CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: SABRE17 on December 14, 2012, 05:37:26 AM

Title: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: SABRE17 on December 14, 2012, 05:37:26 AM
I was recently told by one of my roommates in college that one of the campus safety (not police, safety) officers was "mad" that I poses a handheld scanner while I live on my college's campus. I'm a pilot and a ground team member, and often tune over to the campus safety frequency on the weekends just to hear whats going on. What I'm just curious about is, does anyone know if there is there any college campus that has some sort of ban on handheld scanners? (besides states where its illegal to poses them), or if there is any other legal precedent that might have been set in the past.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: whatevah on December 14, 2012, 05:59:23 AM
A cursory google search didn't come up with anything, but if you look at your college website there should be a listing somewhere of prohibited items.  As a student, you have to follow their rules, especially if you live on campus.   If you goto DW, then it's not on their list of banned items.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: a2capt on December 14, 2012, 06:18:52 AM
800MHz is the ban. Not the scanner.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: JeffDG on December 14, 2012, 06:21:42 AM
Quote from: a2capt on December 14, 2012, 06:18:52 AM
800MHz is the ban. Not the scanner.
And I would guess that that falls somewhere under illegal wiretapping laws, since 800 MHz is cell-phones (among others)
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: whatevah on December 14, 2012, 06:23:46 AM
Modern scanners have internal programming to block the phone frequencies.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: SABRE17 on December 14, 2012, 06:24:31 AM
The frequency in question is in the 400's
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: a2capt on December 14, 2012, 06:26:55 AM
It originates in the middle of the AMPS era.  Once stuff went digital, it became moot, but public safety took over a portion of that bandwidth too, what isn't left with iDEN (Nextel), and that too is supposed to be folded soon.

The 800MHz ban is actually outdated and perhaps the FCC should let go of it since it was enacted for the protection of cellular communications.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: JeffDG on December 14, 2012, 06:33:11 AM
Quote from: a2capt on December 14, 2012, 06:26:55 AM
It originates in the middle of the AMPS era.  Once stuff went digital, it became moot, but public safety took over a portion of that bandwidth too, what isn't left with iDEN (Nextel), and that too is supposed to be folded soon.

The 800MHz ban is actually outdated and perhaps the FCC should let go of it since it was enacted for the protection of cellular communications.
Almost all cell phones still utilize the 800 MHz band.

We actually have a special air-card for GIIEP that does not use that band, all commercially available air cards utilize that band of frequencies at some time, and as such are not permitted to be used in flight.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: mwewing on December 14, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
I cannot comment on any relevant FCC regulations, nor can I speak on applicable state/local laws without knowing where you live. However, I seriously doubt any scanner you bought from a retail outlet violates any law or FCC regulation.

With regard to the college... I run a campus safety department at a university, and I have never heard of any college/university enacting such a ban. I would be shocked if such a rule existed anywhere. More than likely, this officer is upset that you have the ability to listen to their radio traffic and could be privy to the top secret, code word clearance information he/she wants you to believe they are involved with.

I tell all my officers to operate on the assumption that we are being listened to, and express themselves in a professional manner at all times. We have departmental policies governing communication of confidential information in order to comply with FERPA. Since the radio traffic can be listened to, we don't share that information over the radio. This sounds like ego and an unhealthy desire for power.

Check that you are in compliance with applicable laws and FCC regulations. Also check that no such policy exists for your college/university. Although, if you were actually in violation of any policy under control of the campus safety department, they would formally communicate directly with you, and instruct you to comply with the policy. They wouldn't be "mad," they would do their jobs.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Cool Mace on December 14, 2012, 03:38:49 PM
Quote from: mwewing on December 14, 2012, 03:24:56 PM

This sounds like ego and an unhealthy desire for power.


This was my first thought on the matter.

Like others have said. Check your college rules. They should be on the website, and if not, ask around till you find your answer.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: arajca on December 14, 2012, 03:58:29 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 14, 2012, 03:38:49 PM
Quote from: mwewing on December 14, 2012, 03:24:56 PM

This sounds like ego and an unhealthy desire for power.


This was my first thought on the matter.

Like others have said. Check your college rules. They should be on the website, and if not, ask around till you find your answer.
A starting point would be the Dept of Campus Safety. They should have a secretary or someone who can provide the information. Ask for a copy of the policy, not just if one exists.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: SABRE17 on December 14, 2012, 04:06:36 PM
I know for a fact that no such policy exists at my school. My question was if any knew of other schools that might have a similar policy, or if something resembling that policy anywhere has been struck down. 
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Cool Mace on December 14, 2012, 04:08:16 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 14, 2012, 04:06:36 PM
I know for a fact that no such policy exists at my school. My question was if any knew of other schools that might have a similar policy, or if something resembling that policy anywhere has been struck down.

Ah. In that case. I have never heard of such a thing. I might dig into some research on this now. Work can wait till Monday...  ;)
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: sardak on December 14, 2012, 05:11:17 PM
Quote800MHz is the ban. Not the scanner.
There is no ban on listening to 800 MHz frequencies. There are a number of scanners that legally follow trunked 800 MHz radio systems. There is a federal law against listening to cell phones, many of which transmit in a certain range of frequencies in the 800's (and higher). Hence the receivers that cover those freqs have the note "cellular frequencies blocked."

I suggest the question be posted over at Radio Reference, which is the place to go for info on radios and scanners. http://www.radioreference.com (http://www.radioreference.com)

Mike
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: SAREXinNY on December 16, 2012, 03:46:55 AM
I work in law enforcement, and here in NY there are laws that prohibit hand held scanners under certain circumstances.  I have no idea what state you are in, but we have the following law here in NY that does include hand held scanners, in addition to mobile units:

NYS V&T Law  397. EQUIPPING MOTOR VEHICLES WITH RADIO RECEIVING SETS CAPABLE OF RECEIVING SIGNALS ON THE FREQUENCIES ALLOCATED FOR POLICE USE.

A person, not a police officer or peace officer, acting pursuant to his special duties, who equips a motor vehicle with a radio receiving set capable of receiving signals on the frequencies allocated for police use or knowingly uses a motor vehicle so equipped or who in any way knowingly interferes with the transmission of radio messages by the police without having first secured a permit to do so from the person authorized to issue such a permit by the local governing body or board of the city, town or village in which such person resides, or where such person resides outside of a city, or village in a county having a county police department by the board of supervisors of such county, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars, or imprisonment not exceeding six months, or both. Nothing in this section contained shall be construed to apply to any person who holds a valid amateur radio operator's license issued by the federal communications commission and who operates a duly licensed portable mobile transmitter and in connection therewith a receiver or receiving set on frequencies exclusively allocated by the federal communications commission to duly licensed radio amateurs.


So, if you were here in NY...you could have one in your dorm room, but as soon as you are in your vehicle it's illegal.  He may just be a little suspicious as to why you have one.  I'd recommend you call the local or state PD and ask them if there are any laws pertaining to owning or operating a hand held scanner.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Al Sayre on December 16, 2012, 04:19:36 AM
My 1st question would be "How does he know you have it?"  Then "How does he know you are listening to campus security and not the local unicom frequency?"  Why is it any of his business?  Is he conducting warrant-less surveillance on you? Does he suspect you of some type of illegal activity?  Is he some kind of stalker?  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you...   >:D
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Brad on December 16, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
400 Mhz band? If he's really catching that much flak for it, just tell him to get his ham license and a UHF ham rig. Mine for example, while it can't transmit on it, it can still receive 400 Mhz public safety broadcasts. There's nothing illegal about that in any state, since it's simply a ham radio that happens to be scanning through that frequency when it picks up the transmission, and amateur radio is governed and protected specifically by the FCC.

http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/scanning_info/scanlaws.htm (http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/scanning_info/scanlaws.htm)
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Devil Doc on December 16, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
IMO, i dont think its illegal to "Scan" anything. Transmitting on the other hand is different. Even if it is illegal, they cant trace your scanner anyway. Its like this super secret squirrel were "they" dont want you to hear there conversation. Big deal, if they dont want you to receive there freq then they should scramble the code just like the military. I listen to my scanner all the time, in the car, in the house, at work in a Government Instillation. They have scanners on Smart phones now anyway, what they going to do ban smart phones?
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: JeffDG on December 16, 2012, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 16, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
They have scanners on Smart phones now anyway, what they going to do ban smart phones?
Haven't heard of a "scanner" per se on a smart phone (in that it actually has a RF receiver and can pick transmissions out of the air), but TuneIn Radio App has a lot of the public safety channels available.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Devil Doc on December 16, 2012, 03:15:16 PM
There is alot you can do on a Smart Phone that people dont realize. Ive heard of these RF Scanners on smart phones, unfortunatly, they wont tell me were to find them.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Brad on December 16, 2012, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 16, 2012, 03:15:16 PM
There is alot you can do on a Smart Phone that people dont realize. Ive heard of these RF Scanners on smart phones, unfortunatly, they wont tell me were to find them.

If you have an android just search scanner radio on google play, you'll find 'em. All they do is stream off radioreference.com.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: wuzafuzz on December 16, 2012, 04:05:11 PM
Scanner laws based on mere possession are good for one thing: ridicule.  Such laws do absolutely nothing to deter criminals but inconvenience everyone else. 

Technology is rapidly outpacing laws of that nature.  An example is a software defined radio, that can receive darn near anything with the right programming.  For all we know some car stereos are already software defined.

I suspect most states have laws that make it illegal to use radio in the furtherance of a crime.  That's perfectly reasonable IMHO.  Similar to burglar tools.  For instance a screwdriver isn't illegal by itself, but if you get caught using it to gain entry to a building or locked car your punishment might include an extra charge for burglar tools.  Of course laws vary by location.

 
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: Brad on December 16, 2012, 04:19:06 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 16, 2012, 04:05:11 PM
I suspect most states have laws that make it illegal to use radio in the furtherance of a crime.

Actually that's a federal crime under the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. Law enforcement would come down on you and the FCC would start Forfeiture proceedings....aka a really big fine.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-119 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-119)
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: JeffDG on December 16, 2012, 05:54:34 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 16, 2012, 04:05:11 PM
Scanner laws based on mere possession are good for one thing: ridicule.  Such laws do absolutely nothing to deter criminals but inconvenience everyone else. 
They're also highly suspect on 1st Amendment grounds.

Similar laws regarding recording or videotaping police officers while performing their duties are under assault in the courts, and most, if not all, are likely to be invalidated.
Title: Re: Hand held scanners, legal precedent on bans
Post by: a2capt on December 16, 2012, 06:57:41 PM
The irony there is in large cities the police have cameras all over the place, so it's okay for them to surveil you, but the minute someone is standing around filming them, some of them get all kinds of provocative and stupid. Which in turn serves as an enabler and encourager to the person with the camera and things go south from there.