CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: hogfan on August 19, 2013, 11:58:21 PM

Title: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: hogfan on August 19, 2013, 11:58:21 PM
Hi all.  I'm a low hours (~65 PIC) pilot and I'm getting ready to take my Form 5 ride and get going building my hours to become a mission transport pilot. 

Not being an orientation pilot, I know I can't fly with cadets.  My question is whether I can go get an airplane from our neighboring squadron and ferry it back down and not have to pay for the flying time since it's for o-flights.  The o-flight pilot would come up and fly the cadets, and I'd fly it back to it hangar afterwards....

I don't mean to sounds like I'm cheap, I'm just on a pretty tight budget and any free time at all would help me get to that mission pilot rating.

Thanks,
Hog
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 12:06:26 AM
O-ride ferry time has to be approved by the Wing O-ride coordinator and is strongly discouraged.

Usually they will be looking to take a least one cadet on a ride to another airport to pick up others,
or there has to be a good reason (such as the local plane in maintenance, etc.).  As a routine matter
of course, most wings won't approve it.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: a2capt on August 20, 2013, 12:09:50 AM
Ultimately, it's how your Wing Operations people want it.

But you can certainly fly the plane to/from the O-ride location as a TMP.  You can certainly fill out the CAPF99 as a TMP.

..and one CAPF 108 can be put in for the whole day, including the ferry time, if one person is going to get paid for the fuel, and the hobbs time comes from Wing's O-Ride budget. If TXWG has credit cards, then there's no money being dealt with from a members point of view, and the accounting for the aircraft is done all on Wing O-Ride funds, the details of the CAPF 99 are in line with the passenger load. A Ferry flight is just that. No cadets, it's not an O-Ride. If Ferry flights are permitted to use O-Ride money, (typically they are), then you fly the plane. Spend the day there, and bring it back. Don't see any harm there.

But do it the way Wing wants it. Not just on what we say.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: JeffDG on August 20, 2013, 12:11:20 AM
Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2013, 12:09:50 AM
Ultimately, it's how your Wing Operations people want it.

But you can certainly fly the plane to/from the O-ride location as a TMP.  You can certainly fill out the CAPF99 as a TMP.

..and one CAPF 108 can be put in for the whole day, including the ferry time, if one person is going to get paid for the fuel, and the hobbs time comes from Wing's O-Ride budget.

But do it the way Wing wants it. Not just on what we say.
He can't be a TMP for another 35h of PIC time, however.

I don't think you can be PIC on an AFAM without TMP, can you?  Or is that an OWT?
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: a2capt on August 20, 2013, 12:15:20 AM
Yes, I'm talking as TMP, now if you don't qualify for the TMP rating, that's a different problem. It's not going to happen in a CAP aircraft anyway. But somewhere in there you need to get that 100 hours of PIC and 50 X/C squared away too.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: Spaceman3750 on August 20, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 12:06:26 AM
O-ride ferry time has to be approved by the Wing O-ride coordinator and is strongly discouraged.

Usually they will be looking to take a least one cadet on a ride to another airport to pick up others,
or there has to be a good reason (such as the local plane in maintenance, etc.).  As a routine matter
of course, most wings won't approve it.

Except for, you know, when they do. 95% of all o-flight money I have secured has had ferry time and in each case has been approved. I would be raising a stink to a lot of people very quickly if I started getting denied ferry money, especially considering many of my units are AT LEAST an hour apart and the plane is in another group entirely 8 months out of the year.

What I love is when the wing king starts urging people to fly o-rides and says that there's plenty of money with more coming, and the OFO treats you like you're trying to take away one of his fingers when you ask to use it... BTDT
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: hogfan on August 20, 2013, 02:18:30 AM
Thanks for the information. I'm in the Texas Wing, I'll need to ask them and find out what the regs are here.

It's kinda strange, the pilot (that sometimes gives my cadets o-flights) ferries the aircraft about an hour one way to get here (usually solo). I can legally do the exact same thing, but I have to pay for it.

Seems like they would want me to gain hours, especially since we need pilots. Oh well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: a2capt on August 20, 2013, 02:57:25 AM
That may be the rub, you can't act as a TMP yet. Goofy sounding, perhaps. But there's a delineator someplace, but you can still fly the plane as a CAP member, with a Form 5.

So you can fly that aircraft, provided it's not a C182 or greater in performance, with your current amount of hours. 

Otherwise, you're only flying as a CAP Solo Pilot, and that's with specific sign offs. However, the regulation does not say the same pilot thats flying the cadets has to ferry the aircraft. But it does take a TMP to ferry the aircraft on that AFAM. So the mission will not pay for it if you're not qualified to fly on the mission.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 03:01:34 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 20, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 12:06:26 AM
O-ride ferry time has to be approved by the Wing O-ride coordinator and is strongly discouraged.

Usually they will be looking to take a least one cadet on a ride to another airport to pick up others,
or there has to be a good reason (such as the local plane in maintenance, etc.).  As a routine matter
of course, most wings won't approve it.

Except for, you know, when they do. 95% of all o-flight money I have secured has had ferry time and in each case has been approved. I would be raising a stink to a lot of people very quickly if I started getting denied ferry money, especially considering many of my units are AT LEAST an hour apart and the plane is in another group entirely 8 months out of the year.

What I love is when the wing king starts urging people to fly o-rides and says that there's plenty of money with more coming, and the OFO treats you like you're trying to take away one of his fingers when you ask to use it... BTDT

Get some active pilots who are able to participate with a drama ratio that is less than or equal to the expense and yo won't have this issue.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: Mustang on August 22, 2013, 05:09:14 AM
The OP suggested that he doesn't yet have a form 5, so the answer to his question is "no".
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: hogfan on August 24, 2013, 01:07:42 AM
Quote from: Mustang on August 22, 2013, 05:09:14 AM
The OP suggested that he doesn't yet have a form 5, so the answer to his question is "no".

Thanks. This whole question was based on my intention to get my form 5 done.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: BHartman007 on August 24, 2013, 11:21:21 PM
I thought you had to have 150 hours to become a TMP?
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: JeffDG on August 25, 2013, 12:01:55 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on August 24, 2013, 11:21:21 PM
I thought you had to have 150 hours to become a TMP?
100h of PIC
50 hours of XC

These can be combined.  I qualified as a TMP the moment I hit the 100h PIC time.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: BHartman007 on August 25, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 25, 2013, 12:01:55 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on August 24, 2013, 11:21:21 PM
I thought you had to have 150 hours to become a TMP?
100h of PIC
50 hours of XC

These can be combined.  I qualified as a TMP the moment I hit the 100h PIC time.

That's heartening. 60 hours to go instead of 110.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: a2capt on August 25, 2013, 02:35:08 AM
Piloting requirements are usually done where total PIC time is one, and everything else can be included in it, that said 100 hours PIC time, of which you need 50 hours XC, etc.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: JeffDG on August 25, 2013, 02:58:03 AM
Quote from: a2capt on August 25, 2013, 02:35:08 AM
Piloting requirements are usually done where total PIC time is one, and everything else can be included in it, that said 100 hours PIC time, of which you need 50 hours XC, etc.
Well, to be precise, the 50 hours of XC do not need to be PIC.  There is nothing that says the XC must be PIC time.  They are mutually independent requirements that may be fulfilled separately, or in many cases, are fulfilled at the same time.
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: a2capt on August 25, 2013, 03:45:07 AM
Well, okay. Though I have seen them specifically cite "PIC" time, not inclusive of "Solo" time. That would preclude any XC time during primary training. But the point is, it's not all to be added up together to form a total number, but that they can be tallied independently.

Though I would argue, any XC time is going to be added in some kind of command category. Solo, PIC, SIC, etc. ;)

Now, if back seat time, and even airliner seat time were able to be logged as XC ;)
Title: Re: Ferrying for O-flights
Post by: JeffDG on August 25, 2013, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: a2capt on August 25, 2013, 03:45:07 AM
Well, okay. Though I have seen them specifically cite "PIC" time, not inclusive of "Solo" time. That would preclude any XC time during primary training. But the point is, it's not all to be added up together to form a total number, but that they can be tallied independently.

Though I would argue, any XC time is going to be added in some kind of command category. Solo, PIC, SIC, etc. ;)

Now, if back seat time, and even airliner seat time were able to be logged as XC ;)
People say that about your primary instruction time, but that's not what the SQTR or the regs say.  They say 50h of XC, not 50h of XC-PIC time, not 50h of XC PIC time to airports >50 nm from the point of origin, etc.

The way it's written, your student XC time (including with instructor) counts.  So does the 5 nm hop from one airport to another.