CAP Talk

Okay, while this will basically be as unscientific as any other poll on CAP Talk, lets give it a shot. 

At least in my wing most seniors are going to be wearing the golf shirt uniform at squadron meetings.  Other uniforms may come out of the closet for flying, ES activities, wing level events, etc. but lets leave them aside for the moment.

I know that some cadet and composite units have "formal" nights where the service dress or equivalent are supposed to be worn, but lets also leave them aside for the purpose of this poll.

So, if a visitor walked into your squadron on a normal meeting night, what uniform would the majority of senior members be wearing?

Quote from: RiverAux on October 01, 2012, 03:39:09 AM
Okay, while this will basically be as unscientific as any other poll on CAP Talk, lets give it a shot. 

At least in my wing most seniors are going to be wearing the golf shirt uniform at squadron meetings.  Other uniforms may come out of the closet for flying, ES activities, wing level events, etc. but lets leave them aside for the moment.

I know that some cadet and composite units have "formal" nights where the service dress or equivalent are supposed to be worn, but lets also leave them aside for the purpose of this poll.

So, if a visitor walked into your squadron on a normal meeting night, what uniform would the majority of senior members be wearing?

At the risk of repeating what I said in a related post, I wear my BDUs to every meeting where the Blues are contraindicated. I'm the ES officer and I feel that this is my duty uniform. I also don't like the "feel" of the golf shirt. I bought one, wore it three times, and I'm resisting wearing it ever again unless forced. Most of the seniors wear the golf shirt to every meeting for whatever reason. I just grew up with wearing the AF style uniform and probably won't stop unless age or health stops me.

My squadron?

Squadron CC: usually the AF blue uniform, occasionally the grey/whites.

Others tend to use the grey/whites, mostly because of grooming, H/W issues, but those who can usually wear the AF blues.

The only time I really see the golf shirt is in the summer when it's stinkin' hot, and even then it's not universal.  I don't own one.

I usually wear (dependent on weather) BBDU's/blue flight suit.  When something a little more dressy is required, it's usually AF short-sleeved blues.  I have a set of G/W that I wear when my blue uniform needs a trip to the drycleaners.

If a visitor walked into our unit, it would depend on which room they walked into. If you walk into the side where the seniors (mostly air crew discussions) are meeting, then it's mostly polo.

If you walked into the side where the cadets and senior members working with the cadets are meeting, it's a mix of bdus/ blue bdus/whites and blues.

It is not written anywhere, and there is no order or requirement, it "just happens" that virtually all the senior members that are working with the cadets (and not in the other side of the wall) aren't wearing polo's when working with the cadet side of the house.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but tends to be more rare for the senior members on the cadet side of the house at our unit. 

Well, in my squadron, almost everyone wears the CAP Corporates with the exception of the squadron commander. Also, one of the SMs wears G/Ws, then BDUs with no explanation. We have a new senior member coming in who's AD Air Force, so I can imagine that he'll be wearing Air Force style(Boy, will the BDUs be a shock!).

So, out of 11 seniors, only 2 of them are full time Air Force uniform.

we 100% senior members wear golf shirts when the cadets are in BDU's and wear aviator shirt combo when the cadets are in blues.

composite squadron with active CP, senior side, airplane/aircrew, and ground team

Quote from: Levilockling on October 01, 2012, 04:58:28 AM
Well, in my squadron, almost everyone wears the CAP Corporates with the exception of the squadron commander. Also, one of the SMs wears G/Ws, then BDUs with no explanation. We have a new senior member coming in who's AD Air Force, so I can imagine that he'll be wearing Air Force style(Boy, will the BDUs be a shock!).

So, out of 11 seniors, only 2 of them are full time Air Force uniform.

When you say "CAP corporates" do you mean "golf shirt" or a combination of other "corporate" uniforms (eg gray white, blue bdu etc)

I'm in a Cadet Squadron. The senior members who meet the weight and grooming standards usually wear the same uniform the cadets are wearing.
(BDU's weeks 1 & 2, PT uniform week 3 and blues for week 4)
The folks who don't meet the standards usually wear the golf shirt combo the first three weeks and the gray and white aviator shirt combo the fourth week.
Seems to work for us...

Quote from: spacecommand on October 01, 2012, 05:04:24 AM

Quote from: Levilockling on October 01, 2012, 04:58:28 AM
Well, in my squadron, almost everyone wears the CAP Corporates with the exception of the squadron commander. Also, one of the SMs wears G/Ws, then BDUs with no explanation. We have a new senior member coming in who's AD Air Force, so I can imagine that he'll be wearing Air Force style(Boy, will the BDUs be a shock!).

So, out of 11 seniors, only 2 of them are full time Air Force uniform.

When you say "CAP corporates" do you mean "golf shirt" or a combination of other "corporate" uniforms (eg gray white, blue bdu etc)

I mean both. Really, at our squadron, the difference between the golf shirt or G/W and BBDU is non-existant.

It's BDU night, and you're in the golf shirt while the SM over there is in BBDUs? Cool story.
It's fancy night, and you're in golf shirt while the SM over there is in the Aviator combo? Cool story.

However, I just remembered that we have a SM who wears the golf shirt exclusively. I don't think I've ever seen her in anything else.

My squadron is a composite squadron and uniform wear is different on the two sides of the house.  The seniors and cadets meet seperately due to space issues (154 members).  The senior side is heavy on the polo shirt uniform.  Probably 99% of the time.  In fact the only time I've seen any other uniform on the senior side is visitors from other squadrons, or seniors who are working with cadets that night.

Our cadet program wears BDU's most nights, with occasional blues nights.  The cadet programs seniors match the cadet attire for the meeting.

Our senior members wear other uniforms as needed outside of meetings.  Dress for the day. 

There wasn't any option for half and half.

On a given night, we'll have between 15-20 senior members present.
8-10 in golf shirt
2-3 in g/w
And about 4-5 in AF style

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/338453_209219445798534_5877971_o.jpg)

I am a firm believer that CAP members should be able to wear the authorised uniform of their choice, as long as the following conditions apply:

It is worn correctly
Clean and in good repair
Fits operational requirements; i.e., mess dress is not so good for ground team and BDU's are not so good for a National Conference

I believe even more that a CAP member must not be shamed for his/her choice of uniform.

And, yes, that includes the blazer that I personally think looks out-of-place in CAP.

I remember showing up at my first meeting of a flying club senior squadron in the short-sleeved blues and being the only one in that order of dress, not to mention one of the only ones actually wearing an authorised uniform (there were a few golf shirts with various trousers, green flight suits with no insignia except nameplate, etc.).  I was even asked "why do you bother to wear that when it's easier just to wear a golf shirt?"

The squadron commander was a good egg (things went down after he transferred) but even he had a similar attitude...he would only wear the G/W as a "basic" uniform.  I saw him wear the AF blue short-sleeved rig one time for some sort of meeting with the LO (I think) and he even told the squadron, "Don't get the idea that I wear this often.  This is an Air Force uniform and I'm not in the Air Force."

Another of my colleagues told me "We shouldn't even be wearing the Air Force uniform.  We have our own."

I was in full compliance with 39-1, but stuck out like a sore thumb when I didn't need to.  I was not going to give up wearing a uniform I was proud of.

As well, someone who chooses to wear one of the CAP alternative (I hate that term "distinctive" because of the way it's been abused in CAP) uniforms must not get similar treatment from members of a unit that choose to wear the AF uniform.

There are usually two or three of us around at cadet meetings, and it's either all of us wearing AF uniforms, or one in Polo. On senior meetings about fifty percent are in AF and corporates, a few are in Polo.
But most of our senior membership is over 60.

We are an Composite Squadron, I wear my G/W at the First Meeting, Civies Second Meeting, BDUs third and fourth meeting.

Second meeting is cadet PT night. So, the majority of of unit is in PT gear, most SM are in Polo. We do not have seperate rooms per se since we are in an hangar. I wish we can be separated so when the cadets are doing there shin dig we can do our SM meeting  without overhearing each other.

I wear the BDU's, not the BBDU's.

I thought you said you were too heavy to wear AF-style?  If so, you should not be in BDUs.

Quote from: umpirecali on October 01, 2012, 01:34:19 PM
There wasn't any option for half and half.

On a given night, we'll have between 15-20 senior members present.
8-10 in golf shirt
2-3 in g/w
And about 4-5 in AF style

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/338453_209219445798534_5877971_o.jpg)

The majority of the people in this photo are in "USAF-Style" uniforms.  Both the flight suit and the BDU fall into that category.

I was about to compliment the seniors on proper uniform wear, and then I noticed the "issues".
Flightsuit second from left - both the MAJCOM and the nametag are incorrect, no idea what third from the right is wearing, but it isn't an approved
golf shirt.  Also, 101 cards are not part of the uniform and should not be worn unless you're involved in ES - a lot of members view them like
a generalized ID card, to be worn all the time, and that is not correct.

Well we just had a lengthy debate on the polo shirt (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16087.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16087.0)), I'm not debating the polo shirt, but I really wonder how many folks that just wear the golf shirt really know that it's not the basic minimal corporate uniform they are required to own (I'm speaking in general, not about the folks here directly on Captalk).  I think there are some who believe that the golf shirt IS the basic minimal uniform (again maybe not on this board). 

Like you mentioned above, I too have heard personally and from some members telling new members "don't bother just get the golf shirt" or "just throw on a golf shirt, that's all you need", without teaching new members the regulations that the golf shirt isn't the required basic minimal uniform (or maybe the folks telling that info themselves believe that the golf shirt is the basic uniform too).  Again not debating whether which is "better" or not, just what I've read from some posters in the past, and personally from listening to other members I've personally ran into.  It might be totally different on your end of the spectrum as we've seen here already every single unit is different.

Looks like umpirecali has about the same turnout as we do, 50-60 cadets and anywhere from 10-15 seniors.

A side note: most of us have to wear an ID for work, so we have our CAPID clipped to our uniforms out of habit. Makes it easier for people to see, especially if you're on a military base or facility, instead of fumbling around for your wallet or in one of your 10 pockets. The 101 card, at least mine, is behind my ID, and like I said, takes 2 seconds to flip my ID up so they can see it when I check in at Mission Base, or unclip it and hand it over.

I'm sure Eclipse will take issue with that  >:D

"Most of us"?

There's nothing wrong with having all your ID's together, I do it, too, it's just not necessary to have it worn all the time like
you were on NCIS.  The majority of members never get near a base, let alone meet on one.

In most cases, newer members wear the 101 all the time to show off their "ES-ness", until someone at an encampment,
etc., tells them to knock it off and you never see it again.

I guarantee you that, regardless of where units meet, no one is checking to insure you have an ID displayed, nor challenging those
without one.  There isn't even a specific reg that requires you have the ID on your person during routine activities.
(Go ahead, check, we'll wait...)

Surprising results of the poll so far.  It's not at all what I see when our seniors meet.  Almost everyone, without exception wears either the blue polo or civilian clothes if they're pressed for time.  A few will show up in work uniforms.  Very few people ever wear any other uniform.

But I suspect the difference would be the difference between cadets and seniors.

Up until earlier this summer when the scales tipped against me, I was one of three (sometimes 4) usually in USAF style uniforms each while while the other 6 or so where in a mix of polos or corporate uniforms. I normally wear the polo right now, and one of the other AF style guys in on a deployment, so there's usually only one SM not in the polo/G&W (mostly polo).

I'mn working on getting back in H/W regs (the last 3 pounds are KILLING me!) and I don't want to drop the cash on another ser of uniforms, so the polo is a nice alternative for me.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2012, 07:24:07 PM
"Most of us"?

There's nothing wrong with having all your ID's together, I do it, too, it's just not necessary to have it worn all the time like
you were on NCIS.  The majority of members never get near a base, let alone meet on one.

In most cases, newer members wear the 101 all the time to show off their "ES-ness", until someone at an encampment,
etc., tells them to knock it off and you never see it again.

I guarantee you that, regardless of where units meet, no one is checking to insure you have an ID displayed, nor challenging those
without one.  There isn't even a specific reg that requires you have the ID on your person during routine activities.
(Go ahead, check, we'll wait...)

Nope. There's not. It's not necessary. No one checks. No regs.

And no, I'm not trolling you for a response. I'm just saying it works for me and the people in my unit, and to a lesser extent my wing.

Most of our active seniors wear the AF style, or if some are pressed for time, AF uniforms.  Every once in a while will someone wear a polo shirt, but not often.

Of the 80 or so current senior and cadet members in our squadron, all but two wear the AF style uniform.   They both wear the CAP distinctive uniform because they cannot/do not meet the AF-style requirements.   Meeting the definition (or at least striving to) of "uniform" is a good thing.

The only people that ever show up in the golf shirt are from Group or Region and we quickly push them out the door (j/k...kind of :P :) ).   Honestly, our squadron has great Esprit De Corps and that combined with sharp uniforms seems to intimidate some of our friends at Group and Wing. 

Quote from: umpirecali on October 01, 2012, 01:34:19 PM
There wasn't any option for half and half.

On a given night, we'll have between 15-20 senior members present.
8-10 in golf shirt
2-3 in g/w
And about 4-5 in AF style

Then your answer would be the golf shirt uniform since most seniors are wearing it 8-10 out of 14/18 seniors. 

Quote from: A.Member on October 01, 2012, 07:53:16 PM
Of the 80 or so current senior and cadet members in our squadron, all but two wear the AF style uniform.   They both wear the CAP distinctive uniform because they cannot/do not meet the AF-style requirements.   Meeting the definition (or at least striving to) of "uniform" is a good thing.

The only people that ever show up in the golf shirt are from Group or Region and we quickly push them out the door (j/k...kind of :P :) ).   Honestly, our squadron has great Esprit De Corps and that combined with sharp uniforms seems to intimidate some of our friends at Group and Wing.

This sounds very much like my first CAP squadron.

Yes I am to heavy to wear AF Blues. I can pull off the BDU's, not the AF Blues. Meaning, My BDU's fit me well enough to look uniform and not like a bag of crap. In blues, I would look like a bag of crap beause of my weight. So, I am working on me weight. I have some "Disabilities" that prevent me from loosing the weight like normal folk.

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 09:10:44 PM
Yes I am to heavy to wear AF Blues. I can pull off the BDU's, not the AF Blues. Meaning, My BDU's fit me well enough to look uniform and not like a bag of crap. In blues, I would look like a bag of crap beause of my weight. So, I am working on me weight. I have some "Disabilities" that prevent me from loosing the weight like normal folk.

Just for clarity, can I assume you mean the while you fall within H/W regs, you choose not to wear the Blues because of appearance? One could read you post and think that you don't meet H/W and still choose to wear the BDUs. There's no problem with the former scenario, but the latter is against R39-1.

I've found that when I was close to the H/W line, but still legal that the short sleeve Blues didn't look great. Adding the service jacket made me look much better in that uniform.

Yes, It may be against 39-1, no more than the Polo Shirt for the Basic Uniform. I am on an Weight management regime, so to follow guidlines, im wearing the BDUs. As stated before there is no waiver for people with disabilties, so I told BDU's is fine just not AF Blues.

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:15:31 PM
Yes, It may be against 39-1, no more than the Polo Shirt for the Basic Uniform. I am on an Weight management regime, so to follow guidlines, im wearing the BDUs. As stated before there is no waiver for people with disabilties, so I told BDU's is fine just not AF Blues.

Follow what guidelines?

Either you're in H/W as indicated in 39-1 and can wear the USAF-Style uniforms, or you aren't.

BDU's are not "fine" if you are too heavy for blues.

I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

RM doesn't just poke fun at the regs. Given a chance, he would re-write the entire charter and organization so that we would wear elf costumes and caper about mission base while he looked upon us from his jewel-encrusted throne and threw little pickles at us.

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 01, 2012, 10:39:20 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

RM doesn't just poke fun at the regs. Given a chance, he would re-write the entire charter and organization so that we would wear elf costumes and caper about mission base while he looked upon us from his jewel-encrusted throne and threw little pickles at us.

bad image in my head

Just to be clear, the H/W numbers apply to wearing BDU's,  Blues  and the Green flight suit.

-NOT- to the G/W varieties, Blazer or Polo.

If you're too heavy for Blues, you're too Heavy for BDUs. Them's the rules. If you want them changed, push for it. But don't break 'em whilst doing it...

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

You may notice RM is no longer among us. You really sure you want to use him as an example? :o

Yeah, but I'm sure that wynd will still blow from the direction of Westover ...

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2012, 05:39:27 PM

Quote from: umpirecali on October 01, 2012, 01:34:19 PM
There wasn't any option for half and half.

On a given night, we'll have between 15-20 senior members present.
8-10 in golf shirt
2-3 in g/w
And about 4-5 in AF style

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/338453_209219445798534_5877971_o.jpg)

The majority of the people in this photo are in "USAF-Style" uniforms.  Both the flight suit and the BDU fall into that category.

I was about to compliment the seniors on proper uniform wear, and then I noticed the "issues".
Flightsuit second from left - both the MAJCOM and the nametag are incorrect, no idea what third from the right is wearing, but it isn't an approved
golf shirt.  Also, 101 cards are not part of the uniform and should not be worn unless you're involved in ES - a lot of members view them like
a generalized ID card, to be worn all the time, and that is not correct.

This picture is about a year old and before I joined but we have since instituted a policy that the ID card (with CAP Id on one side and 101 on the other) be worn to all meetings.  You can site regs if you want to but that is what the XO said, and so that is what we do.

Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2012, 11:07:39 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

You may notice RM is no longer among us. You really sure you want to use him as an example? :o

As the Japanese say, "Are?"(sounds like arr-ay). Means "Eh?" or "What?" I think. Even though my mom is Japanese and I grew up around Japanese speakers I still don't speak a dadgum word. Anyway...WHAT? Did he finally go to ground?

Quote from: umpirecali on October 01, 2012, 11:30:21 PM
This picture is about a year old and before I joined but we have since instituted a policy that the ID card (with CAP Id on one side and 101 on the other) be worn to all meetings.  You can site regs if you want to but that is what the XO said, and so that is what we do.

CAP doesn't have XO's at the unit level, either.

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 01, 2012, 11:43:35 PM

Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2012, 11:07:39 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

You may notice RM is no longer among us. You really sure you want to use him as an example? :o

As the Japanese say, "Are?"(sounds like arr-ay). Means "Eh?" or "What?" I think. Even though my mom is Japanese and I grew up around Japanese speakers I still don't speak a dadgum word. Anyway...WHAT? Did he finally go to ground?

Check his status...

Quote from: PHall on October 02, 2012, 12:04:50 AM

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 01, 2012, 11:43:35 PM

Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2012, 11:07:39 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

You may notice RM is no longer among us. You really sure you want to use him as an example? :o

As the Japanese say, "Are?"(sounds like arr-ay). Means "Eh?" or "What?" I think. Even though my mom is Japanese and I grew up around Japanese speakers I still don't speak a dadgum word. Anyway...WHAT? Did he finally go to ground?

Check his status...

I... am surprised.

Most of my seniors wear the polo for uniformity and those directly involved with us follow the cadet UOD.

Understood, 10-4, Roger-That. Looks like alot of SMs wear the polo combo

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 02, 2012, 12:42:22 AM
Understood, 10-4, Roger-That. Looks like alot of SMs wear the polo combo

It depends on the squadron really. This website represents a rather small portion of CAP.

Quote from: PHall on October 02, 2012, 12:04:50 AM

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 01, 2012, 11:43:35 PM

Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2012, 11:07:39 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 01, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
I know  ;D Was poking at the unfair regs there for a bit.

If RM can do it, why cant I? JK

You may notice RM is no longer among us. You really sure you want to use him as an example? :o

As the Japanese say, "Are?"(sounds like arr-ay). Means "Eh?" or "What?" I think. Even though my mom is Japanese and I grew up around Japanese speakers I still don't speak a dadgum word. Anyway...WHAT? Did he finally go to ground?

Check his status...

Banned, you say...  :o

Lets recruit more members dangit. Aint nothing better than a computer chair CAP member ;)

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 02, 2012, 12:52:17 AM
Lets recruit more members dangit. Aint nothing better than a computer chair CAP member ;)

We ARE the Swivel Chair Patrol, auxiliary of the United States Chair Force.

Is there anymore "Forums" about CAP or CGAUX? Is it that people do not like joining these pages and pages of very usefull information?

There's a couple of others that have a sub-forum about CAP, but they are mostly dead.

These days anything that takes more effort then pushing the "Like" button or saying "Nice!" is more effort then people can muster.

This is a long-form version of the tubes, and we hold people to a standard of decorum and spelling / grammar.  That
tends to fly in the face of short-form services.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 02, 2012, 02:18:53 AM
There's a couple others that have a sub-forum about CAP, but they are mostly dead.

These days anything that takes more effort then pushing the "Like" button or saying "Nice!" is more effort then people can muster.

This is a long-forum version of the tubes, and we hold people to a standard of decorum and spelling / grammar.  That
tends to fly in the face of short-form services.

I find it odd that you mention spelling and grammar, when I find at least three instances of improper usage of same in this post.  >:D

Well I can tell you my "Grammar" and "Engrish" is not that great. On the other hand, do not let that deter me from this Forum. I have a "Known" learning disability, TBI such an terrible thing. Anywho, this forum is Legit, and im not big on forums.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2012, 11:50:37 PM
CAP doesn't have XO's at the unit level, either.

Mine did. :)

Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2012, 02:53:58 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2012, 11:50:37 PM
CAP doesn't have XO's at the unit level, either.

Mine did. :)

BITD you could create whatever titles you wanted to and randomly assign permissions any way you wanted to.
These days units are supposed to stick to prescribed duty titles, and eServices does not allow for custom titles.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 02, 2012, 03:01:37 AM
BITD you could create whatever titles you wanted to and randomly assign permissions any way you wanted to.
These days units are supposed to stick to prescribed duty titles, and eServices does not allow for custom titles.

I now hang my head in shame as Bob uses the term "BITD" to describe my most recent tour as a squadron commander.

I am now, truly, "olde"

My unit had SMs wearing every variation. The CC was usually in BDUs, occasionally in grey/white combo. I usually wore the same. A couple were almost always in  the polo shirt combo, 2 or 3 in civies, 2-3 others in BDUs. Very difficuly getting consistency in uniform wear among the SMs.

It depends on Cadet, Senior or Composite Squadron.

Air Force style uniform. Just came back from Wing commanders call and the UOD was polo shirt. Been in CAP for 21 years and never owned the polo shirt. Is this the future?

Quote from: Private Investigator on October 03, 2012, 09:46:40 AM
It depends on Cadet, Senior or Composite Squadron.

I'm not sure that the squadron type matters significantly.  If we went with the stereotypes the seniors that work with cadets tend to be a little younger and possibly fitter than most CAP members and therefore more able to wear the AF-style uniform, but I'm not sure that really holds up very well.  I'm also not a big believer in the stereotype that senior squadrons are flying clubs where they don't care about anything but getting in the air and don't want to be bothered with uniforms. 

The only thing that surprises me a little bit about the poll results so far is that the CAP corporate uniforms are doing so poorly.  If we believe that most seniors can't wear AF-style (not an unreasonable assumption) then you would think that the CAP corporate uniform would be the primary alternative.  Instead, what we may be seeing is that if a senior can't wear the AF-style uniform then they just don't want to be bothered buying all the ribbons, rank, etc. for the corporates and just go with the cheapest possible alternative - the golf shirt. 

What I notice and do not like is that everyone is not "uniform". Uniform means everyone wearing the same thing, not everyone wearing something different. UOD (uniform of the day) should mean something.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 03, 2012, 12:21:26 PM
The only thing that surprises me a little bit about the poll results so far is that the CAP corporate uniforms are doing so poorly.  If we believe that most seniors can't wear AF-style (not an unreasonable assumption) then you would think that the CAP corporate uniform would be the primary alternative.  Instead, what we may be seeing is that if a senior can't wear the AF-style uniform then they just don't want to be bothered buying all the ribbons, rank, etc. for the corporates and just go with the cheapest possible alternative - the golf shirt.

Maybe it's because the aviator combo is so drab and colourless, not to mention that it doesn't have an authorised headgear or service coat (the blazer is NOT a service coat)?

But the BBDU and Blue flight suit are pretty similar alternatives to the AF style, both versions of which are commonly seen at meetings. 

I think "all" should be authorized to wear the BDU's. Get rid of BBDU's. One color Flight Suit. Problem solved.

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 03, 2012, 11:55:02 PM
I think "all" should be authorized to wear the BDU's. Get rid of BBDU's. One color Flight Suit. Problem solved.

As has been pointed out numerous times, that is not CAP's choice to make. That's an Air Force decision.

(http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smilies/icon_deadhorse.gif)

Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 04, 2012, 12:56:53 AM
Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

We were never issued BDUs. They have always been a purchase item. There have been some available as direct surplus from the AF, but that has never been a primary source. They seem to be readily available from the companies who make them, and I'm willing to guess that there are more civilians buying them for hunting gear than there are CAP members getting for uniforms. Yes, the cheap supply has dried up, but they are still available.

The AF makes the rules, and the current one says that we wear BDUs. End of discussion, as far as they are concerned.

Quote from: SarDragon on October 04, 2012, 01:31:29 AM

Quote from: Devil Doc on October 04, 2012, 12:56:53 AM
Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

We were never issued BDUs. They have always been a purchase item. There have been some available as direct surplus from the AF, but that has never been a primary source. They seem to be readily available from the companies who make them, and I'm willing to guess that there are more civilians buying them for hunting gear than there are CAP members getting for uniforms. Yes, the cheap supply has dried up, but they are still available.

The AF makes the rules, and the current one says that we wear BDUs. End of discussion, as far as they are concerned.

Well...not ENTIRELY true. We have had access to surplus BDUs from DRMO for years, but as you said, that has dried up. Our supply closet has quite a few sets available for issue, but a lot of those have come from former members who have no need for them anymore. In fact, one of our new seniors told me he still had a few sets and boots from before the ACU became mandatory, so there's probably a few former AD that have some, or were able to go "dumpster diving" when they were tossed out.

The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 04, 2012, 01:46:16 AM
The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

I think the phase in date for BDUs for CAP was 1994. Of course the military started bringing in BDUs in 1977-78. 

Quote from: Private Investigator on October 04, 2012, 07:51:07 AM

Quote from: Garibaldi on October 04, 2012, 01:46:16 AM
The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

I think the phase in date for BDUs for CAP was 1994. Of course the military started bringing in BDUs in 1977-78.

We were wearing BDUs at my OS squadron in '87. The fatigues were no longer available. NHQ said we could. I'm not sure when the phase-in date was, but I think it was before '94. The fatigues went away in '96, so the BDUs were authorized well before '94.

I still wore my fatigues from my last stint in CAP, and never bothered to get the BDUs, since I knew I was going to be growing my beard back when I left the unit, concurrent with my retirement from the Navy.

A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 04, 2012, 01:17:05 PM
A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

Why is it that virtually all senior squadrons I've encountered are that way?

My first CAP squadron was a composite squadron where everyone wore AF style.

Then I moved (due to getting married) and the only nearby squadron was a senior squadron.  They could have cared less about uniforms, not to mention I felt like useless baggage most of the time since I'm not a pilot.

I don't get it.

Quote from: CyBorg on October 04, 2012, 02:28:22 PM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 04, 2012, 01:17:05 PM
A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

Why is it that virtually all senior squadrons I've encountered are that way?

My first CAP squadron was a composite squadron where everyone wore AF style.

Then I moved (due to getting married) and the only nearby squadron was a senior squadron.  They could have cared less about uniforms, not to mention I felt like useless baggage most of the time since I'm not a pilot.

I don't get it.

I think I can help.

BDUs: $60 or so for a used set. Anywhere from $50-$120 for a pair of boots. $15 or so in patches. So worst case expenditure is $195 or so.

Polo: $30. Slacks: If you don't happen to have a pair hanging in your closet, $30 at Walmart. Shoes: again, if you don't happen to have a pair in your closet, $25 at Walmart. Total expenditure: $85 or so.

Then, you have to worry about grooming. Time it takes to throw on a polo shirt over the gray slacks you wore to work vs. time it takes to change completely into BDUs in the men's room. Do you REALLY do anything at a meeting that REQUIRES you to wear one over the other? Did you remember to shave this morning?

BDUs are time- and money-intensive. Polos are not. Most folks, I feel, are worried about these things, and balance the fact that it IS an easy to wear approved uniform combination over taking the time to make sure the BDUs are presentable, boots shined, etc. to wear it for 2 hours. Then, you have a few folks who spent their time on AD and "will not wear the AF style or any other military style uniform EVER again."

Garibaldi, what I was getting at was not necessarily the monetary aspect, but why the dislike of wearing the AF-type uniform seems to be concentrated, though not exclusively, in senior squadrons.  That's what I have observed, at least, and I've been a member of composite (4, including my current one), senior (1, a very bad fit, but there was nothing else nearby) and cadet (1) squadrons, in two wings.

Granted, it was a lot easier (and cheaper) to get the AF uniform back before the change to the McPeak/Fogleman style.  I got the Tony Nelson jacket, pants and shirt for under $50 at an army-navy shop.  There wasn't the difference between "officer" and "enlisted" cut service dress there is now.  A squadron member who was in the AFRES got me a flight cap at the BX.  I think the only things I had to order from the then-CAP bookstore were collar brass, blue nameplate and cap device.

It was much the same for BDU's.  They were a lot more plentiful then.

For the record...I cut my hair and shaved my beard off, by choice, when I joined CAP.  And, yes, I did take my blues/BDU's with me to work and changed in the men's room after.  I don't want a medal or pat on the back for that; it was just the way I worked it.

As well, our Deputy Commander of Cadets almost exclusively wears the golf shirt/BBDU's.

My experience, and I know this is painting with too broad a brush, is that many (not all) of those who won't wear the AF style (but could), do it because they don't want to be bothered with C&C's, ranks, etc.

Of course, YMMV vastly and probably does.

As well, the attitude that "if you're not a pilot you're baggage" I encountered in my senior squadron did a lot more to sour me than their attitude toward uniforms.

It is really pretty simple.

Senior squadrons are made up of a different type of person than you would normally find in a cadet only or even a composite squadron to some degree.  Most senior only squadrons are composed primarily of adults who either want to fly SAR or be involved in ES on some other level.  They are not trying to be Air Force. They will dress in a manner they find most comfortable to them or that fits their mission of choice while still obeying the rules.

The seniors in a cadet only squadron are there for the kids....oops... the cadets.   As such they might feel it is a bit incumbent on them to match the cadets out of a sense of a desire for uniformity and setting an example.   As the cadets are most likely aspiring to be in the Air Force or other military service, they want to look the part and act the part so the AF uniform and C&C fits them.  In other words, they are trying to be Air Force.

A composite squadron is made up of both types so you will see more of a mix of uniforms.  Of course if the seniors meetings are on a different schedule than the cadets, you will see the seniors looking more like a senior only squadron with the exception of the seniors working with cadets who will dress more like the seniors in cadet squadrons. 

All of this is perfectly understandable and there is nothing wrong with it.   It should only take a very short while in CAP and a basic understanding of both the various missions of CAP and its various uniforms to get it.

Quote from: CyBorg on October 04, 2012, 05:23:42 PM
Garibaldi, what I was getting at was not necessarily the monetary aspect, but why the dislike of wearing the AF-type uniform seems to be concentrated, though not exclusively, in senior squadrons. 

I realize that. What I was trying to get at was one of the many reasons many seniors feel compelled to do polo over any other uniform. Having been in a senior squadron, cadet squadron, and composite squadron or three, I can say that in my experience it's money and time vs. other aspects.

My senior squadron (really a flight; we had maybe 6 active members) never wore uniforms to our meetings, only on activities that we sponsored.

My cadet squadron, as a cadet, we really didn't have much of a choice, and neither did the seniors. OD fatigues or blues.

My composite squadrons, pretty much if you didn't deal directly with the cadets, polo shirts or grey/whites. I am the sole exception in my current unit because I feel more comfortable in uniform.

If asked, I'm sure that they would respond that the polo or grey/whites are more comfortable. Most of our active seniors don't meet H/W standards, and the few that do still choose the polo. Given that we have 6 or 7 active pilots and they all wear the polo, I'm gonna have to go with comfort vs. money. Backing off my original statement, which is still valid, I will say comfort is mainly the deciding factor, not a dislike of the AF uniform per se.

I've only come across a few seniors who are adamant about not wearing the AF style uniform, either blues or BDUs, in my travels in 3 different wings in 3 different regions. One stated quite firmly that he "spent 20 years wearing AF blue, and I am sick of it and won't wear it again."

As for the dislike factor, I guess it's like Vandenbroeck said. Dress for the mission at hand, whether it be a meeting or a mission. And I'm sure that's going to open an already open can of worms.

Glad to help.

(http://4alifewelllived.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/can-of-worms.gif)

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 04, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
It is really pretty simple.

David, if anything in CAP is "simple," please let me know. :P

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 04, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
Senior squadrons are made up of a different type of person than you would normally find in a cadet only or even a composite squadron to some degree.

There were some members in my senior squadron that were exactly that way - mission-orientated, and good at it, and duly recognised for it.  However, they too often focussed on ES to the exclusion of the other two mandated missions of CAP.

There were others who only wanted to fly on the Air Force's nickel.  They also would sign up their significant others so they could joyride in CAP aircraft - and these significant others took part in NO other activities of the squadron.  We had a roster full of mostly-female SMWOG's and 2nd Lieutenants who I never met in two years in the squadron.  They also saw no need for positions like Administration, etc., unless it dealt directly with the airplane and they disliked giving cadets O-rides.

I am an Observer, but was still considered "baggage."  They wanted another pilot in the right seat.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 04, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
The seniors in a cadet only squadron are there for the kids....oops... the cadets.   As such they might feel it is a bit incumbent on them to match the cadets out of a sense of a desire for uniformity and setting an example.   As the cadets are most likely aspiring to be in the Air Force or other military service, they want to look the part and act the part so the AF uniform and C&C fits them.  In other words, they are trying to be Air Force.

We had seniors in the cadet squadron who didn't wear the AF uniform, even though some could.  The CC would only wear hers to a wing activity.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 04, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
A composite squadron is made up of both types so you will see more of a mix of uniforms.  Of course if the seniors meetings are on a different schedule than the cadets, you will see the seniors looking more like a senior only squadron with the exception of the seniors working with cadets who will dress more like the seniors in cadet squadrons. 

My first squadron must have been quite unusual, then.  We wore AF-only.  I never saw anyone in an alternative uniform.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 04, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
All of this is perfectly understandable and there is nothing wrong with it.   It should only take a very short while in CAP and a basic understanding of both the various missions of CAP and its various uniforms to get it.

I don't want to put across that there is anything "wrong" with it...except for the attitude from those who favour one group of uniforms that the others are somehow "lesser" members of CAP.  I don't believe that; never have.

But as for "a short while in CAP"...I've been in since 1993 with a couple of breaks in service and sometimes the attitudes still baffle me.

Uh, yes there is something wrong with people not wearing any uniform, even of the golf shirt variety, to CAP meetings. 

Quote from: RiverAux on October 04, 2012, 08:43:50 PM
Uh, yes there is something wrong with people not wearing any uniform, even of the golf shirt variety, to CAP meetings.

+1

"Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms.  However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform."
The above quote is from the CAP main web site.
I am very active IC and MP.  I am also the Wing's Government Relations Officer.  I have multiples of most of the AF and Corporate uniforms (no mess dress or blazer), which I wear often for missions, meetings with outside agencies, and exercises.  Our Squadron is a good mix of pilots and non-pilots (who we welcome with open arms.)  There is no good reason to require uniforms for our regular Squadron meetings.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 05, 2012, 12:37:58 AMThere is no good reason to require uniforms for our regular Squadron meetings.

Other than the fact that it is required by 39-1 (Table 1-1) in which it says that members wear the CAP uniform, "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1)?

Squadron meetings constitute both a "normal duty" as well as a "local function"

The web page is pretty obviously referring to those types of members that are prohibited from wearing CAP uniforms

We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...

Previously, there was no requirement for uniforms to be worn. Those days are gone and any non-regulatory (Meaning CAPM or CAPR) guidance to the contrary is either incorrect, or misleading.

Patron members, AE Members, Sponsor Members and Legislative Members do not have to wear uniforms. They also really don't do anything directly in CAP.

39-1 is very clear. Except for 'organized recreational activities' uniforms are mandatory. I wish people would get over this and simply do it. It's not that hard.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 05, 2012, 01:21:01 AM
We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...

Thank a diety there aren't more of these SM squadrons around.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on October 05, 2012, 03:24:38 AM
39-1 is very clear. Except for 'organized recreational activities' uniforms are mandatory. I wish people would get over this and simply do it. It's not that hard.

I think you're mixing the how to wear the uniform with the when.  39-1 does not mandate when a uniform must be worn, just when it it appropriate to wear it.  There are a few situations where wear is required and 39-1 states "will wear" as the mandate in those circumstances.

By custom and tradition, uniforms are strongly encouraged, but not required at senior meetings.  There are many legitimate reasons, mostly resulting from real life, why somone would not be in uniform.  It's better to have their participation than their absence and to leave it to local commanders to handle someone who habitually attends out of uniform.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 05, 2012, 06:03:21 AM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 05, 2012, 01:21:01 AM
We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...

Thank a diety there aren't more of these SM squadrons around.

The Squadron you wish wasn't around logged over 800 crew hours in CAP aircraft last fiscal year (impeccably dressed in CAP uniforms!), most of which were actual A missions.  We put around 400 hours on the planes, which justified two of the Wing's CAP aircraft. We have taken hundreds of damage assessment photos in recent years for ice storms and floods in declared disasters. We perform a substantial portion of the Wing's O-Rides. We have many qualified non-pilot crew members as well as enough qualified mission base personnel to put on our own SAREX. We raise enough funds on our own to provide Squadron funded training when National and Wing run short.

We have a good mix of adult members, many of which are entrepreneurs and professionals. Their time is precious, and we are thankful for any time they choose to donate to CAP. To suggest they change clothes in their car or a public restroom because they chose to squeeze a Squadron meeting into their busy schedule is absurd.

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I do understand the role of uniforms in Cadet and Composite Squadrons and in real and training missions, and do not intend any slight of that role.

Relevance?

Those members would fly those hours regardless of the charter, and thousands more were flown by members not in senior squadrons.
Unless the implication is that these seniors would leave if forced to meet in proximity to cadets.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 03:58:37 PM
We have a good mix of adult members, many of which are entrepreneurs and professionals. Their time is precious, and we are thankful for any time they choose to donate to CAP. To suggest they change clothes in their car or a public restroom because they chose to squeeze a Squadron meeting into their busy schedule is absurd.

Ah, ok. 

Then I guess everyone else's time is plentiful and of less value.

This "you're lucky I showed up at all" nonsense is a key limiting factor in CAP's growth and ability to plan effectively.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 07, 2012, 04:41:59 PM
Relevance?

The relevance is that you can have an effective program without a strict uniform policy at Senior Squadron meetings.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 07, 2012, 04:41:59 PMThose members would fly those hours regardless of the charter, and thousands more were flown by members not in senior squadrons.
Unless the implication is that these seniors would leave if forced to meet in proximity to cadets.

Many of these members would not function well in a Cadet or Composite Squadron for various reasons so, no, these hours would not be flown in this case.  We should be glad that we have three unique types of Squadrons to appeal to a larger group of potential members.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 07, 2012, 04:41:59 PMAh, ok. 

Then I guess everyone else's time is plentiful and of less value.

Frankly, yes (to varying degrees.)  That doesn't make them any better than anyone else, it just changes the way they manage their life.  An engineer, doctor, lawyer, computer programmer, may have a billing rate of $150, $250, or more per hour.  Depending on their situation, they maybe could skip that CAP meeting and make $500 for themselves or their company.  Many people in this category have alot to offer CAP, and I for one appreciate what they are giving up to be there.  If you respect their situation, rather than resent it, you will gain a valuable CAP member.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 07, 2012, 04:41:59 PMThis "you're lucky I showed up at all" nonsense is a key limiting factor in CAP's growth and ability to plan effectively.

Our Squadron has had no problems with growth or effective planning, in fact just the opposite.

Right, but properly wearing the uniform would undo all of that.  ::)

It sounds like you're talking about the Auxiliary squadrons of the Royal Air Force before the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._601_Squadron_RAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._601_Squadron_RAF)

They were known as the "Millionaires" and were the sons of the hoi polloi of their day: nobility, bankers, Fleet Street financiers, etc. and "the rabble" need not apply, except as enlisted personnel to service the aircraft, Bentleys and Rolls-Royces.

Oh...these chaps didn't like wearing the regulation RAF blue uniform, either.

Unfortunately, the realities of war diluted their "exclusiveness."

The senior squadron I was in didn't like being around cadets, either, and made no secret of it, but why do you say that these individuals "would not function well" in a Cadet or Composite Squadron?

BTW, I am a former IT professional...and I don't consider my time any more/less "valuable" than any other CAP member.

It sounds like your squadron fosters an elitist attitude, which I find most distasteful.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Many of these members would not function well in a Cadet or Composite Squadron for various reasons so, no, these hours would not be flown in this case.

The inability to work and play well with others is generally considered a negative personality trait.  I guess that's different when you're "more important" then everyone else.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Frankly, yes (to varying degrees.)  That doesn't make them any better than anyone else, it just changes the way they manage their life.  An engineer, doctor, lawyer, computer programmer, may have a billing rate of $150, $250, or more per hour.  Depending on their situation, they maybe could skip that CAP meeting and make $500 for themselves or their company.  Many people in this category have alot to offer CAP, and I for one appreciate what they are giving up to be there.  If you respect their situation, rather than resent it, you will gain a valuable CAP member.

And many more people in this category somehow find the ability to work within the full mission of CAP with no issue, including
maintaining the organization that allows the menu-riders their place to play, and still finding 5 minutes to put on a uniform before a meeting.  The idea that any volunteers personal time is some how more valuable is an unacceptable, condescending attitude, which is again part of the overall problem in CAP - "Let someone else carry the corners, I'm important..."

Wow, that went sideways fast.

Here is an interesting site listing the value of volunteer time by state. 
http://www.independentsector.org/volunteer_time (http://www.independentsector.org/volunteer_time)

I think we can safely say our CAP time is of equal value no matter what we do outside of CAP.  I appreciate my volunteers'  tight schedules whether they are a highly compensated professional or someone who works a couple of jobs to make ends meet.  To that end I encourage uniform wear to meetings but refuse to go all uniform-Nazi on them if they are unable.  There is no wiggle room for those activities that specifically require wear of the uniform. 

Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 07, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I wouldn't disagree, but that presupposes those are the only two options.

Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 07, 2012, 06:44:39 PM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 07, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I wouldn't disagree, but that presupposes those are the only two options.

There are plenty of options, but all too often I've seen haste result in improper uniform wear.  I'd rather see street clothes than make someone miss a safety presentation because they forgot part of their uniform. 

Of course there are countless would've, should've, could've scenarios.  I'm not advocating laissez faire leadership, just minimal discretion.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 06:55:58 PM
Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

Do you avoid "a strict uniform policy" or do you have a "we don't wear uniforms to the meetings" policy? 

I thought when you do airforce missons you have to be in uniform anyway?And I would suggest not  knocking Down the cadets so bad because there are more cadets better qualified than a lot of senior members.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 07, 2012, 07:01:30 PM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 06:55:58 PM
Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

Do you avoid "a strict uniform policy" or do you have a "we don't wear uniforms to the meetings" policy?

I would say the former.  We don't make a big deal of it either way.  We certainly do not discourage anyone from wearing uniforms to our meetings.  Some meetings we may have a third in uniform, other times just a few people.  No one would feel out of place either way.
We are not anti-uniform.  Wearing them correctly during missions, exercises, meetings with outside agencies, o-rides, etc. is mandatory and not questioned.

Here's my view of this issue in a Guidance and Clarification Format:

The usual question or view (including those expressed by a few members here): CAPP 50-1 Page 60 states "Although most members elect to wear a CAP uniform, the uniform is not mandatory unless conducting the cadet program or when flying in corporate aircraft.  However, members who choose to wear a uniform must wear it properly." Knowledgebase answer 535 states "Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity), but not necessarily the AF style service uniform" We believe these mean there is no requirement for members to wear uniforms for day-to-day activities.

My answer: Non-concur. CAPM 39-1 Para 1-2. sates "[Commanders] will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of
this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform. The wing commander, or the commander to whom such authority is delegated by the wing commander, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. (The region commander will prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.)"

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1 Line 6 states the uniform is "Mandatory when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1). Note 1 states "The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."

CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 1-5 states "Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis...It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform."

CAPM 39-1 Para 1-5 a. states "Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver
buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem."

CAPM 39-1 Para 1-5 b. states "CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers;
black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve. Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

Based on the above I believe some kind of uniform is required except for 'organized recreational activities' for which a wing commander may authorize non-uniform items as there is not necessarily an appropriate uniform combination.

Short short version: The G/W or AF Blues uniform is mandatory for all members to own. Some type of uniform is required for all activities except 'organized recreational activities.' Line 1 and 2 are the ones often cited from table 1-1 (Flying and CP activities) but line 6 makes it mandatory for ALL activities. Even your weekly meetings. Trying to counter this just isn't supported by the reg as written. CAPP 50-1 and the website (sometimes cited) and even KB are not directive in nature. CAPM 39-1 is.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 06:55:58 PM
Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

To change into a uniform takes 5 to 10 minutes max.  Your members are really that put out?  I call B.S.! 

Despite excuses to the contrary, uniform wear is required per 39-1.  It's not that hard, really.   

And while you might not think uniform wear is that important, National does.  Guess who's opinion on the matter actually counts?  (hint:  it's not yours)

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 07, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I've seen the polo shirt commonly worn with pretty much anything for pants because the member thought just changing shirts was better than nothing, and it very much is not.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 03:58:37 PM

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I hope you all show up in March to straighten us out!

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 08, 2012, 11:25:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 03:58:37 PM

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I hope you all show up in March to straighten us out!

Please explain how wearing a uniform would inhibit your ability to do what you do.  I ask because I'm legitimately confused as to how it limits the actions which you've previously discussed, and because I don't feel that you've stated so clearly.

Quote from: 68w10 on October 09, 2012, 04:35:12 AM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 08, 2012, 11:25:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 07, 2012, 03:58:37 PM

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I hope you all show up in March to straighten us out!

Please explain how wearing a uniform would inhibit your ability to do what you do.  I ask because I'm legitimately confused as to how it limits the actions which you've previously discussed, and because I don't feel that you've stated so clearly.

I don't dos work in my uni-form. Iz rathur be in my jammies.

This is very simple and hardly worth six pages of distractions.

Being part of a composite squadron, seniors wear the uniform of the day.  One day a month is blues or white shirts when promotions take place.  That is typically the meeting I attend as it is when pilots have their mandatory safety meeting.

The other three weeks of the month are either BDUs or the blue polo shirts/gray slacks.  I don't normally go to those, but did last night and was actually in civies as I live 40 miles away and did not want to make an extra trip home to get a uniform I forgot that morning.  Nobody had a problem with that.

It is what it is, but hardly worth getting all bent out of shape over.

Quote from: 41839j on October 09, 2012, 03:04:51 PMI don't normally go to those, but did last night and was actually in civies as I live 40 miles away and did not want to make an extra trip home to get a uniform I forgot that morning.  Nobody had a problem with that.

There's a difference between the occasional "I forgot." and those who try to make the argument that wearing a uniform to meetings is somehow burdensome to their super-important, uber-valuable time.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
There's a difference between the occasional "I forgot." and those who try to make the argument that wearing a uniform to meetings is somehow burdensome to their super-important, uber-valuable time.

Quite so, especially when burning 40 miles worth of fuel is involved.

Just speaking for myself and maybe my squadron's attitude in general, the mindset would be "everyone forgets...have a seat and a cup."

For someone repeatedly not wearing a uniform simply because they don't feel like it, that would probably be an issue.

As well, my squadron is a composite squadron, but one with an aircraft (we give a lot of O-rides) and several pilots on the senior side.  I don't think I've ever seen any of our pilots not wear an authorised uniform.

Quote from: 68w10 on October 09, 2012, 04:35:12 AM
Please explain how wearing a uniform would inhibit your ability to do what you do.  I ask because I'm legitimately confused as to how it limits the actions which you've previously discussed, and because I don't feel that you've stated so clearly.

I never said wearing a uniform would inhibit anyone's abilities or actions and I can't really explain to you why someone would think that ...

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 09, 2012, 10:02:23 PM

Quote from: 68w10 on October 09, 2012, 04:35:12 AM
Please explain how wearing a uniform would inhibit your ability to do what you do.  I ask because I'm legitimately confused as to how it limits the actions which you've previously discussed, and because I don't feel that you've stated so clearly.

I never said wearing a uniform would inhibit anyone's abilities or actions and I can't really explain to you why someone would think that ...

Based on your posts, I got the impression that you are of the opinion that wearing uniforms or participating in meetings with a more strict military element would inhibit your Squadron's ability to do all those things that you listed previously. 

The reason that this attitude is so troubling to members of this forum (or at least to me) is because of the implied elitism demonstrated by your comments. 

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 09, 2012, 10:02:23 PM
There is no good reason to require uniforms for our regular Squadron meetings.

I expect my Cadets to show up properly groomed, wearing the proper uniform in the proper way.  Your members are not, because you don't think that there's a good reason to. 

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 09, 2012, 10:02:23 PM
Their time is precious, and we are thankful for any time they choose to donate to CAP. To suggest they change clothes in their car or a public restroom because they chose to squeeze a Squadron meeting into their busy schedule is absurd.

I expect my Cadets to read appropriate CAP publications, including the regs which state that uniforms are required at the vast majority of CAP functions.  Your members are not expected to abide by those regs, because your time is so much more valuable than mine or theirs. 

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 09, 2012, 10:02:23 PM
Many of these members would not function well in a Cadet or Composite Squadron for various reasons so, no, these hours would not be flown in this case.

I expect my Cadets to recognize that volunteer service is about giving something, not refusing to play by the rules because it's inconvenient.  Your members don't demonstrate this, because you bigger things to worry about. 

I am now commanding my second Senior Squadron and in both; uniforms were/are mandatory wear during every meeting except the Christmas Party and Summer Cookout.  Why?; because the requirement is clearly indicated in our regulations!  I also mandate Yeager Award test completions because I feel that the extra AE knowledge is valuable (especially to new members) but that is a personal decision/belief.  The requirement to wear uniforms is NOT discretionary. 

"Captain Morgan," please don't be offended by the postings that have appeared here.  All but a very few of the comments are provided by dedicated CAP officers who hope to HELP writers as well as readers - not denigrate those who are unaware of existing regulations.  Like many, I got the impression that you were stating that your members were too important/busy to change into uniforms, when in fact, you believe that wearing uniforms to meetings is "optional."  That, Sir, is not the case therefore the posters were merely trying to help you understand that fact.  Although I've been an active member of CAP for 28 years, I never fail to learn something from those who post on this forum. We all benefit when correction recommendations are accepted with gratitude as well as grace.   

Quote from: BSU Commander on October 10, 2012, 06:56:26 PM
The requirement to wear uniforms is NOT discretionary. 

So earlier this year when I skipped a safety standown meeting because I had to deal with an emergency at work and didn't have time to go home to change, I made the right choice?

No, you made the wrong choice in not putting a uniform in your car to take with you to the meeting. 

Quote from: RiverAux on October 10, 2012, 11:20:06 PM
No, you made the wrong choice in not putting a uniform in your car to take with you to the meeting.

Not helpful and a bit snide.  This was an unexpected occurrence, I was supposed to have 3 hours before the meeting.  Why would I take a uniform with me?  Or should I expect someone to accidently do a "drop database" in production every day?

I'd like to ask the two time squadron commander which is the correct choice:

1) Attend safety stand down in civies
2) Go home, change and arrive an hour late (probably missing most of it).
3) Skip the meeting because I don't have the mandated uniform available.

Quote from: bflynn on October 11, 2012, 12:07:58 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on October 10, 2012, 11:20:06 PM
No, you made the wrong choice in not putting a uniform in your car to take with you to the meeting.

Not helpful and a bit snide.  This was an unexpected occurrence, I was supposed to have 3 hours before the meeting.  Why would I take a uniform with me?  Or should I expect someone to accidently do a "drop database" in production every day?

I'd like to ask the two time squadron commander which is the correct choice:

1) Attend safety stand down in civies
2) Go home, change and arrive an hour late (probably missing most of it).
3) Skip the meeting because I don't have the mandated uniform available.

I would choose #1 in almost every instance, with an explanation to the commander. Frequent "explanations" might draw some flak, though.

There is a big difference between someone that shows up in civvies once in a blue moon and the folks that just don't want to wear uniforms at all. 

We had a Squadron meeting tonight.  There was a safety briefing.  We had brief reports from all the department heads.  We discussed the implications of the TFR for the VP debate.  We nailed down details and dates for upcoming meetings with the state police commissioner, the Commanding General of the KY Air National Guard, and a local ES agency.  We went over details of two O-Ride weekends coming up.  We developed a plan for the Squadron to fund our training for the rest of the year if Wing funds do not become available.  We went over the final statistics from the Counterdrug season that just ended.  We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork.  I stayed after the meeting to help a member enter his SQTR's in eServices.  It was a very full and productive meeting.  We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork. .... We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

And the expectations have been set for the next generation of members of your squadron that they may pick and choose what CAP regulations they can follow. 

Why do people believe that being "busy" negates the most basic parts of our program?

We're all busy, we all get to talk to uber-important people, we all plan "ultra-awesome activities" and we seem to find the time to wear a uniform.

If you think it's too much trouble, whatever, you'll reap what you sow, but don't wear it like some kind of badge of honor because
you're much too busy to "bother", or your "ultra-too-awesome" ops tempo writes you a pass.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We had a Squadron meeting tonight.  There was a safety briefing.  We had brief reports from all the department heads.  We discussed the implications of the TFR for the VP debate.  We nailed down details and dates for upcoming meetings with the state police commissioner, the Commanding General of the KY Air National Guard, and a local ES agency.  We went over details of two O-Ride weekends coming up.  We developed a plan for the Squadron to fund our training for the rest of the year if Wing funds do not become available.  We went over the final statistics from the Counterdrug season that just ended.  We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork.  I stayed after the meeting to help a member enter his SQTR's in eServices.  It was a very full and productive meeting.  We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

^ My emphasis added.   

B.S.!   

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We had a Squadron meeting tonight.  There was a safety briefing.  We had brief reports from all the department heads.  We discussed the implications of the TFR for the VP debate.  We nailed down details and dates for upcoming meetings with the state police commissioner, the Commanding General of the KY Air National Guard, and a local ES agency.  We went over details of two O-Ride weekends coming up.  We developed a plan for the Squadron to fund our training for the rest of the year if Wing funds do not become available.  We went over the final statistics from the Counterdrug season that just ended.  We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork.  I stayed after the meeting to help a member enter his SQTR's in eServices.  It was a very full and productive meeting.  We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

What?!  You wasted your time on all those other activities when you could have debated uniforms instead?  You should be banned from CAP Talk.     >:D

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 11, 2012, 03:01:34 PM
What?!  You wasted your time on all those other activities when you could have debated uniforms instead?  You should be banned from CAP Talk.     >:D

You owe me a new monitor from spewing A&W Root Beer all over mine.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on October 11, 2012, 03:01:34 PM

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We had a Squadron meeting tonight. We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

What?!  You wasted your time on all those other activities when you could have debated uniforms instead?  You should be banned from CAP Talk.     >:D

I wonder why there is so much uniform debate among members who apparently don't wear them anyway.

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We had a Squadron meeting tonight.  There was a safety briefing.  We had brief reports from all the department heads.  We discussed the implications of the TFR for the VP debate.  We nailed down details and dates for upcoming meetings with the state police commissioner, the Commanding General of the KY Air National Guard, and a local ES agency.  We went over details of two O-Ride weekends coming up.  We developed a plan for the Squadron to fund our training for the rest of the year if Wing funds do not become available.  We went over the final statistics from the Counterdrug season that just ended.  We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork.  I stayed after the meeting to help a member enter his SQTR's in eServices.  It was a very full and productive meeting.  We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

Perhaps if following the regulation were an expected practice--as it should be with any reg--you wouldn't have NEEDED to take time and talk about it.  You probably didn't take time to talk about how a safety brief was required, either, you just DID it.  How are uniforms any different?   ???

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 11, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
We had a Squadron meeting tonight.  There was a safety briefing.  We had brief reports from all the department heads.  We discussed the implications of the TFR for the VP debate.  We nailed down details and dates for upcoming meetings with the state police commissioner, the Commanding General of the KY Air National Guard, and a local ES agency.  We went over details of two O-Ride weekends coming up.  We developed a plan for the Squadron to fund our training for the rest of the year if Wing funds do not become available.  We went over the final statistics from the Counterdrug season that just ended.  We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork.  I stayed after the meeting to help a member enter his SQTR's in eServices.  It was a very full and productive meeting.  We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms.

"We did not have time to discuss the fact that only two people were wearing uniforms." Wanna bet?

"Hey everyone. It's been brought to my attention that CAP regulations actually require us to wear uniforms for our regular activities including squadron meetings. While we haven't done this in the past we do need to do this to make sure we are complying with the rules. Now, the minimum uniform required is either the Gray and White Aviator Shirt or Short Sleeve AF-Blues style uniform. Your initial packets have descriptions of them but if you need additional help please let me know. Now, I know we may not want to wear those on a weekly basis so I'm going to designate that the polo-shirt combination is an acceptable substitute for squadron meetings unless otherwise stated. I'll send out a letter later this week to clarify if needed. We need to all be in uniform by the end of November, if this is a problem please let me know sooner rather than later." I timed myself...that took 45 seconds to say out loud. Let's see if we can find 45 seconds in your meeting time...

"We had brief reports from all the department heads." There's a chance for the unit commander to inject it.

"We welcomed two new members and our Recruiting Officer fingerprinted them and helped them with their paperwork." Hey there's another perfect time.

Seriously, that excuse was weak to say the very least. It's not a 'discussion', it's a statement. In my little statement I even gave folks a reasonable deadline (6 weeks) to come into compliance and an even easier combination to use. (I'm not a fan of that, but it is technically allowable.) But that statement covers the why, the when, and even gives the real minimum uniform required. And you've already said folks have uniforms for flying and such, so no excuses there for folks not having them.

I'm in an all senior flight squadron here in central NY, and thus we're all usually in our sage green flight suits. Helps that most of the guys are active duty or retired AF, so I got my flight suit free.

A CAP member and a recruit were walking across a parking lot to attend a CAP meeting.
RECRUIT: "Hey, that guy in the Prius just mooned me!!!"
CAP MEMBER:"Oh, thats our Squadron Commander.  He's just changing into his uniform so we can present a professional image."
RECRUIT:"Classy.  Uh, I just remembered -- I promised my wife I would floss the dog tonight.  Maybe I'll catch you guys next week ..."

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 12, 2012, 11:56:44 PM
A CAP member and a recruit were walking across a parking lot to attend a CAP meeting.
RECRUIT: "Hey, that guy in the Prius just mooned me!!!"
CAP MEMBER:"Oh, thats our Squadron Commander.  He's just changing into his uniform so we can present a professional image."
RECRUIT:"Classy.  Uh, I just remembered -- I promised my wife I would floss the dog tonight.  Maybe I'll catch you guys next week ..."

Nice try, but it did your case no good what-so-ever... ::)

Pictures from the Legislative day prep meeting last year in Washington DC:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6813096346/#in/set-72157629526560779/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6813096346/#in/set-72157629526560779/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6959208607/#in/set-72157629526560779/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6959208607/#in/set-72157629526560779/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6959208927/#in/set-72157629526560779/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/civilairpatrol/6959208927/#in/set-72157629526560779/)

Very few uniforms. This scandalous behavior permeated our leadership at the National, Regional, and Wing levels. Chances are YOUR Wing leadership participated! Pictures were posted so the world would see how unprofessional we were.  We should cancel Legislative Day in 2013 to deal with this serious uniform issue!  You guys need to show up next year with bats and pitch forks and put a stop to this.

Why are you fighting this so vehemently?  :o  ???

So there are cases where members do not wear uniforms for every activity, I'll grant you that. But by and far it is, and should be, the exception rather than the rule.

You strike me as more and more desperate, backed into a corner, flailing wildly about with your hands over your ears 'LA LA LA YOU CAN'T MAKE ME DO IT! NO NO NO NO NO'.

We're not saying you shouldn't serve, or that we don't appreciate the work that is done. We are just saying that during your day to day operations, your weekly squadron meetings you should be wearing uniforms. Your 'Oh look he's changing in his CAR!' fantasy is easily countered by saying 'Use a restroom, not that hard.' Presumably said member came from somewhere with one even if your meeting location doesn't have one.

It's a simple exercise for the vast majority of the time. I'd be willing to bet those same wing/region/national leaders you are calling on for legislative day would say 'Yes, you should be in uniform' especially if confronted with those cites from the reg. Unfortunately, quite a few members, even commanders, are not fully aware of those rules. That comes from the way they were raised up and the fact that many MANY people still are under the impression it is 'only required' during flight or cadet operations.

That's called "selective observation". Don't look, don't notice, don't comment. Treat it like you didn't see a thing.

This conversation is one more example of CAPR 39-1 needing to be edited to catch up with reality.  As currently written and interpreted by some people, I should don my CAP uniform to participate in a CAP conference call.  After all, that's part of my normal duties as a CAP member.  And then there are my nightly net check-in's and my weeks as net control station. Not only that, I better watch out for those alert pages.  Even if I'm at work, should I presto change-o into my uniform before making calls to find a flight or ground crew?

Of course those examples are ridiculous, as is an overly rigid interpretation of the vague term "normal duties."  I suggest reasonable people will continue to disagree until we have a better definition.  Until then we rely on our commanders or activity directors to exercise some discretion and clarify expectations.


39-1 Table 1-1:
Wear: when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1). 

Yes, those examples are ridiculous.  Considering a squadron meeting an activity requiring a uniform is most certainly not. 

Quote from: Captain Morgan on October 13, 2012, 12:29:23 AM
Pictures from the Legislative day prep meeting last year in Washington DC:

Why do you keep bringing up a legislative days preparation meeting as if it was even relevant to this conversation?

I watched the videos for the winter 2012 NB meeting at legislative day and i couldn't see one person who was not in blues, blazer combo or a suit of some sort.  This leads me to believe that prep day(s) were just that, prep, and had a uniform standard, civilian dress casual as prescribed by the commanding authority. I wasn't there mind you its just an educated guess given the usual SOP for these types of events.

The last selection board for California Wing Commander was conducted by four full colonels from region HQ - all were wearing Pacific region polo shirts (not even a real uniform) and blue jeans - to conduct a wing commander selection board.

They later showed up at a squadron awards banquet dressed the same way.

Quote from: VNY on October 15, 2012, 03:16:44 PM
The last selection board for California Wing Commander was conducted by four full colonels from region HQ - all were wearing Pacific region polo shirts (not even a real uniform) and blue jeans - to conduct a wing commander selection board.

They later showed up at a squadron awards banquet dressed the same way.

Of all people, they should know better.

That situation doesn't change the requirement any more than if would if they had worn Mess Dress uniforms to both events.

Quote from: BSU Commander on October 15, 2012, 05:08:21 PM
That situation doesn't change the requirement any more than if would if they had worn Mess Dress uniforms to both events.

I hardly question their motivation or effectiveness - this was just an example that on the west coast at least, the lack of emphasis on uniforms comes from the top.  Its just not what they consider important.

Quote from: VNY on October 18, 2012, 03:22:41 PM
I hardly question their motivation or effectiveness - this was just an example that on the west coast at least, the lack of emphasis on uniforms comes from the top.  Its just not what they consider important.

(Jeff Spicoli voice from Fast Times At Ridgemont High)

Maybe it's that laid-back, peaceful easy feelin', California Dreamin', lifestyle, dude? :P 8)

Quote from: VNY on October 18, 2012, 03:22:41 PM

Quote from: BSU Commander on October 15, 2012, 05:08:21 PM
That situation doesn't change the requirement any more than if would if they had worn Mess Dress uniforms to both events.

I hardly question their motivation or effectiveness - this was just an example that on the west coast at least, the lack of emphasis on uniforms comes from the top.  Its just not what they consider important.

The majority of our members wear a CAP uniform during our monthly meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron in Oakland, California (we like to say the West Coast).  However, four years ago that was not the case.  It took leadership and setting the example from the senior staff to encourage members to wear their uniform to the monthly meetings.

Let be realistic about how long it takes to change into Blue and Greys.  Wear grey pants, black shoes, and a black belt with a civilian shirt.  Take the civilian shirt off, put on the blue polo and tuck it in.  60 seconds to change and off you go.  You don't even have to press the polo!!

Quote from: Mission Pilot on October 24, 2012, 04:59:08 PM

Quote from: VNY on October 18, 2012, 03:22:41 PM

Quote from: BSU Commander on October 15, 2012, 05:08:21 PM
That situation doesn't change the requirement any more than if would if they had worn Mess Dress uniforms to both events.

I hardly question their motivation or effectiveness - this was just an example that on the west coast at least, the lack of emphasis on uniforms comes from the top.  Its just not what they consider important.

The majority of our members wear a CAP uniform during our monthly meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron in Oakland, California (we like to say the West Coast).  However, four years ago that was not the case.  It took leadership and setting the example from the senior staff to encourage members to wear their uniform to the monthly meetings.

Let be realistic about how long it takes to change into Blue and Greys.  Wear grey pants, black shoes, and a black belt with a civilian shirt.  Take the civilian shirt off, put on the blue polo and tuck it in.  60 seconds to change and off you go.  You don't even have to press the polo!!

As a SqCC, My DC and I made every effort to come in blues.  My other members were pretty good about being in at least the polo combo.  There were a few times I had to come in civies because I was coming straight from work and was pretty filthy from the work day.  I figured going in dirty was better than not going at all.  But when you make the effort 95% of the time, coming in when it just wasnt possible to change over isnt a big deal.