In the last line of the cadet oath it says to "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation." I think we should add god in there. so it will sound like this. "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my god, community, state, and nation." notice i bolded "my god". So its not sack religious to other religions. What do you think?
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:00:55 PM
In the last line of the cadet oath it says to "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation." I think we should add god in there. so it will sound like this. "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my god, community, state, and nation." notice i bolded "my god". So its not sack religious to other religions. What do you think?
Very bad idea. It is not CAP's role to prepare anyone to be of service to any god. If you want that training, go to a religious group of your choice.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:00:55 PMWhat do you think?
I think you need to focus your attention elsewhere then this forum, at least until you better understand the fundamentals of CAP.
No.
One, CAP is not religious in nature. Two, forcing cadet members who:
A) Practice religions where their deity figure is not a "god" or don't have a god at all, and
B) Are non-religious to start with
to pledge an oath which demands service to the "god" is not only defeating the point of CAP having defined missions, but sends a message that we are a religiously charged group that forces our volunteer youth to equip themselves for service to a deity rather than the actual goal of service to community, state and nation.
I find it awkward enough saying it in the Honor Guard Creed (I don't mind the Bearers Creed because of the implementation).
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:00:55 PM
In the last line of the cadet oath it says to "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation." I think we should add god in there. so it will sound like this. "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my god, community, state, and nation." notice i bolded "my god". So its not sack religious to other religions. What do you think?
I don't have a god. Who am I being prepared to serve then?
Also, please LEARN the oath first:
Quote"I pledge to serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation."
I understand what you are saying. On the other hand, the line would say my god. Which shows that your not serving just the god of the christians. If you are muslim then you are worshiping the god of the muslims, or whatever religion you are your serving your god.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:28:00 PM
On the other hand, the line would say my god.
Not.
Everyone.
Has.
One.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 05:23:51 PM
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:00:55 PM
In the last line of the cadet oath it says to "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation." I think we should add god in there. so it will sound like this. "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my god, community, state, and nation." notice i bolded "my god". So its not sack religious to other religions. What do you think?
I don't have a god. Who am I being prepared to serve then?
Also, please LEARN the oath first:
Quote"I pledge to serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation."
I do know my cadet oath. You are preparing to serve no god. Hard to explain it would be easier to explain if we were face to face.
You said "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation."
Oath says: "advance my education and training rapidly" (this is one message) and " to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation." (second message).
The meaning between how you wrote it is quite different from the actual thing.
But again, if I'm a preparing to serve no god, then I don't need to say "my god" either. In fact, Jews don't even like to say/write out the word G-d. Others are PRIVATE in their religious beliefs, and I don't say "under god" for the Pledge of Allegiance. Research the history of WHY these things were added to our money and oaths, and then think about it.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:00:55 PM
In the last line of the cadet oath it says to "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation." I think we should add god in there. so it will sound like this. "Rapidly prepare myself to be of service to my god, community, state, and nation." notice i bolded "my god". So its not sack religious to other religions. What do you think?
What do I really think? Not no....but HELL NO!
a) It implies that there is a god....and therefore excludes all athiests and polythiests.
b) It violate the CAP's non-discrimantion policy.
c) It is NOT what the Cadet Program is doing. I as a CP officer know what skills it takes for you to be prepared to be of service to your community, station and nation....you need to talk to your preacher to find out what your god demands of you.
Tick-Tock.
Where's the mod lock?
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:30:08 PMI do know my cadet oath. You are preparing to serve no god. Hard to explain it would be easier to explain if we were face to face.
CAP is specifically a
secular organization which is intended to allow for opportunities to serve a member's community and train young people in
the ways of leadership and good citizenship.
Its mission does not include religious training or affiliation.
For one adding my god would be perceived that we are endorsing religion and having a preference to single entity religions. While in some aspects we are a private entity in regards to the corporate side of the organization the bulk of our funding comes from USAF who are not allowed to discriminate against a individual for their religious beliefs.
There are enough annotations in the DoD referring to a supreme being of any organized faith though the common reference is God. There should be no religious connotation to the cadet oath at all, this is a can of worms that does not need to be opened.
While there are many references to God in many aspects of God and especially the DoD, it does not need to be added to the cadet oath, as that may be deemed highly offensive to some members, parents, and others.
Disclaimer: This is simply IMHO and does not endorse or support any type of religion or anti religion agenda.
Shouldn't be any agenda within CAP.
I don't believe, but I respect the right of others and their beliefs. If they keep their views to themselves, I keep mine to myself.
Why we have people already calling for locks is beyond me. So far its a pretty decent discussion. At least wait for the tilt before we start jjst locking threads where we might have the chance to educate a cadet. I am seeing religious and non-religious members actually agreeing on the topic.
When I was in the Marines it was, and still is "God, Corps and Country." When I was in boot camp you had to attend church on Sundays in boot camp. You were told to sign up for which ever service you wanted to attend. it was taught that believing in a higher power was one of the reasons Marines were successful. Now, to say the Marines is a religious organization? :o No, Im not that bold.
One recruit blurted out "Sir this recruit doesn't have a religion" He was barked back with "You have about 10 seconds to find one." We had prayer leaders assigned to each religion represented. At the end of the day, we had various religions that would separate into groups for about 10 minutes. Mormons, a couple of Jewish guy, Christians, etc. But CAP isnt the Marines. We are a volunteer civilian non-profit corporation. We also had many who didnt participate. They actually called it "devotional time". I cant speak for the other services, but in the Marines, "God" actually is a big part in the ethos of the Marine Corps. However I knew several Marines who were atheists who did just fine. Nor did I ever see one disrespectful or intolerant of that part of the Corps foundations.
I like your intent but here is my concern as a Christian. I don't need an oath to proclaim what my priorities are. I would rather keep it to myself that lump my "God" generically in with another religion. Nor do I want someone who doesn't believe in God, mine or not, to have to rattle off something that means nothing to them. I know why I do what I do, and why I make the decisions I make. There are plenty of organizations you can join where fundamental belief in God is a requirement for membership.
I read the current oath, and I see pledging faithfulness to God is already in there if you so chose to have that mindset when reciting it. As a Christian stating "I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation." To me, and probably you, those are all things that go hand in hand with pretty much every religion.
The thing about oaths is that they have to match the mission of the organization as a whole. Does a Walmart employee have to pledge a belief in God? Heck, even in the Marines there was never any "oath" that you had to specifically proclaim a belief in any God. I would imagine though that there are some differences when it comes to Chaplains. But even then, Chaplains aren't really in CAP to preach their particular religion. More to be neutral counselor to everyone drawing on their experiences. Many have professional training in counseling people outside of CAP. If you need specific guidance in CAP from a Chaplain, then you can locate one who shares your specific beliefs. I even know atheist CAP members who treat Chaplains with the utmost respect,and who have gone to one for marital issues. So to wrap it up. Your intent is noted. Just not in this venue.
So as a Christian, my first instinct is to say "YEAH!!!!" Then after I ponder it for a second or two, its not needed I dont think, for the reasons I cited above.
I see were we are all coming from. I see that some people are to "private" about there religions to admit that they belief in whoever there god is or the weather or not there going to serve that god. As stupid as that sounds to me i will respect your belief and opinion. I am personally very religious and i'm not afraid to admit that i believe in my god.
Okay....lock please.....before I give the filters a thoughal testing.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:56:38 PM
I see were we are all coming from. I see that some people are to "private" about there religions to admit that they belief in whoever there god is or the weather or not there going to serve that god. As stupid as that sounds to me i will respect your belief and opinion. I am personally very religious and i'm not afraid to admit that i believe in my god.
They are not too "private" to admit anything. They simply keep their faith closer to them and don't think the world needs to know about it. I've met a number of people who were Christians, but it was their own flavor of it, whether non-denominational, or more spiritual than organized. It's simply another flavor like Calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, Greek/Russian Orthodox, Old believers, Baptist, Mormon, Episcopalian, etc. All Christian, but all with their own specific differences and beliefs on the same subject matter.
It's great that you feel strongly about your religion, but I hope you DO keep it to yourself at CAP, as it's simply not the place (outside of a Chaplain type event) to espouse views in either direction.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:56:38 PM
I see were we are all coming from. I see that some people are to "private" about there religions to admit that they belief in whoever there god is or the weather or not there going to serve that god. As stupid as that sounds to me i will respect your belief and opinion. I am personally very religious and i'm not afraid to admit that i believe in my god.
They are not too "private" to admit anything. They simply keep their faith closer to them and don't think the world needs to know about it. I've met a number of people who were Christians, but it was their own flavor of it, whether non-denominational, or more spiritual than organized. It's simply another flavor like Calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, Greek/Russian Orthodox, Old believers, Baptist, Mormon, Episcopalian, etc. All Christian, but all with their own specific differences and beliefs on the same subject matter.
It's great that you feel strongly about your religion, but I hope you DO keep it to yourself at CAP, as it's simply not the place (outside of a Chaplain type event) to espouse views in either direction.
let me tell you something sir god is part of me in
everything i do. The
bible says you should not be afraid to admit your religion. Remind you i am speaking from a christian perspective so if you are christian and your to afraid to admit your religion then what faith in jesus do you have?
As part of being a christian your supposed to be able to admit your religion you don't have to go preach about it! You currently do not have to be to private about it to not admit that you believe in your beliefs.
RedSox, Your youthful inexperience is getting the better of you. Calling out people you dont know on an internet site is juvenile. Your actually being counter-productive to your goal and you dont even realize it.
I am going to start off very bluntly:
This is an awful idea. It does sound nice, don't get me wrong, but it you think of the whole picture, it wouldn't be fair. How many people are in your squadron? We can use mine for example. About 150. Now, of about those 150, I know a big majority of them are either not religious, or their religion doesn't consist of one/a God. A lot of those people include very good friends of mine, and I know for a fact how uncomfortable they would be if they had to say that they work for God in their Oath. I know some that would quit.
Do you remember that Non-Discrimination Oath you have to take immediately after joining? I do, and that was almost a year ago. Non-discrimination means saying no to sexism, racism, and not judging against religion or culture. I myself am a pretty strict Catholic, and will show it at CAP. But, you have to be discreet to respect those around you. I proudly wear my cross and dogtags under my uniform for meetings and activities in CAP. I attend Chaplain services and Mass during CAP sponsored events that give me the opportunity to do so. But while a majority in CAP believe in a God, a lot don't, and it definitely isn't our place to make them.
I believe that if this was a total Christian organization, sure, go for it. But it's not. CAP gives you the freedom to believe in what you want. So if this is important to you, preach it to yourself. You don't need an official Oath to pledge yourself to work for God, and it shouldn't be a big issue to do it privately as opposed to publicly.
CAP already gives every member opportunities to express their religion in some way- don't abuse that.
Let's turn the table. What if someone wanted to add something about there being "no god, and god didn't exist?" Same thing as what you are doing except it dumps on athiests, agnostics, and polytheists.
If the Presidential Oath, Oath of Commission, and Oath of Enlistment all can go without it, our cadet oath certainly can.
Heck, I, were I still a commander, would have no problem if at the end of the oath for a promotion ceremony you wanted to add 'so help me God' as a number of folks do with the previous three do from time to time, I'm cool with that. If, however, you were teaching it to subordinates adding those 4 words, then I would have an issue with that!
The phrase 'under God' or 'in God we trust' and the like didn't really start creeping up into the American lexicon for official functions (the pledge, oaths, money and whatever) until generally the 1950s(ish) as a way of differentiating ourselves from the communists of the Soviet Union.
Quite a few of the founding fathers were Christians, however a number of them were not. They were deists.
Read the Declaration of Independence. Guess what? No mention of 'God.' It mentions 'their creator' but that is pretty inclusive of many different world views, including those without creationist stories. (Little bit of a stretch for them, but still fairly workable in that it is saying they are inherent rights of people, which is the point Thomas Jefferson was trying to make.)
The Constitution also makes zero mention of God. The only thing it says is in the amendments where it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" That's not just against a state religion (i.e. The Church of England) but about establishing religion as a requirement at all. This is the heart of the if you want to add it to the end when saying it personally, it gets into Constitutionally protected territory if I say you can't do that. But the very same amendment can get you into trouble if you start trying to require other people to say it.
The BSA, as a private organization can add it in there all they want. CAP gets quite a bit of money from tax payers so requiring something like gets into very risky territory. This is one of the reasons that religious organizations and taxpayer money tend not to mix so well either.
For a secular organization, based culturally on the US Military (sorry to those corporatists who don't like that idea), I think it is very appropriate for us to leave it out from the official version. If you personally want to add it for your own recitation, go for it. But if asked what the oath is, and you add it...you are now wrong because it isn't part of it. And it shouldn't be.
Look at it this way, if you will:
If you look at the Cadet Oath, you will see that there is nothing in there that says you will obey your parents (unless they are Officers), attend school, or be nice to others but that is expected by everyone I can think of. Just because it's not in the Cadet Oath doesn't mean it isn't something important. Now granted, a person's religious beliefs are theirs and theirs alone so for you and your particular beliefs, it is expected that you will follow it anyways.
Ah... both functionally illiterate and a religious zealot. Who would have thought?
That was a little harsh, wasn't it? Pointing out generalities is one thing, but personal attacks are entirely another.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 05, 2012, 10:20:15 PM
Ah... both functionally illiterate and a religious zealot. Who would have thought?
Ad hominem attacks are not warrented. We all have our beliefs, and there is no need to insult people's beliefs.
As a believing Christian, who regularly participates in the worship services of my church, I would suggest that any of us who choose to do so can give far greater witness to our faith by the example of our lives than through any words we recite.
We have freedom to religon, but we do not have freedom to force our religous beliefs onto eachother. I'm Protestant, I believe and love God and Jesus and follow the teachings of the bible. But, no adding of religous references to a non religous organization. We're all CAP members, and we should view eachothers professional religon as CAP. We must eat, breathe, sleep, and think CAP when we're with CAP on a professional level. To explain:
My religon at CAP is CAP (in a practical sense). Not Protestant (again, in a practical sense). Why? My religon is not essential to our operations. I view all members religons (outside of CAP chaplians who are here to serve our wonderful country and their god/s) as CAP (yet again, in a practical sense). That way I do not judge them outside of their professional life. If they have a religous concern they want to bring up to me, I am all ears, but other than that, it is not a concern and none of my business what they believe. Same goes for all hot key subjects, like sexual preference, politics, etc. You need to know your men, but you don't need to know everything they believe in (outside of what I am saying below).
Only time religon should be involved with CAP is when a member is obligated by their religon to attend services or prayer or whatever, if their religon stops them from doing something (like eating something their religon doesn't allow them to), or if they need to talk to their chaplain about religous matters, and in certain cases if CAP members need to go out of regulation to accomodate their religous beliefs. I've heard of cadets having to wear skirts, certain headgear, grow beards, etc. to accomodate specific religous practices. I'm cool with that, they are keeping to their obligations as religous men and women, and I respect them just like anyone else.
Everything is about professionalism and understanding. Sometimes the best understanding comes from not knowing and avoiding things you don't need or want to know, sadly (this applies to many things). Adding religon to CAP complicates things a great deal. I prefer to have people keep their religous views outside of the workplace except for any case pointed out above or case by case basis. That way, everyone is happy and people don't waste their time fretting over other peoples religon, or lack of it.
I wear the cross around my neck (one I found at my local BX that is supposedly standard issue), tucked under my shirt and not visible. Otherwise I seperate church from state (in a more fitting sense).
I hope this helps you, and I love the Boston Red Soxs too.
YMMV. Just my 0.02 cents taught to me by Air Force members.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2012, 05:29:52 PM
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:28:00 PM
On the other hand, the line would say my god.
Not.
Everyone.
Has.
One.
+1
RedSox, your devotion to your faith is fine and dandy. Feel free to do whatever it is that you do. But when you're a member of an organization with a multicultural, multifaith member base DO NOT try to mix the two. You will step on more toes than you can count; you've already stepped on quite a few.
And all of us have at least five toes on each foot (six for those form Chernobyl).
Lock... I'm a Christian (actually, my dad was a pastor) and this thread has been asked, answered and fallen on deaf ears. Religion has no place in the oath.