Who would be recommended to create a pre-made ribbon rack of military and CAP ribbons? I used Medals of America to make my pre-loaded magnetic ribbon rack, but they do not have CAP ribbons on their site.
I believe ultra thin does Military and CAP ribbons
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 02, 2013, 06:29:43 AM
I believe ultra thin does Military and CAP ribbons
Ultrathin (Ultrathin.Com) has all branches of the military and CAP as well as the USCG Aux. They do a great job and have awesome customer service. The rack builder software on the website is not quite intuitive (or I am too dim to use technology), but they are willing to help you through the process if you give them a call.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 02, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Ultrathin (Ultrathin.Com) has all branches of the military and CAP as well as the USCG Aux. They do a great job and have awesome customer service. The rack builder software on the website is not quite intuitive (or I am too dim to use technology), but they are willing to help you through the process if you give them a call.
I did it for giggles once, and yeah, it took a minute or 10 to figure out how to mix/match CAP ribbons and Army ribbons. :)
I can attest to their quality at UltraThin. They've done a combined CAP & military rack for me (and updated it once) and I always have a stellar looking product in the end. They also mounted my mini-medals for mess dress (again, combined CAP & mil) and can do so with a customer-chosen level of medal overlap. Ultrathin also mounts my full-size anodized medals for the Marines. They do a really good job with ribbons & medals. I won't use anybody else.
I use the old school, Metal Ribbon Bar, Slide on process. I can also put 3 medals on a Single Ribbon Rack, its a bit hard. I cannot wear Military Ribbons, so i have measly 2 little ol Ribbons :)
im still waiting on that call for a Find Ribbon. Was called out once, but was cancelled :(
I still think its ridiculous that the CAP distinctive uniform cant sport military ribbons. Cops across the country wear military ribbons on their police uniforms all the time.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 02, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Ultrathin (Ultrathin.Com) has all branches of the military and CAP as well as the USCG Aux. They do a great job and have awesome customer service. The rack builder software on the website is not quite intuitive (or I am too dim to use technology), but they are willing to help you through the process if you give them a call.
Agreed on all that. I have ordered from them several times.
However, their ribbon rack builder does not permit mixing both CAP and CGAUX ribbons...an issue that has never satisfactorily been resolved by 39-1. CGAUX ribbons are indeed "awarded by competent military authority," since the Commandant, USCG, must approve all awards. However, Ultrathin does, of course allow CG awards, which Auxiliarists can earn.
I know several dual-hatted CAP/CGAUX members (including me)...the general consensus, in absence of cogent orders from higher authority, places CG ribbons first in order of precedence (since they are military ribbons), then CAP, then CGAUX.
Quote from: Pylon on April 02, 2013, 02:19:51 PM
I can attest to their quality at UltraThin. They've done a combined CAP & military rack for me (and updated it once) and I always have a stellar looking product in the end. They also mounted my mini-medals for mess dress (again, combined CAP & mil) and can do so with a customer-chosen level of medal overlap. Ultrathin also mounts my full-size anodized medals for the Marines. They do a really good job with ribbons & medals. I won't use anybody else.
I have an ultrathin rack and want it upgraded as I have a few more devices and a meritorious to add. I'm not sure how to get it updated, do you just send it back and request those things added or??
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 02, 2013, 05:53:19 PM
I still think its ridiculous that the CAP distinctive uniform cant sport military ribbons. Cops across the country wear military ribbons on their police uniforms all the time.
I share your frustration, but remember that the pre-1995 G/W kit didn't even allow
those, nor grade insignia on epaulettes. I'm not sure if Aircrew wings/GT badges were even allowed.
You had your blazer-type nameplate, and that was your lot.
EDIT: It is interesting to note that the CAP ribbon checker provided by the Texas State Guard Air Wing still includes the Air Medal and WWII Service Awards!
http://www.txsgair.org/DAFAB/CAPCode/BuildRackGIF.htm (http://www.txsgair.org/DAFAB/CAPCode/BuildRackGIF.htm)
At least it has progressed. To bad though.
Quote from: NCRblues on April 02, 2013, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: Pylon on April 02, 2013, 02:19:51 PM
I can attest to their quality at UltraThin. They've done a combined CAP & military rack for me (and updated it once) and I always have a stellar looking product in the end. They also mounted my mini-medals for mess dress (again, combined CAP & mil) and can do so with a customer-chosen level of medal overlap. Ultrathin also mounts my full-size anodized medals for the Marines. They do a really good job with ribbons & medals. I won't use anybody else.
I have an ultrathin rack and want it upgraded as I have a few more devices and a meritorious to add. I'm not sure how to get it updated, do you just send it back and request those things added or??
Go "olde school", call them and ask.
Quote from: NCRblues on April 02, 2013, 06:16:56 PM
I have an ultrathin rack and want it upgraded as I have a few more devices and a meritorious to add. I'm not sure how to get it updated, do you just send it back and request those things added or??
Indeed. Just call them and tell them what you have and what has to change; they'll give you a price for the update over the phone (usually cheaper than ordering a whole new rack). You send the rack back to them and within a week or so you get the updated rack back. It's pretty easy.
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 02, 2013, 05:53:19 PM
I still think its ridiculous that the CAP distinctive uniform cant sport military ribbons. Cops across the country wear military ribbons on their police uniforms all the time.
My deparment allowed military ribbons too.
I have been at different Veteran events and I have seen Veterans wear their ribbons on t-shirts, dickies khaki work shirts, Levi jackets, vests, etc, etc. (everything except a Hawaiian shirt). If you earned it, you should wear it.
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 03, 2013, 08:08:33 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 02, 2013, 05:53:19 PM
I still think its ridiculous that the CAP distinctive uniform cant sport military ribbons. Cops across the country wear military ribbons on their police uniforms all the time.
My deparment allowed military ribbons too.
I have been at different Veteran events and I have seen Veterans wear their ribbons on t-shirts, dickies khaki work shirts, Levi jackets, vests, etc, etc. (everything except a Hawaiian shirt). If you earned it, you should wear it.
I agree with this 100%. On the other hand, i was Upset at first that i could not wear military ribbons on the G/W. Then i realized, that hey, its much easier with 2 ribbons, and then i dont have to remake my stack everytime. Even though, it would be nice, once in awhile, to wear the ribbons :)
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 03, 2013, 08:08:33 AM
(everything except a Hawaiian shirt)
Hawkeye Pierce comes to mind.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 02, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 02, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Ultrathin (Ultrathin.Com) has all branches of the military and CAP as well as the USCG Aux. They do a great job and have awesome customer service. The rack builder software on the website is not quite intuitive (or I am too dim to use technology), but they are willing to help you through the process if you give them a call.
Agreed on all that. I have ordered from them several times.
However, their ribbon rack builder does not permit mixing both CAP and CGAUX ribbons...an issue that has never satisfactorily been resolved by 39-1. CGAUX ribbons are indeed "awarded by competent military authority," since the Commandant, USCG, must approve all awards. However, Ultrathin does, of course allow CG awards, which Auxiliarists can earn.
I know several dual-hatted CAP/CGAUX members (including me)...the general consensus, in absence of cogent orders from higher authority, places CG ribbons first in order of precedence (since they are military ribbons), then CAP, then CGAUX.
On your CAP uniforms? Sorry got to throw the "BS No way!" on this. 39-1 is clear that any and all questions are to be forwarded to NHQ......but not "absent of cognet orders".
My personal problem with UltraThin's rack builder....is that it does not allow for a 4,3,2 stack and maxes out at 40 ribbons.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 03, 2013, 06:31:17 PM
My personal problem with UltraThin's rack builder....is that it does not allow for a 4,3,2 stack and maxes out at 40 ribbons.
Their online builder might be limited, but if you contact their customer service, they're pretty good about building custom racks and non-standard configurations. I'm sure they can do it.
And holy crap, more than 40? :o
Quote from: lordmonar on April 03, 2013, 06:28:37 PMOn your CAP uniforms? Sorry got to throw the "BS No way!" on this. 39-1 is clear that any and all questions are to be forwarded to NHQ......but not "absent of cognet orders".
+1 There's any number of decorations, badges, and other military accouterments that are awarded by a "competent military authority" which are not allowed for wear by the
USAF and therefore not by CAP.
As indicated, NHQ is supposed to be the final judge.
I'm sure Ultrthin, and anyone else, would be happy to make whatever you want.
Quote from: Pylon on April 03, 2013, 08:21:26 PMAnd holy crap, more than 40? :o
Yep 17 CAP ribbons and 28 military ribbons. ;D
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2013, 08:30:13 PM
As indicated, NHQ is supposed to be the final judge.
So far they haven't weighed in one way or another on CGAUX ribbons.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 03, 2013, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2013, 08:30:13 PM
As indicated, NHQ is supposed to be the final judge.
So far they haven't weighed in one way or another on CGAUX ribbons.
You asked them directly and they didn't respond?
I will have one CAP ribbon once all my level 1 stuff is verified. I have like 13 military ones
As an Auxie and former CAP member, I would not support wearing Auxiliary specific awards on anything other than an Auxiliary Uniform... or conversely wearing CAP awards on an Auxiliary uniform... which is prohibited by AUXMAN. No one in CAP is going to care about my Marine Safety Training Ribbon.
However; Federal USCG awards like the CGPUC, CGUC etc should not be prohibited from wear because the member earned it as Auxiliarist or even a Civilian employee... when a USCG or USCGR member gets to wear it.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2013, 09:42:36 PM
You asked them directly and they didn't respond?
As in have I asked SP? No, I have not done that. However, I have checked the Knowledgebase several times over the years (I just did so again) and find
no mention of the topic at all; just actual CG ribbons.
Quote from: MIKE on April 03, 2013, 10:08:49 PM
As an Auxie and former CAP member, I would not support wearing Auxiliary specific awards on anything other than an Auxiliary Uniform... or conversely wearing CAP awards on an Auxiliary uniform... which is prohibited by AUXMAN. No one in CAP is going to care about my Marine Safety Training Ribbon.
However; Federal USCG awards like the CGPUC, CGUC etc should not be prohibited from wear because the member earned it as Auxiliarist or even a Civilian employee... when a USCG or USCGR member gets to wear it.
I know the AUXMAN doesn't allow CAP ribbons, and when I was in the AUX I didn't wear CAP ribbons on the CG uniform. That was spelt-out clearly. The converse is not. However, even my Division Captain (retired USCGR) said "it's not allowed, true, but I don't see why, since CAP awards are overseen by the Air Force."
I have asked two of my Squadron CC's (a retired Navy Corpsman Chief Warrant Officer and a retired Marine senior NCO).
Squadron CC #1: "You earned them. Wear them."
Squadron CC #2: "I haven't got a problem with it, unless someone higher up the chain tells you not to."
I should mention I have never worn anything but CAP ribbons on the G/W (or CSU)...because regulations are quite clear about CAP awards only.
I am not trying to be a showoff. If CAP and/or the Air Force says "no, CAP members cannot wear CGAUX ribbons on the AF/CAP uniform," (for example as with State Defence Force/National Guard State Ribbons) then I would remove them without complaint or challenge.
The question is......
Should we be able to wear Military Ribbons on the G/W Uniform?
No, because some services prohibit wear in their specific uniform regs.
Quote from: J2H on April 03, 2013, 10:07:58 PM
I will have one CAP ribbon once all my level 1 stuff is verified. I have like 13 military ones
You gotta start somewhere! ;)
Jack
So CyBorg you are saying that the CGAUX is just like CAP in that they have "leaders" who just do what they feel like instead of what their regs say. :)
Quote from: MIKE on April 04, 2013, 01:37:06 AM
No, because some services prohibit wear in their specific uniform regs.
Actually, Army encourages you to wear ribbons. If there is Regs than alot of DAV,VFW, Patriot Guard Riders are breaking regs.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 04, 2013, 05:56:01 AM
So CyBorg you are saying that the CGAUX is just like CAP in that they have "leaders" who just do what they feel like instead of what their regs say. :)
Actually, no.
CGAUX regs specifically state what can/can't be worn on the CGAUX uniform. My Division Captain said he believed CAP ribbons
should be wearable on the CGAUX uniform...but he acknowledged they weren't, and I didn't wear them.
CAP regulations have a lot more "wiggle room." I honestly wish CAP
would be more definitive on the subject, so we would definitely know one way or the other. I would have no problem removing CGAUX ribbons if that's what the regs actually
said.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 04, 2013, 02:44:35 PM
CAP regulations have a lot more "wiggle room." I honestly wish CAP would be more definitive on the subject, so we would definitely know one way or the other. I would have no problem removing CGAUX ribbons if that's what the regs actually said.
No, they really don't.
Are they explicitly authorized? No.
Did you call NHQ in that regard and receive authorization for an unusual or non-indicated military decoration as 39-1 directs? No.
Where's the wiggle room?
Quote from: Eclipse on April 04, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on April 04, 2013, 02:44:35 PM
CAP regulations have a lot more "wiggle room." I honestly wish CAP would be more definitive on the subject, so we would definitely know one way or the other. I would have no problem removing CGAUX ribbons if that's what the regs actually said.
No, they really don't.
Are they explicitly authorized? No.
Did you call NHQ in that regard and receive authorization for an unusual or non-indicated military decoration as 39-1 directs? No.
Where's the wiggle room?
Very bloody well, sir. I will contact NHQ. The reason I have not is that I
have done so on many, many occasions in the past unrelated to this particular issue and all I've gotten is word-for-word regurgitations of 39-1.
Ask to speak to their supervisor? :)
Quote from: CyBorg on April 04, 2013, 03:12:13 PM
Very bloody well, sir. I will contact NHQ. The reason I have not is that I have done so on many, many occasions in the past unrelated to this particular issue and all I've gotten is word-for-word regurgitations of 39-1.
Despite the fact that 39-1 has holes you could orbit a planet through, that is actually the correct approach to "gray areas" such as CGAUX ribbons. The very first paragraph of Chapter 1 states:
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Paragraph 1-1
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.
NHQ staffers can show you what IS allowed, but they cannot make judgment calls on "gray areas" because it's not their job and the controlling publication directs that anything not specifically addressed is not allowed.
Enough of that...let's look at your specific issue.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Paragraph 5-4
Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.
A straight reading of that document (the only possible reading allowed by Paragraph 1-1) says that you may wear any military service ribbon "awarded in writing by competent military authority." There's nothing there about how you were serving when the award took place, so any noise about having to be on active duty, etc. is just that...noise.
Earned a CGPUC or CGUC while volunteering with the CGAUX? Give the appropriate CAP personnel a copy of the award citation and proof that you were a CGAUX member during the specified period and put it on your rack. Doing so might make heads explode in your AOR ("How'd that guy get a CGPUC without earning any other CG awards?"), but you earned it and CAP says you can wear it, so have at it.
But don't wear it on any of the corporate uniforms!
^ Compare your CAPM 39-1 quote to the slightly different wording of CAPR 39-3.
Quote from: MIKE on April 04, 2013, 05:08:39 PM
^ Compare your CAPM 39-1 quote to the slightly different wording of CAPR 39-3.
You mean this?
Quote from: CAPR 39-3 Paragraph 3.b.
Decorations, ribbons and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.
Yeah, that presents a
small problem for my well-constructed argument. :o
CyBorg...forget what I said.
I'll crawl back into my hole now! ;)
Edited to add that one wouldn't expect to see military awards covered in a publication entitled Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons and Certificates.
However, 39-3 has holes in it too, in this context referring to service performed in the service of an allied nation.
I've talked before about having served in a squadron with a retired French-Canadian fighter pilot who was flying for United. He had umpteen hours flying the CF-5 (Canadair-built F-5) out of the big fighter bases at Cold Lake, Alberta and Bagotville, Quebec.
(http://www.squadronprints.com//images/products/regular/0261.jpg)
(Incidentally, these Squadron Prints are quite nice and there's examples of almost every unit/aircraft, etc. one can think of)
He said NHQ would not let him wear any of his Canadian ribbons, though they did let him wear his wings.
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4968419074836353&pid=15.1)
They would not even let him wear his Canadian Forces Decoration - kind of their equivalent of a Good Conduct Medal, except it takes 12 years to get a first award of it (or, as they sometimes say, "12 years of undetected crime").
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=CD (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=CD)
My point? CAP is often very capricious/inconsistent at what they will/will not allow to be worn...and to me, the accomplishments of my former Quebecois colleague should have been wearable on the CAP uniform.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 05, 2013, 01:34:31 PM
However, 39-3 has holes in it too, in this context referring to service performed in the service of an allied nation.
I've talked before about having served in a squadron with a retired French-Canadian fighter pilot who was flying for United. He had umpteen hours flying the CF-5 (Canadair-built F-5) out of the big fighter bases at Cold Lake, Alberta and Bagotville, Quebec.
(http://www.squadronprints.com//images/products/regular/0261.jpg)
(Incidentally, these Squadron Prints are quite nice and there's examples of almost every unit/aircraft, etc. one can think of)
He said NHQ would not let him wear any of his Canadian ribbons, though they did let him wear his wings.
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4968419074836353&pid=15.1)
They would not even let him wear his Canadian Forces Decoration - kind of their equivalent of a Good Conduct Medal, except it takes 12 years to get a first award of it (or, as they sometimes say, "12 years of undetected crime").
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=CD (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=CD)
My point? CAP is often very capricious/inconsistent at what they will/will not allow to be worn...and to me, the accomplishments of my former Quebecois colleague should have been wearable on the CAP uniform.
CAP is just following the Air Force's lead on this. If he was in the U.S. Air Force he wouldn't be allowed to wear his Canadian decorations either.
Quote from: PHall on April 06, 2013, 01:19:18 AM
CAP is just following the Air Force's lead on this. If he was in the U.S. Air Force he wouldn't be allowed to wear his Canadian decorations either.
It hasn't always been that way.
The Americans who served in the RAF/RCAF before the U.S. entered the war were allowed to wear their British Commonwealth decorations (mostly British Distinguished Flying Crosses, but I know of at least one Distinguished Service Order) along with their U.S. ribbons and to wear their RAF/RCAF wings over the right pocket of the service dress.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 06, 2013, 01:19:18 AM
CAP is just following the Air Force's lead on this. If he was in the U.S. Air Force he wouldn't be allowed to wear his Canadian decorations either.
It hasn't always been that way.
The Americans who served in the RAF/RCAF before the U.S. entered the war were allowed to wear their British Commonwealth decorations (mostly British Distinguished Flying Crosses, but I know of at least one Distinguished Service Order) along with their U.S. ribbons and to wear their RAF/RCAF wings over the right pocket of the service dress.
Yes.....but it has been that way since the 1950's........so it is not like it changed recently.
Legally in order to wear a foreign award of any type on the US uniforms, it has to be authorized by Congress. Those of us who served in Vietnam or other conflicts that awarded their medals were already pre approved for acceptance. But in cases where for instance GB awards a Knighthood on the Commander of NATO forces. It will be accepted, but not worn until the approval is received.
Thanks for the replies everyone!