Does anyone else have squadrons where the CC and other Senior Members bring children and grandchildren (I'm talking around 7 to 10 year olds) to weekly meetings? They aren't bad kids, but they are often disruptive and derail classes being taught by interrupting etc. I am trying to recruit cadets, but when their first exposure to a supposedly professional organization is a babysitting service, we usually don't see them again. I brought this up to the CC and for a couple of weeks the small children were segregated from the actual meetings, but that didn't last long.
What you are really saying is that there IS NOT a baby sitting service.
So....here's the rub. If the only way for a SM to come to meetings is to also bring their kids....you have to ask....is the service of these SM's worth the hassles.
As solution to the problem....maybe you can detail a SM to come up with some activities for the kids. Actually have a baby sitting service.
Good luck.
100% inappropriate.
I haven't been able to attend meetings for a while now as I don't have a sitter for my pad wans. I don't think it is OK and will not bring them to a meeting until it is time for them to decide if they want to join or not....
Babysitting is what I dislike about little league, girl's softball and scouting. Some parents just want a break from the children.
Now I have not had a 'babysitting' problem in CAP. But I am sure the Squadron in question most likely the CC does little league and scouting so he figures he can do the same.
Bring it from the point of view of safety. If the squadron meets in an airport or an armory, there are places where those kids can get injured. Get your safety officer involved in this. Also that there is interruption in the classes.Remind them.
Flyer
Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2013, 02:23:38 AM
100% inappropriate.
Free ranging and disruptive, sure not appropriate..... but just being there, maybe not. Needs to be well managed to be effective. (ie not be a disruption, be safe)
This (and I am sure there are many other circumstances) is one of them areas a squadron may need to work on supporting the membership in, especially to retain (or even recruit in some cases) quality senior members. Family situations change (some times unexpectedly) from the number of kids, to the income, to the availability of babysitting etc etc. You risk the potential of forcing the exclusion of those members; why when you may be able to make an easy work around to their situation. Thinking back to the squadron "booster club" thread, there is seemingly perfect solution to the "babysitting" issue. Either by providing the service (warm bodies) and/or helping to support the hiring of someone to do it (maybe even transportation if its not "on-site".... You may find it a solution to multiple problems with one fix (free ranging kids/unparticipating seniors/more support for off meeting activities and what to do with booster clubs/parents that want to help out but dont want to put on a uniform/be a "member")
just a little thinking outside the box....
mk
Some years ago I was an encampment commander for a large wing, and I noticed that -- demographically speaking -- a significant number of our tactical officers had children young enough to make taking a week off marriage threatening. ("You're not sticking ME with these kids for a week while you go off playing at encampment!" >:( )
And several were CAP couples either of which would have been welcome as tacs.
So I came up with the bright idea of a "Tactical Officer Day Care Center." The concept was to have a family housing unit with a dedicated CAP spouse / member that would watch youngsters during the day while the Tac mom / dad was at encampment. My nose counting suggested we would have about 6-8 kids, which seemed managable. They could go to the pool, base library, etc. as a group and keep busy during the day. I found an experienced parent member who thought it would be fun to organize and run it.
I figured it was totally win-win. I'd get all the young cool Tacs for the troops and the parental Tacs could enjoy having their kids in a safe environment.
It was all good until I was arranging the family quarters and foolishly mentioned my brilliant idea to the Housing folks. The Air Force said "Great idea, but absolutely not." Apparently there are rules and regulations for running a day care center on an AF base.
So it absolutely did not happen. What a shame.
But I heard that a member who was also a dependant did seem to have a large number of her kids friends over for visits in her quarters. Probably just a coincidence.
Like with many such issues, such as a member not wearing a uniform to a meeting, occasional allowances are fine, however, it shouldn't be a regular thing.
I look at it as is just simply an obstacle that needs to be overcome, circumvented, eliminated to get the mission done.
Problem 1) SM A can't attend meetings unless he brings his kid.
Problem 2) Kid A is disruptive to CAP meeting.
So....get out your leadership books and start some problem solving.
As with each and every situation we meet as we complete our missions.....the problem is unique to the local situation. Find a solution. But keep and open mind about what can and cannot be done.
Good luck.
Quote from: Ned on June 18, 2013, 05:34:27 PM
Some years ago I was an encampment commander for a large wing, and I noticed that -- demographically speaking -- a significant number of our tactical officers had children young enough to make taking a week off marriage threatening. ("You're not sticking ME with these kids for a week while you go off playing at encampment!" >:( )
And several were CAP couples either of which would have been welcome as tacs.
So I came up with the bright idea of a "Tactical Officer Day Care Center." The concept was to have a family housing unit with a dedicated CAP spouse / member that would watch youngsters during the day while the Tac mom / dad was at encampment. My nose counting suggested we would have about 6-8 kids, which seemed managable. They could go to the pool, base library, etc. as a group and keep busy during the day. I found an experienced parent member who thought it would be fun to organize and run it.
I figured it was totally win-win. I'd get all the young cool Tacs for the troops and the parental Tacs could enjoy having their kids in a safe environment.
It was all good until I was arranging the family quarters and foolishly mentioned my brilliant idea to the Housing folks. The Air Force said "Great idea, but absolutely not." Apparently there are rules and regulations for running a day care center on an AF base.
So it absolutely did not happen. What a shame.
But I heard that a member who was also a dependant did seem to have a large number of her kids friends over for visits in her quarters. Probably just a coincidence.
That was an excellent ideal but Base Management does have the last say.
Ned-
Picking up on that idea, was there a squadron or group office nearby that you could have used as the actual place of the day care during the day? After hours, I am not sure, could the kids have stayed with their families in a separate barracks? The day care service could have run as a detached service of the encampment but outside the base...
Flyer
@ Ned... Awesome idea.
On the topic... I'm a DCC for a unit. I'm a single dad. I have a 7 year old son. Does he come with? You bet. All the time? No. We meet Saturday mornings and probably one or two a month he's with.
It would need to be a trade off... Without the ability to bring him I could not maintain my activity level. Considering the unit has experienced 400% cadet growth(from 8 to 32), two Eakers, three Earharts, and a Spaatz since I took over I think the unit has benefited from the trade off.
With that said there are a lot of variables here. Our facility is fairly large so it's easy for him to not be underfoot. A squadron that meets in one room would be a much harder situation. A squadron without lots of other seniors to carry the burden would be hard too.
At the same time he proves to be useful at times. Need a lost person (within limits)? Need someone not too heavy to be litter carried? Need someone to put away uniforms in the supply room?
And of course there's always the parenting question. Each parent has their own skillsets, strengths, and weaknesses.
Lastly it also is a question of squadron culture. Some squadrons are more on the military side of things, other have a more family flavor.
I will say this... He's one of the only 7 year olds I know that can do facing movements, flanks, salute well, and square his corners :)
Not wanting to be around children is one of the main reasons that many senior members seek out senior only squadrons. Some seniors who do work with cadets prefer the older ones (~16+) and prefer not to be around younger ones. So when another senior then brings his little ones to squadron meetings and events, it can have a dampening effect on the desire for some to be there. Hire a babysitter or have a family member watch them.
Quote from: MajorM on June 19, 2013, 08:49:46 PMAt the same time he proves to be useful at times. Need a lost person (within limits)? Need someone not too heavy to be litter carried? Need someone to put away uniforms in the supply room?
Those would be CAP activities. Not allowed for non-members. The minimum age for members is "12", ergo.
CAP does not, and shouldn't have the "social" culture of an organization like the Boy Scouts, which has a different vector. As a paramilitary organization, there should be some fairly
bright lines.
Somehow that's never been my experience... The seniors who avoid cadets certainly aren't doing it because a random young child may or may not appear.
Like Patron Status
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:)
Each situation is different. If you have a problem at your squadron....take it up with your chain of command.
Anything that gets in the way of getting the mission done...should be canned and/or fixed.
This goes both ways......if family members (of any age) at a meeting are deferential to the mission...fix it.
If this means ban them....that is one solution.
If this means providing them with non-CAP activities....that is one solution.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 19, 2013, 11:37:07 PM
.... Hire a babysitter or have a family member watch them.
Wow, who would have thought it was that easy. Are there any other of lifes problems that could be so easily solved.....
Problem: "I dont meet height and weight standards for BDU's" Solution "Just loose weight"
Problem: "Our squadron has no reliable transportation" Solution "Buy your own van"
Problem: "We have inadequate meeting facilities" Solution "Build a new building"
mk
^ That >is< the solution.
And if that doesn't work, don't come until you're able to make proper accommodations.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 12:28:07 AM
This goes both ways......if family members (of any age) at a meeting are deferential to the mission...fix it.
If this means ban them....that is one solution.
If this means providing them with non-CAP activities....that is one solution.
So being deferential is a bad thing?? You confuse me. ???
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 02:03:26 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 12:28:07 AM
This goes both ways......if family members (of any age) at a meeting are deferential to the mission...fix it.
If this means ban them....that is one solution.
If this means providing them with non-CAP activities....that is one solution.
So being deferential is a bad thing?? You confuse me. ???
I think he means "detrimental".
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 20, 2013, 02:12:20 AM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 02:03:26 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 12:28:07 AM
This goes both ways......if family members (of any age) at a meeting are deferential to the mission...fix it.
If this means ban them....that is one solution.
If this means providing them with non-CAP activities....that is one solution.
So being deferential is a bad thing?? You confuse me. ???
I think he means "detrimental".
Stupid spell check! :)
There is an incredibly huge difference between getting a babysitter and building a new building. One is an organizational challenge and the other is a personal responsibility. There is no comparison whatsoever in concept, complexity, scope or cost.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 02:15:28 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 20, 2013, 02:12:20 AM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 02:03:26 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 12:28:07 AM
This goes both ways......if family members (of any age) at a meeting are deferential to the mission...fix it.
If this means ban them....that is one solution.
If this means providing them with non-CAP activities....that is one solution.
So being deferential is a bad thing?? You confuse me. ???
I think he means "detrimental".
Stupid spell check! :)
Spellcheck, no. Autocorrect, very likely. Yeah, I'm being picky. >:D
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 02:16:51 AM
There is an incredibly huge difference between getting a babysitter and building a new building. One is an organizational challenge and the other is a personal responsibility. There is no comparison whatsoever in concept, complexity, scope or cost.
Not in the context that SARMED was using it.
"just get a baby sitter" is completely ignoring the actual situation of the member. It is easy for someone here on CAPTALK to just chuck out a quick and easy solution and draw lines in the sand with out knowing all the situation.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2013, 02:25:06 AM"just get a baby sitter" is completely ignoring the actual situation of the member. It is easy for someone here on CAPTALK to just chuck out a quick and easy solution and draw lines in the sand with out knowing all the situation.
For the sake of the discussion, why is this relevent?
It doesn't matter >why< you can't come, you just can't come. Your life circumstance, at the moment, precludes your participation. No harm, no foul.
We'll see yo on the other side.
We spend far too much time concerned about people's "private circumstances" to the detriment of the others in the room who just show up and
want to get their CAP on.
Okay......why do you care how other people run their squadron? If they accept the liability/hassle/distraction of having kids around.....what should we here on CAPTALK care.
Like Wise if YOU were to just say "sorry....you can't come to meetings any more"....I guess that's good too.
I don't know, Lord...
Maybe for or because of liability issues, for starters? If CAP regs say "12 years," and you have a 6-year-old running around and he gets hurt, corporate defense cannot be "the CAP discourages it, so we are not responsible." Lawyers will find "Commanders at a higher level should have known about those children present at meetings and put a stop to it."
Flyer
Quote from: Eclipse on June 20, 2013, 03:27:16 AM
.......We spend far too much time concerned about people's "private circumstances" to the detriment of the others in the room who just show up and want to get their CAP on.
Lack of people and lack of participation of those people and their sometimes extensive and useful skill sets is exactly part of the problem. Last time I checked CAP depends on people to make themselves a viable organization in regards to performing both its internal and external missions. Being concerned with peoples "private circumstances" is part of personnel management and retention in an organization, especially one that offers no other tangible benefit to participation besides a pat on the back.
I mean my experience may differ from yours, but I havent seen a squadron group or wing that has the luxury of telling people that they can only accept 100% help 100% of the time on our schedule and not yours; anything less and you can hit the road.....
mk
One approach to leadership is to engage your followers, try to find their impediments to success (which are often "private circumstances"), and then help them by bringing resources and authority to address those impediments so everyone wins.
Another is to say "not my problem", see ya on the other side. Let me know when you figure it out.
Both styles exist... I just know which type I'd spend my time and energy following, especially in a volunteer capacity.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 02:16:51 AM
There is an incredibly huge difference between getting a babysitter and building a new building. One is an organizational challenge and the other is a personal responsibility. There is no comparison whatsoever in concept, complexity, scope or cost.
Do you know the amount of money that babysitting and daycare costs?
For example. I and my wife have 3 kids, 1, 3 & 5. We use a combination of part time daycare, family members and the occasional free lance sitter just to allow us to work full time. (in order to keep costs low: its not exactly easy to coordinate that schedule either..."complexity") But, just talking cost, using our part time daycare costs as a guide toward full time coverage 8 hours per day 5 days a week, the cost of that alone is approximately $27300 a year.
For argument sake; just in CAP approximate costs: the average sitter needs 3 hours (1/2 hour each way, 2 hour meeting) for a meeting night, 50 meetings a year. 1 weekend activity a quarter (only daytime participation, so I can go home to watch the kiddos overnight, I am using 8 hour day as a guide) I pay my sitters $15 and hour: $2250 for meetings and $960 for weekend participation.
So just in CAP participation that's about $3200 (ish) just to be there.... on your simple solution of "...hire a baby sitter"
What would your retention be like if you told your squadron they had to pay $3200 a year in dues just to participate?.....
mk
Quote from: flyer333555 on June 20, 2013, 01:11:03 PM
I don't know, Lord...
Maybe for or because of liability issues, for starters? If CAP regs say "12 years," and you have a 6-year-old running around and he gets hurt, corporate defense cannot be "the CAP discourages it, so we are not responsible." Lawyers will find "Commanders at a higher level should have known about those children present at meetings and put a stop to it."
Flyer
That is a valid argument. But one in which the risk is fairly low.
..and how is it different than someone showing up for the first time to join with younger siblings in tow?
At least if they're around "often" (enough) they know the routine.
We have a few younger ones that are there regularly, with parents, and it's basically separate from the meeting, we have an area that parents can sit and wait, no one interferes, it works, some drive an hour to come to our meeting. they wait, eventually they figure out that there's more of them coming from the same direction and they carpool differently each week.
We get future cadets that way, too. :)