Does anyone from Nevada Wing have more information about this story that I found posted on a firearms forum I frequent? It is a rather odd one about a H.S. student who is both a member of the Nevada Army National Guard (ARNG) and a CAP cadet whose Facebook pictures of himself in his ARNG uniform prompted some possibly illegal action by both the police and school administrators.
http://nevadajournal.com/2013/02/05/ccsd-police-and-principal-illegally-searched-and-detained-our-son-say-parents/ (http://nevadajournal.com/2013/02/05/ccsd-police-and-principal-illegally-searched-and-detained-our-son-say-parents/)
Are school administrators really this easily freaked out over pictures of their students these days?
Quote from: SaBeR33 on February 18, 2013, 04:10:19 PM
Are school administrators really this easily freaked out over pictures of their students these days?
Sadly yes.
If you spend a little time with Google you will find that it isn't as unusual as we'd like it to be. Kids on the school rifle team
being busted / hassled for having their competition weapon in their vehicle. Kids in rural communities being hassled for
having farm implements like machetes, etc. Kids who work a retail store and get busted for having a box cutter in their
bag (or again, more usually in their vehicle in the parking lot).
Knee jerk media looking to fill the next 15 minutes, freaked out parents, and law enforcement trying to balance everything.
Of course only hindsight can tell us if a given photo is benign or an indicator.
With all the above said, this school, and/or the police department, are probably going to be writing both a big mea culpa
and possibly a big check, because there appear to be a whole whole bunch of rights violated.
This is interesting to say the least. I will cross-post this to a LE forum I'm on, see what thoughts crop up there.
I know when I was in school, on every outer door there was a notice posted on or near it that said by entering the property you consent to a search of your person and/or property.
You dont need a search warrant to search a students back pack.
How about probable cause? And what about confiscating the military ID? Not to mention holding the
student without allowing him to call his parents, etc.
Bags are checked everyday on campuses across the nation and many schools have metal detectors installed. Hell some schools have even flat out banned book bags all together or have instituted a policy that if you do carry a book bag then it will be see through.
Confiscating the Mil ID is a big no no and holding a minor without contacting the parents in any aspect is definitely a big no no. Though as with anything with the media we are only getting one side of the story with this printing.
IAW DOD Instruction...If the Holder is of a DOD issued Identification Card "is captured as a hostage, detainee, or POW, the DD
Form 2 (Reserve), shall be shown to the capturing authorities, but, insofar as possible, should not be surrendered. "
I wonder if the police violated the Geneva Convention by confiscating his Geneva Convention card. >:D
Quote from: SARDOC on February 18, 2013, 06:46:38 PM
IAW DOD Instruction...If the Holder is of a DOD issued Identification Card "is captured as a hostage, detainee, or POW, the DD
Form 2 (Reserve), shall be shown to the capturing authorities, but, insofar as possible, should not be surrendered. "
I wonder if the police violated the Geneva Convention by confiscating his Geneva Convention card. >:D
The Geneva Convention applies to wartime scenarios not being detained by civil authorities. And we don't issue a DD Form 2 anymore except to retirees. And a key word there is
should not be surrendered if it is confiscated that is a different aspect. At the end of the day if there is nothing more to the story than what has been presented then the LE agency and the school will be in big trouble.
FWIW, here's one of the more notable replies from the LE forum I shot this over to:
QuoteI read both parts of the "piece of...journalism" lol (note, articles from anti-government group backed "news" outlets should be taken with a grain of salt). Seems there might have been some policy violations (which is all to common with non-police school administrators are too involved), but otherwise no big deal.
If CCSD Police hadn't investigated a lead from the FBI that the kid might be involved with this lovely individual who is still in Federal Custody (http://www.lvrj.com/news/judge-teen-s-risk-to-the-community-keeps-him-behind-bars-173550401.html) as well as another kid who got arrested for bringing weapons to the school (http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/184522031.html), and something bad did later happen, everyone would be all over CCSD Police for not doing their jobs right and "being keystone cops" etc etc.
The article also contradicts itself, making it sound like it's a zero tolerance situation where people freaked out about his facebook, then going on to say that it was really started by an FBI request.
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 18, 2013, 08:31:02 PM
And we don't issue a DD Form 2 anymore except to retirees.
AFROTC contracted cadets are still issued DD Form 2
Quote from: SaBeR33 on February 18, 2013, 04:10:19 PM
Are school administrators really this easily freaked out over pictures of their students these days?
It really depends on where you live YMMV ;)
Privacy settings!
Violation of Civil Rights under color of Law is a federal felony which can get you 10 years on the wrong side of the bars
As an SRO I wanted to read the article throughly before commenting. A couple things popped out, but all I'm getting is the one sided story. First of all, most all schools have the right to search anyone on school property, and most schools have a policy in the student code of conduct that allows searches. That has to be done by an employee of the school board. Myself as a City PD officer assigned to the school can't do it with out PC but a board employee can. The officers in this case were board employees and the rules work slightly different. Their is case law to support that. As for not contacting the parents immediately, yes I am required to contact the parents when I detain or arrest a juvenile. But many times that'll be when I'm already at juvenile detention.
This case would have been different. You're talking about questioning someone on a possible terrorist type activity? Nope, that's a Miranda warning, especially if I'm as the police questioning him. If it is purely just a school matter, than that's on them if they contact the parents at that point.
IT says the student tried to show his military ID and the police "confiscated" it. Are we sure the police just didn't hold on to it during the encounter? I do it all the time. Are we sure that the police actually confiscated, as in didn't return it? I find that hard to believe.
Some mistakes were definitely made in this, and I'm sure I'll be reading about this in a different publication soon.
Thanks for all of the information, everyone. I'm aware that school administrators can search the belongings of students while the students are on school property, but it seems they were on a fishing trip with this one where the accused had no more than a passing familiarity with the student who was being investigated for terrorism related matters. If what is presented in the article is factually correct, it also sounds like the principal made a false statement regarding an e-mail that didn't state what she told the police. Wouldn't that get her into trouble and discredit some of what she stated? I'm sure there is more to the story than this that will, ideally, be forthcoming.
Saber, we're only seeing one side of the story here. The poorly written article doesn't help.
I wouldn't get too worked up over this until ALL of the "facts" come out.
The clearest indicator will be to see if this kid is actually charged with something.
(And yes, to me an 17 or 18 year old Private is a kid...)
This Bovine Scatology is happening more and more often in our schools and a lot of folks are voting with their feet and opting to homeschool for reasons like this.
The fix is easy: start taking notice and voting the school boards out who let this nonsense happen under their noses.
So this is 6 weeks old.... any follow up to what happened? And yeah... as an 8 year Infantry NCO, 18yr old privates are usually kids. I know, I know.... they can die for their country and all that. This guy was still in high school. Completing boot camp and then going back and finishing your senior year doesnt necessarily check the "manhood" box.
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 25, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
So this is 6 weeks old.... any follow up to what happened? And yeah... as an 8 year Infantry NCO, 18yr old privates are usually kids. I know, I know.... they can die for their country and all that. This guy was still in high school. Completing boot camp and then going back and finishing your senior year doesnt necessarily check the "manhood" box.
I can think of a couple of 40-plus-year-olds who STILL haven't checked the "manhood" box! >:D
The story was poorly written (which usually means it was poorly reported). But I believe it. My oldest son, when he was in middle school, got a one-day suspension for bringing "ammunition to school." The reality? He re-wore a pair of jeans he had worn that weekend, and forgot he had a paintball in the pocket from when he and his buddies went and did Airsoft. Yes, the deadly paintball. Imagine the lives that might have been lost...
Quote
The reality? He re-wore a pair of jeans he had worn that weekend, and forgot he had a paintball in the pocket from when he and his buddies went and did Airsoft. Yes, the deadly paintball. Imagine the lives that might have been lost...
And as he used to say "An now the rest of the story ..."
Exactly what was your son doing that the school found out about the paintball. If he just left it in the pocket then I fail to see how anything could have happened. So I think we can safely assume that your son was displaying the ammo in some way that alarmed the authorities.
Paintball is fun but don't think for a moment that a paintball cannot put out an eye. That is why paintballers wear protective gear.
So can we have the "rest of the story".
First off...it was just the ball, no gun. So pretty hard to put an eye out.
Secondly...he was at his locker, reached into his pocket, wondered what the hell was in there, took it out and said, "Hey, I forgot this was in there."
Thirdly...the SRO was ambling down the hallway at that exact moment.
Pow. "Carrying ammunition to school."
As he said at the time, he realized it was contraband, wondered what the hell to do it about it, since he was now in school, at his locker, with the thing in his hand, and would have been perfectly happy to have had it confiscated. Which he in fact said to the officer. "I forgot I had it. If you want it, that's fine by me." And that's where it should have ended, considering that he had never been a discipline problem, threatened nobody, did nothing to "hide" it or lie about it, offered no resistance or attitude, and essentially volunteered it.
But it was also 14 years ago, so he really doesn't care at this point.
So....this is 1999? Pre or post Columbine?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on March 26, 2013, 12:04:55 AM
So....this is 1999? Pre or post Columbine?
Hmm. I honestly don't remember. It might have been right after...which would explain the hypersensitivity.
Quote from: RRLE on March 25, 2013, 10:30:50 PM
Paintball is fun but don't think for a moment that a paintball cannot put out an eye. That is why paintballers wear protective gear.
So can we have the "rest of the story".
Wait, what?
Yeah, "Oh, whoops, left a paintball in my pocket. *splat* Oh, man, that paintball totally hit you in the eye at 300fps from a dead stop!"
Those deadly self-projecting paintballs. Man.
A paintball is not dangerous by itself and can no more be considered ammunition than a loose bullet that is not in a cartridge with propellant. I cannot imagine a school reacting as described even in today's environment of overly heightened fear and overreactions. The only situation that I can imagine a school official giving a kid a hard time over this is if the kid was a known troublemaker and the official was using this as an excuse to mess with him.
They put an entire school district here in lockdown last month because someone found a round on the sidewalk near one of the schools.
Quote from: EMT-83 on March 26, 2013, 04:10:32 PM
They put an entire school district here in lockdown last month because someone found a round on the sidewalk near one of the schools.
When I was a kid, that would have happened all the time...I filled my pockets with .22LRs and went out shooting gophers lots of days after school...they were kind of like change or money in pockets...grab a jacket and find ammo there all the time.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 26, 2013, 04:12:20 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on March 26, 2013, 04:10:32 PM
They put an entire school district here in lockdown last month because someone found a round on the sidewalk near one of the schools.
When I was a kid, that would have happened all the time...I filled my pockets with .22LRs and went out shooting gophers lots of days after school...they were kind of like change or money in pockets...grab a jacket and find ammo there all the time.
Memories.
A million years ago, in the 70's, I had a watchband like this:
(http://www.ofrei.com/images/rmod03a.jpg)
There was a time when "bullet belts" and similar were all the rage, so at some point, I replaced the metal rings with expended 22 shells
I found in the basement.
Then of course, I realized "What would be even cooler then expended shells? Why live ones of course!"
Yes, for more then a short while I had 8 live 22 rounds on my watch. No one noticed, not even my dad, and they were his bullets!
I don't think I ever told anyone they were live.
I'm lucky / surprised I didn't blow my arm off or hurt someone...
I used to have a .22 round in the "Levi's" tab on the pocket flap of my jean jacket back in my school days (Late 80's/early 90's). Was actually a big fad then. You couldn't have a Levi's jean jacket without it. Nothing was said. Was a city school too!
I had M16 rounds on a keychain during high school, and we would carry paintball guns into buildings, and even modified them in metal shop.. I can't even imagine doing that in this era.
Heck, that would make the newspaper.. but back then, making mods to Nelspot pistols and turning the semi-automatic SMG-60 into full automatic, with a hopper that held a 2-liter bottle worth of balls.. Lots of fun. Back then.
Interesting how things changed.
20 years ago I worked OT assignments at Belmont HS in downtown L.A. 6300+ students, biggest HS in the USA. In the 1920s and 1930s it was exceptional, Jack Webb graduated from there as well as lots of famous people.
Walking the perimeter you find guns and knives every day. Armed robberies in the hallways occurred and all kinds of crazy stuff. One time I was proneing out armed gangmembers in front of the principal's office. She came out and said, "OH MY !!!" and disappeared back in her office.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on March 26, 2013, 03:30:02 PM
A paintball is not dangerous by itself and can no more be considered ammunition than a loose bullet that is not in a cartridge with propellant. I cannot imagine a school reacting as described even in today's environment of overly heightened fear and overreactions. The only situation that I can imagine a school official giving a kid a hard time over this is if the kid was a known troublemaker and the official was using this as an excuse to mess with him.
we are talking the same teachers that suspend and expel kids over brining lego figures with guns or plastic picnic knovs to cut their food because they feel it violates the 0 tolerance weapons policy.
mk