We all know what Cadet Memory Work is... "Cadet Oath, Cadet Honor Code, Three Mission of C.A.P, Core Values, C.A.P Founding Date, USAF Founding Date, C.A.P Motto." I believe that the listed Memory Work should be asked in all Promotion Boards in Civil Air Patrol.
But my question is, how is "Definition of Leadership, Definition of Military Discipline, Definition of Teamwork, Definition of Follower ship, Definition of the Position of Attention, Value of Drill and Ceremonies, and the Preamble of the United States Constitution important in a Promotion Board? My opinion is, it's not important at all, and is a stupid thing to ask in a promotion board. Why do we need to know the Definition of Military Discipline, Leadership, Teamwork, and Follower ship when we learn about it while we progress through our C.A.P Career?
I would LOVE to hear your thoughts/opinions on this. Should the squadron I attend keep this in there Promotion Boards? Or should they delete it from the Promotion Board?
Have you read CAPR 52-16? Specifically section 5-2(d)?
What evaluation tool are you currently using to evaluate cadets at your squadron's promotion boards? If you're using anything other than the CAP Form 50, you're in violation of the regulations.
Now, let's look at CAPF 50. What are the basis listed for evaluating cadets? None of them is memory work.
Granted, yes, CAPR 52-16, Section 5-2(a)(3) does say that a cadet must be able to recite the cadet oath from memory in order to be eligible for a promotion. So checking that would be in compliance with the regulation. However, any other memory work would not only violate the regulatory standards for promotion boards, but would also not be in keeping with the intent of the promotion board system. They are to determine whether or not a cadet is ready to assume the responsibilities of a higher grade. And the intent of CAPF 50 reviews is to provide the cadet with constructive feedback about both their positive aspects as well as areas for improvement. I don't see how testing whether a cadet can memorize the rote definition of a phrase or a particular set of words is relevant to their ability to perform at a higher grade nor relevant to feedback on his or her leadership traits and abilities.
TL;DR version: Stop requiring memory work. Focus on comprehension of the material. You can teach me to recite something in Greek or Latin, but that doesn't mean I'll have any clue what it means. Which do you think is really better?
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
Knowing this sort of info for a promo board, however, is pretty stupid. It's more of a tool to process info and absorb it. Using it as a basis to promote is asinine. Critical thinking is a little more important. Having a better base of knowledge would be more beneficial, such as "you're Flight Sergeant of your flight at encampment. One cadet is constantly late to formation. His element leader has talked to him about it yet the problem persists. What is your next course of action?"
Applied knowledge of the position/grade. That's what I'm getting at.
I know that learning how memorize stuff as a cadet, like memory work, really helped me down the road when I started flying in the military.
Aviation, military aviation in particular, places great emphasis on memorization. Things like BOLD FACE, Cratical Action Procedures and Notes, Warnings and Cautions.
Learning General Washington's Code when I was 13 made it a bit easier to remember my KC-135 Bold Face when I was 25.
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
In 1982, I was taught, under some forms of stress and duress, the "mission of the United States Air Force."
I still know it, in the format in which I was taught, and can pop off at any second with it. :)
What I had for breakfast today? Ummmmm....
Quote from: MichaelC on December 10, 2012, 11:46:09 PM
We all know what Cadet Memory Work is... "Cadet Oath, Cadet Honor Code, Three Mission of C.A.P, Core Values, C.A.P Founding Date, USAF Founding Date, C.A.P Motto." I believe that the listed Memory Work should be asked in all Promotion Boards in Civil Air Patrol.
But my question is, how is "Definition of Leadership, Definition of Military Discipline, Definition of Teamwork, Definition of Follower ship, Definition of the Position of Attention, Value of Drill and Ceremonies, and the Preamble of the United States Constitution important in a Promotion Board? My opinion is, it's not important at all, and is a stupid thing to ask in a promotion board. Why do we need to know the Definition of Military Discipline, Leadership, Teamwork, and Follower ship when we learn about it while we progress through our C.A.P Career?
I would LOVE to hear your thoughts/opinions on this. Should the squadron I attend keep this in there Promotion Boards? Or should they delete it from the Promotion Board?
Yes you do learn these things as you progress through cap, but if you know these things it will help you to have a lot more respect for everything and/or help you understand it more. They are just making sure you know it so it can help them decide if you should promote or not. As for the teamwork, leadership, and follower ship, they need to make sure you understand it so you can be an example, that also helps them decide whether you should promote or not.
Quote from: CadetColonelToBe on December 11, 2012, 02:02:27 AM
Yes you do learn these things as you progress through cap, but if you know these things it will help you to have a lot more respect for everything and/or help you understand it more. They are just making sure you know it so it can help them decide if you should promote or not. As for the teamwork, leadership, and follower ship, they need to make sure you understand it so you can be an example, that also helps them decide whether you should promote or not.
So is being able to recite the exact book definition the same thing as understanding the concept?
Quote from: Pylon on December 11, 2012, 02:27:18 AMSo is being able to recite the exact book definition the same thing as understanding the concept?
Is not?
You learn things by rote to get basic parts of ideas in your head so that when the more complex parts start popping up, you
have a basis for understanding them. It also gives you a center for concentration and focus when things get confusing.
I learned the multiplication tables by memorization (ugh, those 12's!), and when I do math in my head I still see my 5th grade teacher.
I can say the Acts of Contrition, two different versions of the Lord's Prayer, and the Hail Mary and I'm not even Catholic.
Quote from: Pylon on December 11, 2012, 02:27:18 AM
So is being able to recite the exact book definition the same thing as understanding the concept?
absolutely not.
I was on quiz bowl as a cadet. I was very good at recalling information in an instant and answering questions under duress.
Moderator: "Question: What are isobars?"
Me: (after buzzing in) "Isobars are lines on a weather map that connect areas of equal pressure."
That was, say, 1983? 1982?
Late 1990s, I've started skydiving and I want to know what the wind picture looks like. I see a weather map one day, looks a bit like a topographical map. I look at the lines. They're in "inches of mercury"... oh, crap, these are ISOBARS!
The quiz bowl question was drilled into me from flash cards. The practical application of what an isobar was came from having to actually use a pressure map.
There is a time and place for rote memorization work. A cadet's promotion review board is not the place. The promotion review board is supposed to be an evaluation of the cadet's performance over the previous promotion cycle, not a test of their performance in the boardroom. The boards decision should already be made up prior to the review, that way, you can direct your feedback towards the fact they are being promoted and what needs to happen, or what they need to do in order to get promoted.
I've given new cadets orientation books that have some memory work in them which serve as a foundation to help them. I'd ask them some of the questions during inspections (especially if it was something that they would have done differently if they had remembered it).
Encampment tends to have a bunch of memory work.
Either way, if I were you, I'd read the section in 52-16, look at the goals for promotion, and review the CAPF 50 to get a better handle on what a promotion review board is supposed to be.
Thank you all so much for the feedback! So... If I am understanding things correctly, asking those sort of memory work at a Promotion Board is completely unnecessary and out of regulations?
Also, CAPR 52-16(d)-3 states: "Commanders must apply local promotion board policies consistently, with all cadets being subject to the same process." Does that mean that adding in those memory work be in regulations?
Unless it is countered by reg. Iirc it is.
Quote from: MichaelC on December 11, 2012, 06:49:53 AM
Thank you all so much for the feedback! So... If I am understanding things correctly, asking those sort of memory work at a Promotion Board is completely unnecessary and out of regulations?
Also, CAPR 52-16(d)-3 states: "Commanders must apply local promotion board policies consistently, with all cadets being subject to the same process." Does that mean that adding in those memory work be in regulations?
Adding "Cadet Memory Work" questions to a promotion board is no more in the regulations than, say, specifying that the board will ask Aerospace questions. The reg suggests that all cadet be subject to the same process.
IOW, they're not saying "You asked Cadet Timmy 10 questions, but only asked Cadet Sally 3.." (well, OK, maybe..), but more "If you're going to require cadets to go thru promotion boards, then _ALL_ cadets must do it."
This avoids "Hey, how did Cadet Jimmy get promoted tonight? We were both bucking for Master Sergeant, and the only things he and I were missing for our promotion was the review board. I was told review boards weren't until next week. Oh, wait, his dad is the deputy commander for cadets, I get it.."
IMHO, requiring memory work at a promotion board is a little silly, because then it becomes more of a rote exercise and less of a legitimate review. You want rote answers to information? Thats what the test is for. A promotion review board should not be a "oral testing opportunity." The cadet has shown a knowledge of the subject matter for that achievement by passing the tests.
An promotion review board helps the commander ascertain the cadet's readiness to assume the next grade. That speaks more to their
application of the subject areas, etc. "Soft" things that aren't easily answered with "true/false" or "A, B, C or D" or "Sir, the ROIs for the training session are..."
As an 18 year military member, E-6B Flight Engineer instructor, and now a CAP member... In short, I agree that rote memorization isn't always practical or needed...
However, it does serve a purpose...
As an instructor, I evaluate other Flight Engineers within our command to be qualified for the position. In general, I want to know that the member understands and can apply the knowledge concepts when the time comes. However, one of the other duties that will fall upon them when they become qualified is training future members in those duties. This is where the memorization can be key.
Not everyone learns the same. What works for me may not work for you. However, having a common definition of a concept between us could give us a basis to learn from. Short of being able to modify our description of a concept in a way to be understood by others, we can always fall back to a common answer that will prove an understanding.
Basically, I feel while memorizing a definition may not help you with learning the concept, understanding the concept fully should lead to an easier memerorization of the definition.
Bottom line, whether you think rote memorization is a valid learning technique or not, testing memorized words must not be part of a promotion review board (outside of recitation of the cadet oath, because that and that alone is required by regulation). If you think rote memorization has its place, that's great -- just don't do it in the context of promotion review boards.
A) A CAPF 50 must serve as the basis for your evaluation in any cadet's promotion review board, by regulation.
B) The criteria on the CAPF 50 does not contain anything to be evaluated regarding memorized words.
Therefore, if you're really good at logic, you can probably draw the conclusion from those two points to answer the OP's question.
CAPR 52-16 5-2 d
Quoted. Promotion Boards.
Although not required, squadrons may hold promotion boards (sometimes called boards of review), to help the commander decide if cadets are ready to accept the increased responsibilities that come with their promotions. If used, promotion boards must meet the following criteria:
(1) A completed CAPF 50 must serve as the promotion board's basis for discussion.
(2) Promotion boards will not re-test cadets on material they already passed through achievement tests.
(3) Commanders must apply local promotion board policies consistently, with all cadets being subject to the same process.
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
Knowing this sort of info for a promo board, however, is pretty stupid. It's more of a tool to process info and absorb it. Using it as a basis to promote is asinine. Critical thinking is a little more important. Having a better base of knowledge would be more beneficial, such as "you're Flight Sergeant of your flight at encampment. One cadet is constantly late to formation. His element leader has talked to him about it yet the problem persists. What is your next course of action?"
Applied knowledge of the position/grade. That's what I'm getting at.
sorry....Rote Memorization does NOT open your mind to accepting new information.
AND rote memorization is only the first level of lowest level of cognitive learning.......other then a tool to keep people busy at basic training...it serves very little purpose.
The only rote memorization I use at PRBs is the Cadet Oath. Even with that, there is some leeway. If a cadet going for their first stripe gets a couple words out of order, we'll correct them and carry on. They usually have all the parts, but may not have the order straight. A cadet going to SSgt needs to have it down pat. And yes, I have told cadets they are not ready for the PRB if they can't give the Cadet Oath to the appropriate standard. The cadets have been told and our PRB OI says if the cadet fails the Cadet Oath, the PRB is over until next week.
We also require cadets to request a PRB through the chain of command with specifically delineated deadlines. No last minute PRBs. We do allow provisional scheduling - if cadet just needs the CPFT, they can schedule a PRB for that meeting with the understanding that if they do not pass the CPFT they do not get a PRB.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2012, 06:19:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
Knowing this sort of info for a promo board, however, is pretty stupid. It's more of a tool to process info and absorb it. Using it as a basis to promote is asinine. Critical thinking is a little more important. Having a better base of knowledge would be more beneficial, such as "you're Flight Sergeant of your flight at encampment. One cadet is constantly late to formation. His element leader has talked to him about it yet the problem persists. What is your next course of action?"
Applied knowledge of the position/grade. That's what I'm getting at.
sorry....Rote Memorization does NOT open your mind to accepting new information.
AND rote memorization is only the first level of lowest level of cognitive learning.......other then a tool to keep people busy at basic training...it serves very little purpose.
Rote Memorization doesn't work Pat? Better tell all of the flying training folks. Rote Memorization is very heavily used in aviation training.
Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2012, 07:54:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2012, 06:19:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
Knowing this sort of info for a promo board, however, is pretty stupid. It's more of a tool to process info and absorb it. Using it as a basis to promote is asinine. Critical thinking is a little more important. Having a better base of knowledge would be more beneficial, such as "you're Flight Sergeant of your flight at encampment. One cadet is constantly late to formation. His element leader has talked to him about it yet the problem persists. What is your next course of action?"
Applied knowledge of the position/grade. That's what I'm getting at.
sorry....Rote Memorization does NOT open your mind to accepting new information.
AND rote memorization is only the first level of lowest level of cognitive learning.......other then a tool to keep people busy at basic training...it serves very little purpose.
Rote Memorization doesn't work Pat? Better tell all of the flying training folks. Rote Memorization is very heavily used in aviation training.
Yes....but they back it up with all the theory and everything else.
I was talking in a CADET context. Memorising you bold face EP's is very important to aircrew......but they don't make you memorise the oath of enlistment or your chain of command from POTUS on down, or the definition of leadership.
At encampment.....okay some of those things are good....it gets you to focus on attention to detail and spend your "free time" memorizing trivia.....but that is it.
I think we have a hard enough program as it is with out adding more useless BS. Pedadogicly speaking rote memorization is the lowest form of teaching. It is good to a certain level....but does very little to bring UNDERSTANDING or open your mind to more information.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2012, 08:26:04 PM
Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2012, 07:54:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2012, 06:19:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
As a former cadet, 1981 to be exact, i can still remember the cadet oath and most of the 12 general orders of the guard. Rote memorization opens your mind up to accepting new info. Whether or not you retain said info 30 odd years down the road is moot. Someone asks you a question and right away you either know the answer or you don't. There is no umm or err.
Knowing this sort of info for a promo board, however, is pretty stupid. It's more of a tool to process info and absorb it. Using it as a basis to promote is asinine. Critical thinking is a little more important. Having a better base of knowledge would be more beneficial, such as "you're Flight Sergeant of your flight at encampment. One cadet is constantly late to formation. His element leader has talked to him about it yet the problem persists. What is your next course of action?"
Applied knowledge of the position/grade. That's what I'm getting at.
sorry....Rote Memorization does NOT open your mind to accepting new information.
AND rote memorization is only the first level of lowest level of cognitive learning.......other then a tool to keep people busy at basic training...it serves very little purpose.
Rote Memorization doesn't work Pat? Better tell all of the flying training folks. Rote Memorization is very heavily used in aviation training.
Yes....but they back it up with all the theory and everything else.
I was talking in a CADET context. Memorising you bold face EP's is very important to aircrew......but they don't make you memorise the oath of enlistment or your chain of command from POTUS on down, or the definition of leadership.
At encampment.....okay some of those things are good....it gets you to focus on attention to detail and spend your "free time" memorizing trivia.....but that is it.
I think we have a hard enough program as it is with out adding more useless BS. Pedadogicly speaking rote memorization is the lowest form of teaching. It is good to a certain level....but does very little to bring UNDERSTANDING or open your mind to more information.
You're missing the point Pat. ::) I learned how to memorize stuff by memorizing my memory work when I was a 13 year old cadet at Encampment who had the attention span of a Newt!
Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2012, 11:49:05 PM
a 13 year old cadet at Encampment who had the attention span of a Newt!
(http://themuseinwoodenshoes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/1121933581sir-bedevere.jpg)
A newt?
Quote from: NIN on December 12, 2012, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2012, 11:49:05 PM
a 13 year old cadet at Encampment who had the attention span of a Newt!
(http://themuseinwoodenshoes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/1121933581sir-bedevere.jpg)
A newt?
Dangit! Beat me to it! But I'm getting better. I feel happy! I feel happy! *BONK*
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2012, 04:47:20 AM
Dangit! Beat me to it! But I'm getting better. I feel happy! I feel happy! *BONK*
You gotta get up pretty early to beat me on some of these...
Garibaldi, Nin is a world class movie geek..... Don't bother trying to beat him, you won't! >:D
As a former cadet officer in CAP and Army JROTC, I took the cadet oaths very seriously. My last year as a cadet was about 10 years ago and I have never served in the military; yet I could recite the oath and teach D & C right now if I had to just from memory. Drill and Ceremony teaches discipline and bearing. In the real world these are critical traits. I learned the AF definition of leadership in 1996 as a C/B and still recite and USE it to this day. In fact it is one of the sayings hanging in my office. The use of memorization is critical later in life. As a Paramedic it was ungodly the things we had to memorize; however, lives depended on it. If you do not take it seriously now and use it to set precedence for it, it is harder to relearn life's lessons later on. The use of memorization can also help cadets do better in school and improve their academics. Athletes, lawyers, etc. all require memorization of certain skills and capabilities. The CAP values are essential to good moral behavior. Why not show its importance now while there is a chance to make an impact on the cadet's life?
So ... how's the cow?
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on December 15, 2012, 03:53:34 AM
So ... how's the cow?
Jack
She walks, she talks, she's full of chalk. the lacteal fluid extracted from the female of the species is highly prolific to the nth degree
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 15, 2012, 06:25:48 AM
She walks, she talks, she's full of chalk. the lacteal fluid extracted from the female of the species is highly prolific to the nth degree
And that's the how of the cow, sir! (How can I not forget... ;D )
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
si þin nama gehalgod
tobecume þin rice
gewurþe þin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice.
Rote memorization is also used in poetic / literary appreciations like this example, which I conquered in twelfth grade.
If something is to be memorized, it ought to be meaningful and possess timeless value. "how's the cow" or whatever is silly stuff, as was the twelve general orders back in the day, for cadets, in my opinion.
Silly or not, you have to see from some comments...it worked. Cadets developed memorization. Dare I ask for the time?
19:48 MST
Quote from: SamFranklin on December 31, 2012, 03:16:27 AM
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
si þin nama gehalgod
tobecume þin rice
gewurþe þin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice.
That's easy for
you to say!
Jack
Quote from: Jaison009 on December 15, 2012, 02:04:24 AM
As a former cadet officer in CAP and Army JROTC, I took the cadet oaths very seriously. My last year as a cadet was about 10 years ago and I have never served in the military; yet I could recite the oath and teach D & C right now if I had to just from memory. Drill and Ceremony teaches discipline and bearing. In the real world these are critical traits. I learned the AF definition of leadership in 1996 as a C/B and still recite and USE it to this day. In fact it is one of the sayings hanging in my office. The use of memorization is critical later in life. As a Paramedic it was ungodly the things we had to memorize; however, lives depended on it. If you do not take it seriously now and use it to set precedence for it, it is harder to relearn life's lessons later on. The use of memorization can also help cadets do better in school and improve their academics. Athletes, lawyers, etc. all require memorization of certain skills and capabilities. The CAP values are essential to good moral behavior. Why not show its importance now while there is a chance to make an impact on the cadet's life?
So true! It is hopeful that the things we ask cadets to memorize helps them the moment they need it. Also, it develops brain power!
If run correctly, the program sells its self. (Sadly, we have a high turnover of cadets because we bore cadets to death!)
Next week, let's talk about...activities!😝
Dave
Helping cadets memorize now will be important later. In college almost everything is pure memorization and you can see the difference in people who had to memorize large amounts of information in lower levels of learning and those that did not.
Because of the memorization drills I had in elementary, high school, and CAP, I was able to memorize large amounts of material across several classes in college. I still remember that there were about 50 bacteria, 50 viruses, 20 worms and flukes, and all the life cycles of some in just one microbiology class. Then memorizing all 207 bones and major points of interest on, in, or around them, all the organs, all the layers of skin, all the muscles.
The skills they learn now will help in the future.