Hi: I just joined the Civil Air Patrol Program as a senior member and I have a question about eligibility for advancement to the rank of captain after I complete my 6 months level I officer training. I am currently a licensed attorney with over 10 years experience practicing law and I have a master's degree in psychology. I also hold professional certifications and a license in the field of drug and alcohol counseling and K-12 substitute teaching. In addition, honorably served in the USN on active duty after high school (enlisted rank) and as a nationally accredited veterans representative through the VA Center in DC, I am in the process of starting a veterans legal claims appeal nonprofit. Currently, I am in a composite squadron ( joined with my 13 year-old son) and the commander has barely said 10 words to me in the last 5 months. In addition, my membership application was delayed because the commander did not sign the oath portion of my application. Long story short, I found some information on the internet that leads me to believe that with my qualifications, I should be promoted to the rank of captain. The commander, who I am unaware of what educational level they have attained) started out as a 2nd Lt, and now has a captain has advised that the only way that I could be promoted to captain upon completion of level one, would be if I was assigned in a legal officer position on the wing level.
The squadron needs a DDR Officer, and I am more than willingly to accept that specialty track, but I think that I should still be promoted to captain. Does anyone know whether or not a licensed attorney with over 10 years experience practicing law has to be assigned to a wing legal officer position in order to make the rank of captain after OT training? I have already advised the commander that I plan to submit a voluntary resignation, because she seems unwilling to consider my accomplishments, and moreover should start at a rank lower than captain if I am not assigned a legal officer position. Also, I believe she may make it difficult for me to transfer to another squadron based upon a written reply she made when I suggested transferring to a senior only squadron in an email.
Promotions are not automatic and require commander approval.
Cap regulations are our 'Law'
Your commander is correct. CAPR 35-5 clearly states that to be eligible for the promotion to Captain, in the case of attorneys, you must be serving as a Civil Air Patrol Legal Officer.
Both the chart (figure 7), and the text read "Licensed attorney appointed as legal officers" (emphasis mine)
Your commander does not have the authority to just hand out grade however she wants. She is bound by CAP regulations, and is not just blackballing you. I would go back and re-read the regulation before making any rash decisions...
Thanks for your reply !
Notwithstanding the fact that promotions in CAP are not automatic and require commander approval.
What about the following section?
19. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade. In such cases, it must be evident that the member recommended has skills or background so unique and valuable to CAP as to eminently qualify him or her for promotion ahead of his or her peers. Areas of consideration are age, professional qualifications, unique business experience, association with other governmental or aviation agencies, educational background, community stature, civic endeavors, prior CAP service, etc. In such cases, the commander concerned must request a waiver of applicable promotion eligibility criteria through channels from the region commander or National Promotion Review Board as appropriate. See paragraph 8e for complete details on requesting waivers.
When I presented the above-information to the commander, there was no indication that my educational attainment, professional certifications, prior military experience and status as a nationally accredited veterans representative meant anything. Lastly, not doing anything rash, just do not feel that the commander recognizes or values the services that I am willing to offer to the cadets. Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Thanks for your reply !
Notwithstanding the fact that promotions in CAP are not automatic and require commander approval.
What about the following section?
19. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade. In such cases, it must be evident that the member recommended has skills or background so unique and valuable to CAP as to eminently qualify him or her for promotion ahead of his or her peers. Areas of consideration are age, professional qualifications, unique business experience, association with other governmental or aviation agencies, educational background, community stature, civic endeavors, prior CAP service, etc. In such cases, the commander concerned must request a waiver of applicable promotion eligibility criteria through channels from the region commander or National Promotion Review Board as appropriate. See paragraph 8e for complete details on requesting waivers.
When I presented the above-information to the commander, there was no indication that my educational attainment, professional certifications, prior military experience and status as a nationally accredited veterans representative meant anything. Lastly, not doing anything rash, just do not feel that the commander recognizes or values the services that I am willing to offer to the cadets. Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
Sounds egotistical and narcissistic to me and if this is the attitude you have taken with your commander its obvious why she has taken the approach to you she has. I have military experience as well and while it has been beneficial it did not grant me an automatic promotion. Plenty of members have and are coming up the hard way in life and I have found it makes them a little more humble. At the end of the day you can be Sheldon Cooper or Mr. Spock and still have to come up from the bottom if the commander decides it is so.
I recommend you reevaluate your approach to this and humble yourself a little bit more. You can be capable of offering the world to cadets and the organization but if your attitude and approach sucks then you will not be heard and people can care less about what you have to offer. And if you seriously believe that your current commander is beneath you then you can quit, go patron, or try and transfer to another unit. Bear in mind a commanders voice can and most times do carry a lot of weight within the group or wing.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Thanks for your reply !
Notwithstanding the fact that promotions in CAP are not automatic and require commander approval.
What about the following section?
19. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade. In such cases, it must be evident that the member recommended has skills or background so unique and valuable to CAP as to eminently qualify him or her for promotion ahead of his or her peers. Areas of consideration are age, professional qualifications, unique business experience, association with other governmental or aviation agencies, educational background, community stature, civic endeavors, prior CAP service, etc. In such cases, the commander concerned must request a waiver of applicable promotion eligibility criteria through channels from the region commander or National Promotion Review Board as appropriate. See paragraph 8e for complete details on requesting waivers.
When I presented the above-information to the commander, there was no indication that my educational attainment, professional certifications, prior military experience and status as a nationally accredited veterans representative meant anything. Lastly, not doing anything rash, just do not feel that the commander recognizes or values the services that I am willing to offer to the cadets. Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
Wow, all I can say is good luck with this attitude as you have stepped on the toes of a very large portion of the membership.
I really don't see that you understand CAP core values, and with your attitude I really wouldn't want you around cadets.
Dude - TANSTAAFL. Especially in CAP.
Advanced grade: bottom line - you need to be using all those fancy qualifications as a CAP member in order to get the promotion. Walking in the door and expecting a free handout on the railroad tracks is a non-starter. The same goes for pilots and other advanced promotions. A pilot can't just walk in the door, say "I'm a pilot," and get an immediate promotion. He, or she, needs to get started on getting qualified as a CAP pilot before worrying about advanced grade. You need to do the same thing in the legal beagle arena.
Saluting: what a crappy attitude! What makes you think that that stay-at-home mom, who busts her butt keeping the admin/personnel/finance side of the house running smoothly, is any less important or deserving of a salute than some self-professed whiz kid with a whole line of alphabet soup after his name? She isn't! She earned it. The 21 yo Captain (former cadet) who got his grade because of his Spaatz Award is even more deserving.
If you're offended by this, all I've got to say is - don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Thanks for your reply !
Notwithstanding the fact that promotions in CAP are not automatic and require commander approval.
What about the following section?
19. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade. In such cases, it must be evident that the member recommended has skills or background so unique and valuable to CAP as to eminently qualify him or her for promotion ahead of his or her peers. Areas of consideration are age, professional qualifications, unique business experience, association with other governmental or aviation agencies, educational background, community stature, civic endeavors, prior CAP service, etc. In such cases, the commander concerned must request a waiver of applicable promotion eligibility criteria through channels from the region commander or National Promotion Review Board as appropriate. See paragraph 8e for complete details on requesting waivers.
When I presented the above-information to the commander, there was no indication that my educational attainment, professional certifications, prior military experience and status as a nationally accredited veterans representative meant anything. Lastly, not doing anything rash, just do not feel that the commander recognizes or values the services that I am willing to offer to the cadets. Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
With that comment alone, if you were in my squadron I would outright deny any promotion. I would also direct a re-accomplishment of the customs and courtesies portion of Foundations, that or devise a home-brew test from CAPP 151. With that said, the posters above me are absolutely right, you obviously do not understand the core value of respect (especially with it being a two-way street and that every CAP member has earned their CAP rank in one way or another).
However, I guess since I don't have a bachelor's degree I shouldn't get any respect for the years (going on 14 of them) of hard work I've put into the program either.
I will say this though, membership is a privilege, and can be subject to a membership review board even at the squadron level. Acceptance of your application is evidence enough that the potential value your skills have is recognized. Now I recommend you check your attitude at the door and GIVE those potential services, maybe then a promotion would be considered.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
What about the following section?
19. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade.
<SNIP>
When I presented the above-information to the commander, there was no indication that my educational attainment, professional certifications, prior military experience and status as a nationally accredited veterans representative meant anything.
What you CAN do has no bearing on the Exceptional Qualifications exemption; it's all about what you ARE doing for CAP. That's what the whole, "and known value to CAP," phrase means.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
You seem to have a low regard for CAP rank, or the process by which it is usually earned. Why, then, is an advanced promotion so important to you?
I don't normally agree with Maj Medeiros however on this one I do. I have an AAS from the Air Force, a Bachelors from the University of New Mexico, and just started my Masters at Norwich; I just pinned on Capt yesterday. I worked my way up from SMWOG to Capt. While I feel your pain with the under educated soccer moms they at the moment happen to outrank you. At my AF unit most of my supervisors fall into this role yet since we are in a military org they outrank me and I have to respect that. CAP might be a paramilitary organization yet we draw our roots from the military so we should respect the rank. To quote Band of Brothers "We salute the rank, not the person".
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm [sic] do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
Geez.
What about non-college educated stay-at-home moms who might happen to command the squadron of which you are a part and in which you desire a promotion that is discretionary? Would she rate a salute from you? The commander is a volunteer trying to run a program. If the attitude you display here is any indication, the commander has better use of his/her time than to try to appease a new member who asks not what he can do for CAP but asks instead what CAP can do for him.
Also, I would submit that there is quite a difference between what you are "willing to offer to the cadets" and what you perhaps could already be offering if you were to dismount your high horse and actually be part of a solution and not part of a problem.
You joined CAP. CAP didn't join you.
As an aside, I find it interesting that you state in the title of this thread that you have been an attorney since 1991 and yet you claim only 10 years' experience in the body of your first post. It makes one wonder about the 12 years for which you do not claim credit. It is neither here nor there regarding your potential promotion or lack thereof, but it is intriguing nonetheless.
Finally, there is a very fitting lawyer joke but out of respect for Ned as well as several attorneys that I know who do great work for CAP without demanding anything I shall refrain from telling it. But it is funny!
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
At my AF unit most of my supervisors fall into this role yet since we are in a military org they outrank me and I have to respect that.
Perhaps your CoC would just love to hear this themselves.
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 07, 2013, 03:57:13 AM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
At my AF unit most of my supervisors fall into this role yet since we are in a military org they outrank me and I have to respect that.
Perhaps your CoC would just love to hear this themselves.
By role I meant that they have less education then I do. However they have the experience and rank that far surpasses my education. They know where I stand educationally and ask me for help in school. I in turn ask them for mentor-ship and guidance. It is a symbiotic relationship of mutual respect and admiration.
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 07, 2013, 03:57:13 AM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
At my AF unit most of my supervisors fall into this role yet since we are in a military org they outrank me and I have to respect that.
Perhaps your CoC would just love to hear this themselves.
By role I meant that they have less education then I do. However they have the experience and rank that far surpasses my education. They know where I stand educationally and ask me for help in school. I in turn ask them for mentor-ship and guidance. It is a symbiotic relationship of mutual respect and admiration.
Uh huh. I strongly advise that you think through what you commit to the web and on paper especially how it may be perceived.
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 07, 2013, 04:24:29 AM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 07, 2013, 03:57:13 AM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
At my AF unit most of my supervisors fall into this role yet since we are in a military org they outrank me and I have to respect that.
Perhaps your CoC would just love to hear this themselves.
By role I meant that they have less education then I do. However they have the experience and rank that far surpasses my education. They know where I stand educationally and ask me for help in school. I in turn ask them for mentor-ship and guidance. It is a symbiotic relationship of mutual respect and admiration.
Uh huh. I strongly advise that you think through what you commit to the web and on paper especially how it may be perceived.
A fine example for mentor-ship and I thank you for your information. I just got off a 15hr shift and my mind is slightly shot. However thank you again.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
I should be promoted to the rank of captain.
I agree with you. You should be promoted. After six months (just maybe if you've earned them) I'll give you your gold bars for 2nd lieutenant. Let's see - after a year I might give you your silver bars for 1st lieutenant. Hmm - OK - maybe I'll give you captain after a year and a half. Oh yeah, you gotta do Level II first. Oh wait - doesn't everyone else do that? Golly gee!
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
Well, assuming you get your captain bars let's remember - she might have earned her Level III, participated in SLS training as an instructor, participated in wing-level encampments, SAREX's and other activities too numerous to mention. And, heaven forbid, she gets promoted to major. Guess what? You'll be saluting her. And she'll have every right to expect that from you - nothing less! That's the way it works! That promotion to major? She's
earned it.
Ok, well thanks for all replies! And thanks for judging me so harshly everyone. I'll take my skills and knowledge elsewhere, maybe to the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I hear they have a better reputation than CAP anyway (good ole boy and good ole girl thing) and, further their not so tied up in the saluting, rank, etc. Lastly, those who were so quick to judge me ASSUMED that I could not complete the Office Basic Course and Squadron Leadership course within 6 months. NOR did anyone catch the fact, that with ONLY 6 seniors in the unit, the captain never had more than 10 words for me in past 5 months. Also, I was actively helping the cadets before my membership went through, albeit selling candy bars at break time and other mundane tasks, that I ALEADY do as a band booster and volunteer with my son's community theater group. At least in these undervalued and underused positions, I do not have to salute a bunch of egotistical, very overweight, and never do PT bunch, wearing costume jewelry folks no less.
Oh and lastly, while selling candy bars and doing other mundane tasks for CAP, this egotistical soon-to-be departed CAP member was never given proper information on how to become a legal officer in CAP, nor the opportunity to apply. Otherwise, assuming I would have been accepted as a Legal Officer this entire conversation would be moot!
I don't normally post in the mornings but I'm going to make myself late for work on this one. First of all where are you a Vet Rep at? I want to make sure I never have to deal with you. You have embarrassed me as a veteran.
Second, as someone in a profession that deals with attorneys on pretty much a daily basis I am not overly surprised at your superior, holier-than-thou attitude. Go back and read your posts. If you aren't seeing this then I know a great eye doctor. Gives Vet discount too.
You say your going to the CG Aux because they don't care about rank, but your first post is asking why you can't get promoted! I am 2nd Lt for the second time due to a break in service and didn't care when it happened. The crap on my shoulders doesn't define me or the job that I perform. It hasn't effected how I am seen by my peers or the public one bit. Rank is nothing but bling for senior members.
You need to seriously get off your high horse. Help the cadets. So what it is you want to do within CAP, CG Aux, band, whatever. Stop worrying about how supa cool you will look with railroad tracks.
Matter of fact after re reading your post, just leave. We don't need your attitude toward hard working volunteers. And I'm saying that as a wing retention officer
I'm hoping beyond hope that this was just a troll post.
When you interview for CG Aux, be sure to bring a printout of this thread. You'll want to make sure that they fully understand how awesome you really are,
I'm 23, a college grad, and a Captain. You, Mr. CAP member, don't need to salute me. I wouldn't want it.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
As a 1st Lt, I could say the same thing regarding your possible promotion to Captain. I am not inclined to salute self-centered, disrespectful people, simply because they have obtained a graduate degree.
As others have pointed out, CAP grade is awarded for a variety of reasons that you may or may not be aware of. It is important that we respect everyone's contributions. As an example, I recently met a CAP Major who is 1 year younger than me, and got advanced grade because she is a CFII. I bring valuable skills and experience to the unit that she doesn't have. However, she has been a mission pilot, attended NESA, and is very active in ES Ground Operations as well. She has been an incredible resource for me during my training for Mission Scanner and GTM3, in addition to her willingness to work with and train other members. In time, my abilities will benefit CAP, and I am sure I will be promoted based on the caliber of my performance, and my ability to use those skills in areas of greater responsibility. You don't necessarily know what led a person to their grade, but you should respect them regardless. Someone up that person's chain of command deemed them worthy of that grade. I gladly salute that Major out of respect for her contributions to CAP, the unit, and of course to me; and I would respect her grade even if none of that were true.
If you come to CAP as a licensed attorney and express interest in serving as a wing legal officer, your commander should help you prepare for that service, and connect you with people who can assist in that endeavor. It is also possible to serve as a staff officer in the unit, while accepting additional duties at group/wing level. This could allow you to continue serving the local cadets, while CAP benefits from your legal expertise. Without having all the facts, I can only suppose that your commander's unwillingness to even speak with you relates to the general attitude you present. If I were your commander, I would be unwilling to recommend you for wing staff, advanced promotion, or anything else, until/unless your attitude is adjusted to fit the core values of this organization.
The simple fact that everyone posting on this forum thread (a group of people who seldom all agree on anything) believe that your attitude is a major factor here, should tell you something. I hope you decide to stay in CAP, regardless of any decision on your advanced grade. If you have as much to offer the unit as you indicate, there are many ways through which you can serve in a meaningful way. Finally, just because you don't get the advanced grade now, doesn't mean in a year you might not be in a position to serve as legal officer, and can take the advanced grade at that time. If it is something you want, you will look for ways to grow in the organization, and make sure that wing staff know who you are, and what you can do.
If that is your attitude, I too would be hesitant to promote you. The regulation is very clear on what constitutes grounds for an advanced promotion. I can infer from your posts that the main reason you want to be a captain is because you think you're better than your commander and other senior members that you've encountered with lesser education or professional accomplishments. But let me ask you this, what do you know about CAP? What is your CAP experience? What have you done so far for this organization? Or for your squadron? What do you bring to the table?
If you just want to be a captain because you think you deserve it more than your commander, then you're in for a big surprise. Do the work first. Contribute to your squadron. And learn as much as you can about CAP, its missions and the specialties/duty positions you're assigned to. Then, just then, you can start thinking about promotions. If that's not good enough for you, you can try becoming a Legal Officer, but you'll have to do the work.
That being said, I think CAP may not be the right place for you. And this is coming from a major in both CAP and the Air Force with enough experience and professional and educational qualifications to be able to tell you that, if I was you commander, lawyer or not, I wouldn't even promote you to 2d Lt at this time. You're just not ready.
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
See I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
When I was an 8 year infantry Sergeant I felt the same way about snot nosed 2LTs!! Still whipped it out. I think you are taking the salute a little to personal. Just have fun with the program. Most SMs dont really salute each other much anyway. And if they do, so what. It doesnt lessen any of your accomplishments.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 07, 2013, 06:15:36 PM
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
See I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
When I was an 8 year infantry Sergeant I felt the same way about snot nosed 2LTs!! Still whipped it out. I think you are taking the salute a little to personal. Just have fun with the program. Most SMs dont really salute each other much anyway. And if they do, so what. It doesnt lessen any of your accomplishments.
That's different from the situation described by the OP. You had 8 years of experience in the Army and Infantry; the 2LTs had a fraction of that experience. Most captains in CAP have at least 3 years of CAP experience plus corresponding PD. Some unit commanders may have less, but they still have that command experience in CAP. And those coming from the military bring that experience as well. That's not the case of the OP. He's the one with barely any CAP experience or qualifications. The one skill that he has that could warrant an advanced promotion (his qualification as an attorney), is the one he doesn't want to use in benefit of CAP. So why does he want to be a Capt? So the he too can be saluted? That's just not good enough.
I wouldn't want anyone in my unit that looks down on others base on their professional or educational backgrounds or lack of. I want people who want to work regardless of personal recognition.
Quote from: EMT-83 on June 07, 2013, 01:37:06 PM
When you interview for CG Aux, be sure to bring a printout of this thread. You'll want to make sure that they fully understand how awesome you really are,
Heck, let's just forward a copy to the CGAux. I'm certain they'll have the proper reception for this guy.
Jack
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
Ok, well thanks for all replies! And thanks for judging me so harshly everyone. I'll take my skills and knowledge elsewhere, maybe to the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I hear they have a better reputation than CAP anyway (good ole boy and good ole girl thing) and, further their not so tied up in the saluting, rank, etc. Lastly, those who were so quick to judge me ASSUMED that I could not complete the Office Basic Course and Squadron Leadership course within 6 months. NOR did anyone catch the fact, that with ONLY 6 seniors in the unit, the captain never had more than 10 words for me in past 5 months. Also, I was actively helping the cadets before my membership went through, albeit selling candy bars at break time and other mundane tasks, that I ALEADY do as a band booster and volunteer with my son's community theater group. At least in these undervalued and underused positions, I do not have to salute a bunch of egotistical, very overweight, and never do PT bunch, wearing costume jewelry folks no less.
Oh and lastly, while selling candy bars and doing other mundane tasks for CAP, this egotistical soon-to-be departed CAP member was never given proper information on how to become a legal officer in CAP, nor the opportunity to apply. Otherwise, assuming I would have been accepted as a Legal Officer this entire conversation would be moot!
Really???? Do you honestly think that after making disrespectful, inflammatory, and insulting remarks about the membership they would not call you out on it? Nice try but all it did was prove the belief that you are of the belief that you are superior to the rest of us and we should be oh so grateful for your very existence not only on earth but within CAP. I don't think so.
If you completed SLS and OBC good for you. As for " this egotistical soon-to-be departed CAP member was never given proper information on how to become a legal officer in CAP, nor the opportunity to apply. Otherwise, assuming I would have been accepted as a Legal Officer this entire conversation would be moot" I would have thought an attorney would have been trained in doing research and have the ability to pick up the phone to contact and interview with the Wing Legal Officer. Elsewise you have stated your intentions to leave, and in the process burned several bridges. I hope you discussed these issues with the maligned Squadron or Group Commander before you left, maybe they could have been redressed.
In all organizations there is an adage well worth remembering: Engage your brain before you speak. Here is an adaptation: Engage your brain before your hands!
:(
You know you stuck your foot too deep in it when...
::)
...when even spaatzmom cannot find any worth in your message(s)...
???
...when all, but everyone in CAPTalk unite posting messages critical of you...
:P
...when no one, but no one is even posting any helpful message.
:-X
I hope you have learned by now when you should just zip it...
Flyer
Quote from: RVDavis on June 07, 2013, 01:20:22 AM
Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.
I was with you right up to this final statement. That was uncalled for. This attitude has been seen even on AD. Could you imagine the chaos we'd have in the military if we Marines didn't salute the AF because they don't have to work as hard for their rank as I did? Doesn't matter. What an AF Captain has to do to obtain that rank and what I would have to do in the Marines is very different. Doesn't matter. Even what two Marines obtaining captain with one being from supply and one from recon is completely different.
The point is that it doesn't matter what someone did to obtain their rank so as long as it was within regulations. As a former corporal in the Marines I don't even receive the respect of the AF as being an NCO as the AF doesn't see an E-4 as an NCO yet they would automatically promote me to E-5 if I made the move to the AF. They recognize that my duties are the same as their E-5. See how convoluted this whole thing gets?
You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. You do what you have to do to obtain the rank you want. Don't worry how others got theirs.
Let him/her go. Hopefully some has emailed the group and squadron cc about this. If this is the attitude displayed they need to be shown the door. Hopefully they have more class, finese and integrity in the courtroom.
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
"We salute the rank, not the person".
Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.
The best way to avoid having to salute someone who you do not want to salute is to not wear the Air Force style uniform or simply just do not don't salute. No one is going to write you up or give you a hard time if you walk past them and do not salute. C&C in CAP is pretty meaningless outside of the cadet program anyway. In the senior world it is about accomplishing an actual real world mission. The important thing is to contribute your skills to the organization in the best way possible.
Now, while I will agree with others that your attitude could stand some improvement, probably a lot; I will also state that many of those who came to CAP without any skills, licenses or degrees that would give them the possibility of advanced promotion hate the concept of advanced promotion and resent anyone who uses it.
In the end you are probably pushing too hard and your commander is probably one of those who do not like the program and might even feel threatened a bit and thus is pushing back. A little give and take might be in order from both of you.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 07, 2013, 10:24:06 PM
The best way to avoid having to salute someone who you do not want to salute is to not wear the Air Force style uniform or simply just do not don't salute. No one is going to write you up or give you a hard time if you walk past them and do not salute. C&C in CAP is pretty meaningless outside of the cadet program anyway. In the senior world it is about accomplishing an actual real world mission. The important thing is to contribute your skills to the organization in the best way possible.
Wearing a corporate uniform in no way negates or relieves the requirements to express full customs and courtesies to superior officers, including salutes.
Accomplishing the mission and rendering courtesies are not somehow "separate", nor are they specific to being within earshot of cadets.
Please don't propagate this urban myth.
You seem to have a feeling that you are the most educated person on this continent. In my unit most of our Senior Members are college graduates. Most with Master's and at least 4 with Doctorates (including 2 JD's). None of them are crying about not having been appointed directly to the grade of Captain. They all started as Senior Members and have progressed through the program. As stated earlier, contact the Wing Legal Officer about being appointed as an Assistant Legal Officer. As far as getting an advanced appointment as being "Exceptionally Qualified" they are few and far between and being a Lawyer with a secondary degree in psychology isn't in any way, shape or means exceptional. In 40 years of CAP service I have seen only two in my former wing that qualified. One was a Major who served as acting Wing Commander for three months when his predecessor died in office. The other was an AF Reservist and CAP member whose assignment was working with CAP. Because of the conflict of interest, he was given the choice of quitting CAP or his AF assignment. He chose the AF. when he finally retired we were able to get him Major based on his AF grade and than LTC based on the fact he met all the PD requirements and would have been a LTC, if he hadn't had to give up CAP for the higher good. Both gentlemen later wound up as Wing Commanders.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 07, 2013, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
"We salute the rank, not the person".
Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.
Were you an MP doing gate duty? Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 08, 2013, 04:11:13 AM
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 07, 2013, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
"We salute the rank, not the person".
Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.
Were you an MP doing gate duty? Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.
Were you in the Marines and if so what years? I was taught that, and it was expected of me, at every duty station in the Marines I served starting in 1994. Nope, I was a mechanic. The closest I got to gate duty was camp guard.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 08, 2013, 05:19:40 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 08, 2013, 04:11:13 AM
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 07, 2013, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: unmlobo on June 07, 2013, 03:01:51 AM
"We salute the rank, not the person".
Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.
Were you an MP doing gate duty? Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.
Were you in the Marines and if so what years? I was taught that, and it was expected of me, at every duty station in the Marines I served starting in 1994. Nope, I was a mechanic. The closest I got to gate duty was camp guard.
He was.
And yeah I remember saluting cars. It really sucked on Oki when the officer sticker was a little white O on top of the DOD sticker.
I don't think we want him in the CG Aux either.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 08, 2013, 01:20:00 PM
I don't think we want him in the CG Aux either.
Someone please let this man know about the United States Ranger Corps and TP's contact information.
OP is gone lets lock this thread and ditch it. And I wouldn't want the OP working with any kids with this attitude.
^ I second the motion for the "LOCK DOWN" 8)