as the topic says... that's my question. I'm going to assume that's also the wing CC's discretion? Even if a member never plans on being a commander?
There is currently no correlation between grade and command or staff posting in CAP.
Promotion to the grade of Captain is at the discretion of the Group or Wing CC (if wing has no groups),
based on the completion of the respective requirements as outline in 35-5 and "fitness for promotion"
in the eyes of the approver.
35-5 specifically prohibits any additional "objective" criteria such as a specific staff posting, additional
service, or command time in the consideration for promotion.
"Fitness for promotion" is subjective to the approver, however if he says " because you've never been a CC
I won't promote you" or similar, that would be grounds for a sustainable complaint.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 06:59:11 PM
There is currently no correlation between grade and command or staff posting in CAP.
Promotion to the grade of Captain is at the discretion of the Group or Wing CC (if wing has no groups),
based on the completion of the respective requirements as outline in 35-5 and "fitness for promotion"
in the eyes of the approver.
35-5 specifically prohibits any additional "objective" criteria such as a specific staff posting, additional
service, or command time in the consideration for promotion.
"Fitness for promotion" is subjective to the approver, however if he says " because you've never been a CC
I won't promote you" or similar, that would be grounds for a sustainable complaint.
In aviation, captain = pilot so in my experience lots of people in CAP is happy to be a Captain forever. 8)
I wasn't even planning on promoting to Captain, but I got bugged so I figured why not and then here I can't even promote because wing says so
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
I wasn't even planning on promoting to Captain, but I got bugged so I figured why not and then here I can't even promote because wing says so
Have you completed Level II? Are you an active member?
If you've met the requirements in CAPR 35-9(?), and are going for a Duty Performance promotion, have your squadron put it in through eServices. If it gets kicked back by wing, they are supposed to provide a reason for the denial.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
I wasn't even planning on promoting to Captain, but I got bugged so I figured why not and then here I can't even promote because wing says so
Have you completed Level II? Are you an active member?
Yes I completed lvl 2 when I was active and my promotion request to wing was supposedly submitted but was not approved due to lack of leadership
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:33:31 PM
If you've met the requirements in CAPR 35-9(?), and are going for a Duty Performance promotion, have your squadron put it in through eServices. If it gets kicked back by wing, they are supposed to provide a reason for the denial.
I thought only the unit cc can only do that through eservices, and supposedly the wing vice commander gave me a reason rather than the squadron commander because the squadron commander wouldn't even tell me that I wasn't being promoted in spite of the fact that I invited people who I knew to come see me promote and one of those people who came ended up knowing that I wasn't promoting that night
"Eligible" does not equal "promoted", nothing is automatic and if you're having issues with your commander,
then it's reasonable to be promoted.
We can't speak to what may have been promised, or not, but the process is clear.
Once a member's respective PD level is recorded in eServices, and assuming TIG is completed,
the 3 flags will go green and your Commander or designate will be able to submit you for a "duty promotion".
Until and only if he submits the Duty Promotion though eServices will the next higher HQ even be aware of
the request, let along be able to act on it. (This assume this was recent, push back 3-4 years and
it could have been done on paper, but the process is the same).
With that said, if you are going to 000, no one is going to promote you, and there's no point in doing so because
you are going to be inactive. Nor should you assume that if you find a new unit, even right away, that
the new CC will be any more inclined to promote you.
I can't imagine why you would think you were to be promoted when it wasn't in the system.
There were a few times when I popped in on someone and surprised them with a promotion
they were nto expecting, or weren't' sure was going to happen, in those cases I clicked the
boxes in real time, but absent that, there's no real place for the confusion unless your CC
actually told you he'd submitted it and then didn't, but even in that case, submitted by your unit CC,
the next higher HQ still has to approve.
I've seen that take anywhere from "less then 1 minute" to "years".
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:33:31 PM
If you've met the requirements in CAPR 35-9(?), and are going for a Duty Performance promotion, have your squadron put it in through eServices. If it gets kicked back by wing, they are supposed to provide a reason for the denial.
While the KB suggests it as a best practice, there is no requirement in the regs that a denial be explained, or
a submission even acted upon.
Promotion requests can sit, with no action, indefinitely, which I think is very unfair to the membership.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 10:03:41 PM
"Eligible" does not equal "promoted", nothing is automatic and if you're having issues with your commander,
then it's reasonable to be promoted.
We can't speak to what may have been promised, or not, but the process is clear.
Once a member's respective PD level is recorded in eServices, and assuming TIG is completed,
the 3 flags will go green and your Commander or designate will be able to submit you for a "duty promotion".
Until and only if he submits the Duty Promotion though eServices will the next higher HQ even be aware of
the request, let along be able to act on it. (This assume this was recent, push back 3-4 years and
it could have been done on paper, but the process is the same).
With that said, if you are going to 000, no one is going to promote you, and there's no point in doing so because
you are going to be inactive. Nor should you assume that if you find a new unit, even right away, that
the new CC will be any more inclined to promote you.
I can't imagine why you would think you were to be promoted when it wasn't in the system.
There were a few times when I popped in on someone and surprised them with a promotion
they were nto expecting, or weren't' sure was going to happen, in those cases I clicked the
boxes in real time, but absent that, there's no real place for the confusion unless your CC
actually told you he'd submitted it and then didn't, but even in that case, submitted by your unit CC,
the next higher HQ still has to approve.
I've seen that take anywhere from "less then 1 minute" to "years".
Wow you totally misread into that, however you are correct once in 000 nothing can happen.
I was still a squadron member when I completed all of the requirements and I was a member when my commander said he wanted to promote me and according to the deputy commander my promotion was submitted to the next person up the chain in eservices.
Yes I know its not automatic, but I can't think of any reason to not be promoted other than what they have been telling me which is lack of leadership but I have several people who have backed me up in this regard and wing seems to disagree
Well....there you go.
Here are your options.
Very politely ask for formal feed back from the commander who declined your promotion request.
Take that feed back, work on it and then re-apply.
While the regs don't say anything one way or the other about mandatory feed back....IMHO it the right of any member to ask for and get feed back from a denied request.....and it is IMHO the duty of a leader to provide that feed back.
But....buyer beware.......you may get what you asked for.
Now....having said that.
If you ask for feed back and get nothing.....or if you get feed back that you don't think is accurate.....or if you feel you are not being treated fairly or within the bounds of the regulations.....you ALWAYS have the right to take it up the chain and/or file an IG complaint at the appropriate level.
Good luck.
OK yes that is pretty much what I thought, no offense meant on my last reply. Also, I understand that IG is to be used only for regulation violations or some other discrepancy in CAP business
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 10:28:01 PM
Wow you totally misread into that, however you are correct once in 000 nothing can happen.
I was still a squadron member when I completed all of the requirements and I was a member when my commander said he wanted to promote me and according to the deputy commander my promotion was submitted to the next person up the chain in eservices.
Yes I know its not automatic, but I can't think of any reason to not be promoted other than what they have been telling me which is lack of leadership but I have several people who have backed me up in this regard and wing seems to disagree
Reasons to not be promoted:
Inactivity, or lack of activity to the satisfaction of the approving commander.
failure to accept additional responsibility commensurate with the grade requested.
"Lack of leadership" (whatever that means).
Parking in the approvers space.
Poor narrative sent to the next echelon and the next echelon does not know you.
If you're interested in pursing it, a properly submitted request for promotion that was denied will
have evidence in one of two places - either in the promotions modules on eservices - it will show the dates
of actions, or a hardcopy F2 which shows the dates of actions along with the disapproval.
If one or the other of those does not exist, then odds are the F2 was not submitted properly or at all,
and could well have been a telephone conversation where the next higher HQ said "no, don't bother"
(which happens all the time but to me isn't kosher).
Frankly, if 000 is in your immediate future, it's probably not worth the hassle for anyone involved, including you.
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 10:50:09 PM
OK yes that is pretty much what I thought, no offense meant on my last reply. Also, I understand that IG is to be used only for regulation violations or some other discrepancy in CAP business
No.....not quite.
The IG has some specific lanes that it follows....promotion discrepancies is one of them. But there does not have to an out right violation of the regulations.
Getting denied a promotion is with in the regulations. If you feel that this is in error and that no one is trying to redress your greivences. The IG is one of your channels.
The IG will review the complaint and do one of the following. a) Take up the complaint and start an investigation. b) Determine that the IG is not the proper place for the complain and pass it on to the correct office for action. c) Determine that there is nothing to complain and drop it.
They are allowed to take on cases where there is no out right regs violation....but if the IG thinks it is in the best interest of the CAP and all its members they can pursue an investigation.
I don't expect to be promoted while in 000 status, but when and if I get transferred to a squadron only can I pursue it again once the commander is comfortable with a new recommendation
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 11:02:35 PM
I don't expect to be promoted while in 000 status, but when and if I get transferred to a squadron only can I pursue it again once the commander is comfortable with a new recommendation
Yes, with the caveat that if it's in the same Group or Wing then it may well be the same person on the end of the "no" train.
In many cases I have seen, however, the lack of a proper narrative was really the issue - the person's CC simply didn't make
a good case, or made none at all beyond clicking the boxes.
This has been brought up before in the past but perhaps it bears repeating. Exemplary level of performance - well, that's open to interpretation. Have you been with more than one squadron? Was there a very good reason for the move? Is your current commander aware of any issues you might have had with your former squadron if this is the case? The move to 000 might raise some questions but please, I'm not accusing you of anything questionable; just exploring some reasons why your promotion has been questioned. Are there people on the wing promotion board who know you?
On the positive side have you completed Level II (I assume you have)? Have your participated in large scale activities such as wing-level encampments, training leader of cadets, unit commander course and so on? These would weigh heavily in your favor.
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 11:02:35 PM
I don't expect to be promoted while in 000 status, but when and if I get transferred to a squadron only can I pursue it again once the commander is comfortable with a new recommendation
I really think you need to get back into an active unit and hope that your current commander will recognize your positive contributions whatever they are. If you're running into a road block at wing then there's not much you can do. Just some thoughts!
Now, see, this is something I don't understand.
On one hand, CAP is pretty clear that CAP grade is pretty much an indication of completion of PD levels and holds no command authority in and of itself. A Lt. Colonel who is part of Podunk Composite Squadron still has to follow the lawful orders of the Squadron CC, even if the CC is a 2d Lt. I've mentioned that, personally, that seems odd to me but several on this forum have told me, paraphrased, "that's just how CAP works, it's not a problem." Okay, fine.
But, on the other hand, in order to get promoted, some folks are held to a standard requiring they show "leadership skills" or have served in Group / Wing / National staff positions, and whatnot. This seems to imply that CAP grade is tied, at least somewhat, to command responsibility.
To me, these two concepts appear to be opposed to each other.
Quote from: Panache on July 03, 2014, 05:07:09 AM
Now, see, this is something I don't understand.
On one hand, CAP is pretty clear that CAP grade is pretty much an indication of completion of PD levels and holds no command authority in and of itself. A Lt. Colonel who is part of Podunk Composite Squadron still has to follow the lawful orders of the Squadron CC, even if the CC is a 2d Lt. I've mentioned that, personally, that seems odd to me but several on this forum have told me, paraphrased, "that's just how CAP works, it's not a problem." Okay, fine.
But, on the other hand, in order to get promoted, some folks are held to a standard requiring they show "leadership skills" or have served in Group / Wing / National staff positions, and whatnot. This seems to imply that CAP grade is tied, at least somewhat, to command responsibility.
To me, these two concepts appear to be opposed to each other.
That is what I was taught when I first came to CAP almost 8 years ago (and btw I am still a 1st Lt by choice until recently) I didn't really want to bother with the OBC but I am glad I went through the OBC and I learned tons! I was already doing many tasks and learning new leadership skills by performing a variety of duties that the squadron commander needed done; and 90% of the time I offered and the CC let me run off with it and I still complied with regs (and made mistakes, but not huge ones and then that CC taught me what to do and not to do until this current CC came along).
It IS my understanding that as you progress through the PD ranks/grades that you ARE expected to take on more responsibility than the previous graded afforded you and that command was irrelevant to what grade you were in because CAP couldn't afford to exclude 2nd Lts or 1st Lts from being commander if there were no Captains available. I was ALREADY taking on quite a bit of responsibilities and within the scope of my duties I did what I needed to do and I did what I was asked to do nothing more and nothing less so I don't understand what qualities of leadership I must have in order to achieve captain.
Several folks have told me that my wing prefers to reserve Captain for those in leadership and command (and I am seeing that this is the trend in the real military?)
I can't do anything about this situation until I'm out of 000; this is all because of my inability to work it out with the commander because he communicates differently than I do and I am not saying its his fault or mine but its creating lots of contention between several other senior members AND cadets (as well as their parents).
I can't disclose anything else; I realize that some of what we have discussed here has been rehashed before in various ways sorry about that AND you all deserve my thanks as a fellow CAP member, not thanking you would be poorly reflected upon and thanks for all your advices.
The CAP Professional Development program is designed that, even if you never hold a Command/Leadership role, you can advance by increasing levels of responsibility as a Staff Member.
There is nothing about PD that says you have to be in a command position. You do have to be an active participant on the staff at whatever level your chosen Specialty Track specifies. If this is a Wing/Group/Squadron policy, I'd ask for something in writing like an OI or policy letter...something. That's the best way the organization can defend against "Arbitrary and Capricious" Be Firm, Fair and Consistent.
I'll just copy a phrase from an email that pertains to the question on this thread in the morning
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 05:24:58 AM
Several folks have told me that my wing prefers to reserve Captain for those in leadership and command (and I am seeing that this is the trend in the real military?)
advices.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of O-3's (Captains, or Lieutenants for you naval types) that are staff officers with no "command", per se in the RealMilitary™. An example which immediately comes to mind are Medical Doctors and Dentists, both of which start out as O-3's upon commissioning (at least, they did back when I was in the service.) Another example are pilots, who may be O-3, and have no real "command" other than the aircraft if they're the PIC.
Quote from: Panache on July 03, 2014, 07:24:11 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 05:24:58 AM
Several folks have told me that my wing prefers to reserve Captain for those in leadership and command (and I am seeing that this is the trend in the real military?)
advices.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of O-3's (Captains, or Lieutenants for you naval types) that are staff officers with no "command", per se in the RealMilitary™. An example which immediately comes to mind are Medical Doctors and Dentists, both of which start out as O-3's upon commissioning (at least, they did back when I was in the service.) Another example are pilots, who may be O-3, and have no real "command" other than the aircraft if they're the PIC.
so the above ^^ is very similar to CAP, if you have any of the valuable assets such as an ATP or PPL you would start off as a Captain in CAP but not necessarily any command experience.
So I went through the email again, and my bad... totally "lack of leadership" wasn't the word even used but I guess you could throw that in anyway the words he used were "satisfaction of service" and then he went on that my service was not satisfactory :P bullcrap; I have done a lot for my squadron excluding financial support which doesn't count IMO.
Anyway this is all good info; but the higher ups choose to still reserve captain for leadership & command. And like everybody else said, there isn't a thing I can do while in 000 status so its kinda moot for the time being.
The simple fact is that promotion is a discretionary item, at the discretion of the unit commander, and in the case of Captain, the Group (or if no groups, Wing) commander.
One of the requirements for any promotion is:
Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade
recommended (CAPR 35-5, 2-1(a))
That requirement gives plenty of latitude for a Group/Wing commander to make discretionary decisions.
"Satisfactory service" does not meet the requirement. Exemplary service is the regulatory standard.
Quote from: JeffDG on July 03, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The simple fact is that promotion is a discretionary item, at the discretion of the unit commander, and in the case of Captain, the Group (or if no groups, Wing) commander.
One of the requirements for any promotion is:
Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade
recommended (CAPR 35-5, 2-1(a))
That requirement gives plenty of latitude for a Group/Wing commander to make discretionary decisions.
"Satisfactory service" does not meet the requirement. Exemplary service is the regulatory standard.
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
I'm just taken aback that someone wanted to promote me, wrote a weak recommendation and then didn't bother to tell me he changed his mind :D poor ethics IMO but hey its still within the regs and they haven't really done anything wrong :D
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on July 03, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The simple fact is that promotion is a discretionary item, at the discretion of the unit commander, and in the case of Captain, the Group (or if no groups, Wing) commander.
One of the requirements for any promotion is:
Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade
recommended (CAPR 35-5, 2-1(a))
That requirement gives plenty of latitude for a Group/Wing commander to make discretionary decisions.
"Satisfactory service" does not meet the requirement. Exemplary service is the regulatory standard.
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
I'm just taken aback that someone wanted to promote me, wrote a weak recommendation and then didn't bother to tell me he changed his mind :D poor ethics IMO but hey its still within the regs and they haven't really done anything wrong :D
Methinks they put in a "weak" promotion package just to get you off their back.
"See, I put you in but "they" turned you down."
Quote from: PHall on July 03, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on July 03, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The simple fact is that promotion is a discretionary item, at the discretion of the unit commander, and in the case of Captain, the Group (or if no groups, Wing) commander.
One of the requirements for any promotion is:
Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade
recommended (CAPR 35-5, 2-1(a))
That requirement gives plenty of latitude for a Group/Wing commander to make discretionary decisions.
"Satisfactory service" does not meet the requirement. Exemplary service is the regulatory standard.
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
I'm just taken aback that someone wanted to promote me, wrote a weak recommendation and then didn't bother to tell me he changed his mind :D poor ethics IMO but hey its still within the regs and they haven't really done anything wrong :D
Methinks they put in a "weak" promotion package just to get you off their back.
"See, I put you in but "they" turned you down."
well yes essentially you're right on the money; there's more to the story but everything I have said is true and factual other than an error I made and I corrected it in my recent post this morning. Anyway, retention is key and its working ;)
Quote from: mynetdude on July 02, 2014, 11:02:35 PM
I don't expect to be promoted while in 000 status, but when and if I get transferred to a squadron only can I pursue it again once the commander is comfortable with a new recommendation
What I did as a Squadron Commander and then as a Group Commander. When you come out of 000 status you need to put in 1 1/2 years of good service as a 1st Lt before I would recomend you for Captain. We have members who complete Level II, III or IV in several months and then do nothing, go inactive or Patron and then come back years later and think they should be a Lt Col because they did Level IV in 2004. 8)
Quote from: PHall on July 03, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on July 03, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The simple fact is that promotion is a discretionary item, at the discretion of the unit commander, and in the case of Captain, the Group (or if no groups, Wing) commander.
One of the requirements for any promotion is:
Quote(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade
recommended (CAPR 35-5, 2-1(a))
That requirement gives plenty of latitude for a Group/Wing commander to make discretionary decisions.
"Satisfactory service" does not meet the requirement. Exemplary service is the regulatory standard.
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
I'm just taken aback that someone wanted to promote me, wrote a weak recommendation and then didn't bother to tell me he changed his mind :D poor ethics IMO but hey its still within the regs and they haven't really done anything wrong :D
Methinks they put in a "weak" promotion package just to get you off their back.
"See, I put you in but "they" turned you down."
That was a great answer by PHALL.
When I was in Group I was "they" the bad guy who turned people down for (bogus) promotions and (unearned) awards ... 8)
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
Before I go further, Eclipse, I know how you feel about this and respect it but will never agree with your interpretation of the regs on this, especially viz. what constitutes "exceptional."
I have been a Captain since 1997 (with breaks in service) and have accepted that I will probably never go any higher. I submitted promotion paperwork for Major a year-and-a-half ago and it did not make it beyond the squadron.
I won't go into full details about the fact that I have a documented disabling condition which prevents me from taking part in as many CAP activities as I would like to, which kiboshed my chances.
I have more or less accepted that I will never make it beyond Captain. I sure am not going to ever submit paperwork for promotion ever again on my own.
The reason I am telling you this is that what constitutes "exemplary" is not cut-and-dried. It is very open-ended and what one commander may regard as "exemplary" might not even be on the radar for another commander as "just getting by." One commander may require you to participate in every squadron, group, wing and region activity to be considered "exemplary," while others may not.
That's as far as I'll go with it.
Disagree all you want,
hier stehe ich.
Quote from: CyBorg on July 03, 2014, 09:47:07 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on July 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM
Indeed, I agree satisfactory doesn't meet the requirements; my point is yes I know that there is a lot of latitude in what discretion those whom have the authority at the proper echelon to push a few buttons the fact remains is that it seems that their discretion can be limited to just reserving it for those who are going to be in a commander or leadership position but the regs says that is not even required to even have captain.
Before I go further, Eclipse, I know how you feel about this and respect it but will never agree with your interpretation of the regs on this, especially viz. what constitutes "exceptional."
I have been a Captain since 1997 (with breaks in service) and have accepted that I will probably never go any higher. I submitted promotion paperwork for Major a year-and-a-half ago and it did not make it beyond the squadron.
I won't go into full details about the fact that I have a documented disabling condition which prevents me from taking part in as many CAP activities as I would like to, which kiboshed my chances.
I have more or less accepted that I will never make it beyond Captain. I sure am not going to ever submit paperwork for promotion ever again on my own.
The reason I am telling you this is that what constitutes "exemplary" is not cut-and-dried. It is very open-ended and what one commander may regard as "exemplary" might not even be on the radar for another commander as "just getting by." One commander may require you to participate in every squadron, group, wing and region activity to be considered "exemplary," while others may not.
That's as far as I'll go with it.
Disagree all you want, hier stehe ich.
It goes to show that when regulations are open to a lot of interpretation its gonna be hit & miss whether you keep that person or not ;) but a good commander would do it on a case by case basis as everyone has different challenges.