CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: JeffDG on October 26, 2012, 08:35:40 PM

Title: OpenAirplane
Post by: JeffDG on October 26, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
Anybody else see this in today's AOPA eBrief:

http://www.avweb.com/news/features/openairplane_rent_aircraft_insurance_pilot_flying_207575-1.html (http://www.avweb.com/news/features/openairplane_rent_aircraft_insurance_pilot_flying_207575-1.html)

Basically a network of aircraft rentals that will be accessible with a single checkout in type, or periodic.

Here's the good part...the guy setting it up was inspired by CAP, and CAPF5s will be a "checkout" for this!
QuoteOpenAirplane hopes to be online by year-end, and will come to market with a ready group of pre-qualified pilots. Because its check system is based on CAP's, any CAP pilot with a current Form 5 checkride is automatically grandfathered in, pending application and verification. And aside from small independent operators, Rakic says Cessna is now on board, encouraging its Cessna Pilot Centers to join the OpenAirplane network. As more qualified pilots find easier access to aircraft and more operators find a broader base of qualified safe pilots, Rakic expects more of both will sign on. If that happens, out of network operators and pilots could start to feel the negative effects of not opting in. And that would be the tipping point that leads to OpenAirplane's market dominance.

I think it'll be great.  If I visit another city on work, I could go find a centre in this network, grab a 182 based on my CAPF5 that I already do every year, and go see the sights by air!
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Critical AOA on October 26, 2012, 09:16:40 PM
I have been keeping an eye on this for quite a while now and hope that it works out as it will benefit both pilots and the FBO.  To be honest I am surprised that Cessna Pilot Centers had not latched onto this concept a long time ago. 

There have been several times where I either drove or flew commercial to another city where I spent several days to several weeks. I would have loved to have been able to go out to the local airport and rent a plane for a couple of hours without having to go through the hassle and expense of flying with one of their instructors for an hour. So I chose not to do it.  I lost out on the chance to see the local area from the air and the FBO lost out on the extra revenue.

As long as one is a licensed pilot, has a current flight review & medical and has been checked out in the aircraft type somewhere, there is no real reason this should not work.  The risks to the operator and its insurance company are extremely low. 

Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Eclipse on October 26, 2012, 11:31:58 PM
One of the founders is Midway6 of the now dormant CAPBlog.  He's been previewing it for about a year or so, and Google should be able to pop up several public presentations on the plans.

Seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on October 27, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
The basic idea while good has been tried before - several times from the 1960's to just a few years ago, and has not survived yet.  It will be nice if it happens, but I am not going to place much hope or faith in the idea. 
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: a2capt on October 27, 2012, 04:04:53 PM
Part of the problem is various clubs like the dues brought to them each month, and because of the non-profit status many of them operate under, they can't take money from non-members past a certain percent of the overall incoming amount.

Then you come around the other way and the FBO or flight school operation is really interested in having their people in those planes too, and with their 3-6 hour daily minimum if the aircraft is taken over night, you can tell they really don't want them being flown by renters.

This kind of open cooperative works well with fractional ownership of all the same type, of a more "advanced" aircraft, like the SR-22 where those who operate it are likely to be more affluent and less concerned about money issues.

I applaud the checkout requirements, I actually wanted to have the CAPF5 as the basis for a club checkout, but finding instructors that had the patience wasn't easy, and kickback from other owners and board members saying it would make club admission too difficult for people.

Really? Whatever. Since I left the flying club after 10 years of being a board member, they've totalled 4 airplanes. About the rate of 1 a year. We had 2 in 10 years. They got what they wanted.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Eclipse on October 27, 2012, 09:41:41 PM
Just to be clear, this isn't a "would be nice", it's already and "is", it's just a matter of scale now and when it reaches a critical mass for open enrollment vs. private invite.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Critical AOA on October 27, 2012, 09:55:45 PM
The Form 5 references baffle me a little.  Is it the belief of some that the Form 5 is more difficult or a better checkout than the checkout at your average FBO?  I found my Form 5 to be midrange at best.  I have had easier checkouts than my Form 5 but I also had more difficult ones.  Do not get me wrong, I believe that having a standardized checkout for a program such as OpenAirplane is a must but I could see it being more stringent than a Form 5. 
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: JeffDG on October 28, 2012, 01:52:00 AM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 27, 2012, 09:55:45 PM
The Form 5 references baffle me a little.  Is it the belief of some that the Form 5 is more difficult or a better checkout than the checkout at your average FBO?  I found my Form 5 to be midrange at best.  I have had easier checkouts than my Form 5 but I also had more difficult ones.  Do not get me wrong, I believe that having a standardized checkout for a program such as OpenAirplane is a must but I could see it being more stringent than a Form 5.
It is a decent, and standardized, checkout.

What you say about FBO checkouts is, of course, correct.  Some are more stringent, others less so.  But picking a standard and using that is a good first step, something upon which to build.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: NIN on October 28, 2012, 12:44:49 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 27, 2012, 09:55:45 PM
The Form 5 references baffle me a little.  Is it the belief of some that the Form 5 is more difficult or a better checkout than the checkout at your average FBO?  I found my Form 5 to be midrange at best.  I have had easier checkouts than my Form 5 but I also had more difficult ones.  Do not get me wrong, I believe that having a standardized checkout for a program such as OpenAirplane is a must but I could see it being more stringent than a Form 5.

Well, I also think advertising that it is based on the CAP checkout will turn some pilots off just from the mere mention of CAP.   There are probably checkout items in the Form 5 that are unrelated to normal day-to-day GA ops, and if they're not needed to ensure safety of the pilot & plane, why have them there?

The other thing is that different check pilots treat the checkouts differently.  This is true at FBOs & clubs when you get checked out to fly their bugsmashers, too.  One check pilot will be like "OK, you correctly identified the airplane by its tail number and confirmed all the big pieces are still attached.  Preflight? Completed! Next item..." while another will be like "You know, when you inspect the horizontal control surface trim tab attach points for excessive play, you did not take the time to observe that the cotter pins were oriented fore-and-aft. Its not in the book, but its a great habit to get in. Lets talk about what constitutes a clean versus dirty position light lens.."

No kidding, we ran an o-flight day once and I sent three plane loads of cadets out to the ramp with pilots for "Flight #1s".  Two planes did their preflights, loaded up, cranked and split. The third plane was still there 30 minutes later when I looked outside. I walked down to the plane and the pilot, one of the wing's check pilots, was just about 3/4 of the way done with the preflight.  He was basically doing what amounted to the full-up "PPL preflight lesson" for these cadets.   I had to say "Look, you need to go.  The flight one syllabus talks about a preflight, not an Annual Inspection.  Load up and get the hell out of here!"  I've done plenty of preflights in my life, and this was excessive for a flight #1. 

Come to find out, taking a Form 5 with this guy entailed nearly a half day of circling around the airplane while he lectured the new pilot on various intricacies minutiae things that a pilot didn't necessarily need to know to fly a plane safely.  When you finally got in the plane to fly, too, it got _worse_.    I had pilots come back and tell me that any checkride they ever took with the FAA took half the time and was not nearly as thorough painful as the one they took with this guy.   And I'm not talking 105 hr private pilots with no advanced ratings, I'm talking multi-thousand hour commercial pilots and CFIs.

So when you talk about a "standardized checkout" it really need to be a "standardized checkout" both from the fact that it covers mountain stuff even though you're in Florida, and that the guy in Bend, Oregon isn't giving the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition while the guy in Greensboro, NC say "Well, you can identify a C-172 three out of four times from 100 ft away. You're good."

Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: isuhawkeye on July 30, 2013, 11:00:34 PM
Open Airplane announced today that they have added 8 new FBO's to their network. 
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Eclipse on July 30, 2013, 11:57:09 PM
Quote from: NIN on October 28, 2012, 12:44:49 PMCome to find out, taking a Form 5 with this guy entailed nearly a half day of circling around the airplane while he lectured the new pilot on various intricacies minutiae things that a pilot didn't necessarily need to know to fly a plane safely.  When you finally got in the plane to fly, too, it got _worse_.    I had pilots come back and tell me that any checkride they ever took with the FAA took half the time and was not nearly as thorough painful as the one they took with this guy.   And I'm not talking 105 hr private pilots with no advanced ratings, I'm talking multi-thousand hour commercial pilots and CFIs.

We had a couple of those.

They are now referred to as "ex check pilots".
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: SunDog on July 31, 2013, 03:53:30 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2012, 09:41:41 PM
Just to be clear, this isn't a "would be nice", it's already and "is", it's just a matter of scale now and when it reaches a critical mass for open enrollment vs. private invite.
I wonder if it'll eat into CAP hours?  One major, positive, excellent aspect of CAP flying is funded missions, and fairly cheap C17/B12 flying. I'm also a military aero club member, and the price is pretty close to C17 rates now. I've noticed my ratio of hours has been trending more to the club, less to CAP. The CAP hassle factor is tolerable on funded missions, but not so much on C17/B12. Cost is a driver for me - also looking at another club, civilian, with rates competetive with CAP and military club, minus the hassles. This could be interesting to watch develop. Understand a CAP form 5 is good in all Wings, in theory, but a snowbird I know says the FL Wing won't  "honor" his CAP currency from another state when he's down there, so he cut a deal with a local FBO.

It would be great to have the option to fly when traveling - it would be weird if this endeavour honored our Form 5 when the local Wing wouldn't.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Eclipse on July 31, 2013, 04:03:19 AM
I doubt it (cut into hours), in most cases if you're looking to use this service you're not in a CAP frame of mind, going cross country, flying family, etc.

With that said, your friend should rattle the cage.  An F5 is an F5.

For the record, funded flying doesn't have to be a hassle - my wing has a program that can turn around funded sortie requests in real time when
opportunity presents, same day in most other cases.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Critical AOA on July 31, 2013, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 31, 2013, 04:03:19 AM
I doubt it (cut into hours), in most cases if you're looking to use this service you're not in a CAP frame of mind, going cross country, flying family, etc.


I agree with the first part as I don't think it would cut into CAP flying hours at least not by any appreciable amount. 

However, I disagree with the second half.  Why would someone looking to be able to fly at a FBO when in a new locale on vacation or business without doing a local checkout not be in a CAP frame of mind?  Most CAP pilots also do recreational flying, fly with family and do $100 hamburger runs, etc.  Many own their own aircraft, many of us are renters or in flying clubs. This service is just a way to do that when away from your normal area of ops without spending a bunch of extra money proving yourself all over again.  I'd be surprised if the percentage of pilots whose only GA flying is with CAP is more than a couple of percentage points. 
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: SunDog on August 01, 2013, 04:38:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 31, 2013, 04:03:19 AM
I doubt it (cut into hours), in most cases if you're looking to use this service you're not in a CAP frame of mind, going cross country, flying family, etc.

With that said, your friend should rattle the cage.  An F5 is an F5.

For the record, funded flying doesn't have to be a hassle - my wing has a program that can turn around funded sortie requests in real time when
opportunity presents, same day in most other cases.

Wow. That's great! Takes multiple phone and eamails for us, plus the WMIRS goat rope. If I'm paying, CAP isn't my first choice. I think the snowbird eventually prevailed each year, but he just got tired of jumping through the hoops, explaing the rules, etc.

I can hack the hassles funded, considering the mission and the great deal of free flying. But as the CAP vs Club price points converge, it's worth the 5 or 10 bucks an hour extra to just schedule and go fly. And I can wear shorts on hot days!
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Eclipse on August 01, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 31, 2013, 10:28:10 PMWhy would someone looking to be able to fly at a FBO when in a new locale on vacation or business without doing a local checkout not be in a CAP frame of mind?

What I meant was that members don't fly to other wings just to fly CAP airplanes there, certainly not in appreciable numbers, for the reasons mentioned
above.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: Critical AOA on August 01, 2013, 10:54:58 PM
ah, I see now.  I misread or misunderstood or something like that.
Title: Re: OpenAirplane
Post by: isuhawkeye on August 09, 2013, 07:13:11 PM
If this program catches on I could see it being a major member benefit.  If your regular form 5 counts as the ticket to access the OpenAirplan network then you can take something required for CAP and use it for fun while on vacation, when traveling, or at your home drome.  Since Open Airplane wont have local afiliates for most pilots for some time some may gravitate towards CAP to get their form 5.