So 39-1 says the "The Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform", in regard to the sage nomex flight suit. OK, AF wants to protect their baby and keep distinction, fine.
So, Vanguard (and others) do sell a black A-2, and I've seen people wear these....
But again, 39-1 says "The green flight jacket is the only outer garment authorized for wear with the green AF-style flight suit". So, unless I'm missing something you cannot wear the black A-2 either.
So, one might assume the only application for the black A-2 is with a distinctive uniform, but in that case there's no restriction anyway... right?
So, in summary, what's the point of the black A-2?
I've seen it only worn with Blues.
Quote from: rframe on January 23, 2013, 03:31:05 PM
So, in summary, what's the point of the black A-2?
The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms. For example, you could wear it over the blue flight suit or the grey/white aviator combo. It's purpose is to provide a uniform-appearance outerwear option for corporate uniforms that permits the wear of CAP insignia. While one could also wear a civilian jacket with those items, he or she could not put CAP insignia on the civilian item. So one cannot buy a purple civilian jacket and festoon it with one's CAP aircrew-style-flight-nameplate, because of CAPM 39-1's restrictions on CAP insignia. That's the purpose of the CAP black A-2.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 23, 2013, 03:42:46 PM
I've seen it only worn with Blues.
And those are the opportunities to either exercise extreme tact with that person or that person's chain to gently remind them that not only is that combo not authorized, the 39-1 specifically goes out of its way to note that this is prohibited. It's clear as day that it's not to be done. No fudge factor.
Quote from: Pylon on January 23, 2013, 03:52:44 PM
The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.
OK, I can see where someone might want to do that. Where did you find this? I dont see it in 39-1.
I have one that I got off Evilbay for a fraction of what it would have been new.
I have it badged correctly with the CAP MAJCOM shield and brown/black leather aircrew patch Velcro'd on.
I wear it with the blue flight/utility suit, G/W kit, and BBDU's. I used to wear it with the CSU. If I'm going somewhere "extended" after a CAP activity, I'll take the insignia off and hey, presto! civilian leather jacket.
I've never seen it worn with blues. When I wear blues, I wear the waist-length blue jacket.
However, I do know of someone who wears a correctly badged green MA-1 with the G/W.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 23, 2013, 04:21:10 PMIf I'm going somewhere "extended" after a CAP activity, I'll take the insignia off and hey, presto! civilian leather jacket.
Yeah, that's why I was looking at them.
It's cold here in winter, so definitely need a jacket, but then realized the black leather is not supposed to be worn with a sage green nomex flight suit (though apparently a highly flammable MA-1 is just fine ::) ).... so might have to go find a blue flight suit.... still might be worth it versus spending $75-100 on a used nomex green jacket that would never get worn anywhere other than to CAP...
I love my A2. Wearing it today, in fact. Possibly the single best CAP uniform "investment" I have made.
And it's fun. I have a pocket full of velcro "morale patches" I wear when not using it for CAP.
Things like logos for local sports teams, plus all the usual ones from the military.
My wife's favorite is the "Cult Leader" patch. It means different things to different people. 8)
I wonder if anybody has successfully acid dyed a sage green flight suit to royal blue?
They are expensive!
* Then again, I'm not sure if that'd affect the fire resistant properties?
Added:
I read up on nomex and see no reason why dye would affect the fire resistance as its a property of the material, not a coating. People have successfully dyed nomex and it's often done for "Ghost Buster" costumes where they will go from sage or tan to a light gray with good results. I'm seriously considering trying this as I can find $30 FleaBay sage green suits in good condition all day long and dye is only a few dollars. I guess worst case I'd be out $35 or so...
Keep an eye this site, things usually pop up for sale. I believe these have been available in the past for much less than what you would pay on the market (mainly Vanguard).
I bought my black A-2 from Amazon for about $140. I got a brown A-2 from Pop's Leather about 8 years ago for the same amount. Actually a buddy and former cadet of mine got it for me on one of his deployments as a KC-135 driver. I thought about putting the command patch and brown/black name tag on mine, but I figure it's still legal without them so I left them off and don't worry about wearing it with civvies.
Quote from: rframe on January 23, 2013, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 23, 2013, 03:52:44 PM
The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.
OK, I can see where someone might want to do that. Where did you find this? I dont see it in 39-1.
ICL to CAPM 39-1 (12 Mar 2012) states: "A black leather jacket with side entry and patch pockets similar in style to the A-2 jacket is approved for wear by CAP senior members with the aviator shirt combinations, utility uniform, CAP flight suit or CAP polo shirt with gray slacks. The CAP Command Patch will be worn on the right breast, with the two-toned black with brown insert leather name patch on the left breast pocket."
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 23, 2013, 03:42:46 PM
I've seen it only worn with Blues.
If you're referring to the blue service uniform, then it's being worn improperly. The back A-2 is not authorized with any Air Force-style uniform.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 24, 2013, 01:01:27 PM
Quote from: rframe on January 23, 2013, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 23, 2013, 03:52:44 PM
The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.
OK, I can see where someone might want to do that. Where did you find this? I dont see it in 39-1.
ICL to CAPM 39-1 (12 Mar 2012) states: "A black leather jacket with side entry and patch pockets similar in style to the A-2 jacket is approved for wear by CAP senior members with the aviator shirt combinations, utility uniform, CAP flight suit or CAP polo shirt with gray slacks. The CAP Command Patch will be worn on the right breast, with the two-toned black with brown insert leather name patch on the left breast pocket."
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 23, 2013, 03:42:46 PM
I've seen it only worn with Blues.
If you're referring to the blue service uniform, then it's being worn improperly. The back A-2 is not authorized with any Air Force-style uniform.
Nor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 25, 2013, 12:21:23 AMNor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.
CAPM 39-1 page 34 paragraph 9:
QuoteThe Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform. The MA-1 flight jacket or the CWU-45/P or CWU-36/P Nomex flight jackets may be worn.
Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.
I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.
^ For clarity, the above cite is in regards to flight suits only.
Flight jackets are not authorized to be worn with USAF-Style blues.
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.
To further emphasize from 39-1. With the green flight suit,
The green flight jacket is the only outer garment authorized for wear with
the green AF-style flight suit. Grade insignia, CAP command patch,
American flag and leather name patch are worn.So you can't wear a black (or other color) CWU/45, CWU/27, or MA-1.... green only.
I'm pretty well decided to say to heck with the green flight suit, what a pain.
With the blue flight suit a blue flight jacket is recommended, but not required.
A number of USAF pilots are quite sensitive about the flight suit and its appearance. There are those among them who think ONLY PILOTS should wear them. Though then they have to concede to people who fly on the airplane who aren't pilots, but they tend to be dismissive of them.
Frankly, in my opinion, the flight suit is a reasonably comfortable, fairly-functional, low-MX uniform. I don't really care who can or can't wear it. I am glad I get to wear mine, but I don't lose sleep over who else gets to. Frankly, one of the best things about some of the other career fields that wear them is it [aggravates the emotionally insecure and self-righteous] who feel all entitled about it. :angel: >:D
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.
Now THAT'S a good use for one!
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on January 26, 2013, 01:22:27 AM
A number of USAF pilots are quite sensitive about the flight suit and its appearance. There are those among them who think ONLY PILOTS should wear them. Though then they have to concede to people who fly on the airplane who aren't pilots, but they tend to be dismissive of them.
Yes...all those loadmasters, flight engineers, navigators, WSO's, etc. should wear something else. ::)
To say nothing of those aircrews in the Navy, Marines, Coast Guard (I'm not sure if Army aviators wear it or have their own kit), RAAF, RAN, RNZAF, RNZN, police aviators, FBI, CBP, NOAA, et. al.
Personally, I think that the blue/grey German flight suits are cooler anyway.
(http://www.haas-ausruestungen.de/Images/bw-suits-003.jpg)
Well I can now confirm that dyeing a nomex flight suit doesn't work. I soaked mine in a big pot full of boiling/simmering water and two bottles of navy blue rit dye and 1.5 cups of vinegar for two hours. It really looked like it was turning a rich dark blue. Then I washed it and....TADA! it was a green flight suit again. LOL, oh well, it was worth a shot.
I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.
I read up on it a bit and there were some chemical reports online that were mostly way over my head which explained the technical difficulties in dyeing nomex. Basically nomex (aramid) is somewhere between nylon and kevlar in composition. While nylon can be successfully dyed (the velcro on the suits dyes very nicely) the aramid has some chemical bonding problems that make it very difficult. The color in these suits is generally solution dyed, meaning the color is added during manufacture of the fibers and not added later. The chemistry involved in most common types of dyeing simply dont work on nomex. Some of the reports suggest that using certain types of alcohol or liquid carbon dioxide as a wetting agent instead of water might work, but that's not practical for home use. Also, the chemical reports suggest that using a "basic dye" might work, but these are highly toxic and not recommended for home use.
There are some forums online where fantasy fans use nomex flight suits to build costumes and they've been shown dyeing tan flight suits to grey. They claim to use a whole bunch of dryer sheets to "remove" the fire resistant coating. That's nonsense because there is no coating on nomex. What I suspect they are actually doing is creating a layer of waxy residue and that is what is picking up their dye pigments. I suspect that in a good hot wash, the dryer sheet build up would melt off along with the color.
My curiosity got the best of me and I decided to try the $5 experiment myself, but skipping the dryer sheet method for reasons I'll explain below.
Nomex's fire resistance is at the fiber level, it's inherent in the material, so there is no coating to remove and it doesnt lose it's resistance... but you can effectively over-ride it's fire protection by adding coatings...like, for instance, a bunch of dryer sheet waxy build up :P
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on January 26, 2013, 01:22:27 AM
A number of USAF pilots are quite sensitive about the flight suit and its appearance. There are those among them who think ONLY PILOTS should wear them. Though then they have to concede to people who fly on the airplane who aren't pilots, but they tend to be dismissive of them.
Frankly, in my opinion, the flight suit is a reasonably comfortable, fairly-functional, low-MX uniform. I don't really care who can or can't wear it. I am glad I get to wear mine, but I don't lose sleep over who else gets to. Frankly, one of the best things about some of the other career fields that wear them is it [aggravates the emotionally insecure and self-righteous] who feel all entitled about it. :angel: >:D
(http://farvatoons.com/comics/2012-11-12.jpg)
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.
Nomex flight suits do not get a fire retardant treatment, like soaking a cotton coverall in boric acid solution. The fire resistance is inherent in the Nomex fiber itself, It doesn't wash out. It doesn't wear out. The same goes for the color. It's inherent in the fiber when manufactured.
Since it is a synthetic fiber, it doesn't have the same ability as animal fibers to soak up dies, etc. You get the same result trying to dye polyester and other synthetics.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 26, 2013, 10:44:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.
Nomex flight suits do not get a fire retardant treatment, like soaking a cotton coverall in boric acid solution. The fire resistance is inherent in the Nomex fiber itself, It doesn't wash out. It doesn't wear out. The same goes for the color. It's inherent in the fiber when manufactured.
Since it is a synthetic fiber, it doesn't have the same ability as animal fibers to soak up dies, etc. You get the same result trying to dye polyester and other synthetics.
UV light will break it down over time though. That's why I keep my Nomex flash hood in the pocket of my bunker pants instead of hanging out where it will absorb all that light. The less exposure time it gets, the longer it will last.
http://siri.org/msds/mf/dupont/nomex.html (http://siri.org/msds/mf/dupont/nomex.html)
Agreed.
UV will break down most plastics that aren't UV-passivated.
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 25, 2013, 12:21:23 AMNor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.
CAPM 39-1 page 34 paragraph 9:
QuoteThe Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform. The MA-1 flight jacket or the CWU-45/P or CWU-36/P Nomex flight jackets may be worn.
Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.
I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.
I collect A-2s. I have one nice brown goatskin Cooper, one black one, and several knockoffs. I got the black one for $5.00 at the Sal-i-vation Army store, it was hardly worn. Had the local leather guy sew velcro on it, got name tag and CAP patch from Scamguard, and there it was. I also favor an A-2 for motorcycle riding in the summer, though it would not give much protection in a crash.
My son was always trying to heist my Cooper from me, so I got him ANOTHER brown one from a flea market, and he loves it. His has an escape map in the liner. It is centered on Cleveland, which I find funny.
Anyway, I only wear my black A-2 with the polo shirt/grey pants. I love to find old A-2s at thrift stores, resurrect them with the mink oil treatment, and present them to friends. I am a pilot, though I don't have CAP wings yet. The black A-2 looks great and is one of the privileges of being a pilot.
Ten points if you know exactly why A-2s have shoulder straps so securely sewn on.
Quote from: Newslick on February 11, 2013, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 25, 2013, 12:21:23 AMNor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.
CAPM 39-1 page 34 paragraph 9:
QuoteThe Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform. The MA-1 flight jacket or the CWU-45/P or CWU-36/P Nomex flight jackets may be worn.
Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.
I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.
I collect A-2s. I have one nice brown goatskin Cooper, one black one, and several knockoffs. I got the black one for $5.00 at the Sal-i-vation Army store, it was hardly worn. Had the local leather guy sew velcro on it, got name tag and CAP patch from Scamguard, and there it was. I also favor an A-2 for motorcycle riding in the summer, though it would not give much protection in a crash.
My son was always trying to heist my Cooper from me, so I got him ANOTHER brown one from a flea market, and he loves it. His has an escape map in the liner. It is centered on Cleveland, which I find funny.
Anyway, I only wear my black A-2 with the polo shirt/grey pants. I love to find old A-2s at thrift stores, resurrect them with the mink oil treatment, and present them to friends. I am a pilot, though I don't have CAP wings yet. The black A-2 looks great and is one of the privileges of being a pilot.
Ten points if you know exactly why A-2s have shoulder straps so securely sewn on.
Not sure, but now I'm curious.
Here's a pic of mine (and my little one :)). We went to the aquarium on Saturday, she loved it!
(http://tinyurl.com/ad7nacg)
Mine is a Pack-In Products, Inc. 647 SM. Has the faux natural sheep fleece on the inside. Nice and comfy!
Cute Kid.
A-2s vary as to how faithful to the original they are. Yours looks like it has extra pocket on the left sleeve, which IMHO is a good addition (pen, mini maglite with red filter). Most now have side entry pockets next to the hidden snap flap ones on front. They did not originally have those, lest personnel walk around with their hands in their pockets.
When the A-2 was originally designed in the 30s, primary military flight instruction was in open cockpit biplanes. The straps, with the distinctive boxed x stitch on the end towards the neck, served as handles strong enough to pull a pilot out of a wreck!
If anyone makes it to the Udvar-Hazy Museum, there is a nice display of vintage and celebrity A-2s in glass cases on the ground floor, Chuck Yeager, etc.
Also, the A-2 is a summer weight flying jacket, so the sheepskin lining, faux or otherwise, is a rather broad interpretation. A-2's had silk linings.
The sheepskin lined winter flying jacket was a B-3, seen in my youth on the TV show "12 O'Clock High".
Quote from: Brad on February 11, 2013, 01:37:47 AM
Here's a pic of mine (and my little one :)). We went to the aquarium on Saturday, she loved it!
(http://tinyurl.com/ad7nacg)
Mine is a Pack-In Products, Inc. 647 SM. Has the faux natural sheep fleece on the inside. Nice and comfy!
Are you wearing a Stormtrooper (or is it called the Imperial pilot) wing?
Quote from: vento on February 11, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Are you wearing a Stormtrooper (or is it called the Imperial pilot) wing?
Yep. My 501st character is a Tie Pilot. I don't have my black helmet and armor bits yet, but finishing the payments soon. The wings are some swag items we can get if we want. 501st members only though per our policy and Lucasfilm though, so sorry.
Quote from: Brad on February 11, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: vento on February 11, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Are you wearing a Stormtrooper (or is it called the Imperial pilot) wing?
Yep. My 501st character is a Tie Pilot. I don't have my black helmet and armor bits yet, but finishing the payments soon. The wings are some swag items we can get if we want. 501st members only though per our policy and Lucasfilm though, so sorry.
Many years ago before the 501st got huge and let clone troopers in I was a member of the Midwest Garrison, Designation number TR-113. 8) ;D
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on February 12, 2013, 04:17:30 AM
Quote from: Brad on February 11, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: vento on February 11, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Are you wearing a Stormtrooper (or is it called the Imperial pilot) wing?
Yep. My 501st character is a Tie Pilot. I don't have my black helmet and armor bits yet, but finishing the payments soon. The wings are some swag items we can get if we want. 501st members only though per our policy and Lucasfilm though, so sorry.
Many years ago before the 501st got huge and let clone troopers in I was a member of the Midwest Garrison, Designation number TR-113. 8) ;D
I tend to ignore the Clone Troopers and their ilk. I'm original trilogy all the way :)
And yea that's what I figured the shoulder straps were for.
I was 13 and became involved with CAP the year the original Star Wars came out. The sci-fi of my real youth was the original Star trek, Jonny Quest, and Space Angel.
Down here in Southern Illinois, one of the local stations produced a 1/2 hour children's show called The Funny Company that was hosted by a character called Cactus Pete. Later on the host was Uncle Briggs. It was through this show I learned about the Three Stooges, Bugs Bunny, Charlie Chaplin, Deputy Dawg, Clutch Cargo, and Space Angel. Pre-WIWAC!
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on January 26, 2013, 01:22:27 AM
Frankly, one of the best things about some of the other career fields that wear them is it [aggravates the emotionally insecure and self-righteous] who feel all entitled about it. :angel: >:D
The other day I saw a T-shirt with a UAV (Global Hawk I believe) Caption said "pilots and crew chiefs have been around forever. One of these is now irrelevant" Even as a CAP pilot I found it humerous >:D
As far as the leather jacket, the biggest difference I've seen is the seam down the middle of the back on most commercial jackets where two pieces of leather are used for he jacket instead of one. All the actual aircrew A-2s I've seen have a one piece back.
I am pretty sure you are correct about the back, but I have seen pix of a guy in the Korean War clearly wearing an A-2 with a two piece back. The jacket may have been from WWII, but they let personnel wear them if they already had them, I guess. Or the guy bought it from a civilian supplier in the 50s and used it as uniform. They certainly made them commercially by then.
They stopped issuing leather A-2s in 1943, but they were so much in demand that a cottage industry arose in England to make A-2s for personnel who could not get them any more! I am sure some of those civilian/uniform jackets had two piece backs.
I have seen as many as five pieces used to make the back of a cheap copy A-2, and some are even made of many leather scraps, which they like to call "diamond plate". I'd never attempt to use one of those for a uniform item, or anything else for that matter.