Hey all, Id like to inform you about a disturbing new "regulation" I was informed about.
Recently I attended a SAREX in OKWG, and when a senior member suggested we should say the pledge of allegiance, etc, he was surprisingly shot down by the other staff present, who loudly announced; Civil Air Patrol members are *not allowed* to say the pledge of allegiance, or render proper national courtesies while wearing CAP uniform...
Last I checked we are all US citizens, and this is the USA, not Cuba.
So I ask: is this legitimate, if so (why on Earth??), if not, how do I go about informing my superiors that this is NOT okay, not okay at all...because it sounds like absolute bullcorn to me.
Thanks all.
Obviously they were wrong to say that it isn't allowed, but a SAREX is not the place for it. A SAREX is supposed to represent a time-sensitive operation and should be conducted as you would a real mission. If an IC took the time to say the Pledge on a real mission I'd yank his quals if I had that authority.
Quote from: CAPP 151When in a military-style uniform, stand at attention and remain silent.
Quote from: CAPP 151The pledge is not normally recited when CAP members are in
formation. Reciting the pledge when in military-style uniform, let alone
when assembled in a formation, is somewhat redundant – the uniform
and all the other trappings of national service are themselves symbols
of a special devotion to America.
Im fully aware of that. However, what was said was not that it wasnt proper. What was said is that its not allowed under any circumstances, at all. Not just at a SAREX.
Well then whoever said that was seriously misinformed.
I had the IG jump in my stuff one year becausevwe did not open our meeting with the pledge in formation. I politely opened the 151 and showed him where we don't do that. Been that way for years.
As what was quoted by Mike above,
Not allowed? No...
Not customarily required? Yes
Not to mention if everyone is in a military style uniform, who would be saying the pledge anyways?
My personal opinion follows that of CAPP 151, the fact that you are in uniform and serving that flag is pledge of allegiance enough.
I have seen though, the same people who tend to push the pledge generally mean well but are the same people unfamiliar with customs and courtesies.
So yeah, your staff aren't some communist anti-patriots who are burning the flag on the weekends, but rather following the spirit of the regulation, even though the delivery of the directive was (according to your account) too far in the other direction.
Personally you wont find the pledge at meetings or events I run for the reasons stated in CAPP 151.
The differences between CAP and the USCG Aux are interesting in this matter.
Auxies almost always recite the pledge at meetings. That is each member says it.
And uniform or not, then hand goes over the heart, Auxies do not salute during the pledge.
Not so long ago, two USCG officers who are district directors of the Aux (DirAux) called that into question and issued an directive that the during the pledge Auxies were to stand silently and salute. After it was pointed out on a public board that the new regulation violated the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan) which is promulgated by the Commandant of the USCG, the Chief Director of Auxiliary (ChDirAux) overrode the DirAuxs and reinstated the old rule:
1. Stand
2. Hand over heart
3. Recite as a group.
Quote from: Jack172402 on August 29, 2012, 09:14:43 PMLast I checked we are all US citizens
Check again.
Almost all of our meetings here open with the pledge, which I personally don't feel appropriate participating in, as my allegiance remains with Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors, and the United States will not accept my allegiance at the present time even I wished to give it. That said, I stand respectfully and remain silent while others participate.
Quote from: RRLE on August 29, 2012, 11:20:46 PM
Auxies almost always recite the pledge at meetings. That is each member says it.
Yep, at meetings we do. However, not at operational events (that I've ever seen).
Quote from: JeffDG on August 29, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Quote from: Jack172402 on August 29, 2012, 09:14:43 PMLast I checked we are all US citizens
Check again.
Almost all of our meetings here open with the pledge, which I personally don't feel appropriate participating in, as my allegiance remains with Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors, and the United States will not accept my allegiance at the present time even I wished to give it. That said, I stand respectfully and remain silent while others participate.
I get more tweaked when one of our members always pipes in "Let us pray" after we open with the pledge and goes on to pray.
I am a very religious man. I happen to be of a faith that is STILL being oppressed by "Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors" as it has been for 800 years by her predecessors....
CAP is a SECULAR organization funded in part by PUBLIC funds. I feel it is inappropriate to pray at a CAP meeting and infringes upon my freedom of religion. And before the barracks lawyers start, by allowing this prayer it runs afoul with the establishment clause IMHO.
steps off soapbox....
Quote from: JeffDG on August 29, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Quote from: Jack172402 on August 29, 2012, 09:14:43 PMLast I checked we are all US citizens
Check again.
Almost all of our meetings here open with the pledge, which I personally don't feel appropriate participating in, as my allegiance remains with Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors, and the United States will not accept my allegiance at the present time even I wished to give it. That said, I stand respectfully and remain silent while others participate.
I particularly like the "we're not Cuba" comment.
While I was born at the tail end of the USSR, every day in school my mom had to recite the USSR equivalent of the Pledge of Allegiance. They do the same thing here.
Well, from what I've observed in school, it's been so overused (every day in school), that the kids neither give a [darn], nor do they think about the words. Such things have to be understood, not shoved down our throats. As a student of history and an atheist, I do not say "under god" (I go silent for that portion). When it is appropriate, I do stand at attention and recite the rest of it.
Obviously this person is wrong. We open all of our meetings withthe pledge. Thats why I say CAP needs to be more standardized.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 30, 2012, 02:44:00 AM
Obviously this person is wrong. We open all of our meetings withthe pledge. Thats why I say CAP needs to be more standardized.
There is a standard.
Some people are following it, some are not.
If you recite the pledge while you are in a military-style uniform, you are wrong.
Quote from: Jack172402 on August 29, 2012, 09:18:57 PM
Im fully aware of that. However, what was said was not that it wasnt proper. What was said is that its not allowed under any circumstances, at all. Not just at a SAREX.
So...your second hand information that "someone said" it was not allowed is a supposed to suprise us?
Let it go. There is nothing to see here other then a chance to troll CAPTALK.
Quote from: tsrup on August 30, 2012, 03:04:16 AMIf you recite the pledge while you are in a military-style uniform, you are wrong.
So opening the weekly meeting, SLS, CLC, Wing Conference, etc. with the Color Guard coming in, posting the Colors, turning to the Colors, and reciting the Pledge is wrong?
Quote from: a2capt on August 30, 2012, 05:25:47 AM
Quote from: tsrup on August 30, 2012, 03:04:16 AMIf you recite the pledge while you are in a military-style uniform, you are wrong.
So opening the weekly meeting, SLS, CLC, Wing Conference, etc. with the Color Guard coming in, posting the Colors, turning to the Colors, and reciting the Pledge is wrong?
Yes.
If you are in a military style-uniform the proper thing to do when the pledge is recited is to stand at attention and remain silent. If you are at a non-CAP function and they recite the pledge that is fine. If you join in then you are not following proper customs and courtesies.
It's not difficult, read CAPP 151
Well, then if everyone at the meeting is in uniform, no one can say/lead/etc. So everyone stand there for 20 seconds silently. Yay.
Whatever.
If you're posting the colors, the more appropriate thing than the pledge would be to play the National Anthem or To the Colors, rather than recite the pledge. :)
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 30, 2012, 06:05:38 AM
If you're posting the colors, the more appropriate thing than the pledge would be to play the National Anthem or To the Colors, rather than recite the pledge. :)
This ^
Quote from: Jack172402 on August 29, 2012, 09:14:43 PM
Recently I attended a SAREX in OKWG, and when a senior member suggested we should say the pledge of allegiance, etc,
In CAP you can tell what background people have. Somebody who spends way to much time with the Cadet side would want to do the pledge and maybe a prayer. Somebody who is an ES guy/gal will get right to their task.
Like somebody mentioned CAP should be standarized but I have been a member of several Squadrons and Groups and each had basically the same format just small differences.
I was just thinking (I know it's dangerous)... I don't ever remember saying the pledge while serving in the Army while in uniform. However, at every wing, region and national CAP conference, the pledge was said after the posting of the colors.
Maybe we should start practicing what we preach (ref: CAPP 151) :angel:
I believe in the pledge of allegance, we say it at every meeting, and then an prayer afterwards. We are also an composite squadron. as former military, yes you do not recite the pledge while in uniform, national anthem is different. The rule goes in CAP, if you are not confortable with something, then dont do it, as we are an volunteer force not bound by contract. IF the senior leader wants to recite the pledge at meetings, missions, sarex etc, so be it, it is only 20 seconds. thats my 2 Cents. Get youe gear backed, chew gum, hydrate do watever in them 20 seconds.
Quote from: FW on August 30, 2012, 11:14:58 AM
I was just thinking (I know it's dangerous)... I don't ever remember saying the pledge while serving in the Army while in uniform. However, at every wing, region and national CAP conference, the pledge was said after the posting of the colors.
Maybe we should start practicing what we preach (ref: CAPP 151) :angel:
AGREED! 151 is pretty black and white.
Quote from: Devil Doc on August 30, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
I believe in the pledge of allegance, we say it at every meeting, and then an prayer afterwards. We are also an composite squadron. as former military, yes you do not recite the pledge while in uniform, national anthem is different. The rule goes in CAP, if you are not confortable with something, then dont do it, as we are an volunteer force not bound by contract. IF the senior leader wants to recite the pledge at meetings, missions, sarex etc, so be it, it is only 20 seconds. thats my 2 Cents. Get youe gear backed, chew gum, hydrate do watever in them 20 seconds.
Wrong attitude, and is a clear example of what is wrong with CAP.
Our regulations are not a buffet where members can pick and choose which ones they wish to follow.
I don't get the use of Prayer...Is this a chaplain session?
You say prayers at your CAP meetings? You must be joking. That has no place in CAP.
First here's the full quote from CAPP 151:
QuoteThe pledge is not normally recited when CAP members are in
formation. Reciting the pledge when in military-style uniform, let alone
when assembled in a formation, is somewhat redundant – the uniform
and all the other trappings of national service are themselves symbols
of a special devotion to America.
Note the first (imperative) sentence says "in formation". A bunch of people standing around the briefing room would not be considered a formation unless they are at attention and have performed a close order dress right dress.
The second sentence is declarative, not imperative, and does not describe a required action as does the first sentence but rather simply makes an observation.
Therefore there is nothing that prohibits a member who is wearing a military uniform but is not in a formation from reciting the pledge.
Additionally, members wearing civilian clothes, the Polo Shirt or Blazer Combination are not considered to be in a "Military Uniform" and should therefore always recite the pledge.
Quote from: Al Sayre on August 30, 2012, 03:13:34 PM
Additionally, members wearing civilian clothes, the Polo Shirt or Blazer Combination are not considered to be in a "Military Uniform" and should therefore always recite the pledge.
Again,
This assumes that all members are in a position where they CAN pledge allegiance. Some of us cannot do so. I refuse to cheapen the pledge of allegiance by making it some meaningless recitation of words just to go along with everyone else. At such time as I have taken the naturalization oath, then I will recite the pledge of allegiance, but until then, it is flat out inappropriate for me to do so.
Quote from: Al Sayre on August 30, 2012, 03:13:34 PM
First here's the full quote from CAPP 151:
QuoteThe pledge is not normally recited when CAP members are in
formation. Reciting the pledge when in military-style uniform, let alone
when assembled in a formation, is somewhat redundant – the uniform
and all the other trappings of national service are themselves symbols
of a special devotion to America.
Note the first (imperative) sentence says "in formation". A bunch of people standing around the briefing room would not be considered a formation unless they are at attention and have performed a close order dress right dress.
The second sentence is declarative, not imperative, and does not describe a required action as does the first sentence but rather simply makes an observation.
Therefore there is nothing that prohibits a member who is wearing a military uniform but is not in a formation from reciting the pledge.
Additionally, members wearing civilian clothes, the Polo Shirt or Blazer Combination are not considered to be in a "Military Uniform" and should therefore always recite the pledge.
You missed a part.
Quote from: CAPP 151When in a military-style uniform, stand at attention and remain silent.
note: "military-style",
Only the members wearing the polo will be able to recite the pledge.
This is supported by the handy picture that is also in the manual.
The fact remains that there are better/more appropriate things to do.
Going to try to gently steer this back on-topic. This thread was intended to address the OP's concern about the possibility of an extreme regulation and how to follow-up on it, not to debate the place of prayer in a CAP meeting or the idea of a foreign national taking the pledge of their host country.
To the OP, no the supposed regulation that CAP members are forbidden from rendering national courtesies or reciting the pledge when in uniform (yes I know it was "CAP uniform", but unless you're talking that specific in terms of 39-1 and distinctive uniforms, most people take that to include the AF-style uniforms) does not exist.
Just look at CAPP 3. This tells you exactly what you ARE to do given what style of uniform you are wearing. Would this publication exist if, as you were told, CAP was forbidden from rendering honors to the flag?! Sounds like those other staff members have forgotten common-sense and seem content in their own little worlds. An all too common trend.
Quote from: Brad on August 30, 2012, 03:41:38 PM
Just look at CAPP 2. This tells you exactly what you ARE to do given what style of uniform you are wearing. Would this publication exist if, as you were told, CAP was forbidden from rendering honors to the flag?! Sounds like those other staff members have forgotten common-sense and seem content in their own little worlds. An all too common trend.
What does the pamphlet regarding ELT/EPIRB searches have to do with customs and courtesies?
Quote from: tsrup on August 30, 2012, 03:46:10 PM
Quote from: Brad on August 30, 2012, 03:41:38 PM
Just look at CAPP 2. This tells you exactly what you ARE to do given what style of uniform you are wearing. Would this publication exist if, as you were told, CAP was forbidden from rendering honors to the flag?! Sounds like those other staff members have forgotten common-sense and seem content in their own little worlds. An all too common trend.
What does the pamphlet regarding ELT/EPIRB searches have to do with customs and courtesies?
Fixed, I looked at the wrong line in the table. You knew what I meant though...