I heard my C/CC jokingly say that he was going to demote one of the Squadron's Chiefs, but it made me wonder: is it really possible for members to get demoted, and if so: how? Do you have to be a certain rank to demote, and if demoted, what do you need to do to promote again? Note: I'm not at risk of getting demoted, just curious.
CAPR 52-16, page 29, section 5-14 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf)
It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.
Quote from: arajca on February 04, 2014, 11:57:13 PM
It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.
No, for cadets the demotion is carried out at the squadron level. If it is appealed, then the final decision rests on the next echelon commander (group or wing). Otherwise, it stays at the squadron level except a courtesy copy of a letter.
Quote from: LSThiker on February 05, 2014, 01:54:29 AM
Quote from: arajca on February 04, 2014, 11:57:13 PM
It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.
No, for cadets the demotion is carried out at the squadron level. If it is appealed, then the final decision rests on the next echelon commander (group or wing). Otherwise, it stays at the squadron level except a courtesy copy of a letter.
So it is a NON-TRIVIAL.....i.e. not a joke....issue that involves levels above the squadron.....i.e. the next echelon commander.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2014, 03:35:13 AM
issue that involves levels above the squadron.....i.e. the next echelon commander.
It is only an issue that involves one level above the squadron if the cadet appeals. If the cadet does not appeal, then the decision is a squadron level issue only.
So it is a non-trivial issue that involves only the squadron level except in times when the cadet appeals. Then it becomes a non-trivial issue for only the next level above the squadron.
Demotion = non-trivial squadron level issue
Appeal = 1 level above the squadron (group or wing if no groups present) non-trivial issue
My point was that it does not involve levels (2 or more) above the squadron, only 1 level. And it is only an issue above the squadron level if the cadet appeals. If the cadet never appeals, then it never becomes an issue at the group/wing level. I was not saying that it was not a non-trivial issue.
I only know personally of one demotion (from Captain to First Lieutenant) during 20-odd years in and out of CAP wher the person actually stayed in and didn't say "up an afterburner with this anyway."
Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.
Of course, it could be different with cadets.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 05, 2014, 09:04:52 PM
Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.
Done right, it can be a useful tool.
I won't bore you with the full text here, but it's basically just like the speech I've had to give to a few junior enlisted when reading an Article 15 demoting them for one reason or another (never done it in CAP thankfully). The gist is trying to build them back up after the demotion- let them know this doesn't have to be a career ender. Many people recover from this and go on to do good things. Chalk it up to a learning experience (as they just weren't ready for the higher grade) and say this is their opportunity to regroup in their comfort zone of a lower rank, refocus, and get after it again.
Done wrong, people can brood, internalize, and feel worthless- that leads to people that do have a salvageable purpose deciding to hang up the uniform and quit.
Post demotion mentorship is key.
I agree in the abstract, but the CAP reality is a lot different.
On the cadet side, where the cadets are taking from CAP, infractions are likely to be objective and corrected, and the
cadet is still hopeful regarding a wealth of opportunity, then demotions and other disciplinary actions can be
a "turning point" in a young person's life, especially if they haven't had much structure or push-back in their life to that point.
But for adults, most situations where I've seen demotions considered, the organization, or at least the leaders involved,
were as much or more at fault then the member, and in far too many cases it's a "he who can urinate higher" situation
that has absolutely nothing to do with grade, authority or who is "right".
Letting members run roughshod over regs, policies, and other members for months or years and then
having to discipline someone who was never properly "tuned" from day one as a "last straw effort" is a command failing,
not a member failing.
I guess if you do something really outside the lane, and understand you were really wrong and want to make
up for it, or you want to set an example for your people about how the world works (Admiral Kirk was "demoted" to Captain
after saving the earth because rules are rules, and you can't just go around stealing starships without consequences, etc.)
But in reality, I can't imagine that anyone who is far enough off the CAP mark to be demoted would care about sticking
around anyway.
Since grade isn't tied to money, or your job, or anything else meaningful except for personal effort and achievement,
demoting a senior just denigrates "work already done", while simultaneously expecting "more work will be done" because the
member being demoted is going to stick around and redouble efforts to make CAP love them again.
What's the actual punishment? A $100 Vanguard fine in having to re-buy your previous grade and the effort in sewing?
And from there, the member becomes 100% beholden to the command chain to be restored, since you can't revoke
PD Levels, there's no actual "work" to be redone to earn your click back. You're in "goodfella limbo" until 1-3 people
think you've served your penance.
I'm trying to come up with something serious enough to be demoted, but not serious enough to get you terminated, where
you'd still stick around.
On he cadet side, I've known of more then a few cadets who were demoted for either disciplinary issues or "failure to perform
at grade level". Generally the former don't stick around very long, but the latter straighten up and move on and up.
As mentioned, a lot of it is how the message is delivered and what follows after.
Quote from: LSThiker on May 30, 1974, 02:47:45 PM
It is only an issue that involves one level above the squadron if the cadet appeals. If the cadet does not appeal, then the decision is a squadron level issue only.
"let those who appeal to Caesar...go to Caesar!"
Quote from: CyBorg on February 05, 2014, 09:04:52 PM
I only know personally of one demotion (from Captain to First Lieutenant) during 20-odd years in and out of CAP wher the person actually stayed in and didn't say "up an afterburner with this anyway."
Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.
Of course, it could be different with cadets.
I've demoted two cadets in my 12 years in CP......both of them stayed with the program, learned their lessons and moved on.
A lot of it has to do with how and why you do the demotion....and how you mentor during the make up time.
I have had more cadets quit because we delayed a promotion.....go figure.
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on March 10, 2014, 02:11:34 AM
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."
Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."
I was trying to be helpful, Sir. Apologies if I jumped to conclusions too rapidly.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 10, 2014, 02:32:53 AM
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on March 10, 2014, 02:11:34 AM
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."
Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."
No reason to jump on him, he gave you a theory, and not an illogical one.
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on March 10, 2014, 02:11:34 AM
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
Not possible. When you sit a cadet down, hand him a CAPF 50, explain exactly what the problem is, what my expectations were, how long I wanted to see the improved behavior....and then had to do the same thing the following week with their parents.........I was not ignoring anyone.
When I say "delayed promotion" I was not talking about some super secret double probation.
My cadets are pretty aware of when they are eligible for promotion when they complete all the requirements they turn in their "promotion agreements" and we process the promotion....if the CDC decides that the cadet is not ready....we do a form 50 explaining what is wrong and why.
^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."
Of course, Master Sergeant, your experience in the RealMilitary (mine too) would teach you that "if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist."
Quote from: CyBorg on March 10, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."
Cadets are not allowed to be "non-promoted without comment" - the regulations require that the denial include a specific reason why
along with a remediation plan.
(Not so for seniors).
Quote from: CyBorg on March 10, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."
Of course, Master Sergeant, your experience in the RealMilitary (mine too) would teach you that "if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist."
My experience in the RealMilitary would teach me that your subordinates can't fix things if you have not told them what is wrong and what they need to do to fix it.
Even if the reason for non-promotion is "I just don't like you" at least you know what the problem is and you can do something to fix it.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 11, 2014, 01:37:49 AM
(Not so for seniors).
That sucks vacuum.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2014, 02:15:35 AM
Even if the reason for non-promotion is "I just don't like you" at least you know what the problem is and you can do something to fix it.
Maybe. One thing I have learned through life experience and university-level psychology/sociology courses is that you cannot make
anyone like you, and some people are just not going to, no matter what your best efforts may be. A lot of people do not like me (mostly because very introverted people are too often mistaken for being aloof). I don't even like
myself sometimes!
So what do you do when someone in that situation is responsible for seeing if you promote or not, they will not like you no matter how hard you try, and are unable to disconnect themselves from their personal feelings about you to be objective about your "worthiness" or lack thereof?
In the RealMilitary (active), you can request a transfer - and there's no guarantee you'll get it. If you're in the Guard or Reserve, you can request to join another unit - which may necessitate a move on your part, if there isn't another unit close by with a vacancy for your MOS/AFSC.
In CAP, what do you do? Do you stay in that unit when you know Commander Johnny Fartpants does not like you and will not allow you to advance? Do you join another unit (given that there IS another unit that won't require an overnight stay just to go to a unit meeting)? Or do you just leave CAP altogether?
Quote from: CyBorg on March 11, 2014, 04:09:47 AM
In CAP, what do you do? Do you stay in that unit when you know Commander Johnny Fartpants does not like you and will not allow you to advance? Do you join another unit (given that there IS another unit that won't require an overnight stay just to go to a unit meeting)? Or do you just leave CAP altogether?
You do what you do in the military. You go over Fartpants' head, IG complains, etc. Or you stick it out and wait for Fartpants to die. Or you go find somewhere else to spend your hard earned time and money.
It is up to the individual. I always suggest the fight tooth and nail option.....it is the only way for CAP to fix the Capt Fartpants.
I see that too much here on CAPTALK...."Help! I'm being repressed/harrassed/dissed/ignored! But if I complain I won't get promoted!"
Quote from: CyBorg on March 11, 2014, 04:09:47 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 11, 2014, 01:37:49 AM
(Not so for seniors).
That sucks vacuum.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2014, 02:15:35 AM
Even if the reason for non-promotion is "I just don't like you" at least you know what the problem is and you can do something to fix it.
In CAP, what do you do? Do you stay in that unit when you know Commander Johnny Fartpants does not like you and will not allow you to advance? Do you join another unit (given that there IS another unit that won't require an overnight stay just to go to a unit meeting)? Or do you just leave CAP altogether?
If you're willing to suffer a little, I do agree with lordmonar - dig in and fight, don't just sit there and suffer as that's truly self-destructive. Plus, you're then paying good money for something you hate doing that won't ever change. If you dig in, the worst that can happen is you end up leaving (it isn't a paid career... ;) ). Real change in an organization takes effort.... and there's a cost. You have to balance what you're prepared to do and to suffer against the cost to you personally.
We had two cadets who were being *horribly* treated by the incumbent CDC when I was a 'lowly SMWOG' still trying to find out how the organization worked. By the end of Week1 as a SMWOG I'd worked out that the CDC had no business being around young people and that one of the cadets at least was being held back deliberately. Before I could intervene, the cadets both complained, following the CAP rules and the CDC decided to leave the organization. It took some real courage on the cadet's part to do that. That's the example I use when people ask me what they should do.
I'm also a real fan of behaving and if necessary leaving with dignity and style. If you dig in, don't get in the gutter even if the other side do and, if you do leave, make sure the organization knows why, and not just us here on CAPTALK.
Quote from: CyBorg on March 11, 2014, 04:09:47 AM
In CAP, what do you do? Do you stay in that unit when you know Commander Johnny Fartpants does not like you and will not allow you to advance? Do you join another unit (given that there IS another unit that won't require an overnight stay just to go to a unit meeting)? Or do you just leave CAP altogether?
You got to be "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" guy. Take it up with the chain of Command. The last time I complained about a poor Squadron Commander to a Group Commander who did nothing about it. The Group Commander got fired. YMMV 8)
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 11, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
We had two cadets who were being *horribly* treated by the incumbent CDC when I was a 'lowly SMWOG' still trying to find out how the organization worked. By the end of Week1 as a SMWOG I'd worked out that the CDC had no business being around young people and that one of the cadets at least was being held back deliberately. Before I could intervene, the cadets both complained, following the CAP rules and the CDC decided to leave the organization. It took some real courage on the cadet's part to do that. That's the example I use when people ask me what they should do.
I'm also a real fan of behaving and if necessary leaving with dignity and style. If you dig in, don't get in the gutter even if the other side do and, if you do leave, make sure the organization knows why, and not just us here on CAPTALK.
A good example and a good point too. Somebody in Command is not always the 'perfect' person. Above is a good example, the SQ/CC needs to monitor their Staff and fire or replace personnel as needed.
That is a good point. I have left Wing (a few times) different Groups and different Squadrons. I may have been the devil's advocate but I always left on good terms. My next work promotion may put me back in a previous Unit. 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 11, 2014, 05:43:17 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 11, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
We had two cadets who were being *horribly* treated by the incumbent CDC when I was a 'lowly SMWOG' still trying to find out how the organization worked. By the end of Week1 as a SMWOG I'd worked out that the CDC had no business being around young people and that one of the cadets at least was being held back deliberately. Before I could intervene, the cadets both complained, following the CAP rules and the CDC decided to leave the organization. It took some real courage on the cadet's part to do that. That's the example I use when people ask me what they should do.
I'm also a real fan of behaving and if necessary leaving with dignity and style. If you dig in, don't get in the gutter even if the other side do and, if you do leave, make sure the organization knows why, and not just us here on CAPTALK.
A good example and a good point too. Somebody in Command is not always the 'perfect' person. Above is a good example, the SQ/CC needs to monitor their Staff and fire or replace personnel as needed.
That is a good point. I have left Wing (a few times) different Groups and different Squadrons. I may have been the devil's advocate but I always left on good terms. My next work promotion may put me back in a previous Unit. 8)
Indeed - leave on good enough terms and much can be forgiven. Learning to forgive is also important. I have left a paid job where my direct manager *hated* me. He resorted to describing me with the f word in every sentence, even with other and more senior managers or HR in the room. All I'd done was to reveal where he hadn't been paying attention..... >:D It was more serious than it sounds, sadly.
I sat quietly through it all, even the planned, direct but petty insult of failing to arrange for my leaving lunch and presentation! When I left, I was asked how I'd been treated....so I told them, without adding or subtracting! The inquirer was thoughtful and left with notes in hand.....
For months I wanted nothing but damage to befall my former manager. The I realized: he probably spared zero time thinking about me, assuming he was even still employed. I stopped hating and let myself forgive him. Very cathartic.
Good luck in your new job!
"Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future." - Paul Boese
Quote from: Alaric on March 10, 2014, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 10, 2014, 02:32:53 AM
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on March 10, 2014, 02:11:34 AM
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."
Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."
No reason to jump on him, he gave you a theory, and not an illogical one.
Wow! You thought THAT constituted "jump on him?"
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 13, 2014, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: Alaric on March 10, 2014, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 10, 2014, 02:32:53 AM
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on March 10, 2014, 02:11:34 AM
They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.
To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."
Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."
No reason to jump on him, he gave you a theory, and not an illogical one.
Wow! You thought THAT constituted "jump on him?"
I would have thought that obvious by my comment.