I know some of you have your senior members fall in for opening and closing ceremonies. Can some of you tell me how that works? Do SM make their own flight? Do they fall in behind the cadets? What about NCO's? How do they fit into that?
I would love to have everyone fall in for both opening and closing but not sure what the protocol for it is. My thoughts are that we need to set the example for the cadets. Oh and are there regs that say anything about the other falling in as well?
I would appreciate all the information I can get.
I think I mean formation!
We have two separate flights. The cadets to the left, and the SMs to the right. The cadets' flight forms off of the senior members.
We don't have any senior member NCOs, so that's a non-issue.
Are we segregating "Senior members" from "NCOs" already?
Most units I've been involved with had seniors in a formation with no distinction on one side and cadets in their flights on the other.
I'm guessing that the Senior members and cadets report directly to the Commander then?
How does all of that work?
And how would it work if there were only one or two senior members that are willing to do formations?
Would it be the commander then the DCC then the cadet commander then the flights? Or is it just the commander then the DCC?
So the NCO's fall in with the SM's then? I'm asking because we have 4 NCO's who think they should not fall into formation like the other cadets. Perhaps I should clarify NCO's as I may be using the wrong term. I think they refer to themselves as the Executive Detail. They are cadet NCO's.
Currently only the cadets fall in and sometimes SM's line up in a single line to the side for closing. Our NCO's don't really fall in at all.
I know I'm asking a ton of questions but I'm curious as to how to make this work!
In our squadron, the cadet First Sergeant or cadet Lieutenant will report to the Deputy Commander of cadets. The Deputy Commander of seniors will just count the number of people in formation. They in turn will (usually) report to the Leadership Officer who, in turn, will report to the Commander.
Again, we don't have any senior member NCO's so I can't answer your question. If you have cadet NCO's who feel like they're too good to get into formation, well, that's a leadership problem and somebody needs to have a good long talk with them.
Why shouldn't NCO cadets fall in with other cadets? They are cadets, aren't they?
In any event, if they are cadet NCOs, they do not belong with senior members. In squadrons that do this that I have seen, the senior members fall in by grade. If captains are there the captains fall in to the right followed to his left by Lts, then senior members without grade. If there are many, they form a second element again by grade.
Without knowing your squadron, I may be erring by calling those cadets Primadonas. If they are not, I apologize beforehand but that is what it seems from what you explain."I will not fall in with cadets, I am a member of the Executive detail." Then have them fall in as a separate cadet flight. But they do not belong among seniors.
Flyer
Quote from: DMinick on November 01, 2013, 12:34:18 AM
And how would it work if there were only one or two senior members that are willing to do formations?
If the CC says "form up" you form up or get out.
Cadet officers fall in with cadets as well correct? I'm still learning all of these terms and such so I feel like I'm just confusing everyone!! I appreciate the patience!!
Our commander does not ask the SM's to fall in, however, we are considering it. Right now, it would be voluntarily only. So in that instance, would the SM's willing to still make their own flight beside the cadet one? Would it be ok to use the cadet officers as element leaders only in formation or should they be their own element due to rank?
>All< Cadets fall into formation. No exceptions. Cadets fall into flight with their Flt Sgts and Flt CCs in the front.
Cadet Executive staff in the front, reporting in chain order.
I can't think of a single good reason to make the seniors formation voluntary. Either do it or don't, but don't do it 1/2 way.
The cadet NCO's would be the element leaders (the NCO's are Cadet Sergeant to Cadet Chief Master Sergeant) or cadet officers (Cadet 2nd Lieutenant or higher) would be the element leaders. The highest ranking cadet present would be the one who calls the cadet flight into formation, and would report to the Deputy Commander of Cadets (a senior member). After that cadet reports to the DCC, he/she falls into formation with the rest of the cadets.
I wouldn't allow the "executive detail" to have their own flight. They're supposed to be the cadets' leaders. They should be in the same formation with them.
As for the senior members, personally, if any senior members are forming up, they should all be forming up. It's not "pick or choose". Like Eclipse said, if the CC says "form up", then form up or go home. If the CC doesn't want SMs forming up, that is his/her prerogative.
In my old composite squadron, the seniors would fall in to the left in a flight.
In our squadron the Seniors fall in on the right with the Deputy Commander of Cadets as the flight Sergent, the Deputy Commander of Seniors as the Flight Leader. the Cadets fall in to the left of the Seniors and the Cadet First Sergeant takes the report and reports to the Squadron Commander. It took a long time to get everyone to look right and perform their duties but these days they lookmgoodin formation and the Squadron Commander gets a proper report.
Quote from: DMinick on November 01, 2013, 12:15:51 AM
I know some of you have your senior members fall in for opening and closing ceremonies. Can some of you tell me how that works? Do SM make their own flight? Do they fall in behind the cadets? What about NCO's? How do they fit into that?
I would love to have everyone fall in for both opening and closing but not sure what the protocol for it is. My thoughts are that we need to set the example for the cadets. Oh and are there regs that say anything about the other falling in as well?
I would appreciate all the information I can get.
Our NCOs haven't arrived yet in the region. Probably shipping delays from NHQ, or at UPS.
I think a senior formation is a decent approach; it depends. That's better than a cluster of seniors wandering around.
All of our seniors stand for opening formation; closing formation depends on what's going on. Seniors are often wrapping up projects or reports long after the cadets are gone.
I thought I had a photo of the senior flight with the rest of the squadron.
Senior flight takes the senior spot on the right flank.
When the commander asks for a report, the senior flight commander (often the deputy for seniors, or me, cuz I'm a Lt Col and more D&C familiar than the deputy for seniors) reports, followed by the cadet commander.
Its probably not 100% right, but its how we've managed to do it.
Then you have this load of misfits.
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Quote from: NIN on November 01, 2013, 04:16:09 AM
I thought I had a photo of the senior flight with the rest of the squadron.
Senior flight takes the senior spot on the right flank.
When the commander asks for a report, the senior flight commander (often the deputy for seniors, or me, cuz I'm a Lt Col and more D&C familiar than the deputy for seniors) reports, followed by the cadet commander.
Its probably not 100% right, but its how we've managed to do it.
Then you have this load of misfits.
Fashion show?
Quote from: NIN on November 01, 2013, 04:48:07 AM
Quote from: JC004 on November 01, 2013, 04:30:22 AM
Fashion show?
Big joint-service sale at MCSS
(http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Quote from: Panache on November 01, 2013, 12:39:49 AM
In our squadron, the cadet First Sergeant or cadet Lieutenant will report to the Deputy Commander of cadets. The Deputy Commander of seniors will just count the number of people in formation. They in turn will (usually) report to the Leadership Officer who, in turn, will report to the Commander.
Why would the Deputy Commander for Cadets and the Deputy Commander for Seniors "report to the Leadership Officer"? The Leadership Officer is >NOT< in the chain of command or part of the formation (except maybe in the staff officer position). Furthermore, the Leadership Officer usually reports to the Deputy Commander for Cadets in composite squadrons. Both Deputy Commanders report to the Squadron Commander (Ref. CAPR 20-1).
While I have no problem with senior members participating in formation, the challenge is that seniors don't fall into a similar structure as the cadets do. The cadet organizational chart aligns much better to the squadron formation structure, than the senior does.
According to AFI 33-2203, the first sergeant calls the squadron into formation. The the flight sergeants then call their respective flights. The flight sergeants report to the first sergeant, who in turn reports to the squadron commander when he or she arrives. At that point, the flight commanders take their positions in front of their flights when the first sergeant is relieved (posted) by the commander. Since the first sergeant will typically be a cadet (senior members don't have first sergeants), is the senior member in charge of the senior flight reporting to a cadet NCO?
A formation with both seniors and cadets, while possible, would have to be modified a bit. For most circumstances, though, it would be preferred for the cadets to do a separate formation as this is part of their drill curriculum required for promotions and they should used all or most positions prescribed in AFI 33-2203 and the Cadet Drill Guide.
I forgot to add:
When we fall in, we're part of the formation, and online with the cadet flights.
The senior flight commander, however, is the prescribed # of steps ahead for the officers position, not the sergeant's position.
The cadet first sergeant forms the cadets takes his reports and reports to the cadet commander. About the time the cadet commander receives the report, if he has not already done so, the senior flight commander will call the seniors to attention. The commander then approaches the center of the formation, and directs "Report". Then the senior flight commander reports as does the cadet commander.
Its a composite squadron, and over the years we've done it a couple different ways, and this seems to be the way that works the best. It allows the cadets to execute their formation needs (NCOs, 1st Sergeant, etc) and still combines the seniors.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
Quote from: Panache on November 01, 2013, 12:39:49 AM
In our squadron, the cadet First Sergeant or cadet Lieutenant will report to the Deputy Commander of cadets. The Deputy Commander of seniors will just count the number of people in formation. They in turn will (usually) report to the Leadership Officer who, in turn, will report to the Commander.
Why would the Deputy Commander for Cadets and the Deputy Commander for Seniors "report to the Leadership Officer"? The Leadership Officer is >NOT< in the chain of command or part of the formation (except maybe in the staff officer position). Furthermore, the Leadership Officer usually reports to the Deputy Commander for Cadets in composite squadrons. Both Deputy Commanders report to the Squadron Commander (Ref. CAPR 20-1).
(shrugs) I'm relatively low on the food chain, so I don't question it.
Quote from: NIN on November 01, 2013, 04:16:09 AM
Then you have this load of misfits.
The Chinese called. They want their "Fire Drill Team" back ;)
For a time, we had a SM that would pull us into formation during closing. He's a ADRES & CAP Major and brought a nice military bearing to our unit. Most of the other SMs really didn't care to form up (I did), so when he moved it just went away. I liked the practice during closing, but I'm in the minority and our SDC has no interest in doing it.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
Quote from: Panache on November 01, 2013, 12:39:49 AM
In our squadron, the cadet First Sergeant or cadet Lieutenant will report to the Deputy Commander of cadets. The Deputy Commander of seniors will just count the number of people in formation. They in turn will (usually) report to the Leadership Officer who, in turn, will report to the Commander.
Why would the Deputy Commander for Cadets and the Deputy Commander for Seniors "report to the Leadership Officer"? The Leadership Officer is >NOT< in the chain of command or part of the formation (except maybe in the staff officer position). Furthermore, the Leadership Officer usually reports to the Deputy Commander for Cadets in composite squadrons. Both Deputy Commanders report to the Squadron Commander (Ref. CAPR 20-1).
While I have no problem with senior members participating in formation, the challenge is that seniors don't fall into a similar structure as the cadets do. The cadet organizational chart aligns much better to the squadron formation structure, than the senior does.
According to AFIAFMAN 33-220336-2203, the first sergeant calls the squadron into formation. The the flight sergeants then call their respective flights. The flight sergeants report to the first sergeant, who in turn reports to the squadron commander when he or she arrives. At that point, the flight commanders take their positions in front of their flights when the first sergeant is relieved (posted) by the commander. Since the first sergeant will typically be a cadet (senior members don't have first sergeants), is the senior member in charge of the senior flight reporting to a cadet NCO?
A formation with both seniors and cadets, while possible, would have to be modified a bit. For most circumstances, though, it would be preferred for the cadets to do a separate formation as this is part of their drill curriculum required for promotions and they should used all or most positions prescribed in AFI AFMAN 33-2203 36-2203 and the Cadet Drill Guide.
FTFY