My Squadron Commander frequently makes rude comments about the President during meetings. Regardless of your political opinions I think this is inappropriate because he is the Commander-in-Chief.
What can I do about this? He's notorious for retaliating against criticism as is the Group Commander.
You can call him on it publicly as "inappropriate", file a complaint, or just FIMO.
Don't criticize then, just tell him that we have more important things to take care of than the president, it's not like we can do anything about him right now anyway. But right now we can train, or we can teach, or I can go home and do something productive. I'm no fan of the guy holding the position either, but come on, nothing you can do about it on CAP time.
Our core values... <sigh>
You can always jump to wing and use the magic words of " hostile work environment" >:D
Quote from: RNOfficer on January 05, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
My Squadron Commander frequently makes rude comments about the President during meetings. Regardless of your political opinions I think this is inappropriate because he is the Commander-in-Chief.
Incorrect. Our Chain of Command ends with the National Commander, currently MG Carr.
Quote from: CAPR 20-1
Section D−Command Responsibilities
13. Chain of Command. CAP commanders operate through the following chain of command in the order shown below and illustrated in figure 3.
a. National Commander
b. Region Commander
c. Wing Commander
d. Group Commander
e. Squadron Commander
f. Flight Commander
14. Commander
Quote from: RNOfficer on January 05, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
Regardless of your political opinions I think this is inappropriate.
This I agree with.
He's commander in chief of the armed forces, which we are not a part of. We are civilians. We can say what we think.
Quote from: Thrashed on January 05, 2013, 11:07:01 PM
He's commander in chief of the armed forces, which we are not a part of. We are civilians. We can say what we think.
We should also remember our core values of respect. While we are not required to refrain from such conduct as described, good leaders should know better, and that it is not an appropriate time or place.
I should clarify that meetings are not the proper place for such discussions. What does politics have to do with aerospace education?
Generally speaking, when you bring groups of people together into an organization that is not political or religious, people with any level of social awareness would know better. Not that you cant discuss things, but its best to know your audience. As far as what you can do about it? You can just ignore it and do what you come to CAP for, change units, file a stack of grievances. Me..... I would just come to the meeting, nod and smile and have fun.
Quote from: Thrashed on January 05, 2013, 11:07:01 PM
He's commander in chief of the armed forces, which we are not a part of. We are civilians. We can say what we think.
However, once the uniform is on, you should play the part. A CAP Officer (a presumed gentlemen) should have the social awareness to realize that the Core Value of 'Respect' is not just limited to politicians that he agrees with. It's frankly rude and ungentlemanly to discuss such matters in a public service organization. Also, cadets are at an impressionable age where comments against the President (who is the the Command in Chief of CAP's parent service, as well as the nations Chief Executive elected according to the law of the land) are probably not the best thing for them to hear from an officer in a position of responsibility.
At my job, depending on which day I'm working, I'm either with a team who shares similar political views to mine, or a team who has very different political views then mine. As much as we bust on each others chops and joke about who's candidate of choice is ruining the world more, it stays within our station house. It doesn't get discussed with the public, or patients, or hospital staff. Because once the uniform is on, we're held to a higher and different standard then 'Civilians.' Perhaps CAP would be taken more seriously in certain quarters if the 'We're civilians, and we can say what we want (and as implied, when we want).' position some members take was discouraged.
(Edited for typo. Also, to finish a sentence)
^^^^^ This.
:clap:
Pass it on.
JayT:
One word:
WOW!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Could not have said it better!
Flyer
Thread over. :clap:
I agreewith Jay, butit does seem a lot of people on this site and in CAP in general dont care for the current POTUS. Which for me and my community(Squadron) is a big problem. I wish it weent like that. Like was said earlier. We should all be professional especially in front of cadets. i am a cadet programs guy and I take it very serioussly the example we set for them. I hear cadets saying rude comments and I correct them. Rudness is not something we should instil in our young people.
As with many environments, I'm a fan of having folks leave religion, politics, and their biases on Apple vs PC/Android/non-Apple electronics at the door. Not everyone feels that way, I know, and some people may just be pre-programmed to bring up or push their opinions wherever they may be. It may not be right, but they're going to do it regardless of the feelings and opinions of others.
Now, if it's done around cadets, that might be worth pursuing harder, and getting resolution on it.
It's quite odd. During the last administration I didn't hear much of this. With the current POTUS I'm hearing a LOT, even out of cadets.
Thats my point. CAP is full of a bunch of conservative people. Just like the militay ( and I have 24 years experience) is mostly filled with conservative people. But I come from an inner city squadron 100% African AMerican. So, to us those kindsof statements are very offensive. We want to volunteer and do our part just ike everyone else. but many of us feel CAP can be a hostile environment towards us. I am just speaking the truth from what I hear people tell me.
Again, I am a military Officer and as such, I represent the POTUS wheather it be a Democrat or a Republican. makes no difference. I cant bad mouth him or her in public. Its against UCMJ. Enlisted members of the military have a differant standard. They are free to expres their opinions as long as they are not doing it in uniform or at a militay function. But because officers are commissioned by the POYUS, we are a direct representative of him.
In other words like it or not. We fight for the Constitution, but we dont have the same rights of it that civilians do. A higher standard is expected of this nations officers.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 07, 2013, 05:50:37 AM
It's quite odd. During the last administration I didn't hear much of this. With the current POTUS I'm hearing a LOT, even out of cadets.
Blame that on social media. 99% of those who say disparaging things about our leaders get their "facts" from MyTwitSpace, and
actually have no idea what they are saying, or who they are saying it about.
That, or they are parroting their parents who are likely equally, or even less informed.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with a policy (on your own time, not in >any< uniform, and certainly not on CAP time), but that's not enough anymore, we have to disparage the person to the point of irrational, undeserved hatred.
We no longer require of our media, nor instill in our children, a "common sense filter". Without that, everything is a "true fact" and all
information is "equal".
We meet in the Army Reserve building in town. The lobby has a row of photos showing the chain of command up to POTUS. Just prior to the election, a group of cadets & SMs were hanging out in the lobby before the meeting. I was standing next to the CC (a 22 year AF veteran, and former cadet with at least 15 total years in CAP). One of our younger cadets is a very good cadet and super enthusiastic, but sometime a bit outspoken. He started to say something about "Did you see the thing I posted on Facebook about Obama...". I stopped him short, and asked him to turn around.
"What photos are on the wall, cadet"
"The army chain of command, sir"
"Who's photo is all the way to the left?"
"President Obama's, sir"
We then had a calm & polite conversation about several things. We talked about the public perception of us in uniform (it was blues night). We discussed how politics and religion are things that really shouldn't be discussed at a CAP meeting and why. I'm the CDI, so I mentioned how I work hard to keep my personal religious beliefs out of our CharDev discussions. The CC backed me up with some similar comments.
I've only had these kinds of situations with cadets, around the 13-15 year-old range. This past election cycle, one of my close squadron pals was actively campaigning for a certain candidate but once we were at the meeting, it wasn't brought up.
Especially when it comes to cadets, the topics of politics and religion need to be kept out of the conversation. While I'm an Independent, my wife is not and is passionate about her political beliefs. As a family, we're very active in our chosen faith and spend a lot of time and energy teaching our children our beliefs. I would be a little upset if someone at the squadron with differing views tried to undermine what I teach my children in these areas. (And before anyone starts with a brainwashing comment, I was raised to learn to think critically and I teach my children the same. I've told them they need to come to their own personal conviction about our beliefs).
I'm not sure I would feel as strongly about it in a SM unit, though. While common sense should dictate that those are hot-button topics and should be handled lightly, I've never worked at a place where I wasn't the odd man out in one way or another. Having a thick skin and not being easily offended is part of being an adult. There's a certain point where things could get ... hostile, so it's best to leave that talk for when one is with a personal group.
I work hard in CAP to keep my personal beliefs from influencing cadets away from anything their parents might be teaching them, and I would expect the same courtesy in return for my children.
Way back in the early 60's the Army drilled into us 'you salute the rank' not the man. Same goes for respect of the office, no matter what that person may do, or not do, while in that office. From squadron CC's up to prez, though not directly in our chain of command, we salute say 'yes,sir' and carry on.
There was a time when basic etiquette dictated that religion and politics were never discussed in polite company.
These days the culture of me insinuates that not only is every opinion "equal" (hint, it ain't), but that not only is everyone interested (hint: they aren't),
it's your duty to share (hint: it ain't).
The only upside it that it makes it easier to identify people to place on the "do not call" list.
As CAP members we are to maintain a professional appearance when in uniform or when at a meeting in civilian clothes. It is unprofessional for anyone to speak bad of an elected/ appointed official when at meetings, functions, or in uniform, PERIOD.
I was in a unit where the commander and I disagreed about the former president's policy and who would be better in office, but we would never bring it up in front of cadets, even when they said something.
Even a local school board would keep this policy. Two of our cadets came in and told us that a teacher was given her last warning about saying bad things about President Bush. The school said that they were to maintain a balanced approach since the district had more liberal teachers and conservative parents.
They did not allow groups that were far right or left in. This is how CAP needs to be when in uniform and when at a meeting.
During some flooding years ago, the local Congressman was on hand to help out alongside the community and CAP. He was also at one of the units annual dinners I believe.
While I do not support the man due to his party affiliation, I had the chance to talk to him on a few occasions when I was in high school, and when he was running for President Obama's previous Senate seat. I even took a picture with him on election day and wished him luck, even though I voted against him not 20 minutes prior. When he had a medical emergency, I wished the man luck and recovery.
I didn't like George Bush, but I also had little skin in the game (being 14 during his re-election). I was hoping Kerry would win, but once it was obvious that he lost, I wished President Bush the best and hoped he would lead the nation well in his second term.
There's nothing wrong with not liking policy. Nothing wrong with voting against someone because you don't agree with them on some/most/all issues. But there is nothing WORSE than making it personal.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 07, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
During some flooding years ago, the local Congressman was on hand to help out alongside the community and CAP. He was also at one of the units annual dinners I believe.
He was actually there to present the DR-V's for the flooding. He was also inducted as a Legislative Member.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 07, 2013, 07:48:45 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 07, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
During some flooding years ago, the local Congressman was on hand to help out alongside the community and CAP. He was also at one of the units annual dinners I believe.
He was actually there to present the DR-V's for the flooding. He was also inducted as a Legislative Member.
And I'm betting no one batted one eye as to his party affiliation.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 07, 2013, 08:04:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 07, 2013, 07:48:45 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 07, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
During some flooding years ago, the local Congressman was on hand to help out alongside the community and CAP. He was also at one of the units annual dinners I believe.
He was actually there to present the DR-V's for the flooding. He was also inducted as a Legislative Member.
And I'm betting no one batted one eye as to his party affiliation.
I don't believe it ever came up in conversation...
This is inappropriate for any CAP member in their public role in CAP, whatever their function or assignment.
The same applies to members of Congress, state legislators & governors, local officials, and for the matter serving personnel of the Armed Forces.
We are all entitled to express our opinions, but a public, volunteer organization (especially in the presence of cadets or seniors subordinate in rank/position) is not the place to do this.
These discussions should be reserved to times when in the company of one's peers; in addition, even then, if someone is made uncomfortable by it, the conversation should be re-directed.
This is simple courtesy.
If anyone wants to call radio talk shows, write letters to editors, post on political blogs or forums, or become actively involved in partisan politics, then that's what they should do.
CAP, however, is not the place for it.
It may not be a violation of the UCMJ for us, like it is with military personnel, but it's still very bad form.
It's even worse to insult another CAP member because of their political leanings (if known).
Quote from: Eclipse on January 07, 2013, 04:18:27 PM
There was a time when basic etiquette dictated that religion and politics were never discussed in polite company.
+1
Most people in America do not understand the concept of "manners".
Quote from: RNOfficer on January 05, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
My Squadron Commander frequently makes rude comments about the President during meetings. Regardless of your political opinions I think this is inappropriate because he is the Commander-in-Chief.
What can I do about this? He's notorious for retaliating against criticism as is the Group Commander.
Not many helpful suggestions for dealing with this. Yes, I understand that most folks in CAP are politically conservative but I believe it is inappropriate to discuss politics at a meeting, particularly by the squadron commander while acting as commander.
Quote from: RNOfficer on January 08, 2013, 11:11:46 PM
Quote from: RNOfficer on January 05, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
My Squadron Commander frequently makes rude comments about the President during meetings. Regardless of your political opinions I think this is inappropriate because he is the Commander-in-Chief.
What can I do about this? He's notorious for retaliating against criticism as is the Group Commander.
Not many helpful suggestions for dealing with this. Yes, I understand that most folks in CAP are politically conservative but I believe it is inappropriate to discuss politics at a meeting, particularly by the squadron commander while acting as commander.
Tell that it is against the Core values, not appropriate behavior, document it, and prepare an IG case, if he retaliates.
I posted a thread similar to this before the last election.
The way I generally deal with it is:
If the instigator(s) of the conversation are of senior rank to me, I say respectfully "Sir/Ma'am, this is not the place for political discussions." If they persist, or especially if they belittle me, then I become somewhat less polite. If I end up with a 2B out of it...well, perhaps it's not an organisation I need to be part of any more. Fortunately, that hasn't happened (yet).
If the instigator(s) are of junior rank to me, I say politely, "this isn't the place for political discussions, new topic." If they persist I will say "Alright, you want to talk politics, don't do it in CAP uniform and on CAP time. I don't care what your politics are, but discuss them on your own time."