rangers, etc to set up a group for us to communicate among another. How many would support, many of these questions could be answered about prior service badges, PME, etc?
Hell, I volunteered a couple of times before in life, guess this is once that won't get me hurt - count me in.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 04:12:27 PM
[Mass Tac = a boring ride followed by a tight body position, resulting in trying like hell to not get your wind stolen, or land on anyone in the 25 seconds you have to acctually think. Absolute chaos!! I miss it, a little :'(
Everything except Green Ramp!
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 12, 2007, 04:37:21 PM
Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aicraft? I totally understand getting out of a bad one. . .
Everything on that aircraft - except the parachutes - was made by the lowest bidder
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 04:41:17 PMAnd at the risk of repeating myself we are the Auxiliary US Air Force, officially part of the US Air Force, and while technically a civilian nonprofit corporation and for better or worse the public sees us at being part of the military despite all the bells and whistles we place on our BDU's....!!
Sadly, the law and our Statement of Work with USAF makes it clear that the above is a bit of an exaggeration - we are only the Auxiliary of USAF some of the time. Hence our current state of confusion......
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on April 12, 2007, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 12, 2007, 04:37:21 PM
Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aicraft? I totally understand getting out of a bad one. . .
Everything on that aircraft - except the parachutes - was made by the lowest bidder
Good point. I'm still not jumping, though. :)
Quote from: JC004 on April 12, 2007, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on April 12, 2007, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 12, 2007, 04:37:21 PM
Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aicraft? I totally understand getting out of a bad one. . .
Everything on that aircraft - except the parachutes - was made by the lowest bidder
Good point. I'm still not jumping, though. :)
Me either, not unless I have to in order to save my skin.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 12, 2007, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 03:27:42 PM
there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...
This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all. Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes? Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?
Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?
Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)
Quote from: NIN on April 12, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 12, 2007, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 03:27:42 PM
there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...
This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all. Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes? Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?
Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?
Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)
Probably would confuse too many sheeple. Plus, we like to make our own confusion. We want to have a manual plus a few dozen change letters just to drive them nuts.
Quote from: JC004 on April 12, 2007, 08:14:59 PM
Quote from: NIN on April 12, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 12, 2007, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 03:27:42 PM
there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.
We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...
This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all. Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes? Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?
Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?
Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)
Probably would confuse too many sheeple. Plus, we like to make our own confusion. We want to have a manual plus a few dozen change letters just to drive them nuts.
Thats after we write conflicting manuals to start with.
NOT SO HARD to update 39-1 as they made all of the changes since 2005. I am guessing here, but I am sure the "hard" copy or master copy is on someones computer at NHQ. Everytime they want to change something in the manual or add to it, assign that task out to one of the paid staffers, give them a week and some free donuts and have them create the new manual. THEN produce a letter on line saying "go read and download the new 39-1. They already took pictures for the interim change letters, and wrote down the instructions. Not that much more to add it to the actual manual. I have worked that area before, and the most time consuming aspect is searching the entire manual for references back to something you deleted.
The whole thing is only 130 pages, use a search program to find the word or phrases you want to take out. Example "search for Senior Member. Then use the replace button to make Senior Member magically turn into Officer.
Here is a better idea.....contract the work out to anyone who wants to take on the job. They could easily say "hey CAP volunteers, who would like to help us update 39-1".
Just my thoughts!
QuoteEverything on that aircraft - except the parachutes - was made by the lowest bidder
By the way, all of us are low bid also.
Just a thought..............
Jim
Tags - MIKE
MY great uncle was one of the Glider Troops the night before D-Day... too bad they dont still have Gliders. I dont think he was ever in CAP but he wore the badge front and center on his VFW cover. ::)
When I was at Ramstein, I saw an Air Force SP wearing a Ranger tab on his BDU's. The fact that he also had an EIB and Jump Wings probably explains it. I've seen quite a few Air Force Officers and EM's wearing a Ranger tab on their blues at the AFA Conventions.
Quote from: DNall on April 11, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 02:00:32 PM
I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms. Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.
I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.
But the AFI DOES say that you CAN WEAR the badges.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 08:39:31 PM
[This is as of 2005. I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date. In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA. Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
Do Government Contractors get the OSD badge as well, like the Civil Service people do?
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AM
In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.
EXACTLY
Quote from: Hammer on April 13, 2007, 04:06:48 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2007, 08:39:31 PM
[This is as of 2005. I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date. In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA. Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
Do Government Contractors get the OSD badge as well, like the Civil Service people do?
In order to wear an award or badge, you have to have competent orders awarding you said badge.
As for civilians wearing awards they've earned while working for the military, I believe that would be a whole different can of worms. We had a member in my last wing who had never served in the military but wore some sort of Unit Award above all of her CAP ribbons because she was a civilian working for an office that recieved the award.
There are civilian service awards for civil service employees, but CAP does not identify them as being authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.
The OSD badge is a military award. I've seen civilians wear an OSD badge lapel pin on their suit, but chances are they are former military, but that's just a guess.
Quote from: Hammer on April 13, 2007, 04:16:00 PM
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on April 12, 2007, 02:17:00 AM
In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.
EXACTLY
What is the point of saying this? Are you just saying "grow up people" in general? Or are you just angrily speaking to CAP's uniform board? No one on this forum board has said anything about
not recognizing peoples' achievements in the military.
We have, however, discussed what is and isn't identified in CAP regulations as being authorized for wear on CAP uniforms, which may or may not be the same as the Air Force Instruction.
And just because you see someone wearing something, i.e. a Ranger Tab on their Air Force BDUS, doesn't mean the Air Force is cool with it. It just means that they did it anyway. While I was at a PJ squadron a lot of guys wore Ranger Tabs, even around home station base. No one cared and no one questioned them. Not a big deal.
QuoteAnd just because you see someone wearing something, i.e. a Ranger Tab on their Air Force BDUS, doesn't mean the Air Force is cool with it. It just means that they did it anyway. While I was at a PJ squadron a lot of guys wore Ranger Tabs, even around home station base. No one cared and no one questioned them. Not a big deal.
Is that like the CAV guys wearing stetsons and and the other junk that was phased out of the army 100 years ago? I remember at Ft Sill, the custom (at least when I was there) were for the Officers to wear the old style Branch Insignia. The ones from the late 1860's. As soon as you left though, you threw the current crossed cannons back on. I see no problem wearing something that is tolerated up the chain of command. When it comes down to it, all the individual service member will be told is to remove said device, and his superiors will get the "formal counseling".
Just got my order in from Spur Name Tapes 1800nametapes.com and they look identical to the standard military badges.
Got a few sets of white on ultramarine blue Airborne and a few of Air Assault. Again, perfectly done and only at $2 a set. nametags4u.com sent the worst excuse for both badges at more than double the price and those went into the trash.
Will post a picture later when I get some time.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 13, 2007, 05:03:01 PM
I see no problem wearing something that is tolerated up the chain of command. When it comes down to it, all the individual service member will be told is to remove said device, and his superiors will get the "formal counseling".
I agree.
I've always said,
you need to know the rules before you break them. So when you get called on said violation, don't get your panties in bunch because someone's coming down on you. Smile, say "roger that", and drive on.
Like at work. I carry a tac-light on my pistol. Why? Because I work nights and it makes sense. Our department's regs say
modifications to department issued weapons is not authorized. In my mind, I'm not modifying, I'm temporarily adding a feature. Wrong or right, I'll take my chances. My watch commander and sergeant don't have a problem with it and the brass never see me at night. I draw my weapon an average of once a month so yes, the light is practical, not just tactical.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 12, 2007, 03:31:40 PM
The BSA was just an example. My point is...different organization with its own awards and decorations, why do people insist on being "allowed" to wear everything they've ever earned on their uniform? Even the the military, there are things that don't cross branches...
Even on this website, you see the very frequent posts "CAP IS NOT THE AF." Most people assume that when they look at a uniform, the things you have on that uniform are what you earned in THAT organization. Wearing a Combat Infantry Badge on a CAP uniform, which is quite recognizable, at a glace implies that it was earned during service to CAP. How well does that speak to the "non-combat" roles of CAP to the general public.
I can and do appreciate the sacrifices that our military members (past, present, and future) make(made) on a daily basis, but CAP is a completely different entity from DoD, with different missions, volunteer CIVILIAN organization.
Why not allow them on the CAP distinctive uniforms? You already have a large chunk of your membership wearing them anyway...
CAP is chartered by congress to be a military based organization, and as the AFAux, is very much part of the AF. The org conducts real military missions at the direction of the military, and while doing so its members are legally designated as emplyees of the AF and by federal and international law as military combatants.
So basicially, every mil badge that the AF auth on their uniforms should be authorized on the CAP uniform you wear while continuning to serve the DoD. They are authorized on teh AF uniform because it belongs to the AF, and not the corp alternatives because they are not as far as the AF is concerned military uniforms. That's the view of the AF, if you don't like it then take it up with them & best of luck to you.
Here ya go. The detail is a bit hard to see in the image, but I assure you the air assault badge looks identical to the ones vangaurd makes for the military.
(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/abn_aab.jpg)
I think SSG Savage is one of a few people that was interested in white on blue military badges from Spur Name Tapes. I got these in less than a week and at $2 a piece.
Hooah? Hooah.
If you are authorized to wear the Army badge, why would you have to have it converted to white/blue. Why not just wear the Army sub-dued version. I don't think 39-1 says it has to be this way? Maybe it does...
On the other hand, if you convert it to blue and white, are you now in violation of 39-1 because it becomes a non-standard award?
Just wondering?
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on April 12, 2007, 03:41:03 PM
It all comes back to the experience, not the badge. I believe that a system is being developed to draw on the experiences of prior service NCOs; to fully utilize that knowledge base as a training aid and as a counsel for the officers they serve. That is a big reason for me trading my butter bars in for stripes.
I like the idea of a group of individuals with like experiences that can work together toward a common goal, in support of the organization.
rangersigo,
When did you serve? Did I know you?
I was never there at the same time, served 88-90 enlisted, again mid-93 to 94, went to OCS, and again 2001-2002.
Enlisted I was in C/3-75, then at Battalion as an officer...
39-1 doesn't say that it has to be one or the other. It says military badges can be regular air force subdued. However, I prefer to keep uniformity on my CAP uniform, just personal preference.
In my last squadron we had something like 8 people with jump wings so we thought it would look cool to all be the same, white on blue.
If you were planning to wear a military badge and CAP badge, I think it would look better to have both of them look the same as well, instead of one subdued and one white/blue. YMMV.
I agree that the uniformity looks better. New to CAP I wear my Army awards and have different ones on all three uniforms.
Just wondering if converting them is actually "legal". I know the AAFEs offers the parachutist, halo, and air assault in the blue, but what about converting the CIB, Pathfinder, etc?
Just a thought?
Wish I had a picture of it, but a friend of mine wore ABN, AAS, EIB on his CAP uniform. Had an EIB made by www.nametags4u.com and it looked awesome.
I've actually seen a member at National Headquarters sporting white/blue Master Blaster either in the uniform manual or some CAP publication. Doesn't make it right, but I'm quite sure that it's not only allowed, but probably encouraged. Been doing it for 15 years and if anything I've gotten compliments on the white/blue vs any negative comments.
I actually have a HALO badge in white on blue, see if I can find it.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 13, 2007, 05:03:01 PM
Is that like the CAV guys wearing stetsons and and the other junk that was phased out of the army 100 years ago? I remember at Ft Sill, the custom (at least when I was there) were for the Officers to wear the old style Branch Insignia. The ones from the late 1860's. As soon as you left though, you threw the current crossed cannons back on. I see no problem wearing something that is tolerated up the chain of command. When it comes down to it, all the individual service member will be told is to remove said device, and his superiors will get the "formal counseling".
When I was in Korea in the 80s, I went over to Osan AB and had a gent make up a flight suit nametag that had my crew wings, my name, rank & branch, and the front view of a Chinook on one side of it. Really high-speed embroidery (and I'll be ding-dang'ed if I can find that SOB now..), looked great. Black name tag, white wings & text, OD Chinook with black blades and black outline... It just looked nice..
I come cruising into the platoon office one Monday with this bad boy on my flight jacket. My platoon sergeant takes a double take, says "#@^%& Ninness, why you gotta go screw it up for the rest of us? Where'd you have that done at?" By the end of the next week, fully 2/3 of the company was sporting these nametags, including the CO...
If you can't beat 'em, get 'em to join you.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2007, 09:11:43 PM
I actually have a HALO badge in white on blue, see if I can find it.
Grrr, 6 static lines and 524 freefalls and I can't wear 'em...
;D
Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2007, 09:02:58 PM
39-1 doesn't say that it has to be one or the other. It says military badges can be regular air force subdued. However, I prefer to keep uniformity on my CAP uniform, just personal preference.
In my last squadron we had something like 8 people with jump wings so we thought it would look cool to all be the same, white on blue.
If you were planning to wear a military badge and CAP badge, I think it would look better to have both of them look the same as well, instead of one subdued and one white/blue. YMMV.
Plus, I've been wearing "white-on-OD" crew wings since I got off active duty in 1989.. I never preferred the "mix-and-match" look of subdued crew wings, so I trolled the gun shows and military collectors shows for old "white-on-OD" crew wings... my stash was running low and I was getting ready to setup a new set of uniforms, and I decided "Hey, what the hell, lets get some white-on-ultramarine ones done..."
Now I'll look all high speed and stuff. My XO wears AF crew wings and he dug up a set of the old skool white-on-ultramarines from the 70s... His BDUs are the shizzle...
NIN:
I also have some white on blue ACB's if you need some.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on April 15, 2007, 05:07:45 PM
I also have some white on blue ACB's if you need some.
Actually:
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/nin_uni.JPG)
Took that shot last night after I got done going crazy with the sewing machine.
Need to stitch up the flag & squadron patch yet, but those are next. Needed to track down my yellow thread.
Quote from: NIN on April 16, 2007, 12:59:50 AM
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/nin_uni.JPG)
Looking forward to getting that set of wings myself. Nine and a half weeks to go.... :)