Sadly as an Army veteran the first thing i noticed in that picture was the improperly executed salute of the Army 3 star general.... ::) 8)
Yes, that is sad...
His fingertips seem to be searching for his Service Cap. ::)
Ah, but which of us would be the first to go up to a 3-star and tell him he's saluting incorrectly?
Hint: not me.
Jack
Seriously, though, since when have we seen an officer above major or LTC salute properly? I've seen lots of salutes rendered properly by soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, which were returned sloppily by the officers.
Quote from: ColonelJack on October 14, 2012, 11:18:33 AM
Ah, but which of us would be the first to go up to a 3-star and tell him he's saluting incorrectly?
Hint: not me.
Jack
Nor I.
Quote from: Garibaldi on October 14, 2012, 08:08:04 PM
Seriously, though, since when have we seen an officer above major or LTC salute properly?
It doesn't even have to be brass up that high on the ladder. When I was a newly-minted CAP 2nd Lt (berry boards and all; yech!) I was walking into a base Burger King and an AFRES 1st Lt in flight suit and Tom Cruise-style shades was walking out. I snapped him my best, crispest salute and said "good afternoon, Sir." He looked at me like "huh?" and barely touched his flight cap with his fingertips.
The clue there is that a 3 star should really salute better and a Lt.
I've found most officers are busy thinking about other things and not about saluting. I had a LTC return a salute before I could offer it. I was a PFC.
I would have no problem telling the 3 star his salute sucks.
Of course I'm retired already so it's not like he can ship me off to Shemya or something... ;)
Quote from: ol'fido on October 14, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Typical CT. We start out a thread to honor a fallen, shall I say hero of the old Army, and end up nitpicking some random picture because of the way someone in it is saluting. Get some perspective, folks. >:(
If any of you have the DVD of "We Were Soldiers", check out the deleted scene that centers around CSM Plummley's fearsome reputation. It was apocryphal I'm sure, but I still liked it.
Taps, Sergeant Major. We are here because of men like you.
Exactly what I was thinking as I read through the thread.
That is why I said "sad" on the 13th!
Feel free to continue your pointless nitpicking here. ::)
Quote from: ColonelJack on October 14, 2012, 11:18:33 AM
Ah, but which of us would be the first to go up to a 3-star and tell him he's saluting incorrectly?
Hint: not me.
Jack
So....the story goes......a recently retired Navy Veterain gets a job a Walmart.
He is constantly 10 minutes late to work.
He does a great job at work....but he just can't seem to able to be where he needs to be on time.
Finally his supervisors takes him to the side.....and says...."Jim, when you worked for Navy and walked into your office 10 minutes late what did they say to you?"
Jim replies "Good morning Admiral, would you like your coffee?"
:)
Nice.
Hey shouldnt this topic which is about C&C and not uniforms, actually be under 'The Lobby' since this section is about Uniforms, awards and decorations?
OK what did I miss?? Im not seeing any picture.
Edit: Oh..... got it. The funeral photo.....
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 16, 2012, 09:56:53 PM
OK what did I miss?? Im not seeing any picture.
Edit: Oh..... got it. The funeral photo.....
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
end of rant.....
Quote from: CyBorg on October 14, 2012, 08:17:45 PM
It doesn't even have to be brass up that high on the ladder. When I was a newly-minted CAP 2nd Lt (berry boards and all; yech!) I was walking into a base Burger King and an AFRES 1st Lt in flight suit and Tom Cruise-style shades was walking out. I snapped him my best, crispest salute and said "good afternoon, Sir." He looked at me like "huh?" and barely touched his flight cap with his fingertips.
Probably because you were a 2d Lt saluting a 1st Lt and calling him 'Sir.' Like it or not, frequently in the operations world, 2d Lts don't salute 1st Lts, and don't call them 'Sir.' Some of the traditionalists sometimes try to argue they should or have to, and occasionally try to enforce it. They are perfectly right to do so. However, the culture has just become fairly pervasive in the USAF that it isn't done.
The reasoning behind this (like it or not) that is usually given is that in operations that 2d Lt may in fact have more experience than the 1st Lt. Especially in missiles, if someone goes on casual status for 8-9 months prior to pilot training, then is in pilot training for 8-9 months, then is in casual status prior to missile training for 3-5 months, then is in missile training for 3-4 months, they could have just graduated Initial Qualification Training and be a newly minted 1st Lt.
Meanwhile, a 2d Lt could have gotten to Missile Training, been on casual for 3 months, completed training, and gotten to the operational unit and be pulling alerts. That 1st Lt has been in longer, but has less operational 'value' to the USAF. Culturally, this is why we tend to not worry so much about the 'Congratulations you didn't rape, murder, or get a DUI for 2 years...and have a pulse' promotion to 1st Lt and focus more on what you've actually done operationally.
(As an aside for aspiring officers...if you get a pilot slot or nav slot work your freaking tail off to graduate. There were a number of folks who did not have great OPRs and such because they didn't even finish training for 18+ months and so when it came time for captain, they weren't selected. The USAF has also taken to kicking people out who don't complete initial qualification training because it saves them money, and is a really easy cut to make.)
So to that 1st Lt, your snappy salute, combined with the berry boards, was probably strange to him. He probably was saluting because he got one, but confused as to why a 2d Lt was saluting him and calling him 'Sir.' You weren't 'wrong' but you were culturally abnormal.
YMMV, Your experiences may differ, this is primarily taken from my own limited experiences and discussions over the last 5 years. 'The Good Old Days' may differ.
Quote from: Pylon on October 16, 2012, 02:08:23 PM
Feel free to continue your pointless nitpicking here. ::)
Yep, they did.
Quote from: cap235629 on October 16, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
While I won't quite go so far as to say "If you haven't raised your right hand.."
I will say that CAP folks who haven't served a day in the military lecturing others about saluting is like having a nun teach sex ed....
Just saying.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: cap235629 on October 16, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
end of rant.....
First off if this isn't directed at me then ignore the rest of this, if it is probably ought to know who you are adressing before you try to 'call out' someone. For your info i did my 4 years as a 12B in the Army even being shot at a time or two in the former Yugoslavia.
Secondly I would challenge you to 'convincingly argue' that a beret has a brim/bill/visor. Heck even the current Army Drill and Ceremony Manual (FM 3-21.5) in figure 4-5 shows a soldier in a beret saluting and touching the eyebrow not the beret.
Third, as far as nitpicking a 3 star general when it comes to something as simple as a salute i will quote armystudyguide.com -
" The way you salute says a lot about you as a soldier. A proud, smart salute shows pride in yourself and your unit and that you are confident in your abilities as a soldier. A sloppy salute might mean that you're ashamed of your unit, lack confidence, or at the very least, that you haven't learned how to salute correctly."
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on October 17, 2012, 02:34:42 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on October 16, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
end of rant.....
First off if this isn't directed at me then ignore the rest of this, if it is probably ought to know who you are adressing before you try to 'call out' someone. For your info i did my 4 years as a 12B in the Army even being shot at a time or two in the former Yugoslavia.
Secondly I would challenge you to 'convincingly argue' that a beret has a brim/bill/visor. Heck even the current Army Drill and Ceremony Manual (FM 3-21.5) in figure 4-5 shows a soldier in a beret saluting and touching the eyebrow not the beret.
Third, as far as nitpicking a 3 star general when it comes to something as simple as a salute i will quote armystudyguide.com -
" The way you salute says a lot about you as a soldier. A proud, smart salute shows pride in yourself and your unit and that you are confident in your abilities as a soldier. A sloppy salute might mean that you're ashamed of your unit, lack confidence, or at the very least, that you haven't learned how to salute correctly."
I wasn't referring to you
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on October 17, 2012, 01:42:09 AM
Probably because you were a 2d Lt saluting a 1st Lt and calling him 'Sir.' Like it or not, frequently in the operations world, 2d Lts don't salute 1st Lts, and don't call them 'Sir.'
I was only doing what I was taught.
And I sure didn't mean to open the can of worms by posting the picture of the top brass saluting.
Quote from: cap235629 on October 16, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 16, 2012, 09:56:53 PM
OK what did I miss?? Im not seeing any picture.
Edit: Oh..... got it. The funeral photo.....
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
end of rant.....
Okay, my turn. I have 31 years, 4 months of service in the United States Air Force, both active duty and reserve, so I think I'm qualified to express my opinion on this.
The General's salute sucks, period. If an E4 saluted like that their First Sergeant would be on them like white on chalk.
But what do I know, I just served my country for more then half my life...
rant done...
Quote from: CyBorg on October 17, 2012, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on October 17, 2012, 01:42:09 AM
Probably because you were a 2d Lt saluting a 1st Lt and calling him 'Sir.' Like it or not, frequently in the operations world, 2d Lts don't salute 1st Lts, and don't call them 'Sir.'
I was only doing what I was taught.
And I sure didn't mean to open the can of worms by posting the picture of the top brass saluting.
You didn't. Fact is, many top brass have either forgotten how to utilize proper C&C or just can't be bothered. I said many, not most, or even all. BMT was years behind them by the time this picture was taken. We just took it a step too far by hijacking the well-intended thread and nitpicked it to hell and gone.
Quote from: PHall on October 17, 2012, 03:40:16 AM
The General's salute sucks, period. If an E4 saluted like that their First Sergeant would be on them like white on chalk.
But instead, the CSM/CMSgt's salute is equally crappy.
All of the salutes look just fine to me. I'd be proud to serve next to any one of those fine squared away looking individuals.
Take a deep breath and get some perspective.
Quote from: cap235629 on October 16, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
You missed a lot of people who have nothing better to do than nitpick an ACTIVELY SERVING LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY's salute. FYI Army C&C calls for the salute to touch the brim of the headgear worn or the eyebrow if not wearing headgear. It could be convincingly argued that the GENERAL is doing just that. Also, if the only salute experience you have is with CAP, SHUT UP you have no nickel in that quarter. Until you have raised your right hand and taken the oath, keep your opinion on the matter to yourself.....
end of rant.....
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Unfortunately some in CAP think they are the military and that going to a meeting a couple of times a month and putting on a uniform somehow qualifies them. Also even if you have served in the military, there is still little room or justification to nitpick an Army General who has given his entire life to protecting this country. I am so much more impressed by this general even if his salute might be a bit sloppy to some than I am with a CAP member who salutes perfectly.
Not to add any fuel to any fire but I feel that everyone may be jumping to conclusions. Does anyone here personally know the specified Lt. Gen? Could he possibly have an injury to his right side preventing him from rendering a text book salute? Sen. John McCain is unable to render the text book salute due to his injuries sustained as a POW. Or maybe he has a chronic shoulder injury that is currently being treated (rotator cuff tear/injury)?
Maybe he was a little slow bringing his arm up when the picture was taken and milliseconds after it was taken the salute was in the proper text book position? It is true that a photo speaks a thousand words but it only represents the moment it was taken. It also doesn't show what may have occurred before or after it was taken.
Thus far, only assumptions have been made as to the nature of his salute in the photo and assuming anything make an, ........well I think everyone can finish that little nugget of truth on their own.
Quote from: bflynn on October 17, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
All of the salutes look just fine to me. I'd be proud to serve next to any one of those fine squared away looking individuals.
Take a deep breath and get some perspective.
+1
I had to go back and look at the picture seveal times to figue out what the heck you guys were talking about.
This whole thread seems tacky, unseemly and a little disrespectful given the circumstances that spawned it.
Ya think?
Quote from: ol'fido on October 17, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Ya think?
I try not to. It makes my head hurt too much after work.
I do think its ironic that people who think the thread is tacky and disrespectful keep adding to its reply count.... :o ::)
Not knowing exactly the point when it was taken, has anybody considered that the pic was probably taken as he was bringing his hand up to salute? I notice the Air Force officer's salute is a little off as well (his index finger looks like it is touching his brow as if he was shielding his eyes from the sun).