Anyone notice the box that pops up when you hover over a task now includes wording that the evaluator was (or was not) eligible to evaluate on the date listed?
I'm wondering how that eligibility is determined. A good number of my GTL, GBD and AOBD tasks are coming up as not eligible to evaluate on the date listed, and I know darned well that they are.
That changed on 23 July.
"The SQTR page of Operations Qualifications now requires all perquisites(sic) tasks to be completed before submitting any new tasks."
We were (are) still trying to determine what that meant from a practical perspective.
Presumably, you have to have completed the SET exam, be current and qualified yourself (for a calendar year), and be Safety current, etc.
I had sent one of my staff to NESA with a laundry list of questions for Lt Col Desmaris, and this was one of them, but unfortunately he was too busy
to get button-holed.
We found out about this while trying to enter some training tasks during our EAA mission. It means that you now have to complete things in order: Prerequisites - Commander's Approval - Fam & Prep - Commander's Approval - Advanced Training + Missions.
In the past you could more or less pencil whip it and put in tasks anywhere on the SQTR regardless of whether or not the lower tasks have been completed or not. For example, there was nothing stopping you from entering "Move as Part of a Search Line" (an advanced task) for GTM3 before having completed all of the Fam & Prep tasks and commander's approvals. Also, in the past you could enter tasks for GTM2 or GTM1 before a single thing had ever been entered on GTM3.
Basically, they've made OpsQuals conform to the regs. Reference CAPR 60-3, 2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf)
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 02:58:23 AM
Basically, they've made OpsQuals conform to the regs. Reference CAPR 60-3, 2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf)
Understood, and good on them, but what does that mean for stuff that cross-validates on multiple SQTRS? Will the ratings w/o FAM/Prep
completed no longer accept that sign-off?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:05:24 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 02:58:23 AM
Basically, they've made OpsQuals conform to the regs. Reference CAPR 60-3, 2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf)
Understood, and good on them, but what does that mean for stuff that cross-validates on multiple SQTRS? Will the ratings w/o FAM/Prep
completed no longer accept that sign-off?
Example?
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:09:04 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:05:24 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 02:58:23 AM
Basically, they've made OpsQuals conform to the regs. Reference CAPR 60-3, 2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf)
Understood, and good on them, but what does that mean for stuff that cross-validates on multiple SQTRS? Will the ratings w/o FAM/Prep
completed no longer accept that sign-off?
Example?
P-0101 (keep a log) is on UDF, GT3, MSA & MS. You could be fam / prepped for UDF but not for MS. In the olde days it would show everywhere.
BCUT is on UDF, GT3, FLM, MSA & MO
Last time i did the math (which was a while ago), there were about 15 or 20 tasks which appear on more than one SQTR.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 02:58:23 AM
We found out about this while trying to enter some training tasks during our EAA mission. It means that you now have to complete things in order: Prerequisites - Commander's Approval - Fam & Prep - Commander's Approval - Advanced Training + Missions.
In the past you could more or less pencil whip it and put in tasks anywhere on the SQTR regardless of whether or not the lower tasks have been completed or not. For example, there was nothing stopping you from entering "Move as Part of a Search Line" (an advanced task) for GTM3 before having completed all of the Fam & Prep tasks and commander's approvals. Also, in the past you could enter tasks for GTM2 or GTM1 before a single thing had ever been entered on GTM3.
Basically, they've made OpsQuals conform to the regs. Reference CAPR 60-3, 2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf)
Turkal...Turkal...why do I know that name...
Roger, just did an experiment. One of my cadets is GTM2, but not 18 so he can't be a GTL. I cleared his task out for "Setup Shelter", one that is on both SQTRs, from his record so that it didn't show up on either rating. When I re-entered it onto his GTM2 it automatically populated to GTL even though he hasn't completed the prereqs for that rating.
It seems that the tasks will cross-validate to higher ratings, even if the higher rating doesn't have its prereqs/fam&prep/etc complete.
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 01, 2012, 03:18:05 AM
Turkal...Turkal...why do I know that name...
I'm MESS, that might be why :) . According to your sig I wasn't around when you were though.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:20:00 AM
Roger, just did an experiment. One of my cadets is GTM2, but not 18 so he can't be a GTL. I cleared his task out for "Setup Shelter", one that is on both SQTRs, from his record so that it didn't show up on either rating. When I re-entered it onto his GTM2 it automatically populated to GTL even though he hasn't completed the prereqs for that rating.
It seems that the tasks will cross-validate to higher ratings, even if the higher rating doesn't have its prereqs/fam&prep/etc complete.
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 01, 2012, 03:18:05 AM
Turkal...Turkal...why do I know that name...
I'm MESS, that might be why :) . According to your sig I wasn't around when you were though.
HA! I knew it!
OK, I am in eServices right now and I see an example, and I >like< it, but it is going to cause all manner of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
An SET has to be fully qualified on the date of the evaluation. If they aren't, the system flags it. If an SET was waiting renewal, late in his safety,
or maybe his own qual lapsed, then they were >not< qualified at that time to be an SET.
As the reality of this creeps into the collective consciousness, there will be blood...
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:24:22 AM
OK, I am in eServices right now and I see an example, and I >like< it, but it is going to cause all manner of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
An SET has to be fully qualified on the date of the evaluation. If they aren't, the system flags it. If an SET was waiting renewal, late in his safety,
or maybe his own qual lapsed, then they were >not< qualified at that time to be an SET.
As the reality of this creeps into the collective consciousness, there will be blood...
Its one of those things that we know is right, but we're disappointed to have lost the back door that we've had available for so long.
I just went back in and took a closer look. Tasks were completed in the proper order, evaluators meet all requirements.
Shows not eligible to evaluate for three different evaluators, one of them the Wing ESO. Interesting.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:29:06 AM
Its one of those things that we know is right, but we're disappointed to have lost the back door that we've had available for so long.
Agreed - it also has a line for - Skills appt.
Is there a system to appoint people as specific evaluators that I don't know about?
(Please say yes).
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:38:03 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:29:06 AM
Its one of those things that we know is right, but we're disappointed to have lost the back door that we've had available for so long.
Agreed - it also has a line for - Skills appt.
Is there a system to appoint people as specific evaluators that I don't know about?
(Please say yes).
Not sure, where do you see that? I'm an ESO so I might not need to be designated like that.
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4315/sqtrnewchkblur.jpg)
This looks to me like exactly what we're looking for, what they can be an SET for, and if they were current.
Maybe the first one isn't implemented yet?
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:40:08 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:38:03 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 01, 2012, 03:29:06 AM
Its one of those things that we know is right, but we're disappointed to have lost the back door that we've had available for so long.
Agreed - it also has a line for - Skills appt.
Is there a system to appoint people as specific evaluators that I don't know about?
(Please say yes).
Not sure, where do you see that? I'm an ESO so I might not need to be designated like that.
Just found it before you posted.
The only Appointments I know of in OpsQuals would be for Pilot ratings and FROs (primary left toolbar). Though when I look at a task evaluated by an individual who has pilot appointments, the pop up doesn't change to reflect that.
So is everyone "NOT eligible for now?"
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 04:07:57 AM
So is everyone "NOT eligible for now?"
Once upon a time I remember seeing reference to some kind of SET appointment module in ops qual but haven't seen it since.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 01, 2012, 04:09:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 04:07:57 AM
So is everyone "NOT eligible for now?"
Once upon a time I remember seeing reference to some kind of SET appointment module in ops qual but haven't seen it since.
Was due in Feb, no release date yet.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 04:07:57 AM
So is everyone "NOT eligible for now?"
I have some that show IS eligible. Can't find any rhyme or reason.
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2012, 04:25:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 04:07:57 AM
So is everyone "NOT eligible for now?"
I have some that show IS eligible. Can't find any rhyme or reason.
Ugh - doing this piecemeal only makes it
harder...
I just looked at my stuff, and I have several tasks that have cross-populated into achievements that I have no approvals in.
I can't make any sense out of the SET business, especially when a couple of the more recent "NOT Eligible" ones were signed of by someone I'm very sure was qual'd at the time.
I am seriously confused. My squadron commander is coming up as not eligible for the commanders block. At least I was warned that after it taking 4 months to get my qualifications back I could look at them getting pulled again this fall. Now I know why...
There are obviously bugs, but validations are still being posted and no qualifications are being pulled.
So at this point, all we know is that there was a RSS release on this, but what it actually does is TBD.
No idea whether cross-taskings are effected, and those SQTR entries appear to do nothing.
Ed Bos - any chance you can find Lt Col Desmaris while you guys are still down there and get some detail?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2012, 03:58:25 AM
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4315/sqtrnewchkblur.jpg)
This looks to me like exactly what we're looking for, what they can be an SET for, and if they were current.
Maybe the first one isn't implemented yet?
Whatever this was / is, it appears to have been rolled back as it is no longer appearing as above.
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I just discovered that I did not get my former commander's signature on the paper SQTRS where it says "Commander approval for familiarization tasks." I have almost completed other tasks. Will I have to redo all tasks I have approved now? Can I have my current commander sign off here? There will be a date discrepancy, having this commander signing the preparatory tasks after approving other advanced tasks, for example.
Flyer333555
If they were validated online, then there's no point in revisiting it. If they weren't, then it depends on your wing's SOP as to whether they are acceptable.
The oritinal statement was:
"The SQTR page of Operations Qualifications now requires all perquisites(sic) tasks to be completed before submitting any new tasks."
I attended NESA and took the Scanner and Observer courses in sequence. Neither of these was posted to SQTR until 5 days after I left the school and neither have yet been approved by WHQ. By looking at SQTR it appears that the Observer prerequisite of Scanner may have been accepted, at least as "Training". However, by strict application of the statement above, no Tasks should have been accepted for Observer until after the Wing approves the Scanner tasks.
It seems SQRT is doing things differently than the statement would suggest. I think the statement above needs to be clarified.
Don't use NESA as an example of how this will work long term. NESA uses a back end .xml upload that operates much differently than someone actually typing the task information into OpsQuals. There are a number of "quirks" in the system that NESA staff uses to upload tasks.
Quote from: quietbirdman on August 14, 2012, 06:09:43 PM
The oritinal statement was:
"The SQTR page of Operations Qualifications now requires all perquisites(sic) tasks to be completed before submitting any new tasks."
I attended NESA and took the Scanner and Observer courses in sequence. Neither of these was posted to SQTR until 5 days after I left the school and neither have yet been approved by WHQ. By looking at SQTR it appears that the Observer prerequisite of Scanner may have been accepted, at least as "Training". However, by strict application of the statement above, no Tasks should have been accepted for Observer until after the Wing approves the Scanner tasks.
It seems SQRT is doing things differently than the statement would suggest. I think the statement above needs to be clarified.
Normally NESA quals do not go through wing - they are approved at the national level by the activity director.
Quote from: flyer333555 on August 10, 2012, 09:51:49 PM
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I just discovered that I did not get my former commander's signature on the paper SQTRS where it says "Commander approval for familiarization tasks." I have almost completed other tasks. Will I have to redo all tasks I have approved now? Can I have my current commander sign off here? There will be a date discrepancy, having this commander signing the preparatory tasks after approving other advanced tasks, for example.
Flyer333555
If I get something like that at the Wing level for approval, I'll generally kick back an e-mail to the member and commander to see if something was mis-dated, or if a commander had verbally approved participation.
I don't see the point of the reg getting ink on paper, but in seeking and obtaining the commander's approval. If the Commander tells me everything's cool, I'm good with that.
Your current commander needs to approve your participation in anything you do, including ES.
That approval has to be substantiated not only for you, but for higher HQ, inspections, and investigations.
That's why it has to be revalidated on a regular basis.
I did not want to start a new thread since this question (s) is/are similar to questions that have been asked above. I understand that the system wants a person to complete the prerequisites before continuing training.
As I am working through both my mission scanner (everything signed off and approved) and starting my mission observer training, will the system reject the entries? I am asking because on my last sortie for MS, I started the in flight portion of the MO training since we were in the air and could kill two birds with one stone. The familiarizationpart I had infomally done before the sortie but in an effort to save time, the plan was to return to that at the next meeting and get the sign offs.
Also, do I have to have a mission number assigned to the familiarization training portion? It is all classroom/ pre-mission planning type things.
Thanks!
Quote from: RMW14 on September 20, 2012, 01:25:29 AM
I did not want to start a new thread since this question (s) is/are similar to questions that have been asked above. I understand that the system wants a person to complete the prerequisites before continuing training.
As I am working through both my mission scanner (everything signed off and approved) and starting my mission observer training, will the system reject the entries? I am asking because on my last sortie for MS, I started the in flight portion of the MO training since we were in the air and could kill two birds with one stone. The familiarizationpart I had infomally done before the sortie but in an effort to save time, the plan was to return to that at the next meeting and get the sign offs.
If your 101 shows you as a qualified MS, the MO SQTR should accept the fam & prep entries.
QuoteAlso, do I have to have a mission number assigned to the familiarization training portion? It is all classroom/ pre-mission planning type things.
Thanks!
No mission # needed.
Quote from: RMW14 on September 20, 2012, 01:25:29 AM
Also, do I have to have a mission number assigned to the familiarization training portion? It is all classroom/ pre-mission planning type things.
You actually can't, and that field should be removed from FAM/PREP.
You're not allowed to be
at a mission until FAM/PREP is
completed.
Ah ok. I never understood why the mission number slot was there for the pre-training parts?
I am still listed as a trainee MS on the MO sheet but the training was only completed this past weekend with the second training sortie that was required. I am guessing a further check off from a higher command is required? eServices did accept the radio work and search pattern type things on the MO SQTR.
Quote from: RMW14 on September 20, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
Ah ok. I never understood why the mission number slot was there for the pre-training parts?
Probably a developer not totally familiar with the process or regs.
By the (recent) letter of the regs, advanced tasks should no longer be allowed until FAM/Prep is completed and
approved, however we've received no word on how this effects cross-rating tasks where you might be working on
one rating and it gives you credit across several.
Quote from: RMW14 on September 20, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
I am still listed as a trainee MS on the MO sheet but the training was only completed this past weekend with the second training sortie that was required. I am guessing a further check off from a higher command is required? eServices did accept the radio work and search pattern type things on the MO SQTR.
Your commander or his designate will need to review and approve the upgrades and submit the rating up the chain.
For better or worse, eServices will accept just about anything you enter, and the validation has to be done manually.
I don't know Why the mission number slot is there either, but it's on all tasks for all the Gt SQTRs. I do like it though. If there is a mission number, hopefully it is a training number, it can help track down where things happened if there are any problems with their SQTRs, or with someone else's SQTRs, and they took their task evaluations at the same exercise. So, I try to get as many of them in there as possible.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 20, 2012, 04:18:41 AM
I don't know Why the mission number slot is there either, but it's on all tasks for all the Gt SQTRs. I do like it though. If there is a mission number, hopefully it is a training number, it can help track down where things happened if there are any problems with their SQTRs, or with someone else's SQTRs, and they took their task evaluations at the same exercise. So, I try to get as many of them in there as possible.
Don't get me wrong - I prefer people use it, it's just that it doesn't belong on the FAM/PREP tasks.
OPINION:
The mission number slot is for a training mission number. the sign-off slots at the bottom are for trainingmission numbers or SAREX numbers. You can input task completion dates without training mission numbers but not the SQTR sign-off. Just to cover my tail, I always get a training number from Wing when we train.
/OPINION
There is no reason why the mission number slot has to filled with be a "training mission" or SAREX number. It can be any mission number where the task was evaluated by the SET, including an actual mission.
Obtaining a mission number for all tasks completed isn't a horrible idea; it's just not necessary. The presence of mission number doesn't make the training any more (or less) valid than without.
Quote from: EMT-83 on September 20, 2012, 02:46:24 PM
There is no reason why the mission number slot has to filled with be a "training mission" or SAREX number. It can be any mission number where the task was evaluated by the SET, including an actual mission.
Obtaining a mission number for all tasks completed isn't a horrible idea; it's just not necessary. The presence of mission number doesn't make the training any more (or less) valid than without.
Personally, I don't have time to train folks on an actual mission. If you can train during a mission, great. I must have adult ADD or something. And you're right; I've been going round and round with my training officer about the necessity of a mission number for training. I don't think we should, she thinks the opposite and I can't quite find a reason to disagree.
Unfortunately, all of my current sign offs have been on training missions/SAREX's. Being a fll time college student and working full time, I normaly can't make it to NSAR of Hawk during the summer.