I just was promoted to cadet second lieutenant and one of my old cadet commanders has offered me his old cadet officer service cap, when I looked up the regs in 39-1 it said that I needed wing commander approval to wear it as a cadet officer, how would I go about doing this?
Quote from: C/2d Lt Collins on October 18, 2013, 05:57:40 PM
I just was promoted to cadet second lieutenant and one of my old cadet commanders has offered me his old cadet officer service cap, when I looked up the regs in 39-1 it said that I needed wing commander approval to wear it as a cadet officer, how would I go about doing this?
Ask your commander to check with Group or wing - there is likely already supplement to this effect.
Nothing in there about it.
http://pawg.cap.gov/forms-and-publications (http://pawg.cap.gov/forms-and-publications)
Which means fire up the keyboard and ASCII ;-)
Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 06:00:50 PM
Quote from: C/2d Lt Collins on October 18, 2013, 05:57:40 PM
I just was promoted to cadet second lieutenant and one of my old cadet commanders has offered me his old cadet officer service cap, when I looked up the regs in 39-1 it said that I needed wing commander approval to wear it as a cadet officer, how would I go about doing this?
Ask your commander to check with Group or wing - there is likely already supplement to this effect.
Most wings "allow it", but don't have the supplement. Most others allow it, but don't mention the female cover.
And 'Congratulations' on the promotion!!
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 18, 2013, 08:57:03 PM
Most wings "allow it", but don't have the supplement. Most others allow it, but don't mention the female cover.
I'd bet a Venti 1/2 the CC's in CAP don't know that you >can't< just wear it if you want to.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 09:33:29 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 18, 2013, 08:57:03 PM
Most wings "allow it", but don't have the supplement. Most others allow it, but don't mention the female cover.
I'd bet a Venti 1/2 the CC's in CAP don't know that you >can't< just wear it if you want to.
Wouldn't even take you up on a trenta.
How about......just as your squadron commander.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
This has long been a thing. Most wings seem unaware it requires an approval for the optional wear. It seems kind of silly to require approval, as long as it's an optional thing. Just let cadets wear them if they want to. Restrict for specific activities if necessary.
PAWG doesn't have a lot of wing-level publications that fill in those gaps, like, for example, FLWG does.
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
JMHO, this is something that should be put into 39-1 and not something each wing commander should be approving. Most are probably "hey, whatever" about it anyway. They got bigger fish to fry.
Quote from: ol'fido on October 20, 2013, 01:50:12 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
JMHO, this is something that should be put into 39-1 and not something each wing commander should be approving. Most are probably "hey, whatever" about it anyway. They got bigger fish to fry.
It's in the 39-1. The 39-1 says that cadet officers can wear the service cap with wing commander approval.
There's also a line in the 39-1 that complience with the reg is mandatory too.
(Ref: CAPM 39-1, 23 MAR 2005, Fig 2-26, Note 1 and Fig 2-28, Note 1 and Para 1-1.)
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 02:21:05 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 20, 2013, 01:50:12 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
JMHO, this is something that should be put into 39-1 and not something each wing commander should be approving. Most are probably "hey, whatever" about it anyway. They got bigger fish to fry.
It's in the 39-1. The 39-1 says that cadet officers can wear the service cap with wing commander approval.
There's also a line in the 39-1 that complience with the reg is mandatory too.
(Ref: CAPM 39-1, 23 MAR 2005, Fig 2-26, Note 1 and Fig 2-28, Note 1 and Para 1-1.)
That's not what I meant. 39-1 should just say wear it or not. It shouldn't require wing king approval. I personally don't give a flying rip one way or another, but it's not something that we should have the wing cc having to approve or disapprove. Does that clear it up for ya?
Quote from: ol'fido on October 20, 2013, 02:36:43 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 02:21:05 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 20, 2013, 01:50:12 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
JMHO, this is something that should be put into 39-1 and not something each wing commander should be approving. Most are probably "hey, whatever" about it anyway. They got bigger fish to fry.
It's in the 39-1. The 39-1 says that cadet officers can wear the service cap with wing commander approval.
There's also a line in the 39-1 that complience with the reg is mandatory too.
(Ref: CAPM 39-1, 23 MAR 2005, Fig 2-26, Note 1 and Fig 2-28, Note 1 and Para 1-1.)
That's not what I meant. 39-1 should just say wear it or not. It shouldn't require wing king approval. I personally don't give a flying rip one way or another, but it's not something that we should have the wing cc having to approve or disapprove. Does that clear it up for ya?
I know what you're saying, but what's in the 39-1 is what we have to go by until the new 39-1 comes out.
And then we'll follow what it says.
And I wouldn't bet that the next 39-1 will say anything different then what the current one says either.
Quote from: PHall on October 20, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 20, 2013, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
I took that to mean that the squadron commander would/should know if it has been authorized by the wing commander.
I took it that by the time a cadet gets their Mitchell Award they should know how to look this stuff up.
But....it would appear that some Wings have no place where one can look it up. In fact, when I got my Mitchell Award, such was the case in CA Wing.
Count me among those who think that this is a silly thing to be left up to permission at the Wing level.
Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2013, 05:58:43 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2013, 05:38:52 AM
How about......just as your squadron commander.
It's a Wing Commander approval item. Which means only the Wing Commander can approve it. Period.
It they haven't approved it, then you don't wear it. Easy as that.
It's supposed to be in the Wing Supplement, but there's nothing saying they can't issue a seperate authorization.
But it needs to be published. VOCO's don't count...
Yes.....but your commander should know if it is approved or not.....and if he does not know...it is better for him to ask the wing commander instead of every Tom, Dick, and Harry cadet.
This should take no more than a minute currently. Hopefully they fix it. Make it for allowed wear, Phase IV only.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 20, 2013, 06:19:31 AMYes.....but your commander should know if it is approved or not.....and if he does not know...it is better for him to ask the wing commander instead of every Tom, Dick, and Harry cadet.
Not just better, that's the chain.
Rank and file members should not be going VFR direct to the wing CC for anything.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 20, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
This should take no more than a minute currently. Hopefully they fix it. Make it for allowed wear, Phase IV only.
Why only Phase IV cadets? Make it allowed for all cadet officers; no wing commander approval required. Let unit commanders and activity OICs decide when it's appropriate to wear or not. They determine what the UOD is anyways.
Other then uniformity, which is about 94th on the CAP Hot 100, why restrict it at all from anyone?
Company-grade service caps, especially older ones, are cheap and easy to find.
Amusing that a C/TSgt could wear a beret after NBB, but can't wear a wheel cap?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 04:45:28 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 20, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
This should take no more than a minute currently. Hopefully they fix it. Make it for allowed wear, Phase IV only.
Why only Phase IV cadets? Make it allowed for all cadet officers; no wing commander approval required. Let unit commanders and activity OICs decide when it's appropriate to wear or not. They determine what the UOD is anyways.
Seen too many cadets get their Mitchell and stop there. They got the boards, they got the wheel cap, and they don't want to do any more work. Make it Phase IV only and I'm sure you'll see a jump in Earhart numbers.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 21, 2013, 04:52:21 PM
Other then uniformity, which is about 94th on the CAP Hot 100, why restrict it at all from anyone?
Company-grade service caps, especially older ones, are cheap and easy to find.
Amusing that a C/TSgt could wear a beret after NBB, but can't wear a wheel cap?
You make a good point. Uniformity, especially in formation, is the only reason I can see to restrict their wear.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:07:28 PM
Seen too many cadets get their Mitchell and stop there. They got the boards, they got the wheel cap, and they don't want to do any more work. Make it Phase IV only and I'm sure you'll see a jump in Earhart numbers.
If a "wheel cap" is the only motivation for a cadet to pursue progression to Phase IV, then there's something wrong with either the program or the cadet.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 21, 2013, 04:52:21 PM
Other then uniformity, which is about 94th on the CAP Hot 100, why restrict it at all from anyone?
Company-grade service caps, especially older ones, are cheap and easy to find.
Amusing that a C/TSgt could wear a beret after NBB, but can't wear a wheel cap?
You make a good point. Uniformity, especially in formation, is the only reason I can see to restrict their wear.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:07:28 PM
Seen too many cadets get their Mitchell and stop there. They got the boards, they got the wheel cap, and they don't want to do any more work. Make it Phase IV only and I'm sure you'll see a jump in Earhart numbers.
If a "wheel cap" is the only motivation for a cadet to pursue progression to Phase IV, then there's something wrong with either the program or the cadet.
There are two main stumbling blocks to go from Mitchell to Earhart:
SDAs.
"Nothing else to get".
Personally, the way the SDA program is now, I wouldn't mind scrapping it. From what I've seen, most units don't actually do much besides taking the written reports. Some don't even do that.
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
How about grade, seniority, more leadership responsibilities and challenging opportunities? A cadet that needs a hat as motivation to be promoted, doesn't deserve to be promoted. That's not the purpose of promotions within CAP Cadet Programs. I also believe that if such trivialities are being used as incentive to progress in the program, then there's a failure in leadership within the unit.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
How about grade, seniority, more leadership responsibilities and challenging opportunities? A cadet that needs a hat as motivation to be promoted, doesn't deserve to be promoted. That's not the purpose of promotions within CAP Cadet Programs. I also believe that if such trivialities are being used as incentive to progress in the program, then there's a failure in leadership within the unit.
Average unit has 15-20 cadet ON books. Say 15-10 show up. MAYBE 1-2 cadet officers. I've seen too many stop at the Mitchell. By that point they are cadet commanders, and rarely meet other officers. Whatever the motivation, they lack it after that point.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 07:23:57 PMAverage unit has 15-20 cadet ON books. Say 15-10 show up. MAYBE 1-2 cadet officers. I've seen too many stop at the Mitchell. By that point they are cadet commanders, and rarely meet other officers. Whatever the motivation, they lack it after that point.
I have as well, but it's endemic to the system.
By Mitchell most cadets have already been in 3-5 years, that means they are 15-18 years old, and ready to "get on with it". Some just wanted the bump to E3, some age out (practically speaking), and some get distracted by life. The BSA and other youth groups have the same High School issues.
Considering the fairly increasing level of expectations as you approach Phase IV, I doubt a $10 hat is going to make much difference.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 07:23:57 PM
Average unit has 15-20 cadet ON books. Say 15-10 show up. MAYBE 1-2 cadet officers. I've seen too many stop at the Mitchell. By that point they are cadet commanders, and rarely meet other officers. Whatever the motivation, they lack it after that point.
This is why participation outside the unit is so important. That is how they will meet other officers and get the challenging opportunities they need. I've often seen friendly rivalries develop that bond them as friends and help push each other to continually work to improve.
I guess I got lucky when I got my authorization to wear one since I obtained it verbally from two sep Wing CC's and I was able to go straight to them.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 21, 2013, 07:49:13 PM
I guess I got lucky when I got my authorization to wear one since I obtained it verbally from two sep Wing CC's and I was able to go straight to them.
"Verbal authorization from a wing Commander"
That goes on the list just below "A cadet told me."
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
How about grade, seniority, more leadership responsibilities and challenging opportunities? A cadet that needs a hat as motivation to be promoted, doesn't deserve to be promoted. That's not the purpose of promotions within CAP Cadet Programs. I also believe that if such trivialities are being used as incentive to progress in the program, then there's a failure in leadership within the unit.
Other then grade......seniority? Most C/Lts don't have anyone senior to them as it is. More leadership responsibilities.....see the thread about cadet commanders as C/TSgt and even lower......so it is a been there done that situation.....challenging opportunities? Where? At the squadron? NCSAs are mostly only on during the summers...most CACs are non existent or are just a few boring meetings.
One of several problems with the program IMHO.
I would suggest a simple fix for it........and have before.......require Mitchell before you can be on encampment staff or go to NCSAs.
Quote from: Elioron on October 21, 2013, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 07:23:57 PM
Average unit has 15-20 cadet ON books. Say 15-10 show up. MAYBE 1-2 cadet officers. I've seen too many stop at the Mitchell. By that point they are cadet commanders, and rarely meet other officers. Whatever the motivation, they lack it after that point.
This is why participation outside the unit is so important. That is how they will meet other officers and get the challenging opportunities they need. I've often seen friendly rivalries develop that bond them as friends and help push each other to continually work to improve.
That's nice to say.....but not practical for many locations.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 07:58:25 PM
That's nice to say.....but not practical for many locations.
Why not? It's not unheard of for members to travel 300 miles to attend and staff events. If there aren't any events happening, make one up. Hold a leadership school, an ES training weekend, something!
There is a difference between not being practical and not having the desire to do something.
Quote from: Elioron on October 21, 2013, 08:15:23 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 07:58:25 PM
That's nice to say.....but not practical for many locations.
Why not? It's not unheard of for members to travel 300-600 miles to attend and staff events. If there aren't any events happening, make one up. Hold a leadership school, an ES training weekend, something!
There is a difference between not being practical and not having the desire to do something.
Cost, time, expertise.
There is also a difference between someone pointing something out and getting attacked for being lazy.
Here in NV we got one squadron that is 3-4 hours away from anyone else. How do they PUT on something that is not just for their squadron? I know I'm not driving my cadets 3 hours for something we can get here.
As I said.....saying we need more participation outside the squadron is not really a practical consideration IMHO.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 21, 2013, 07:52:06 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 21, 2013, 07:49:13 PM
I guess I got lucky when I got my authorization to wear one since I obtained it verbally from two sep Wing CC's and I was able to go straight to them.
"Verbal authorization from a wing Commander"
That goes on the list just below "A cadet told me."
This was also many years ago and the Wg CC was also the Sq CC >:D
Quote from: Elioron on October 21, 2013, 08:15:23 PMThere is a difference between not being practical and not having the desire to do something.
+1 - If your unit is struggling >and< you're not willing to venture out to seek activities and training elsewhere, you'll never get out of the rut.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 08:19:57 PM
There is also a difference between someone pointing something out and getting attacked for being lazy.
That wasn't attacking anyone for being lazy. I was sharing what I have seen here.
At the Olympic Air Show, a local event we put on, our Safety Officer, Communications Officer, Medical Asst, and several cadet staff members came from more than 300 miles away. The majority of participants were from more than 50 miles away even though there are 3 squadrons within that area.
The All Cadet SAREX commonly has cadets who drive more than 3 hours to get there.
If SMs aren't willing to drive 3-4 for an event then you may need to recruit more seniors as well. There is little that will stifle cadets' motivation more than senior members who don't support them (my squadron was a prime example for a long time).
First.....there is a difference between "we put on a big thing.....and people came from far away" and "Everyone needs to put on a big thing".
As Eclipse points out.....many units are "struggling"...that is they are small and have no desire/motivation/ability to expand.
Making small units do big things......is not the answer to promoting an environment where cadets want to advance beyond a certain point.
Second......if there is EVER such a thing as an "all cadet" anything......you are doing it wrong!
I got the regs to back it up.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
First.....there is a difference between "we put on a big thing.....and people came from far away" and "Everyone needs to put on a big thing".
As Eclipse points out.....many units are "struggling"...that is they are small and have no desire/motivation/ability to expand.
Making small units do big things......is not the answer to promoting an environment where cadets want to advance beyond a certain point.
Second......if there is EVER such a thing as an "all cadet" anything......you are doing it wrong!
I got the regs to back it up.
I was always taught that if you aren't willing to change something, don't complain about it. All I did was provide ideas for what has worked. If you don't want to do it then don't, but criticizing others because you aren't willing to try their ideas is not warranted.
We do that "big thing" every year, and we do it primarily to give our cadets leadership opportunities and to bring in leaders from elsewhere. The All Cadet SAREX has been held several times and is very successful. If you're going to get hung up on the name without any information about it (other than driving distance), there really isn't much I can do for you.
Nowhere did I say that everyone "needs" to do anything. The bottom line is that if there is a willingness, people can make it happen. Excuses are simply reasons for being unwilling. You can't force others to change. If they lack motivation they won't succeed anyway.
I was always taught to listen to other's opinions before a decision was made.
The suggestion was to require outside activities. I point out that would not be practical.
I already provided a suggestion to help with rank stagnation.....since neither you nor I are the decision makers....it is kind of moot anyway.
YOUR reply was that there was a difference between "not being practical and not having the desire to do something."
I took that to mean that you reject my concerns about practicality and attacked me for just being lazy....which you did again in this last post.
My unit does do the big things.....but I know that my unit is not a typical unit.....and we struggle to do the big things every year. But I know that for every unit like mine there are 10 that have half the man power, not nearly the experience in doing this sort of thing, and nowhere need the support that my unit has. So I am skeptical about mandating big operations outside the unit as a fix for rank stagnation.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
How about grade, seniority, more leadership responsibilities and challenging opportunities? A cadet that needs a hat as motivation to be promoted, doesn't deserve to be promoted. That's not the purpose of promotions within CAP Cadet Programs. I also believe that if such trivialities are being used as incentive to progress in the program, then there's a failure in leadership within the unit.
Other then grade......seniority? Most C/Lts don't have anyone senior to them as it is. More leadership responsibilities.....see the thread about cadet commanders as C/TSgt and even lower......so it is a been there done that situation.....challenging opportunities? Where? At the squadron? NCSAs are mostly only on during the summers...most CACs are non existent or are just a few boring meetings.
One of several problems with the program IMHO.
I would suggest a simple fix for it........and have before.......require Mitchell before you can be on encampment staff or go to NCSAs.
That may be true in many squadrons, but that's not CAP Cadet Programs as a whole. Even if it was, a service cap as "incentive" to progress to Phase IV is far from a solution.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 09:58:45 PM
I was always taught to listen to other's opinions before a decision was made.
The suggestion was to require outside activities. I point out that would not be practical.
I already provided a suggestion to help with rank stagnation.....since neither you nor I are the decision makers....it is kind of moot anyway.
YOUR reply was that there was a difference between "not being practical and not having the desire to do something."
I took that to mean that you reject my concerns about practicality and attacked me for just being lazy....which you did again in this last post.
My unit does do the big things.....but I know that my unit is not a typical unit.....and we struggle to do the big things every year. But I know that for every unit like mine there are 10 that have half the man power, not nearly the experience in doing this sort of thing, and nowhere need the support that my unit has. So I am skeptical about mandating big operations outside the unit as a fix for rank stagnation.
Let me try to be very clear about my position. We are a volunteer organization. As such we can't really require much of anything from our senior members. Senior members have, almost without exception, a lot going on outside of CAP. Being unwilling to volunteer an amount of time or effort is not equivalent to laziness. I suggested that if you don't have people willing to drive, try to find people that are. Nothing to do with laziness.
I haven't suggesting requiring anything from anyone. I suggested that if you don't have something, either find it or create it. If you can't do something yourself, find people who can. Squadrons are not independent agencies - we are all a part of a larger whole with larger resources. A lot of things are possible if you're willing to look outside and have people willing to do the work. If you don't have willing seniors, cadets, even if
they are motivated, will get frustrated.
This is coming from a squadron that overcame the very issue of stagnation. We had a lot of cadets that didn't see the point of promoting. They never participated in outside activities and saw no value in Wing events since they felt out of place. For a long time, there was no senior support even if they did want to do something. With a change in our leadership we tried to change the cadet culture. We encouraged more outside participation and opened up our annual air show to the Wing. Within a year, our squadron of 20 cadets had an Earhart, an Eaker, and two Mitchell's. We had cadets staffing several Wing activities and even at other Wings' encampments.
Changing the mindset is possible, but it takes senior involvement to enable it. It can take a lot of work. Recognizing if the issue is with the cadets or with lack of senior support (or both) is an important part of fighting stagnation. If you (or your seniors) equate unwillingness for laziness it's going to cause problems in your senior program. Seniors are willing to give what they're willing to give. You can often inspire more, but everyone has limitations. If you need what you don't have, the only way to get it is to find it elsewhere.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 10:29:06 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2013, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 21, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
As for the "nothing else to get", it's the opposite event horizon of "chief4lyfe". 2nd Lt is good enough for many, because you're not an NCO, but get the salutes, and are pretty much maxed out on bling.
How about grade, seniority, more leadership responsibilities and challenging opportunities? A cadet that needs a hat as motivation to be promoted, doesn't deserve to be promoted. That's not the purpose of promotions within CAP Cadet Programs. I also believe that if such trivialities are being used as incentive to progress in the program, then there's a failure in leadership within the unit.
Other then grade......seniority? Most C/Lts don't have anyone senior to them as it is. More leadership responsibilities.....see the thread about cadet commanders as C/TSgt and even lower......so it is a been there done that situation.....challenging opportunities? Where? At the squadron? NCSAs are mostly only on during the summers...most CACs are non existent or are just a few boring meetings.
One of several problems with the program IMHO.
I would suggest a simple fix for it........and have before.......require Mitchell before you can be on encampment staff or go to NCSAs.
That may be true in many squadrons, but that's not CAP Cadet Programs as a whole. Even if it was, a service cap as "incentive" to progress to Phase IV is far from a solution.
No....I did not suggest that the hat was in anyway shape or form a solution.
I was suggesting that we restrict the "fun" activities to Cadet Officers as an incentive for cadets to move beyond C/CMSgt.....and that's it.
:clap: :clap:
What about the female service cap? Does it still exist for cadets? I've only ever seen female SMs wear them.
Quote from: Elioron on October 21, 2013, 10:34:33 PM
Let me try to be very clear about my position. We are a volunteer organization. As such we can't really require much of anything from our senior members. Senior members have, almost without exception, a lot going on outside of CAP. Being unwilling to volunteer an amount of time or effort is not equivalent to laziness. I suggested that if you don't have people willing to drive, try to find people that are. Nothing to do with laziness.
I have to disagree. For some of our 'senior' Senior Members, CAP is their big event of the week. From a 'young' Senior Member perspective you have a day job, young family, etc, etc. Some grandparents do not see children or grandchildren until the holidays. Seeing a movie matinee is a big deal. Captain Philipps last week, Gravity this week, next week? Walmart shopping, I hope they have Fiber Choice orange flavor.
Bottom line recruit more seniors. 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 23, 2013, 07:12:57 AM
Walmart shopping, I hope they have Fiber Choice orange flavor.
We should start a movement!
(/rimshot)
Quote from: Pulsar on October 23, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
:clap: :clap:
What about the female service cap? Does it still exist for cadets? I've only ever seen female SMs wear them.
Yes Pulsar it does. It has the same restrictions as the male service cap. It is on or around page 19 of CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: Pulsar on October 23, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
:clap: :clap:
What about the female service cap? Does it still exist for cadets? I've only ever seen female SMs wear them.
Still exists... though AFI 36-2903 now allows females to wear the male service cap. (I know... it's not in the current CAPM 39-1!)
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 23, 2013, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: Pulsar on October 23, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
:clap: :clap:
What about the female service cap? Does it still exist for cadets? I've only ever seen female SMs wear them.
Still exists... though AFI 36-2903 now allows females to wear the male service cap. (I know... it's not in the current CAPM 39-1!)
wow...that's kind of... weird. Interesting
Quote from: Panache on October 23, 2013, 07:43:32 AMWe should start a movement!
Walk right in it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Quote from: Pulsar on October 23, 2013, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 23, 2013, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: Pulsar on October 23, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
:clap: :clap:
What about the female service cap? Does it still exist for cadets? I've only ever seen female SMs wear them.
Still exists... though AFI 36-2903 now allows females to wear the male service cap. (I know... it's not in the current CAPM 39-1!)
wow...that's kind of... weird. Interesting
(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/00/20091a7c-272e-53f8-836f-bd7111e561d3/520a7248996a3.preview-300.jpg)
Lt Gen Johnson, U.S. Air Force Academy superintendent.
Quote from: a2capt on October 23, 2013, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 23, 2013, 07:43:32 AMWe should start a movement!
Walk right in it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Curse you!! I know I'll have that popping up in my head for the next week!