Can anyone here help explain how this was approved for wear during encampment?
I'm not trying to flame on the cadet or anything, just wondering...
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3)
You don't need a face book to see it either.
Not a valid link.
Sorry about that. Should be good to go now.
You'll notice the cover right off the bat, fyi.
Quote from: Cool Mace on July 24, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
Can anyone here help explain how this was approved for wear during encampment?
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483966_501652103194441_170417169_n.jpg)
Likely no one ever considered the issue beyond "Wouldn't it be cool?..."
Looks like he's got stars on the Chiefs, too. Whatever that's supposed to mean...
Prediction:
The photo will drop off Facebook within 24-48 hours.
And / or we'll get a couple of new members whose sole purpose here is to explain to us why that's OK.
Quote from: Cool Mace on July 24, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
Can anyone here help explain how this was approved for wear during encampment?
I'm not trying to flame on the cadet or anything, just wondering...
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3)
You don't need a face book to see it either.
Personally, unless he was an AD MTI, which I highly doubt since he was wearing cadet rank insignia, that kid has absolutely no right to wear that hat. CAP is NOT the Air Force. IMHO he is insulting those that EARNED the RIGHT to wear that hat.
/rant
Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2012, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on July 24, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
Can anyone here help explain how this was approved for wear during encampment?
Likely no one ever considered the issue beyond "Wouldn't it be cool?..."
Looks like he's got stars on the Chiefs, too. Whatever that's supposed to mean...
Prediction:
The photo will drop off Facebook within 24-48 hours.
And / or we'll get a couple of new members who's sole purpose in life is to explained to us why that's OK.
They call him a Command Chief... Here is a quote from one of the other photos.
"Glad to see my tradition of the smoky still being used! Fought long and hard in 2004 to wear it. They wanted to take it away! Where is the whistle there chief!"
I didn't realize whistles were allowed for wear on blues?
Is that a star in the middle of the C/CMSgt insignia?
They aren't.
Insert long ((*sigh*)) here.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2012, 08:36:12 PM
They aren't.
Insert long ((*sigh*)) here.
I should have added sarcasm in there... ;)
How these things pass, will always elude me.
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 24, 2012, 08:34:18 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on July 24, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
Can anyone here help explain how this was approved for wear during encampment?
I'm not trying to flame on the cadet or anything, just wondering...
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.501651983194453.133876.122212387805083&type=3)
You don't need a face book to see it either.
Personally, unless he was an AD MTI, which I highly doubt since he was wearing cadet rank insignia, that kid has absolutely no right to wear that hat. CAP is NOT the Air Force. IMHO he is insulting those that EARNED the RIGHT to wear that hat.
/rant
It's not a right. It's a privilege.
Rights generally cannot be revoked. Privileges can, and that has certainly happened in the case of the DI/MTI hat.
Looks like the 1st Sgt diamond on the C/CMsgt grade
Zoom in - those are stars, which would be in keeping with the "Command Chief" idea. Probably something homemade.
Let's not take this to the "it is insulting" phase.......that is not the point. The point is that NHQ needs to come down on these sort of thing publicly, loudly and definitivly!
On the one hand....I don't really have that much heart burn over encampment staff wearing smokey bear hats.
I got a problem with people deciding that they want to do what they want to do.....and no one in authority doing squat about it.
I know I have argued about "the commander said I could".........and I still stand by that........HAMMER the Commander!
What needs to happen today....is the National CC needs to call the regional command.....and they both need to get on a confernece call with the wing commander and his director of CP and make sure this does not happen again!
It is because NHQ and lower level commanders don't stop these big things....that we get squadron commanders authorising boonie hats, white shoe laces and other petty sillyness.
How can I correct my cadets by saying "no it is not in the regs and I don't have the authority to allow it" when they can turn around and say "but at encampent....the command chief wore a smokey bear hat and had a star on his stripes".
This is what peeves me about uniform violations. Much more then squadron commander X authorising boonies.
You're right. That's not the point. The Wing CC should be having a conference with the Wing DCP and the encampment commander. Rest assured, if someone in our wing decided to do that, they would be looking for a ride home.
Thankfully it's not a genuine AF MTI smokey hat.
Wow. Hope he doesn't yell at me.
Quote from: MSgt Van on July 25, 2012, 01:21:29 AM
Wow. Hope he doesn't yell at me.
Considering the badge in your sig block I think he'd be more worried about you yelling at him.
It has been written, that the great philosopher Lao Tzu ( the founder of Taoism) eventually grew sick at heart of the ways of men and wandered of into the desert to die, in the 6th century, B.C.E. My guess is that he foresaw that hat on that Cadet.
Major Lord
p.s Neither the Air Force or CAP have "Covers".
Quote from: abdsp51 on July 25, 2012, 01:31:55 AM
Quote from: MSgt Van on July 25, 2012, 01:21:29 AM
Wow. Hope he doesn't yell at me.
Considering the badge in your sig block I think he'd be more worried about you yelling at him.
I think the hope was more for the cadet's sake ;)
On-topic though, that has always been my pet-peeve with uniforms since high school with the JROTC programs: people who add their own little "embellishments" to the uniform and then trying to justify it by some local commander's ok, or even worse the offender just saying that "nobody told me not to".
If it is not in the regulation then you can't wear it, even though it doesn't mention it is specifically prohibited. How hard a concept is that?
Although I'm not a fan of the hat at a CAP encampment, I really can't get bent out of shape for it.
From the other pictures, it looked to be a squared away encampment.
To me it shows that every wing does it's own thing for encampment standards and uniforms. I know here in Ca wing folks crunch their ball camps after being at encampment.
I've seen lots of violations of the CAP uniform manual in my years, but that hat takes the cake! The homemade collar insignia is just the icing on that cake.
I just hope this spectacle wasn't at an actual military base... oh wait, it was a... WING ENCAMPMENT?! That sacred week during which an example is set for all the new impressionable cadets to take home to their units? And the example they chose to set was: "if u think up some cool way to bling out ur uniform, u can totally go ahead n do it"
My guess is about 10% of the cadets in attendance go home and immediately start nagging their squadron commander to let them wear a smokey the bear hat when they become their squadron's drill sergeant (oh wait, we don't have them in CAP? well let's just make a new insignia for it...)
I once knew a CAP member who was a former U.S. Army DS.
He would have told that cadet, "GET THAT HAT OFF!"
If some serving and/or former MTI's would have been there...wow.
I would have just said "Cadet, unless you can show me, in writing, where and why you have authorisation to wear that cover, which is not even an issue item for the CAP uniform (it looks like it could be a State Trooper's cover), take it off. If that collar brass has homemade stars on it, take them off and replace them with regulation insignia."
I think that an RAF Air Ranks (flag rank) Officer's "wedge cap" looks mega-cool too, but I have no authority to wear one...therefore, I don't.
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4527699344556846&id=035ea4db111636aa0eae6d16f5bc0571)
I wish terribly that we could wear blue epaulettes with "CAP" embroidery and hard rank again, but we have no authorisation to do so...therefore, I don't.
That was at a Wing Encampment?! What standards do you think they have at Petticoat Junction Cadet Squadron??
Maybe a Pickelhaube for Oktorberfest? >:D
Why is it the cadets fault for all of this? Did he pick a Mass State Trooper hat or the homemade insignia? Think a little bit, he is not coming up with this stuff. He's following orders.
I do know it is a Mass State Trooper hat, I've personally seen both a real Mass State Trooper (many times), and I recognize the silver rope. Here's a Mass State Trooper hat
(http://www.trooperhats.co.uk/trooperhats/massachusettssp1.jpg)
The wing doesn't care that much, even if others do. No one emmulates the standard at their squadron. It's a Mass Wing thing.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
Why is it the cadets fault for all of this? Did he pick a Mass State Trooper hat or the homemade insignia? Think a little bit, he is not coming up with this stuff. He's following orders.
Not really. If you read down, someone posted the facebook comments on his pic, which went something along the lines of "I'm glad someone resurrected my smoky! They wanted to take it away!" which to me implies that a) it was HIS (the commentor's) idea and not universally loved or authorized, and b) someone recognized the illegality of it at some point and tried (unsuccessfully) to get rid of it. And you know what the argument about "he's just following orders" is just bull. No one can order anyone to do anything in CAP with impunity.
The point is, it's not regulations, it's not authorized and someone should have stopped this nonsense when it started. Even back in the 80s when we wore just about whatever we wanted, this kid would have been tied up and tossed in a locker for the duration of the encampment.
To paraphrase John Bender from "The Breakfast Club"..."If he wears that hat, we'll all wear that hat! It'll be anarchy!"
It is not his fault.....even if it was his own idea.
The fault lies with wing and higher leadership for not stopping it in its tracks. It is the fault for NHQ for not enforcing the regulations.
Like I said before.......I got no problem with the smokey bear hat......who cares what USAF MTI's think......IF they were authorised, if the wing commander had the authority to make the exception to the rule.....and they all wore smokey bears to indicate staff.....that's cool.
But they are not authorised, the wing commander does not/should not have the autority to make an exception to the rules, and it just seems only one guy got to wear the stuipid thing.........and there is complete silence from NHQ on this issue.
AND THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED.
It will continue to happen until CAP starts to hammer commanders.
And the insignia for the command chief.........same story......
[rant] And this seques into my other pet peeve.........the eternal Chief Syndrom. I bet that wing (and a lot of other wings) has a bunch of cadets not finishing their Mitchell because they want the "cool" jobs an encampment. Simple fix for this...........you must be an officer to be on encampment staff....period end of story.[/rant]
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
Why is it the cadets fault for all of this?
No, it's 99% the failure of the seniors involved, including those who don't say "knock it off" when they hear about it second hand.
It's 1% the cadet's fault in that someone with that many stripes (who may well be delaying Mitchell to be the CCMSgt) knows better and
chooses to accept the "well no one said no" path.
An encampment should be the absolute tightest, by the book, activity in CAP, with no room for "creativity". For many members it is the only activity they ever attend outside their home squadron, and the only time they get to see the "real" CAP in action. Unfortunately the reality is that encampments,
and most similar-scaled activities, are run as entrenched "islands" with little scrutiny from higher HQ as long as no one is complaining and the columns in the WBP correct to zero. Change is rarely impacted unless there is a new Commander who was not invested in the "olde guarde", and rarely will an
encampment get a new commander who does not come from previous year's top-level staff.
Without the attitude of "Tight and Right, or Not At All
®", not only are the typical stereotypes about CAP not corrected, but the "small stuff" gets exported to the units, along with the attitude of "What's the big deal? It's cool!" Apparently the very clear statement in 39-1 about not wearing grade on ball caps does not apply to encampments, because that's probably the most common of the "small stuff". One t-shirt says "don't sweat the small stuff" and then on the back it says "...and it's all small stuff..." except that a big part of CAP for cadets is paying attention to
small stuff details and regulations. We literally test them on it.
As we stress here, CAP encampments are not BMT - not by design (basic cadet training happens at the squadron in the form of Curry), and certainly not
by execution, but to use the analogy, when a recruit completes BMT in any of the services, he receives a baseline, consistent, "blue sky" presentation of the minimum expectation(s) of the respective service. Once he's graduated, the level of "hard corps*" he experiences will be different depending on his duty, grade, and assignments, but he knows in the back of his mind what the expectations are, and where he's pushing the envelope when he gets "creative".
CAP owes it to itself, the cadets, and the home squadrons to move the pendulum back to the "Tight and Right, or Not At All
®" philosophy. We make a big deal about how encampments will export skills back to the home units, then we allow "creativity" to creep in, then we wonder why nothing changes.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
I do know it is a Mass State Trooper hat...
At least in the photo above the hat fits. There are photos from previous years where the hat is clearly too big, impacting the command bearing of the wearer, and in some the cadet has the
senior hat device improperly placed (in respect to this improper hat). It looks even "better" with BDU's.
It'd be one thing if this was presented to the head cadet NCO ceremonially and it sat on his rack, desk, hung on his wall, etc. - that would be a fun tradition, but to be walking around wearing it means those who are allowing it don't even understand the question, since for starters, an NCO at that level of staff is not going to be doing hands-on direct cadet training like an MTI would, he's just a "manager", though odds are in reality the cadet in that role at this activity is wandering around "spot correcting" his NCOs.
There is an interesting lack of seniors present in the photos, though, which may or may not mean anything.
*Not a typo"Tight and Right, or Not At All®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium. All Rights Reserved. Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!
Quote from: Major Lord on July 25, 2012, 01:40:17 AM
p.s Neither the Air Force or CAP have "Covers".
When I was a new Butterbar, I said "BDU Cap" in reference to headgear, and one of the more senior NCO cadets corrected me in a very respectful but stern tone that "It's called a Cover, sir". I knew it is called a BDU cap in 39-1 and also on the tag of the darned thing, but I was still felling my way around leading cadets as a SM, so I didn't say anything about it.
Entrenched, incorrect traditions will always be around. Wearing the uniform is a powerful thing. To cadets still working their way through maturity, dreams of the acclaim and respect given to those in the elite echelons of the military can create a really strong pull to identity with.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 03:22:33 PM
[rant] And this seques into my other pet peeve.........the eternal Chief Syndrom. I bet that wing (and a lot of other wings) has a bunch of cadets not finishing their Mitchell because they want the "cool" jobs an encampment. Simple fix for this...........you must be an officer to be on encampment staff....period end of story.[/rant]
But...but...what about flight sergeants and other NCO positions? :o
Cover, Cap, Hat.........really? If we are going to demand that we call it what it really is.....then we don't have BDU shirts.....we have Coat, Woodland Camoflage, Extream Weather (IIRC).
Hat, cover, cap, lid, sun blocker......if the message is being transmitted....then why are we argueing somantic?
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 25, 2012, 04:07:32 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 03:22:33 PM
[rant] And this seques into my other pet peeve.........the eternal Chief Syndrom. I bet that wing (and a lot of other wings) has a bunch of cadets not finishing their Mitchell because they want the "cool" jobs an encampment. Simple fix for this...........you must be an officer to be on encampment staff....period end of story.[/rant]
But...but...what about flight sergeants and other NCO positions? :o
You mean Assitant Flight Commanders, Assitant Squadron Commanders and Assitant Logistic Officers, etc? :P >:D
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 03:22:33 PM
[rant] And this seques into my other pet peeve.........the eternal Chief Syndrom. I bet that wing (and a lot of other wings) has a bunch of cadets not finishing their Mitchell because they want the "cool" jobs an encampment. Simple fix for this...........you must be an officer to be on encampment staff....period end of story.[/rant]
Agreed on that. For some reason there seems to be an unspoken (sometimes) dictum that you're no longer "cool" once you've put on a cadet lieutenant's pip.
My first squadron produced a Spaatz, and she sure didn't get that by hovering in the SNCO grades.
The "no-one said no" camp is on the senior side too...given that, I should be allowed to wear this with the G/W uniform:
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4693704116470025&id=4697a8bd85546b0d1d8dc69d4b16d837)
After all, it's grey, and no-one said "no."
There is no requirement for a gray hat with the G/W. Any civilian headgear is authorized.
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 25, 2012, 04:07:32 PM
But...but...what about flight sergeants and other NCO positions?
What about them? Flt Sgts are fine and rarely a problem.
The First Shirt, in many encampments, is a largely ceremonial position that struggles for a real role, and as the #4 in executive staff,
is usually younger and much lower grade then the others.
As noted, far too many cadets artificially delay their move to cadet officer for no other reason then to be able to serve as a First Sgt
at an encampment.
One thing seen a lot is that the First Sergeants tend to be the ones pushing the FMJ stuff the hardest, possibly for no other reason
then they don't have much else to do and they are supposed to be the #1 NCO. Eliminating the position would at least remove a lot of the FMJ nonsense that we see.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 04:12:56 PM
You mean Assitant Flight Commanders, Assitant Squadron Commanders and Assitant Logistic Officers, etc?
Perfect.
In yet another amazing "only on CAP-Talk coincidence," watch for the new National Encampment Guide / Manual / Pamphlet (we're still debating what to call it) to appear in draft form on the NHQ CP website "proving grounds" within the next week or so. It will have guidance that "covers" this kind of thing (pun intended.)
All interested members will be invited to download, review, and comment of the draft document before it appears in final form.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 25, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
There is no requirement for a gray hat with the G/W. Any civilian headgear is authorized.
I don't mean to derail this discussion, but can you show me where that is stated in CAPM 39-1 or in an ICL?
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 25, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
There is no requirement for a gray hat with the G/W. Any civilian headgear is authorized.
So...civilian could be anything without insignia, yes?
And thanks to Jedi Master Ned for coming through as usual.
Quote from: CyBorg on July 25, 2012, 04:34:36 PMSo...civilian could be anything without insignia, yes?
39-1 only says "CAP ball caps are authorized", not "wear whatever you want".
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 04:10:55 PM
Cover, Cap, Hat.........really? If we are going to demand that we call it what it really is.....then we don't have BDU shirts.....we have Coat, Woodland Camoflage, Extream Weather (IIRC).
Hat, cover, cap, lid, sun blocker......if the message is being transmitted....then why are we argueing somantic?
And don't forget our blouses and field scarves! I have noticed the trend for CAP cadets to adopt Marine nomenclature ( Understandably, since the Marine Corp is the finest fighting organization ever assembled by man) BUt if we start calling them "covers", then the next thing you know, we will be swabbing decks instead of sweeping floors, and saying "Aye, Aye" instead of the traditional CAP "Okey Dokey!". I suspect that a lot of this arose from "Full Metal Jacket" which right-thinking people never even recognized, was supposed to be an anti-war film! We just thought it was cool. Every kid in my neighborhood wanted to have the first confirmed-Commie Kill too! ( Althoug killing Commies seems to one out of fashion, since we just elect them to Congress)
I am reminded of the hippy parents who give their kids a toy green wind turbine, or transvestite doll, whereupon, the regular American kid turns the whimpy toy into a gun, by force of his imagination, hormones, and natural inclination as Jr. Men.
In short, I think a lot of these Uniform issues revolve around CAP's search for identity. On one side, we have the "Alan Alda" camp, which wants to promote an estrogen-soaked world view and move CAP the same direction. ( You will know them by their Pony Tails and Greenpeace bumper stickers on their Hybrid cars) versus the natural tendency for young men to join the John Wayne, Arleigh Ermy, Chuck Norris camp, oozing excess testosterone and wishing that CAP was the type of organization that cared about punishing our enemies, and ready to lay their lives on the Altar of freedom. The DI hat ( I loved Jack Webb!) push for ABU's, etc, is an expression of a desire to push CAP outside its Boundaries, while the "Alan Alda" camp suffers our association with USAF, but puts up with it for whatever benefits they enjoy as a member ( Working with good kids, etc.)
We are decades old, but still have growing pains. Remarkable.
Major Lord
p.s. Now that the ACA has gone Army, what has replaced "flotsom on their quarterdeck"?
Quote from: CyBorg on July 25, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 25, 2012, 03:22:33 PM
[rant] And this seques into my other pet peeve.........the eternal Chief Syndrom. I bet that wing (and a lot of other wings) has a bunch of cadets not finishing their Mitchell because they want the "cool" jobs an encampment. Simple fix for this...........you must be an officer to be on encampment staff....period end of story.[/rant]
Agreed on that. For some reason there seems to be an unspoken (somectimes) dictum that you're no longer "cool" once you've put on a cadet lieutenant's pip.
>:D
My first squadron produced a Spaatz, and she sure didn't get that by hovering in the SNCO grades.
The "no-one said no" camp is on the senior side too...given that, I should be allowed to wear this with the G/W uniform:
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?cq=4693704116470025&id=4697a8bd85546b0d1d8dc69d4b16d837)
After all, it's grey, and no-one said "no."
I knew as soon as I saw a funny hat,especially a funny GRAY hat, that it would be Cyborg.
Quote from: ol'fido on July 25, 2012, 05:28:07 PM
I knew as soon as I saw a funny bar,especially a funny GRAY hat, that it would be Cyborg.
Thank you sir...I
do try to tweak the envelope now and then.
But really the silliness comes from the Texas-sized holes in 39-1. The holes are already there. I just walk through them now and again.
Quote from: ßτε on July 25, 2012, 04:32:40 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 25, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
There is no requirement for a gray hat with the G/W. Any civilian headgear is authorized.
I don't mean to derail this discussion, but can you show me where that is stated in CAPM 39-1 or in an ICL?
I was just teasing Cyborg about his gray hat.
/derail
The hat makes an appearance in the 2012 and 2011 encampment photos, though you cannot tell if it is the same cadet from the 2011 encampment. My guessing is that this is something that someone saw one year, then passed down the next year because they thought it was "cool" and no one bothered to put a stop to it.
I've seen photos of uniform combinations by staff at some other encampments that make me go 0_o. Especially since it can be almost hypocritical that the first time cadets who go to encampment are examined and re-examined on if they have the correct uniform items and if they are wearing the uniform correctly.
Quote from: spacecommand on July 25, 2012, 06:36:33 PM
The hat makes an appearance in the 2012 and 2011 encampment photos, though you cannot tell if it is the same cadet from the 2011 encampment. My guessing is that this is something that someone saw one year, then passed down the next year because they thought it was "cool" and no one bothered to put a stop to it.
I've seen photos of uniform combinations by staff at some other encampments that make me go 0_o. Especially since it can be almost hypocritical that the first time cadets who go to encampment are examined and re-examined on if they have the correct uniform items and if they are wearing the uniform correctly.
I agree, it's hard to tell if it's the same cadet for both years. In the 2011 picture I have seen, it appears to be an SM Service Cap emblem attached to the campaign hat. In the 2012 picture (posted earlier), they have switched to a Cadet Service Cap emblem. Which then begs the question, which emblem is the correct emblem? :(
It isn't "
almost" hypocritical, it is hypocritical.
As an aside:
It's Marine Corps, with the 's', forever and always. The singular and plural forms of corps have the same spelling, with the plural being pronounced as 'cores'.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
While a cadet at the level of the guy in the hat should know better the bulk of the fault lies with the seniors who allow it in spite of knowing better and displayed on their FB albums. This is evidenced by wearing hard grade on ball and BDU caps. Seniors wearing AF style uniform who are obviously overweight and cadet basics not wearing grade insignia. And we won't even go into the complete lack of knowledge of the Manual of Arms displayed by the color guard shown in the photo albums on FB and their knowledge of the Manual of the Guidon isn't far behind. This is a leadership failure that starts at the top. They have bigger problems than a funny looking hat.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
That is nothing compared to getting your picture taken, "with your finger on the trigger" in the military or law enforcement. >:D
Like Sun Tzu said, "when you lose, don't lose the lesson".
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 26, 2012, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
That is nothing compared to getting your picture taken, "with your finger on the trigger" in the military or law enforcement. >:D
Like Sun Tzu said, "when you lose, don't lose the lesson".
You're a NCO and an officer asks to take your picture, do you tell him "No sir, I will not take a picture, because I have a Mass State Trooper hat on."? My point is he doesn't have much control on the matter, if he's told to take a picture he will take it.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 26, 2012, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 26, 2012, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
That is nothing compared to getting your picture taken, "with your finger on the trigger" in the military or law enforcement. >:D
Like Sun Tzu said, "when you lose, don't lose the lesson".
You're a NCO and an officer asks to take your picture, do you tell him "No sir, I will not take a picture, because I have a Mass State Trooper hat on."? My point is he doesn't have much control on the matter, if he's told to take a picture he will take it.
You completely missed the point.
You're a SNCO that SHOULD know what hats and insignia are and are not allowed to be worn on the uniform. However, instead of being an example and having integrity in the matter, you wear unauthorized items so you can look hard-kewl.
Quote from: AngelWings on July 26, 2012, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 26, 2012, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on July 25, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Man, some of you are seriously going way too hard on the cadet in the picture.
That is nothing compared to getting your picture taken, "with your finger on the trigger" in the military or law enforcement. >:D
Like Sun Tzu said, "when you lose, don't lose the lesson".
You're a NCO and an officer asks to take your picture, do you tell him "No sir, I will not take a picture, because I have a Mass State Trooper hat on."? My point is he doesn't have much control on the matter, if he's told to take a picture he will take it.
Were you there?
You think we are being hard on the cadet?
No......there are three levels of failure going on.
One.....a C/CMSgt shoudl know better
Two.....WHERE THE HELL IS THE ADULT LEADERSHIP? Yes I can expect "kids" to be all about the cool factor.....heck I think it was pretty cool.....but really.......No cadet you can't be a command chief no matter how cool it is....and no chief you can't wear your smokey bear hat, yes I think they are cool too, but we really just can't do it. It is our freaking job to put a stop to this stuff.
Three.....where is Wing/Region/NHQ? Like I said before......If I were Gen Carr......people would be getting fired over this....not 2b'ed just removed from leadership positions.
I guess I am a member of the Grey/White Brigade as my weight sorta went out of limits a couple years ago. But sitting on a closet shelf is my Stetson from my Cav days, Crossed Sabers, Rank, Wings, and Regimental Crest. 39-1 does not say I can't wear it with the Grey White combo so why not?
Well 39-1 does not say I can, so my choice is to accept that if not specifically authorized, it's not.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on July 26, 2012, 04:04:00 PM39-1 does not say I can't wear it with the Grey White combo so why not?
Well, it's a part from a military uniform, and 39-1 is clear we are not allowed to mix distinctive and military uniform parts.
There's also the issue that the only thing authorized would be a CAP ball cap. So by the letter, your options with the G/W is ball cap or no cap.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 26, 2012, 04:19:46 PM
There's also the issue that the only thing authorized would be a CAP ball cap. So by the letter, your options with the G/W is ball cap or no cap.
There is also the issue that 39-1 does not specify
what kind of ball cap, or even what a "Civil Air Patrol Ball Cap" IS.
I believe the only
prohibition is not to wear rank insignia on it.
Do they just mean the one from Vanguard? (vomitando)
Then there are these that pop up on Evilbay...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Civil-Air-Patrol-CAP-SAR-Search-and-Rescue-Hats-/00/s/NjgwWDU5MA==/$(KGrHqNHJDEE7zHG5I-yBPCKWwompw~~60_12.JPG)
(http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/320946700546_1_0_1.jpg)
...or if you happen to live in FLWG...
(http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/300746266167_1_0_1.jpg)
...or even taking an obsolete CAP patch and fabric-gluing it to a plain "ball cap"....
(http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/360475054097_1_1_1.jpg)
...or even this Royal Australian Air Force utility cap,
worn without insignia...I don't believe 39-1 prohibits
non-US military items.
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mNGJUtmhrqbDlr76a6jbwGg/140.jpg)
And not a grey one in the bunch...now may I have some Grey Poupon?
As you say, some wings have a definition of what a CAP ball cap is, and of course units can request permission to create one.
I just wear a plain dark blue ball cap and call it a day (and not with the G/W's, except when I have to for a specific activity).
I'd wear a flight cap with the G/W's if one was authorized, though.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 26, 2012, 06:00:02 PM
As you say, some wings have a definition of what a CAP ball cap is...
Sometimes different INDIVIDUALS have their own definition...another Texas-sized hole in 39-1.
As well, the interpretation could include "civilian headgear" to mean any kind of hat without identifying military insignia, including foreign, or even a dreaded beret. :o
Sort of on topic but even if it ain't it still burns my butt some...
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?pa_members_hear_from_richardson_tuskegee_airman&show=news&newsID=13936 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?pa_members_hear_from_richardson_tuskegee_airman&show=news&newsID=13936)
Take a look at the cadet holding the other end of the banner.
39-1! 39-1! 39-1! RTFM RTFM RTFM!!!
I understand the cadets wanting to wear a uniform to fit in but...
IT MUST BE COMPLETE!!! Especially if you are submitting a photo of said cadet to a National publication!
Or he's got a shoe waiver.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2012, 11:43:43 PM
Or he's got a shoe waiver.
Even so, I wouldn't have put him in front. Not knowing why, I jump to the illogical conclusion that someone thought it was a good idea. There's a photo out there somewhere of a bunch of our cadets, probably on our FaceBook page, and quite a few have their rank insignia on wrong.
Sorry, uniform wear is my hobby horse. It was, literally, beat into my psyche as a cadet.
I too think that he just doesn't have boots yet and a good PAO type would exercise a little SA.....but really........a bootless cadet is way way way down on my list of things uniform to get upset about.