CAP Talk

Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

Is there some regulation against full size medals or is it some tradition not addressed in actual regulations?

Just curious.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

Is there some regulation against full size medals or is it some tradition not addressed in actual regulations?

Just curious.

I don't know all the history, but simply put - CAP doesn't wear medals on anything except the mess dress, where the minis are worn. Full size medals are not mentioned in any version of CAPM 39-1, which goes all the way back to 1961.

What Dave said....

Combine that with the cost. Why should the organization pay to stock all of the everyman medals that we have when nobody is going to ever wear them? The argument could be made for personal awards (i.e. Achievement through SMOV), but a full sized Membership Medal? Nah....

The only full size medals CAP has has were the Falcon award and Medals of Valor. None could be worn on CAP uniforms, only the ribbons or mini medals on Mess Dress.

You forgot the DSM.

Quote from: BillB on November 01, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
The only full size medals CAP has has were the Falcon award and Medals of Valor. None could be worn on CAP uniforms, only the ribbons or mini medals on Mess Dress.

I might add that the AF doesn't have any uniforms on which full-size gongs are worn.  (Well, except for those godawfully-ugly things worn by the incoming and outgoing CSAF and the CMSAF at the last change of command.  Ugh.)

Many SMs (myself included) would willingly purchase full-size medals of the CAP decorations and higher training awards (Garber and Wilson, at least) for shadowbox display.  Perhaps Vanguard should consider it ...

Jack

Unlikely.  You know some clown would get a USMC Medal Bar and show up wearing the big ones on their Mess Dress...

I wouldn't mind seeing full-size gongs (for presentation, not uniform wear) of the remaining Form 120 decorations (ESA, MSA, ComCom, Achievement and Lifesaving). Ditto with the Gill Robb Wilson and for the cadinks the Spaatz and Eaker (and for the Oooold former cadinks the Cadet COP). Anything else would be overkill.

The jacked-up uniform worn at the AF Chief of Staff's change of command was nothing more than the officer version of the USAF band tunic with the general officer's dress pistol belt. (Generals do have the privilege of wearing variations of the standard uniforms.)

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

The reality is that most Senior Awards aren't "presented" at all.

For every "shake and take" at a staff meeting or banquet, there's 100 (1000?) that are sent via email, regular mail,
handed informally in a dark garage at night, and far too many that are approved and never awarded to the member,
only to be found behind a file cabinet or under a coffee cup a decade later.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 01, 2013, 02:47:07 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

The reality is that most Senior Awards aren't "presented" at all.

For every "shake and take" at a staff meeting or banquet, there's 100 (1000?) that are sent via email, regular mail,
handed informally in a dark garage at night, and far too many that are approved and never awarded to the member,
only to be found behind a file cabinet or under a coffee cup a decade later.

Yup.... been that guy

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 02:36:00 PM
The jacked-up uniform worn at the AF Chief of Staff's change of command was nothing more than the officer version of the USAF band tunic with the general officer's dress pistol belt. (Generals do have the privilege of wearing variations of the standard uniforms.)

That doesn't mean it wasn't godawfully ugly.

Jack

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 04:08:39 PM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 02:36:00 PM
The jacked-up uniform worn at the AF Chief of Staff's change of command was nothing more than the officer version of the USAF band tunic with the general officer's dress pistol belt. (Generals do have the privilege of wearing variations of the standard uniforms.)

That doesn't mean it wasn't godawfully ugly.

Jack

Agreed... that was a fugly uniform!

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 06:12:24 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 04:08:39 PM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 02:36:00 PM
The jacked-up uniform worn at the AF Chief of Staff's change of command was nothing more than the officer version of the USAF band tunic with the general officer's dress pistol belt. (Generals do have the privilege of wearing variations of the standard uniforms.)

That doesn't mean it wasn't godawfully ugly.

Jack

Agreed... that was a fugly uniform!

To make a hopefully appropriate comment, it fell out of the fugly tree, hit every branch on the way down, was hit by a falling branch, a gust of wind blew it back to the top and it fell again.

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 01:00:11 PM
I might add that the AF doesn't have any uniforms on which full-size gongs are worn.  (Well, except for those godawfully-ugly things worn by the incoming and outgoing CSAF and the CMSAF at the last change of command.  Ugh.)

Many SMs (myself included) would willingly purchase full-size medals of the CAP decorations and higher training awards (Garber and Wilson, at least) for shadowbox display.  Perhaps Vanguard should consider it ...

Jack

Sorry, but that's incorrect. Full-sized medals are worn as ordered or required in the Air Force. More often than not, you will see them on the uniforms of honor guards or on general officers during formal ceremonies.

As far as the CAP is concerned, however, miniature medals are a product of when CAP was finally authorized to wear the Mess Dress Uniform. I asked the same question about the lack of full-sized medals once to the National Historian and again to a close friend of his who has been around the organization long enough to know. In addition to the cost factor, I was told both times that the lack of medals and the preference of ribbons had something heraldry-wise to do with our status as the Air Force's civilian auxiliary. That status also had something do with why there is a lot of white in our ribbons.

How true that is, is beyond me because I wasn't given any references to back up those comments.

I really think, however, that Vanguard ought to work with NHQ and come up with some full sized medals in presentation cases and offer them for sale, Not sure if they would be a big seller, but at least the option would be out there as a member's choice. If they do, I would hope that the collaboration also would produce a better design for some miniature medals like the awful looking Commander's Commendation Award -- there really wasn't a whole lot of imagination used on that one.

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 01, 2013, 07:18:51 PM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 06:12:24 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 04:08:39 PM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 01, 2013, 02:36:00 PM
The jacked-up uniform worn at the AF Chief of Staff's change of command was nothing more than the officer version of the USAF band tunic with the general officer's dress pistol belt. (Generals do have the privilege of wearing variations of the standard uniforms.)

That doesn't mean it wasn't godawfully ugly.

Jack

Agreed... that was a fugly uniform!

To make a hopefully appropriate comment, it fell out of the fugly tree, hit every branch on the way down, was hit by a falling branch, a gust of wind blew it back to the top and it fell again.

Anybody got a picture, or at least a link?  My curiosity is getting the better of me.

The primary reason was due to the fact that they are not authorized on any current uniform. That is except for the initial presentation of the Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award, and at one time the Falcon Award.

They give you one of the full size medals, no mini. If you get the SMV, BMV, or DSA. You have to buy replacements directly from NHQ. They have the list of "authorized recipients". They charge about $8 for the mini or full size and a few bucks for the ribbon.

The cost to produce was also a direct factor. How many people would actually order them. This also created a potential problem. People wearing them anyhow on the uniform without them being authorized.

There was a effort at one time to select a few of the awards to produce on the full size scale.
1) Gill Robb Wilson
2) Life Save
3) Spaatz
4) Mitchell

They were deemed the most worthy of sorts to produce. The effort died out several years ago due to lack of support.

There was even a small attempt at making the SMV a neck medal. folks got "upset" that it would be like trying to equate it to the MOH. There were plenty of other non profits that did the same with their "top award" and no one complained about that. So that died out very quickly. I believe that someone even made a model of the proposed idea. There are several threads on here that already hash it out.

I think the four already listed would be perfect additions.

Quote from: capsafety on November 02, 2013, 10:18:36 AM
The primary reason was due to the fact that they are not authorized on any current uniform. That is except for the initial presentation of the Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award, and at one time the Falcon Award.

They give you one of the full size medals, no mini. If you get the SMV, BMV, or DSA. You have to buy replacements directly from NHQ. They have the list of "authorized recipients". They charge about $8 for the mini or full size and a few bucks for the ribbon.

The cost to produce was also a direct factor. How many people would actually order them. This also created a potential problem. People wearing them anyhow on the uniform without them being authorized.

There was a effort at one time to select a few of the awards to produce on the full size scale.
1) Gill Robb Wilson
2) Life Save
3) Spaatz
4) Mitchell

They were deemed the most worthy of sorts to produce. The effort died out several years ago due to lack of support.

There was even a small attempt at making the SMV a neck medal. folks got "upset" that it would be like trying to equate it to the MOH. There were plenty of other non profits that did the same with their "top award" and no one complained about that. So that died out very quickly. I believe that someone even made a model of the proposed idea. There are several threads on here that already hash it out.

I think the four already listed would be perfect additions.

I think I would just start with the Spaatz and Wilson awards because they represent the peak of the cadet and senior member training programs.

I wonder what prestige it would lend to the achievement and presentation of both awards?

What does it take to get someone at NHQ to start that process?

Quote from: capsafety on November 02, 2013, 10:18:36 AM
The primary reason was due to the fact that they are not authorized on any current uniform. That is except for the initial presentation of the Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award, and at one time the Falcon Award.

The full size medal makes for an old fashion, classic photo op. But framed certificates for the other awards are fine, JMHO.

I like ceremonies and it is a shame we do not recognize the Senior Membership like we do the Cadets. That is what makes a Cadet Squadron so enjoyable. When a Cadet promotes they really shine at the moment.  8)

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

Answer: Because we are the "mini-me" of the Air Force.   >:D

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 02, 2013, 03:24:39 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

Answer: Because we are the "mini-me" of the Air Force.   >:D

Sooooo....Ma Blue is Dr. Evil, and CAP is Mini-Me?

"We shall call it...mini me. And the planes shall have frickin' laser beams on their wings. And each member will be placed in an easily escapable situation involving ABUs and an overly elaborate and exotic promotion system. ENGAGE THE UNECESSARILY SLOW FLIGHT RELEASE MECHANISM! We shall leave them alone and not actually witness them working and assume everything goes according to plan."

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 02, 2013, 03:18:30 PM
I like ceremonies and it is a shame we do not recognize the Senior Membership like we do the Cadets...

Totally agree.

Quote from: Walkman on November 02, 2013, 06:52:23 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 02, 2013, 03:18:30 PM
I like ceremonies and it is a shame we do not recognize the Senior Membership like we do the Cadets...

Totally agree.

Other units don't award SMs on "Promotion Night"? Sure its much rarer than cadets, but why wouldnt you tag SM awards/promotions with the cadet awards at the all hands?

In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

In the year I've been around though, I have not see any medals being presented to anyone. Is that supposed to be done in a ceremony also? Maybe the same ceremony as many of the cadet achievements confer grade as well as a ribbon/medal. No?

Nobody has mentioned money.  It cost me well over a hundred dollars to make up a full size rack, and that was only six common military awards.  A full size rack for someone who has been in CAP awhile would probably cost a fortune - and weigh several pounds.

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 02, 2013, 05:26:34 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 02, 2013, 03:24:39 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 01, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Question: Why are most CAP Senior Awards presented only in mini-medal form?

Answer: Because we are the "mini-me" of the Air Force.   >:D

Sooooo....Ma Blue is Dr. Evil, and CAP is Mini-Me?

"Mini-Me, no! We don't gnaw on our kitty.  Leave Mini-Mr. Bigglesworth alone.  Just love him, stroke him."

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

In the year I've been around though, I have not see any medals being presented to anyone. Is that supposed to be done in a ceremony also? Maybe the same ceremony as many of the cadet achievements confer grade as well as a ribbon/medal. No?

Some Squadrons do and some do not. Same with Group HQ and at Wing HQ I do not recall anyone getting promoted.

The only medals we have is SMV, BMV and the DSA, which is usually presented at the Wing Conference. The Cadets can also get the AFA award which consists of a medal to present along with the certificate. That is one the Cadets like.

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

Our seniors have always been privately asked if they want to be called up front. I can think of one time where a senior said yes (he had his parents come in to put his captain epaulets on). The prevailing opinion seems to be "it's a cadet thing" when it comes to rank. That's not to say people aren't progressing, our PDO has everyone on a spreadsheet and is on top of what everyone should be doing to advance. I guess most want the info part of the meeting to conclude as quickly as possible so that everyone can get to work on whatever project they have that night  ;)

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 01:00:11 PM
I might add that the AF doesn't have any uniforms on which full-size gongs are worn.  (Well, except for those godawfully-ugly things worn by the incoming and outgoing CSAF and the CMSAF at the last change of command.  Ugh.)

Many SMs (myself included) would willingly purchase full-size medals of the CAP decorations and higher training awards (Garber and Wilson, at least) for shadowbox display.  Perhaps Vanguard should consider it ...

Jack

Sorry been off=line and couldn't get on to post.

I'd like to point out that while there are uniforms in the Army that fullsize medals could be worn on (IE Dress Greens, Dress Blues, Dress Whites) they were rarely (if ever) worn on them outside of the Old Guard or other ceremonial local unit.

The only time most of us wear one is when it is pinned on at the awards ceremony... after that, ribbons only.

So other than a shadow box, they're not much use to us either.

I do like the concept of them being offered to those who would wish to buy them.

I also find it disheartening that there is so little ceremony placed in awarding Senior Members their due rewards and promotions, to me even that little form of recognition is a big retention tool and possibly a recruitment tool.

The concept of what is "hard" varies by the abilities of the person.

For example, I assume most of the posters here would think completing CAP's Level 1 is easy, but for a new SM who never served in the military, was never a CAP cadet and just an average guy/gal looking to volunteer their time to something, Level 1 might be hard and completion a big deal to them.

So to have a small ceremony at a meeting where he/she is called forward and the Membership Award Medal is pinned on them in front of everyone would be a big deal to him/her and if a potential member is in audience, seeing that simple ceremony might be the "push" they need to join.

The same for any other award, recognition in front of your peers and friends helps to reinforce why a person volunteered in the first place.

Much better than telling that SM, "you can go to this website and print out your online certificate and go to Vanguard's website to order your ribbon and mini-medal".

Quote from: shuman14 on November 05, 2013, 04:17:26 AM

I also find it disheartening that there is so little ceremony placed in awarding Senior Members their due rewards and promotions, to me even that little form of recognition is a big retention tool and possibly a recruitment tool.

The concept of what is "hard" varies by the abilities of the person.

For example, I assume most of the posters here would think completing CAP's Level 1 is easy, but for a new SM who never served in the military, was never a CAP cadet and just an average guy/gal looking to volunteer their time to something, Level 1 might be hard and completion a big deal to them.

So to have a small ceremony at a meeting where he/she is called forward and the Membership Award Medal is pinned on them in front of everyone would be a big deal to him/her and if a potential member is in audience, seeing that simple ceremony might be the "push" they need to join.

The same for any other award, recognition in front of your peers and friends helps to reinforce why a person volunteered in the first place.

Much better than telling that SM, "you can go to this website and print out your online certificate and go to Vanguard's website to order your ribbon and mini-medal".

Exactly!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree that we should put more into stuff for Senior Members- it makes things mean a little more when they're presented right, and it is always nice to get the pat on the back in front of your peers.

That said, I also feel kinda strongly in the opposite direction in that CAP has too many ribbons. Not that I've been in long enough to get many, but the ones that get me are the ones tied to rank or other achievements. For example, why did I get both a ribbon AND a technician badge when I made my first tech rating? Why does the Crossfield award exist, when you already have a master version of the aerospace badge? I don't advocate taking away cadet bling, but why does every promotion also have a ribbon, when they're already wearing the rank? The Army gives out service awards like candy too, but at least it's one ribbon/badge/rank per achievement. The one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

All that said, I guess what I'm getting at is yes- I'd love optional full size medals for a shadow box and recognition of senior members- but I also think we need to cut down on what's out there to make what you earn mean that much more.

Finally, I would point out that you can make a decent shadow box with mini medals yourself. I did that with my Army mini-medals- found an 8x10 frame with a 5x7 matte and a little depth behind the glass. Glued some black felt to the back of the matte, and just pinned the medal rack to it. Added a few other pins on the top right/left (you could add specialty track badges) and closed it up. The back bulges out a bit from the metal backings, but it looks fine on the wall.

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

Yes... and no.

The ASR itself has little meaning, but purpose behind it is sound. Back before the ASR was created, during the Cold War, draftee soldiers were getting sent to Germany and were being awarded German awards like the GAFET and the Schutzenschnur but could not wear them because regulations stated Foreign decorations could only be worn in conjunction with at least one (1) US decoration.

Since this was also before the Army Achievement Medal was created, most soldiers didn't see their first decoration until their Good Conduct medal was awarded at 3 years, which most draftees never saw, getting out at 2 years.

So the Army created the ASR, the most minor of decorations, so that those German (and other Foreign awards) could actually be worn when they were presented.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:14:32 AM

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

The ASR itself has little meaning...

There is the understatement of the evening.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:14:32 AM

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

Yes... and no.

The ASR itself has little meaning, but purpose behind it is sound. Back before the ASR was created, during the Cold War, draftee soldiers were getting sent to Germany and were being awarded German awards like the GAFET and the Schutzenschnur but could not wear them because regulations stated Foreign decorations could only be worn in conjunction with at least one (1) US decoration.

Since this was also before the Army Achievement Medal was created, most soldiers didn't see their first decoration until their Good Conduct medal was awarded at 3 years, which most draftees never saw, getting out at 2 years.

So the Army created the ASR, the most minor of decorations, so that those German (and other Foreign awards) could actually be worn when they were presented.

I was Army Guard 1982-1985 and that is not now I remember it. BTW, the last drafted soldier reported for duty in June 1973. The Army Achievement Medal was a good ideal, badly deployed. A friend of mine, his son got an AAM for doing well in Boot Camp.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:14:32 AM

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

Yes... and no.

The ASR itself has little meaning, but purpose behind it is sound. Back before the ASR was created, during the Cold War, draftee soldiers were getting sent to Germany and were being awarded German awards like the GAFET and the Schutzenschnur but could not wear them because regulations stated Foreign decorations could only be worn in conjunction with at least one (1) US decoration.

Since this was also before the Army Achievement Medal was created, most soldiers didn't see their first decoration until their Good Conduct medal was awarded at 3 years, which most draftees never saw, getting out at 2 years.

So the Army created the ASR, the most minor of decorations, so that those German (and other Foreign awards) could actually be worn when they were presented.

I'm not buying that. Not a'tall.

The last "Cold War" draftee to go to Germany without at least one US award was probably in 1960, maybe 1961, when the NDSM started to be awarded again following a break since the mid 1950's. But the ASR didn't come along until 1981. Are you really trying to convince anyone that they came up with a ribbon then to solve a problem that hadn't been around for 20 years?

And...point of order. ASR isn't a "decoration."

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 04, 2013, 03:28:39 AM

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

In the year I've been around though, I have not see any medals being presented to anyone. Is that supposed to be done in a ceremony also? Maybe the same ceremony as many of the cadet achievements confer grade as well as a ribbon/medal. No?

Some Squadrons do and some do not. Same with Group HQ and at Wing HQ I do not recall anyone getting promoted.

The only medals we have is SMV, BMV and the DSA, which is usually presented at the Wing Conference. The Cadets can also get the AFA award which consists of a medal to present along with the certificate. That is one the Cadets like.

A CAP career can last over 70 years. But somehow, the idea that people might like to leave behind medals as a legacy, or hang them on a wall, has escaped notice. Meanwhile, JROTC has full-sized medals, some of which are presented within days of turning in uniforms after their 3 or 4 (max) years.  Seems...odd.

I'd probably buy a set. Maybe units would even spring for a few, even if only as loaners for photo ops. ("Congratulations, Chester, proud to know you. Turn that way, smile...that was great. See Milton after the meeting, he'll give you a free ribbon, on the squadron, and an order form if you want your own medal. He'll also take that one back, don't spill anything on it...")

I'd like to see something like that for the "retiring" guys from CAP. It's very common in the military, but how often do the other senior members chip in a few bucks to put together a nice display case for someone moving on? In this case it's more of a cultural change that could be easily implemented- it only takes one person to make the suggestion for the pooling of cash for an order from Vanguard and a trip to the frame store based on a departing member's easily looked-up eServices record.

It would be nice to have the full size medals, but a nice display could still be made with the mini medals, skill badges, and possibly an accompanying ribbon rack (Ultra Thin makes a great product easily usable for display) to catch the awards that don't have a mini-medal.

Here's my (already-well-known) take on the topic, with an additional plea to our official supplier.  (Full disclosure - I posted this in the "Tribal Logo" thread in the Lobby.)

Attention Vanguard:

Do you want more of my money?  Of course you do.

Here's an idea ... offer something that I would buy.

For example (and this isn't the only example) ... why not offer full-size versions of the miniature medals?  I would most definitely buy those ... and so would many of the Senior Members of CAP. 

I know we don't wear them.  Members who earn the Distinguished Service Award or the Silver or Bronze Medals of Valor don't wear them after they're presented either.  But they'd look great in a shadowbox.  And at a suggested cost of $20 - $25 a pop, you'd get a good chunk of change just from me - look at the rack in my signature block and you'll see.  You're looking at $360 - $450 at the bare minimum.  And I'm not the only one who'd pay for them.

Don't offer me crap like this "tribal" logo or any other stuff you keep putting in your "New Items" part of the website.  Offer me something I want.

It's Marketing 101, folks, not rocket science.

Jack

Quote from: UH60guy on November 06, 2013, 01:13:53 PM
It would be nice to have the full size medals, but a nice display could still be made with the mini medals, skill badges, and possibly an accompanying ribbon rack (Ultra Thin makes a great product easily usable for display) to catch the awards that don't have a mini-medal.

The mini-medal idea isn't bad, but I (and a lot of other folks) would prefer to have full-size in such a display.  Just aesthetics, I suppose.

Jack

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 06, 2013, 12:23:45 PM
A CAP career can last over 70 years. But somehow, the idea that people might like to leave behind medals as a legacy, or hang them on a wall, has escaped notice. Meanwhile, JROTC has full-sized medals, some of which are presented within days of turning in uniforms after their 3 or 4 (max) years.  Seems...odd.

^^ This.  Right here.  A bloody fantastic reason for offering the full-size gongs.  Occasions to wear the full-size medals in the Real Military­® are few and far between ... but you get the medals.  Why don't we do that?  I have the full-size versions of the medals I won in JROTC back in the early 70s...

Quote
I'd probably buy a set. Maybe units would even spring for a few, even if only as loaners for photo ops. ("Congratulations, Chester, proud to know you. Turn that way, smile...that was great. See Milton after the meeting, he'll give you a free ribbon, on the squadron, and an order form if you want your own medal. He'll also take that one back, don't spill anything on it...")

Excellent way to use them for members!  National HQ, I know you read this forum ... you're hearing what some of your members want!

Jack

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 06, 2013, 02:21:31 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:14:32 AM

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

The ASR itself has little meaning...

There is the understatement of the evening.

No more understated than the Air Force Training Ribbon.  ;)

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 06, 2013, 12:10:12 PM
I'm not buying that. Not a'tall.

The last "Cold War" draftee to go to Germany without at least one US award was probably in 1960, maybe 1961, when the NDSM started to be awarded again following a break since the mid 1950's. But the ASR didn't come along until 1981. Are you really trying to convince anyone that they came up with a ribbon then to solve a problem that hadn't been around for 20 years?

And...point of order. ASR isn't a "decoration."

The idea was put forward then, just because it didn't get implemented until 1981 is just bureaucracy at its finest... kinda like getting a new 39.1 published.  ;)

And for Army regulations regarding the wear of Foreign decorations and badges, the ASR is considered a decoration. 

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 06, 2013, 08:46:37 AM
I was Army Guard 1982-1985 and that is not now I remember it. BTW, the last drafted soldier reported for duty in June 1973. The Army Achievement Medal was a good ideal, badly deployed. A friend of mine, his son got an AAM for doing well in Boot Camp.

No different than a Air Force Basic Military Training Honor Graduate Ribbon, the Army just didn't see the need for a separate award to be created.

Personally, I think the ASR and the AFBMTS ribbons were both started because of the end of the Vietnam War.

In those days....everyone go the NDSM....when the war ended now you had nothing there until you got your Good Conduct Medal.

So...I think the just made these ribbons to have something to go on that side of the uniform.

YMMV.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 06, 2013, 12:10:12 PM
I'm not buying that. Not a'tall.

The last "Cold War" draftee to go to Germany without at least one US award was probably in 1960, maybe 1961, when the NDSM started to be awarded again following a break since the mid 1950's. But the ASR didn't come along until 1981. Are you really trying to convince anyone that they came up with a ribbon then to solve a problem that hadn't been around for 20 years?

And...point of order. ASR isn't a "decoration."

The idea was put forward then, just because it didn't get implemented until 1981 is just bureaucracy at its finest... kinda like getting a new 39.1 published.  ;)

And for Army regulations regarding the wear of Foreign decorations and badges, the ASR is considered a decoration.

No. It's not a decoration. It's a service ribbon. Although, when it comes to serving the purpose of allowing wear of foreign decorations, 670-1 seems to consider it as the equivilant of a service MEDAL.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 06, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
Personally, I think the ASR and the AFBMTS ribbons were both started because of the end of the Vietnam War.

In those days....everyone go the NDSM....when the war ended now you had nothing there until you got your Good Conduct Medal.

Not just "those days".  I got a NDSM when I joined in the early 90's, and if memory serves me correct, new recruits are still getting them due to the War On Terror™.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 06, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
Personally, I think the ASR and the AFBMTS ribbons were both started because of the end of the Vietnam War.

In those days....everyone go the NDSM....when the war ended now you had nothing there until you got your Good Conduct Medal.

So...I think the just made these ribbons to have something to go on that side of the uniform.

YMMV.

From Wiki: The Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (SSDR) is a service award of the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps which was established in May 1979 and retroactively authorized to 14 August 1974, coinciding with a temporary suspension in authority for award of the National Defense Service Medal between that date and 2 August 1990.

Even in the Marines, we like a little bling bling too  8)

Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 05:34:59 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on November 06, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
Personally, I think the ASR and the AFBMTS ribbons were both started because of the end of the Vietnam War.

In those days....everyone go the NDSM....when the war ended now you had nothing there until you got your Good Conduct Medal.

Not just "those days".  I got a NDSM when I joined in the early 90's, and if memory serves me correct, new recruits are still getting them due to the War On Terror™.

The NDSM was authorized for 8/2/90 - 11/30/95 for the First Gulf War. Then again from 9/11/01 to present for the War on Terrorism.

When I was in the Marines we called it the "fire watch ribbon". Because that is what we did in Boot Camp and their is a back story to that   ;)

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 06, 2013, 12:10:12 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:14:32 AM

QuoteThe one that boggles my mind there is the "Army Service Ribbon." Isn't wearing the uniform enough indication that I'm in the Army?

Yes... and no.

The ASR itself has little meaning, but purpose behind it is sound. Back before the ASR was created, during the Cold War, draftee soldiers were getting sent to Germany and were being awarded German awards like the GAFET and the Schutzenschnur but could not wear them because regulations stated Foreign decorations could only be worn in conjunction with at least one (1) US decoration.

Since this was also before the Army Achievement Medal was created, most soldiers didn't see their first decoration until their Good Conduct medal was awarded at 3 years, which most draftees never saw, getting out at 2 years.

So the Army created the ASR, the most minor of decorations, so that those German (and other Foreign awards) could actually be worn when they were presented.

I'm not buying that. Not a'tall.

The last "Cold War" draftee to go to Germany without at least one US award was probably in 1960, maybe 1961, when the NDSM started to be awarded again following a break since the mid 1950's. But the ASR didn't come along until 1981. Are you really trying to convince anyone that they came up with a ribbon then to solve a problem that hadn't been around for 20 years?

And...point of order. ASR isn't a "decoration."

I'm not so sure about that. Depending on where you were on Germany, you might have still qualified for the Army of Occupation Medal. I'm not sure when the cut off was.

As I remember that era, the real reason for the ASR and the AF Training Ribbon was to recognize those who entered the military during what was then still called the All Volunteer Forces Training Concept. I always thought that it was more of a training device than anything, but I do know that the ASR was a little harder to get than the training ribbon. After all, for the AF Training Ribbon, all you had to do was complete "accession training" which could mean anything from two weeks (nurses, doctors, chaplains and lawyer orientation) to several months (OTS) depending on the program you were in. For the ASR, you had to graduate from AIT before you could wear it.

In my time, we called the AF Training Ribbon, the Battle of Lackland Award -- blue for the service you joined, yellow from the streak up your back from the training instructor, and red for the blood shed on the obstacle course. I never thought that the BMTS Honor Grad Ribbon was necessary. One person got it in my flight in 1977, but then I only ever saw it again 10 times. The reality of these ribbons, however, is that they recognize service that often times goes unrecognized. For example, the AF Overseas Service ribbons recognize completion of sometimes very remote tours in places like Alaska or Greenland where the weather is just has hostile as any possible enemy threat.

AF People seemed to warm up to the overseas service ribbons first because they recognized tangible completion of an overseas tour. The cutoff eligibility date for both ribbons is still September 1980.

A lot of people wouldn't wear the training ribbon at first. Then as it grew in popularity, they expanded the eligibility date to be retroactive to earlier periods of service as long as you still had some sort of military status. Now it's just as common as the NDSM.

As for me, the very first ribbon I ever earned was an AF Outstanding Unit Award in 1979, I think. I was always very proud of that because the first two I earned came from service with the 21st COMPW/TFW when that wing was part of the Alaskan Air Command. We were given individually mounted ribbons and little lapel pins. I still have both. The last one (my sixth) came in July 1991 and was presented by the Under Secretary of the Air Force during a formal ceremony when my wing was demobalized from Desert Storm wartime operations.

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 08:13:00 AM

Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 05:34:59 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on November 06, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
Personally, I think the ASR and the AFBMTS ribbons were both started because of the end of the Vietnam War.

In those days....everyone go the NDSM....when the war ended now you had nothing there until you got your Good Conduct Medal.

Not just "those days".  I got a NDSM when I joined in the early 90's, and if memory serves me correct, new recruits are still getting them due to the War On Terror™.

The NDSM was authorized for 8/2/90 - 11/30/95 for the First Gulf War. Then again from 9/11/01 to present for the War on Terrorism.

When I was in the Marines we called it the "fire watch ribbon". Because that is what we did in Boot Camp and their is a back story to that   ;)

Actually, the NDSM was created by Gen. Dwight Eisenhower as a "blanket campaign" medal to avoid a proliferation of military awards. To date, it has been awarded four times during four different periods of war or national emergency and joins the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal (created in the 1960s by President Kennedy) as the two oldest continually awarded service medals presented to American service members. The biggest difference between the NDSM and something like the ASR and the AF Training Ribbon is that you only have to serve one day on active duty to earn it. For the two ribbons, you have t complete the training.

Cadets at all of the service academies continued to receive the NDSM in between the periods where it was not awarded to the rest of the military (1975-1990 and 1995-2001).

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 07, 2013, 04:29:47 PM
Cadets at all of the service academies continued to receive the NDSM in between the periods where it was not awarded to the rest of the military (1975-1990 and 1995-2001).

They're SPECIAL!! Ironically unless they're prior service, their service dates don't start until they graduate.

Getting a medal for simply joining is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.  Can you say "participation trophy"?

QuoteI'm not so sure about that. Depending on where you were on Germany, you might have still qualified for the Army of Occupation Medal. I'm not sure when the cut off was.

Army of Occupation Medal, Germany Clasp (not all inclusive)
Germany (May 9, 1945 to May 5, 1955)
West Berlin (May 9, 1945 to October 2, 1990)

Quote from: Mustang on November 08, 2013, 05:16:01 AM
Getting a medal for simply joining is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.  Can you say "participation trophy"?

Oh I don't know, a little something for giving up many of your rights as a American Citizen deserves a little something, don't ya think?

Quote from: PHall on November 08, 2013, 05:56:20 AM

Quote from: Mustang on November 08, 2013, 05:16:01 AM
Getting a medal for simply joining is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.  Can you say "participation trophy"?

Oh I don't know, a little something for giving up many of your rights as a American Citizen deserves a little something, don't ya think?

Especially those of us that did so during a time of war...

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 07, 2013, 04:29:47 PM
Cadets at all of the service academies continued to receive the NDSM in between the periods where it was not awarded to the rest of the military (1975-1990 and 1995-2001).

Really? Not according to federal law. Check this out:

Title 32 - National Defense

Volume: 3

Date: 2008-07-01

Original Date: 2008-07-01

Title: Section 578.23 - National Defense Service Medal.

Context: Title 32 - National Defense. Subtitle A - Department of Defense (Continued). CHAPTER V - DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY. SUBCHAPTER F - PERSONNEL. PART 578 - DECORATIONS, MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND SIMILAR DEVICES. - General.

§ 578.23 National Defense Service Medal.
(a) Criteria. The National Defense Service Medal (NDSM) was established by Executive Order 10448, April 22, 1953, as amended by Executive Order 11265, January 11, 1966 and Executive Order 12776, October 18, 1991. It is awarded for honorable active service for any period between June 27, 1950 and July 27, 1954, both dates inclusive; between January 1, 1961 and August 14, 1974, both dates inclusive; between August 2, 1990 and November 30, 1995, both dates inclusive; and from September 11, 2001 to a date to be determined.

(1) For the purpose of this award, the following persons will not be considered as performing active service:

(i) Army National Guard and U.S. Army Reserve forces personnel on short tours of duty to fulfill training obligations under an inactive duty training program.

(ii) Any service member on temporary duty or temporary active duty to serve on boards, courts, commissions, and like organizations.

(iii) Any service member on active duty for the sole purpose of undergoing a physical examination.

(2) In addition to the conditions listed above, Executive Order 12776 extended award of the NDSM to all members of the Army National Guard and United States Army Reserve who were part of the selected Reserve in good standing during the period August 2, 1990 to November 30, 1995. During this period, soldiers in the following categories will not be considered eligible:

(i) Any soldier of the Individual Ready Reserve, Inactive National Guard or the standby or retired Reserve whose active duty service was for the sole purpose of undergoing a physical examination.

(ii) Any soldier of the Individual Ready Reserve, Inactive National Guard or the standby or retired reserve whose active duty service was for training only, or to serve on boards, courts, commissions and like organizations.

(3) On March 28, 2003, the President signed an amendment to Executive Order 10448 that extends the eligibility criteria for award of the NDSM to members of the selected Reserve of the Armed Forces of the United States in good standing during the period beginning September 11, 2001 to a date to be determined to be eligible for award of the NDSM.

(4) Any member of the Army National Guard or U.S. Army Reserve who, after December 31, 1960, becomes eligible for the award of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal or the Vietnam Service Medal, is also eligible for award of the NDSM. The NDSM may be awarded to members of the Reserve Component who are ordered to Federal active duty regardless of the duration (except for categories listed above).

(5) To signify receipt of a second or subsequent award of the NDSM, a service star will be worn on the service ribbon by U.S. Army personnel so qualified. Second or third award of the NDSM is authorized for soldiers who served in one or more of the three time periods as listed in paragraph (a) of this section. It is not authorized for soldiers who met the criteria in one time period, left active duty and returned during the same period of eligibility. (Service stars are described in § 578.61)

(6) Cadets of the U.S. Military Academy are eligible for the NDSM, during any of the inclusive periods listed above, upon completion of the swearing-in ceremonies as a cadet.

(7) The NDSM may be awarded posthumously.

(b) Description. On a Bronze medal, 11/4 inches in diameter, an eagle displayed with inverted wings standing on a sword and palm branch, all beneath the inscription “NATIONAL DEFENSE”. On the reverse is a shield taken from the Coat of Arms of the United States with an open wreath below it, the right side of oak leaves and the left side of laurel leaves. The ribbon is 13/8 inches wide and consists of the following stripes: 7/16 inch Scarlet 67111; 1/32 inch White 67101; 1/32 inch Old Glory Blue 67178; 1/32 inch White; 1/32 inch Scarlet; center 1/4inch Golden Yellow 67104; 1/32 inch Scarlet; 1/32 inch White; 1/32 inch Old Glory Blue; 1/32 inch White; and 7/16 inch Scarlet.

Quote from: PHall on November 08, 2013, 05:56:20 AM

Quote from: Mustang on November 08, 2013, 05:16:01 AM
Getting a medal for simply joining is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.  Can you say "participation trophy"?

Oh I don't know, a little something for giving up many of your rights as a American Citizen deserves a little something, don't ya think?

I thought that was why we receive the Loyal Order of the LES.

Quote from: 68w10 on November 08, 2013, 06:18:01 AM
Especially those of us that did so during a time of war...

But the Army Service Ribbon doesn't differentiate that, the National Defense Service Medal does.

There is very little that the ASR tells someone that the uniform itself doesn't.

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 07, 2013, 05:01:07 PM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 07, 2013, 04:29:47 PM
Cadets at all of the service academies continued to receive the NDSM in between the periods where it was not awarded to the rest of the military (1975-1990 and 1995-2001).

They're SPECIAL!! Ironically unless they're prior service, their service dates don't start until they graduate.

I've discussed this with a couple of midshipman.  Yes, their service dates don't start until they graduate but because they are members of the IRR there PEBD is when they start their respective academy.  So When they graduate they are automatically being paid as a O1 over 4.  I've found this to be true only for service academy grads but not the other Commissioning programs unless they were prior enlisted.

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 08, 2013, 01:17:35 PMBut the Army Service Ribbon doesn't differentiate that, the National Defense Service Medal does.

There is very little that the ASR tells someone that the uniform itself doesn't.

On a sidenote from my Army Guard days; Our nickname for the Army Service Ribbon was ' the Gay Pride ribbon', it is so, well pretty   8)

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 09, 2013, 04:53:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 08, 2013, 01:17:35 PMBut the Army Service Ribbon doesn't differentiate that, the National Defense Service Medal does.

There is very little that the ASR tells someone that the uniform itself doesn't.

On a sidenote from my Army Guard days; Our nickname for the Army Service Ribbon was ' the Gay Pride ribbon', it is so, well pretty   8)

Now that DADT is gone, the name fits!

Quote from: PHall on November 09, 2013, 06:32:24 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 09, 2013, 04:53:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 08, 2013, 01:17:35 PMBut the Army Service Ribbon doesn't differentiate that, the National Defense Service Medal does.

There is very little that the ASR tells someone that the uniform itself doesn't.

On a sidenote from my Army Guard days; Our nickname for the Army Service Ribbon was ' the Gay Pride ribbon', it is so, well pretty   8)

Now that DADT is gone, the name fits!

Now that is funny   :clap:

Ask the commander in EServices.  I think its a great fund producing Idea and would be a great thing for shadow boxes.

I was in Norfolk Virginia for business last week and stopped at Vanguard to pick up some items. I took a picture of some sample ribbon racks showing a full size as as well as a mini medal rack.

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

How common is a "promotion night" among squadrons? Our cadet promotions just happen on whatever meeting night they are eligible, and I've never seen a senior recognized at a meeting, though there have only been two senior promotions since I've been there. I should be getting my 2dLt any minute now (before meeting tomorrow night, I'm hoping), and admit public recognition would be kind of nice to have. Not that I joined for recognition, but still.

Quote from: BHartman007 on November 18, 2013, 03:03:43 AM

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

How common is a "promotion night" among squadrons? Our cadet promotions just happen on whatever meeting night they are eligible, and I've never seen a senior recognized at a meeting, though there have only been two senior promotions since I've been there. I should be getting my 2dLt any minute now (before meeting tomorrow night, I'm hoping), and admit public recognition would be kind of nice to have. Not that I joined for recognition, but still.

Most of the units I've been in have had promotions in front of the squadron - in formation if possible, or in front of the classroom if not.

Quote from: BHartman007 on November 18, 2013, 03:03:43 AM

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

How common is a "promotion night" among squadrons? Our cadet promotions just happen on whatever meeting night they are eligible, and I've never seen a senior recognized at a meeting, though there have only been two senior promotions since I've been there. I should be getting my 2dLt any minute now (before meeting tomorrow night, I'm hoping), and admit public recognition would be kind of nice to have. Not that I joined for recognition, but still.

We make it a point to devote time during the first meeting of the month for promotions and awards to give a chance to recognize all members' achievements in front of the squadron. I find it a good way to start the month.

That said, I do like the idea of full-size medals, as while we can't wear them on a uniform, they would be awesome for shadow boxes, as others have said. I think that we don't need every award to have a medal equivalent, as the Armed Forces have several ribbons with no full-size medal equivalent. However, many of our awards would be great to have medals to go with to display with pride.

Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on November 18, 2013, 03:50:35 AM

Quote from: BHartman007 on November 18, 2013, 03:03:43 AM

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

How common is a "promotion night" among squadrons? Our cadet promotions just happen on whatever meeting night they are eligible, and I've never seen a senior recognized at a meeting, though there have only been two senior promotions since I've been there. I should be getting my 2dLt any minute now (before meeting tomorrow night, I'm hoping), and admit public recognition would be kind of nice to have. Not that I joined for recognition, but still.

We make it a point to devote time during the first meeting of the month for promotions and awards to give a chance to recognize all members' achievements in front of the squadron. I find it a good way to start the month.

That said, I do like the idea of full-size medals, as while we can't wear them on a uniform, they would be awesome for shadow boxes, as others have said. I think that we don't need every award to have a medal equivalent, as the Armed Forces have several ribbons with no full-size medal equivalent. However, many of our awards would be great to have medals to go with to display with pride.

So what's stopping you from making a shadow box with the miniature medals?

Quote from: PHall on November 18, 2013, 05:40:46 AM

Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on November 18, 2013, 03:50:35 AM

Quote from: BHartman007 on November 18, 2013, 03:03:43 AM

Quote from: MacGruff on November 02, 2013, 11:54:41 PM
In our squadron all promotions are handled during promotion night. Cadet or Senior - makes no difference.

How common is a "promotion night" among squadrons? Our cadet promotions just happen on whatever meeting night they are eligible, and I've never seen a senior recognized at a meeting, though there have only been two senior promotions since I've been there. I should be getting my 2dLt any minute now (before meeting tomorrow night, I'm hoping), and admit public recognition would be kind of nice to have. Not that I joined for recognition, but still.

We make it a point to devote time during the first meeting of the month for promotions and awards to give a chance to recognize all members' achievements in front of the squadron. I find it a good way to start the month.

That said, I do like the idea of full-size medals, as while we can't wear them on a uniform, they would be awesome for shadow boxes, as others have said. I think that we don't need every award to have a medal equivalent, as the Armed Forces have several ribbons with no full-size medal equivalent. However, many of our awards would be great to have medals to go with to display with pride.

So what's stopping you from making a shadow box with the miniature medals?

Very true. Nothing stops me from doing that, but if said full-size medals were considered and created, I would definitely consider buying them to create a shadow box. Having made shadow boxes for both my father and grandfather, as well as seen ones with mini-medals, I prefer the look of full-size, hence my agreement with others on the possible viability of such products.

Now, the one thing stopping me from making a shadow box in general is that I am still very much active and have many more years to give before I consider fading off into the sunset and looking at the box on the wall.;)

Well, in the Air Force only about two-thirds of the ribbons have a corresponding medal.
Example: On my Air Force uniform I have 21 Federal and 6 State ribbons but I only have 16 Federal and 3 State medals.

In CAP every ribbon has a medal.

Quote from: PHall on November 18, 2013, 06:41:41 AM
Well, in the Air Force only about two-thirds of the ribbons have a corresponding medal.
Example: On my Air Force uniform I have 21 Federal and 6 State ribbons but I only have 16 Federal and 3 State medals.

In CAP every ribbon has a medal.

Seriously? In CAP there are no "ribbon only" awards?

Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 07:49:10 AM

Quote from: PHall on November 18, 2013, 06:41:41 AM
Well, in the Air Force only about two-thirds of the ribbons have a corresponding medal.
Example: On my Air Force uniform I have 21 Federal and 6 State ribbons but I only have 16 Federal and 3 State medals.

In CAP every ribbon has a medal.

Seriously? In CAP there are no "ribbon only" awards?

Except, from what I can see, cadet ribbons. Since they aren't authorized to wear the mess dress it is pointless, and there are only a few cadet ribbons that can be worn as a senior member.

IIRC, the milestones have mini-medals.

The Homeland Security and Community Service ribbons don't have mini-medals (yet).

I would suggest that the following be offered as full-size medals by Vanguard:

Distinguished Service (already a full-size gong)
Exceptional Service
Meritorious Service
Commander's Commendation
Lifesaving
Achievement Award
National Commander's Unit Citation
Gill Robb Wilson
Paul E. Garber
Grover Loening
Yeager Award
Crossfield Award
Search and Rescue
Find
Disaster Relief
Red Service
Spaatz
Eaker
Earhart
Mitchell

N.B. - I don't list the SMV and BMV because they're 1) already full-size medals and 2) you can't get one unless you've earned one anyway.

I don't see a need for Membership or Leadership to have full-size, and any others could conceivably also be just ribbon-only.

Thoughts?

Jack

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 18, 2013, 10:54:37 AM
The Homeland Security and Community Service ribbons don't have mini-medals (yet).

I would suggest that the following be offered as full-size medals by Vanguard:

Distinguished Service (already a full-size gong)
Exceptional Service
Meritorious Service
Commander's Commendation
Lifesaving
Achievement Award
National Commander's Unit Citation
Gill Robb Wilson
Paul E. Garber
Grover Loening
Yeager Award
Crossfield Award
Search and Rescue
Find
Disaster Relief
Red Service
Spaatz
Eaker
Earhart
Mitchell

N.B. - I don't list the SMV and BMV because they're 1) already full-size medals and 2) you can't get one unless you've earned one anyway.

I don't see a need for Membership or Leadership to have full-size, and any others could conceivably also be just ribbon-only.

Thoughts?

Jack

Sir,

Not really completely understanding what every CAP ribbon/medal is awarded for I'll bow to your knowledge. The only thing I would add for discussion is that all US Military and most US civilian agency unit awards are ribbon only. Most of those are also framed with a gold metal border.

I see at least one award listed above that is clearly a unit award, I would recommend that it (and any others) remain as ribbon only award... and... just to chum the waters  a bit... maybe even add gold frames to those unit awards to conform to military standards.

Military or army standards?

Shuman, those are ARMY standards, they do things differently in the other services.
CAP mostly follows Air Force standards.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2013, 01:37:57 AM
Military or army standards?

About half and half actually. In descending order:

USA and USAF PUC - Framed.
USN/USMC and USCG PUC - Unframed.

JMUC - Framed.

USA VUA - Framed.
USAF GUC - Unframed.

USN/USMC and USCG Unit Citation - Unframed.

USA MUC - Framed.
USAF, USN/USMC, and USCG MUC - Unframed.

USA SUA - Framed.
USAF OUA - Unframed.
USCG MTC - Unframed.

USAF OEA - Unframed.
USN/USMC and USCG "E" Ribbon - Unframed.

Common Civilian Unit Awards (Seen on Military Uniforms):
DOT SOUA - Framed.
PHS OUC - Unframed.
PHS SUC - Unframed.
NOAA UCA - Unframed.

Common Foreign Unit Awards (Seen on Military Uniforms):
RoP PUC - Framed.
RoK PUC - Framed.
RVN PUC - Framed.
RVN GCUC - Framed.
RVN CAMUC - Framed.

National Guard and State Defense Force Awards:
Too many to list but almost all unit awards are Framed.

None of the above are medals, ALL are ribbon only awards.

The Frames may be a majority US Army thing but all unit awards, regardless of Service, are ribbon only.

As an edited note to my suggestion:

Since CAP's highest unit award appears to be the National Commander's Unit Citation; and as the Air Forces highest unit award is the Presidential Unit Citation, which is a ribbon only - framed award; shouldn't the CAP NCUC be a ribbon only award with a gold frame?

Quote from: SarDragon on November 18, 2013, 10:03:03 AM
IIRC, the milestones have mini-medals.

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

Frames? We don't need no steenking frames!

Really - why do we need frames?

Frames suck. They add cost and complexity to the ribbon rack, and have little historical basis in CAP terms.

I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 19, 2013, 01:27:40 AM

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 18, 2013, 10:54:37 AM
The Homeland Security and Community Service ribbons don't have mini-medals (yet).

I would suggest that the following be offered as full-size medals by Vanguard:

Distinguished Service (already a full-size gong)
Exceptional Service
Meritorious Service
Commander's Commendation
Lifesaving
Achievement Award
National Commander's Unit Citation
Gill Robb Wilson
Paul E. Garber
Grover Loening
Yeager Award
Crossfield Award
Search and Rescue
Find
Disaster Relief
Red Service
Spaatz
Eaker
Earhart
Mitchell

N.B. - I don't list the SMV and BMV because they're 1) already full-size medals and 2) you can't get one unless you've earned one anyway.

I don't see a need for Membership or Leadership to have full-size, and any others could conceivably also be just ribbon-only.

Thoughts?

Jack

Sir,

Not really completely understanding what every CAP ribbon/medal is awarded for I'll bow to your knowledge. The only thing I would add for discussion is that all US Military and most US civilian agency unit awards are ribbon only. Most of those are also framed with a gold metal border.

I see at least one award listed above that is clearly a unit award, I would recommend that it (and any others) remain as ribbon only award... and... just to chum the waters  a bit... maybe even add gold frames to those unit awards to conform to military standards.

In the Air Force, there's also a distinction between awards and medals. Unit Citations are not medals, hence they come in "ribbon only" form. CAP, on the other hand, has no medals per se. But all awards have mini medals to be worn on the mess dress uniform, as appropriate.

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

It was simply a suggestion... don't blow it out of proportion.  ???

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Let's not forget that the Air Force was originally an Army Corps and a lot of even our history and traditions (and the first Air Force and CAP uniforms) have an Army origin.

As far as frames around ribbons, however, can we agree to disagree and simply avoid walking down that path. First, frames around ribbons are a hassle. Second, (and probably most importantly) is the cost. Third, would be to avoid what happened many times on active duty when people were awarded something like the RVN Cross of Gallantry unit award, but they would take the frame off and try to pass it off as an individual award.

If we are successful in getting NHQ and Vanguard to mint full-sized medals for purchase, I would hope that NHQ would take the next step and shrink the certificates to a more manageable size.

I have a booklet on the awards presented to the uniformed corps of the Public Health Service. What I like about their awards and decorations program (which is small in comparison to even the CAP's awards, is that they award a certificate for every ribbon -- which might be a nice token to a CAP member in place of handing them a Form 2A (in most cases) and a ribbon.

I don't know, my Mitchell/Earhart awards look awesome in the current size. The WBA seems underwhelming compare to the rest of the Milestones.

Quote from: shuman14 on November 20, 2013, 12:42:15 AM
It was simply a suggestion... don't blow it out of proportion.  ???

But if every suggestion is "Do it like the Army does" and comes from someone who has never served a day in CAP (although I do appreciate your check as a Patron member), I hope you can see how it can become tedious.

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 20, 2013, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on November 20, 2013, 12:42:15 AM
It was simply a suggestion... don't blow it out of proportion.  ???

But if every suggestion is "Do it like the Army does" and comes from someone who has never served a day in CAP (although I do appreciate your check as a Patron member), I hope you can see how it can become tedious.

But it wasn't "like the Army does"... EVERY Services' unit awards are ribbon only.  ???

Quote from: stillamarine on November 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

The Hudson High vs Canoe U. Mud Wrestling Championship only matters to those who actually attended these  institutions go lower learning.

Oh, it matters to my family, and not one of us has attended Canoe U. We have a total of 137 years of Naval service. YMMV.

Same here. I never attended. But I watch that game with as much interest as the Michigan and Ohio Sucks....I mean State.

Bored and did a little reseach and compiled a list of all National Guard unit awards for reference. In alphabetical Order:

Alaska Governors Distinguished Unit Citation – Framed

California Governor's Outstanding Unit Citation – Framed
California Commanding General's Meritorious Unit Citation – Framed

Colorado TAG Outstanding Unit Citation – Unframed

Connecticut Outstanding Unit Award – Unframed

Delaware National Guard Governor's Meritorious Unit Award – Framed
Delaware National Guard Unit Strength Award – Framed

District of Columbia Commanding General's Outstanding Unit Award – Unframed

Florida Governor's Meritorious Unit Citation – Framed

Georgia Distinguished Unit Ribbon – Framed

Idaho Governor's Outstanding Unit Citation – Framed
Idaho Adjutant General's Excellence Award – Framed
Iowa Outstanding Unit Award – Framed

Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation – Framed

Maine Adjutant General Award – Unframed
Maine Commander's Award – Unframed

Maryland Adjutant General's Special Recognition Ribbon – Framed

Massachusetts Meritorious Unit Citation – Framed

Nevada Governor's Outstanding Unit Award – Framed

New Jersey Governor's Unit Award – Framed
New Jersey Unit Strength Award – Framed

New Mexico Outstanding Unit Citation – Framed

North Carolina Governor's Unit Citation – Framed
North Carolina Meritorious Unit Citation – Framed
North Carolina Outstanding Unit Award – Framed

North Dakota State Outstanding Unit Citation – Framed
North Dakota Governor's Outstanding Unit Citation – Framed

Oklahoma Governor's Distinguished Unit Award – Framed
Oklahoma Commander's Trophy Award Ribbon – Framed

Oregon Superior Unit Ribbon – Framed

Pennsylvania Governor's Unit Citation – Framed

Rhode Island Gubernatorial Unit Award – Framed

South Carolina Governor's Unit Citation – Framed

South Dakota Desert Storm Unit Citation – Framed
South Dakota Unit Citation – Framed
South Dakota Distinguished Unit Award – Framed

Tennessee Meritorious Unit Citation – Framed
Tennessee Distinguished Unit Citation – Framed
Tennessee Outstanding Unit Performance Commendation – Framed
Tennessee Volunteer Recruiting and Retention Unit Citation – Framed

Texas Governor's Unit Citation – Framed

Vermont Outstanding Unit Award – Unframed
Vermont Organizational Excellence Award – Unframed

Washington Unit Citation – Framed

West Virginia Distinguished Unit Award – Framed

Wisconsin Eisenhower Trophy Unit Citation – Unframed

As far as I can tell, all are ribbon only awards. Also some mentioned costs of frames, Scamguard carries a pair at $3.00 USC
http://www.vanguardmil.com/ribbon-attachments-frame-small-p-8809.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/ribbon-attachments-frame-small-p-8809.html), more than they're worth but not a wallet breaker by any means.

Quote from: shuman14 on December 04, 2013, 05:56:30 AM
Bored and did a little reseach and compiled a list of all National Guard unit awards for reference. In alphabetical Order:

I don't think I can ever get that bored.

Two things would make my counter argument to doing it like we do in the Army...

First, CAP as a USAF Aux should mirror USAF unit awards. I'm in the Army too and my understanding of the USAF is limited, but even a cursory Wikipedia search of USAF unit citations shows they're unframed except for the Presidential Unit Citation. I wouldn't go too far down the road of National Guard stuff as a) we can't wear it as a federal organization and b) you're going to get 50 different cultures of how things are done.

Second, unlike the Army, CAP and USAF ribbon racks do not allow the 1/8 inch spacing between ribbons. Frames are fine when in the Army we wear the ribbons on the right... but when converting my Army rack to an Army-CAP combined one I can vouch that it is a royal pain to get those frames on and off in the middle. Even on the USAF-sized versions of Army unit awards, those frames just don't fit well when other ribbons are adjacent.

Quote from: Panache on December 04, 2013, 07:19:22 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on December 04, 2013, 05:56:30 AM
Bored and did a little reseach and compiled a list of all National Guard unit awards for reference. In alphabetical Order:

I don't think I can ever get that bored.

+100. This confirms my "theory" that if you really want to work for CAP, it's possible to make the time. It may require posting less in CAP Talk and not doing unnecessary/irrelevant research, but it's definitely doable. ;)

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 21, 2013, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on November 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

The Hudson High vs Canoe U. Mud Wrestling Championship only matters to those who actually attended these  institutions go lower learning.

Just like the UCLA-USC game last weekend. How many posers went to that game? BTW what is happening at Petticoat Junction High School?  8)

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 04, 2013, 04:23:09 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 21, 2013, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on November 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

The Hudson High vs Canoe U. Mud Wrestling Championship only matters to those who actually attended these  institutions go lower learning.

Just like the UCLA-USC game last weekend. How many posers went to that game? BTW what is happening at Petticoat Junction High School?  8)

Do I sense a disgruntled Trojan fan here? >:D

Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 04, 2013, 03:10:22 PM

Quote from: Panache on December 04, 2013, 07:19:22 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on December 04, 2013, 05:56:30 AM
Bored and did a little reseach and compiled a list of all National Guard unit awards for reference. In alphabetical Order:

I don't think I can ever get that bored.

+100. This confirms my "theory" that if you really want to work for CAP, it's possible to make the time. It may require posting less in CAP Talk and not doing unnecessary/irrelevant research, but it's definitely doable. ;)

When you're sitting in a guard shack at 0300 and nothing is going on, you find things to occupy your mind. This was my my mind game last night.

Quote from: UH60guy on December 04, 2013, 01:33:07 PM
Two things would make my counter argument to doing it like we do in the Army...

First, CAP as a USAF Aux should mirror USAF unit awards. I'm in the Army too and my understanding of the USAF is limited, but even a cursory Wikipedia search of USAF unit citations shows they're unframed except for the Presidential Unit Citation. I wouldn't go too far down the road of National Guard stuff as a) we can't wear it as a federal organization and b) you're going to get 50 different cultures of how things are done.

Second, unlike the Army, CAP and USAF ribbon racks do not allow the 1/8 inch spacing between ribbons. Frames are fine when in the Army we wear the ribbons on the right... but when converting my Army rack to an Army-CAP combined one I can vouch that it is a royal pain to get those frames on and off in the middle. Even on the USAF-sized versions of Army unit awards, those frames just don't fit well when other ribbons are adjacent.

That's why I a mini-thin rack done up and don't have to deal with it.  ;)

Quote from: shuman14 on December 05, 2013, 02:06:18 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 04, 2013, 03:10:22 PM

Quote from: Panache on December 04, 2013, 07:19:22 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on December 04, 2013, 05:56:30 AM
Bored and did a little reseach and compiled a list of all National Guard unit awards for reference. In alphabetical Order:

I don't think I can ever get that bored.

+100. This confirms my "theory" that if you really want to work for CAP, it's possible to make the time. It may require posting less in CAP Talk and not doing unnecessary/irrelevant research, but it's definitely doable. ;)

When you're sitting in a guard shack at 0300 and nothing is going on, you find things to occupy your mind. This was my my mind game last night.

Fair enough. But the majority of CAP staff work can be done at home (or in a guard shack) when you don't have much else going on.

Quote from: PHall on December 04, 2013, 06:27:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 04, 2013, 04:23:09 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 21, 2013, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on November 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

The Hudson High vs Canoe U. Mud Wrestling Championship only matters to those who actually attended these  institutions go lower learning.

Just like the UCLA-USC game last weekend. How many posers went to that game? BTW what is happening at Petticoat Junction High School?  8)

Do I sense a disgruntled Trojan fan here? >:D

Not here, my ex is a USC alumni. They got what they deserve  ;)

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 05, 2013, 04:26:28 PM

Quote from: PHall on December 04, 2013, 06:27:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 04, 2013, 04:23:09 PM

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 21, 2013, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on November 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 19, 2013, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
I think you should step back, and quit trying to change CAP into an Army look-alike.

As an Army guy myself, I don't always agree with the Navy but when I do I agree with SarDragon.

Well like true Americans, lets settled this with a football game. Army/Navy December 14th.

http://armynavygame.com/ (http://armynavygame.com/)

That is how my adult children and I solve problems. BTW, Navy has an eleven game winning streak   8)

Go navy!!

The Hudson High vs Canoe U. Mud Wrestling Championship only matters to those who actually attended these  institutions go lower learning.

Just like the UCLA-USC game last weekend. How many posers went to that game? BTW what is happening at Petticoat Junction High School?  8)

Do I sense a disgruntled Trojan fan here? >:D

Not here, my ex is a USC alumni. They got what they deserve  ;)

My opinion exactly, but then I'm a bit biased, I went to Cal State Long Beach!

A college that does not have a football team since 1991?  :'(

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 06, 2013, 10:13:15 PM
A college that does not have a football team since 1991?  :'(

Better to not have a team then to have one and suck.