I understand that CAP is a volunteer organization mostly dealing with youth, however, is there a way to maybe "adhere to" the military standards of uniform? Last night (I went as a prospective senior member) I saw kids wearing BDUs, some kids in Blues, some in a mix of BDU/Blues items, civilian jackets and hats, some with "sparring" gloves... there was no formality... how do I address this, or is this normal and I am just too used to the real military way of doing things?
We don't need to follow "military" standards, we have our own. This is a leadership issue, not a uniform issue.
You can buy them all the proper uniform items and accessories since CAP doesn't issue anything except one pair of blue pants and one blue shirt for cadets. ;)
Well, something I've noticed is that some squadrons are more "Mature" than others. When I first joined my squadron, I came in just as they started making UODs for each night. My first night, a few were in BDUs, some in blues, some in service dress, and that was the norm. Soon, this changed to a consistent e-mail detailing the UOD, and no more of that occurred. However, I've visited squadrons that are in the forming stage where even having a complete mailing list would be a miracle, so there's a mix of uniforms. I think it's really more of a "Cycle" thing that no one can realistically control. Much like we wouldn't expect a 3 year old to put together a suit and tie, we wouldn't expect a relatively new squadron to match.
However, I think that, with the right leadership, this period of non-matching can be shortened to a period of no more than a few months. Though, I've yet to see that.
You have to remember that not all CAP members were prior military. I have seen excellent units who were literally run by moms. Customs and courtesy were alright, cadets were smart and testing weill. But there were C/SSgts wearing blues shirts tucked in to blue jeans wearing leather dress shoes. Its not that they didnt care, they didnt know. A lot of the parents had been scout leaders, etc. So they brought what they knew to the table to make things work. When I showed up and they found out I had been a cadet and was in the military...... it was like the Pope addressing the masses from the Vatican balcony! (OK.....maybe not quite like that) But they were pleased someone showed up who knew that aspect of the program. They were doing the best the could. There can be financial issues as well. As the DCC, I allowed cadets to wear civilian jackets if it was cold. We worked on getting cadets jackets and had a decent relationship with the local area military, and in time, we could usually get a cadet a regulation jacket within a couple of months.
You address this by getting in, observing and coming up with solutions. Dont walk in day 1 as a drill instructor. Coming in and demanding that everyone be within regs by next meeting is going to find you standing alone at the next uniform inspection. If you keep in mind that cadets have an INTENSE desire to be as squared away and as locked on as humanly possible, you should be able to do OK by wanting to tighten the standards. Just remember that most cadets dont have jobs. Their parents will come from all over the financial spectrum. And the parents will be a little concerned if you suddenly send their kids home with a $300 list of things they MUST have, when civilian jackets and gloves have been fine for the past couple of years. Work with local JROTC units about getting old uniforms donated, if there are any AF bases or Air Guard or even Coast Guard units near you, talk to them about any uniform donations.
Senior Members are a different animal but most are up for at least the blue polo and grey slacks.
There are four type of senior members:
1. No prior military or CAP cadet experience.
2. No prior military but was a cadet.
3. Prior military but not formerly a cadet.
4. Prior military and formerly a cadet.
Note: by "prior military" I mean military experience. Thy could be active still, retired, or simply spent a 3 or 4 year stint.
I have spent a lot of time in CAP trying to explain why uniform standard, accountability, and consistency is critical to raising cadets appropriately. Yet, there's always one or two that just don't get it, refuse to get it, or will argue that YOU are wrong. I simply ignore those types and work around them.
The first remedy to this is to identify a "squadron uniform" that everyone will have and focus your priority on getting everyone into that uniform. In my experience we've chosen BDUs for this because they are more versatile and we've been successful in doing so. Once everyone has BDUs, all parts if BDUs, then move on to blues.
Quote from: J2H on March 05, 2013, 04:47:48 PM
I understand that CAP is a volunteer organization mostly dealing with youth,
No, it's not.
And we have our own standards.
I also like to use the Great Start program as a way of getting the uniform issues straightened out before they become an issue. Keep your training cadets in black t-shirts and blue jeans until they have all of their uniform parts (nametags or tapes, ribbons, devices, covers, shoes, etc.) Before they wear the uniform, they bring their uniform in the week before and we show them how to prepare it for wear (how to iron, how to shine boots, etc.) There is a lot more pride involved if they have the belief that they have "earned the right" to wear it versus if you just give them a uniform and say "Wear this next week," and they will wear it properly.
How is it not mostly dealing with youth?
Anyway, my Sqdn has "blues night" and "pt night" where the UOD is blues and pt, respectively. However, I do understand parents are probably shelling out for most of the stuff or the cadets just don't know. I will get with the CC and the Cadet Programs officer and maybe see if we can work out the kinks by getting donated items, etc... Thanks all
Some people get a little tense when anyone references CAP as being a "youth organization". I have no doubt that if the Cadet Program went away.... CAP would dry up and blow away. Yes we have other missions..... but a HUGE aspect of CAP is the cadet program no matter how you slice it.
The parts of the organization that get the resources and do the missions are based around and staffed by adults.
As of today:
National Cadet Count: 26633 (as of 28 Feb 2013)
National Senior Count: 34755 (as of 28 Feb 2013)
That's 8k more adults then cadets. It'd be a toss-up which group has more empty shirts, but I'd hazard the
ratio would stay the same after normalization.
Without a cadet program, CAP would likely shrink to the relative size of the CGAux.
J2h, don't confuse a local unit with the norm of CAP nationally, positive or negative. I would also suggest you tread lightly until you understand the complete paradigm better. All units need help, but FNGs who show up and want to "fix" things, aren't usually welcomed with open arms. CAP is a complicated beast, not easily
fully understood until you've been in for a while and seen pieces of the larger whole.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2013, 07:00:56 PM
CAP is a complicated beast, not easily fully understood until you've been in for a while and seen pieces of the larger whole.
Uhhhh.... those of us who have been in for a while still don't fully understand some of the things that go on and most of us have seen large pieces of the whole....
Quote from: J2H on March 05, 2013, 04:47:48 PM
I understand that CAP is a volunteer organization mostly dealing with youth, however, is there a way to maybe "adhere to" the military standards of uniform? Last night (I went as a prospective senior member) I saw kids wearing BDUs, some kids in Blues, some in a mix of BDU/Blues items, civilian jackets and hats, some with "sparring" gloves... there was no formality... how do I address this, or is this normal and I am just too used to the real military way of doing things?
You are too used to the real military...and I am just as guilty. I have been member of CAP for about a year and a half - having served in the Army for 10 years. I was looking for the things I missed dearly after leaving the military (one of my biggest regrets in life) such as the camaraderie and the closeness that you will only find in the military. I missed wearing the uniform and there was no way I could afford to go back to the military - one time in the Sandbox was enough.
With that said, while there are MANY prior service who like to remain squared away and disciplined enough to still look great in the military-style uniforms even push 80 years old, however CAP is NOT the military. As a matter of fact since the Air Force stripped CAP of the USAF AUX designation unless it is actually working on USAF missions, it is even LESS of a military organization than it ever was. Every year the Air Force distances itself from CAP more and more unfortunately.
So, my friend, my advice to you is to find your own standard and code and live by it, but don't expect that to necessarily extend uniformly (no pun intended) to everyone else. Don't worry about the things you can't control. Even as a Squadron Commander I know that my cadets come from differing means and while some can afford the entire set of uniform pieces, many can't. The same goes for my Senior Members.
At the end of the day, keep yourself squared away to YOUR level of standards which is about all you can do. But remember, 99% of the time CAP is a NGO, Not-for-profit organization and, for the most part, not subject to military standards of dress and uniformity.
Quote from: zooompilot on March 05, 2013, 09:01:30 PM
Every year the Air Force distances itself from CAP more and more unfortunately.
I don't mean to hijack the thread unnecesarily or to simply pluck out part of a very good post out of context, but I just had to ask:
What makes you say this?
I literally spent last weekend with no fewer than a half-dozen USAF general officers - all major generals and above - who could not have been more complimentary and committed to CAP. The AF Director of Operations, Major General James Jones, was particularly effusive in his kind comments about CAP. I had dinner with our BoG Chair, Major General John Spegiel (ret), who literally volunteers his time and efforts supporting us. His expression of AF support is very convincing. I also had dinner with Lieutenant General Ted Bowlds (ret), and he repeated that the AF is depending more and more on CAP. (To be fair, Gen Bowlds is a former Spaatz cadet, so he might be a bit biased.)
Last fall, I went to the AFNORTH operations center and Lieutenant General Stanley Clarke briefed us about the importance of CAP to his command. He showed us the Air Tasking Order for AFNORTH for the day, and 2/3 of the sorties were CAP flights.
Even in the era of the sequester, the AF spends millions of their precious dollars directing and supporting us. This at a time when the "long knives" are out in the back rooms of the budgeting offices in the Pentagon.
Yes, missions are changing. That is inevitable. But the AF committment to CAP is unwaivering.
At least from where I sit.
[edited because spelling general officers' names correctly is part of the Core Value of Respect.]
I don't know much about no Generals, TBH, I was just posting what I know..
Quote from: J2H on March 05, 2013, 11:11:03 PM
I don't know much about no Generals, TBH, I was just posting what I know..
Watch and see how things work for a while. before making assumptions.
Help where you can, when you're asked.
They did say they needed fresh blood with some military bearing lol
Quote from: zooompilot on March 05, 2013, 09:01:30 PMI have been member of CAP for about a year and a half...
You have 18 months more TIS than the gentleman who asked the question and in that year and a half, you've managed determine the USAF has no interest in supporting us.
As a CAP member of 25 years, a member of the military for 19 years and 6 months, I can tell you that you are not correcting in your statement. These things you say are no different than the wise cracks said by active components towards the reserve components; combat arms guys towards support personnel, or fighter jocks towards the troop carriers. In short, it's just made up stories and rumor control.
I've been in active units that were made up of 80% active/former/reserve military, and they were the sharpest of squadrons (those were the days). And I have been in units with about 10 to 20% active/former/reserve military and regardless of their status, a unit is a unit, and it may or may not differ from units 15 miles away. Each squadron has its own personality; some more "military" than others.
I'm not trying to start a fight guys, I'm just a veteran asking a question of an organization I just started to get into
Quote from: J2H on March 06, 2013, 12:19:21 AM
They did say they needed fresh blood with some military bearing lol
On their terms and schedule, not yours. 8)
The only thing they asked me to do was teach D/C to the Senior members
Quote from: J2H on March 06, 2013, 01:50:27 AM
The only thing they asked me to do was teach D/C to the Senior members
That's a good start.
What has helped our squadron over the years has been the majority of our senior members who have been military veterans. We've had AF, Navy and Marine Officers as well as a few former enlisted guys from the Viet Nam era. They enjoy being focused on Air and Ground Ops but are not focused on uniforms. We look pretty good if there is an occasion when everyone shows up in a golf shirt. We've been helped in the past when we had a PDO who took the job seriously. They would remind us of the uniform and behavior expectations of our hosts while on a Military base. If we're around Cadets the least we could do is all wear golf shirts.
Isn't the least they Are required to do is wear the golf shirts?
Quote from: J2H on March 05, 2013, 04:47:48 PM... Last night (I went as a prospective senior member) I saw kids wearing BDUs, some kids in Blues, some in a mix of BDU/Blues items, civilian jackets and hats, some with "sparring" gloves... there was no formality... how do I address this, or is this normal ...
To get back on topic. Hopefully you have a choice of three units all with in reasonable commuting distance. When I wanted to get my oldest child involved we had three close units, one met on Monday, one on Tuesday and one on Wednesday. So we went to all three and I let my son chose.
His observation, Monday that was OK; Tuesday wow that is awesome; and Wednesday that was sad Dad they look like and act like clowns. That is good if you have a choice of units. I went out of state considering a job move and that area has a local CAP Squadron and the next one is an hour away. So if I make that move I do not get an option. But fortunately I could tell that is a well ran unit.
Good luck and have fun.
Quote from: Ned on March 05, 2013, 09:21:07 PM
Quote from: zooompilot on March 05, 2013, 09:01:30 PM
Every year the Air Force distances itself from CAP more and more unfortunately.
I don't mean to hijack the thread unnecesarily or to simply pluck out part of a very good post out of context, but I just had to ask:
What makes you say this?
I literally spent last weekend with no fewer than a half-dozen USAF general officers - all major generals and above - who could not have been more complimentary and committed to CAP. The AF Director of Operations, Major General James Jones, was particularly effusive in his kind comments about CAP. I had dinner with our BoG Chair, Major General John Spegiel (ret), who literally volunteers his time and efforts supporting us. His expression of AF support is very convincing. I also had dinner with Lieutenant General Ted Bowlds (ret), and he repeated that the AF is depending more and more on CAP. (To be fair, Gen Bowlds is a former Spaatz cadet, so he might be a bit biased.)
Last fall, I went to the AFNORTH operations center and Lieutenant General Stanley Clarke briefed us about the importance of CAP to his command. He showed us the Air Tasking Order for AFNORTH for the day, and 2/3 of the sorties were CAP flights.
Even in the era of the sequester, the AF spends millions of their precious dollars directing and supporting us. This at a time when the "long knives" are out in the back rooms of the budgeting offices in the Pentagon.
Yes, missions are changing. That is inevitable. But the AF committment to CAP is unwaivering.
At least from where I sit.
[edited because spelling general officers' names correctly is part of the Core Value of Respect.]
Thank you sir for sharing this with us. :clap:
Quote from: Ned on March 05, 2013, 09:21:07 PM
I don't mean to hijack the thread unnecesarily or to simply pluck out part of a very good post out of context, but I just had to ask:
What makes you say this?
I literally spent last weekend with no fewer than a half-dozen USAF general officers - all major generals and above - who could not have been more complimentary and committed to CAP. The AF Director of Operations, Major General James Jones, was particularly effusive in his kind comments about CAP. I had dinner with our BoG Chair, Major General John Spegiel (ret), who literally volunteers his time and efforts supporting us. His expression of AF support is very convincing. I also had dinner with Lieutenant General Ted Bowlds (ret), and he repeated that the AF is depending more and more on CAP. (To be fair, Gen Bowlds is a former Spaatz cadet, so he might be a bit biased.)
Last fall, I went to the AFNORTH operations center and Lieutenant General Stanley Clarke briefed us about the importance of CAP to his command. He showed us the Air Tasking Order for AFNORTH for the day, and 2/3 of the sorties were CAP flights.
Even in the era of the sequester, the AF spends millions of their precious dollars directing and supporting us. This at a time when the "long knives" are out in the back rooms of the budgeting offices in the Pentagon.
Yes, missions are changing. That is inevitable. But the AF committment to CAP is unwaivering.
At least from where I sit.
Always good to hear new like that. Thanks Ned!
I have little time in CAP but a day or two in big Army. When I joined CAP I saw a few things that I thought needed fixing. I talked with my peers and Cadets and used the slow and easy approach. If you just thrust yourself into issues the Cadets never learn problem solving and think Micro management is normal. Coming from a different enviroment where your TROOPS are expected to perform to standard at the gate you have to look, listen and nudge ome folks towards the right way (Regulation). In my particular Squadron I see a Comander that wants it done right, Seniors that support that goal and Cadets that want to be correct and surpass what is expected of them. Sometimes you have to adjust your apporach to your audience and stick with measurable progress that teaches the right way as opposed to nuking every little infraction which will close doors to communication faster than a slap to the face. I am still learning the CAP way and I have an open mind to achieiving the required end state.