Recently, on another forum, I made a post on an issue of which I was mistaken. It involved ground team badges. Now, before I begin, let me say that I am no God among men. I am subject to the same human fallacy as that we all are and...in keeping with that...will from time to time err.
This is a situation that happens. I learned long ago that I could do two things 1) be frustrated by the human tend to demand prefection from everyone when we are incapable of giving it and 2) learn to take responsibility for my mistakes in actions and words.
In that I have chosen the latter, I begin with this question.
Why not, when someone is mistaken, use the Personal Message feature (PM) to address the issue rather than resort to the theatrics of a flaming?
We have many newbies or sometimes even cadets that lack information on basic topics. They come to places like this for understanding or to better understand. Yet, because of a very unbecoming trend we sometimes display, we seem to have a need to metaphorically "spit in their face."
Be it the "we talked about it before, use the search function, dolt!" line, the "you misspelled something, dummy!" routine, the "don't you read the regs, you imbecile" banter or the basic "your an idiot" type post.
Fact is, very few people here have the regs committed to memory, even fewer are perfect and less than one of those that are perfect at times are prefect all the time.
So...what's it to be? Let me know...it if is the path of understanding be it that we draw people here in droves. Be it flaming and one-upery and I will no longer feel confortable referring people to this once useful tool.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 10, 2007, 07:02:46 PM
Why not, when someone is mistaken, use the Personal Message feature (PM) to address the issue rather than resort to the theatrics of a flaming?
An excellent suggestion, Major, one we should all take to heart.
For the sake of accuracy, however, the original poster needs to post the correction of the erroneous material (e.g., "Someone was good enough to point out to me that....")
I should very much like to offer my apologies to Robert Hartigan and others who I have been guilty of jumping to radical conclusions and being "quite boorish."
I am a creature of growth and request of my associates in the Civil Air Patrol to extend to me a private notice if I should ever offend. The sad thing about being an idiot from time to time is that the one being an idiot never knows their condition until it is pointed out. I ask that of you all.
Again, I apologize more sincerely.
Major Jose Ely Carrales, CAP
If we don't publically post when we think somebody is wrong, we will have a very long series of one post threads..... ;D
Quote from: RiverAux on February 11, 2007, 01:27:04 AM
If we don't publically post when we think somebody is wrong, we will have a very long series of one post threads..... ;D
Noted, but we can be civil. I want to be civil. ;)
My general procedure is to use a PM in the beginning, in hopes that they will respond on the forum and clean up their mess. Should that be ineffective, I have no problem with bring it up again right in the forum.
Major, you mean we just can't take you out back and shoot you?
Where's the fun?
;)
Oh the humanity!
Accepted, thank you.
Brothers and sisters of CAP. When someone is wrong, we should talk to them privately and with compassion. There is no need to jump on someone just because they made a mistake. As officiers, we need to be professional in our dealings in public and in private.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 11, 2007, 01:38:56 AM
Noted, but we can be civil. I want to be civil. ;)
Ah, the "Civil" Air Patrol :)
You know, why not take this a little further...beyond the board...
When someone is mistaken or off base, What should a CAP officer do?
Does this differ if dealing with a Senior Officer vs a Cadet?
Quote from: Spogden on February 12, 2007, 03:07:39 PM
You know, why not take this a little further...beyond the board...
When someone is mistaken or off base, What should a CAP officer do?
Does this differ if dealing with a Senior Officer vs a Cadet?
I say this thus because I am a CAP Officer and can only speak for my own station in the Civil Air Patrol. Civility is, however, not merely the duty of an officer as it is as that of a citizen.
I feel that someone should point out the error as soon as possible and with all professionalism, which eliminates the nastiness. If it is not pointed out, someone else may think the error is correct and will pass on the incorrect knowledge as fact. We need to keep this Board as simple and comfortable to use as possible. I will sometimes ask my buddy or wife (whichever is sitting next to me) how to spell something rather than look it up. I may have done the same thing on this board instead of trying to find something in the Reg's. Is this truly a sin?? I figure we are all here to help each other and share information. If not, we can all shut down our computers and get out our Reg's and look everything up. There was recently a question about having a CAP activity involving cadets and flinging questionable flying objects off of piers. Now obviously, someone could look in the Reg's, but the post led to some interesting and funny comments and someone finally listed the reg. No harm done and an interesting diversion from my long work day. Let's all play nice and remember, we are all brothers in the same organization. as usual, jmho.
As a minor issue - if you aren't sure how to spell a word and the spell checker doesn't, put a question mark in parenthesis behind the word - Supercalifragilisticexpialadosous(?). You can do the same thing if you aren't sure you are using the right word as well.
It seems to me, in my experience, that the form of communication with the most trouble associated and most likely to be understood is e-communication such as this. It's much easier (again, in my opinion) for offense to be taken with e-communication because you don't "hear" the tone behind the words, or "see" the body language of the speaker/writer.
I think that it would be a good general policy to have corrections offered in personal messages and phone conversations, then in a public forum such as this.
Strongly held opinions are understandable...challenging others for the sake of clarity and common ground is understandable. I would hope that we can self-moderate enough that we never lose sight of how we our words might be interpreted. It seems to me (again, my opinion) that if we say things with out regard to how they may be interpreted, we are being irresponsible posters. I would invite anyone and everyone who views my postings as offensive would contact me and tell me.
There are some that come just to incite criticism and be an antagonist. Maybe there should be a thread just for the flamers, or this be allowed solely in "The Lobby". Then strict enforcement with a degree of protocol in the remaining?
You don't hear the tone, and the written word is generally given more weight than it may deserve.
My suggestion, not that I follow this all the time,
Only correct if you can quote chapter and verse of the reg.
Don't argue opinion.
Bump.
Please do not bump old topics unless you have something relevant to add or ask.
I figured that remind many new, and some older residents of this forum- including myself of that when we make mistakes, that we should own up to them and move on. I also believe that the point made earlier in the thread are just as valid- if not more so- now when there is a wider population than before. I believe that this thread makes very good points about professional conduct that enhances this forum.
I have been involved in a pretty heated back and forth on this site, and looking back it was pretty silly. The thread got locked, etc. The other person and I PM'd each other and basically said "Wow....truce?" and both agreed we should have never let it get out of hand as it did. Discussions are one thing, but your right, many of us know each other, many of us have our names and units on our signatures. Also, we are an example cadets and future members who come here.
I believe also, that as Officers, any "arguments" should you have them, should ever "knowingly" involve cadets vs Officer. I had a few discussions where someone blatantly attacked me for being a law enforcement officer and said that all cops believed they were better than everybody else. Come to find out this was a 15 year old cadet who was hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. One of his buddies dimed him out to me. People tend to get very bold when they are 1000 miles apart.
I have been to a few unmoderated sites, and they are completely useless.
If someone lists incorrect material, for the sake of clarity (and not misinforming the less experienced), a simple reference to the regulation concerned, or a plain statement of facts (without attacking the original) may be needed.
beyond that, discussion or disagreement that becomes heated should be moved to PM.
It seems this thread still has some life to it after all.
Much of the theatrical displays that once dominated the CAP forums have been a bit tempered lately. However, knowing how to deal with an "issue" between CAP Threadsters is as important, at least, as the greater issue's subject itself.
Fact is, for lack of a truly OFFICIAL CAP forum, this is among three sites outsiders find when searching for CAP materials. When we act like fools simply to "one up" someone we may not know infront of the largest CAP on line communities more damage is made than anticipated.
Professionalism is more than just a cool buzz word. We can all be wrong, many have come to fess up to their mistakes and appolize. Please, resist the urge to "DOGPILE" on people...we have PM and regular e-mail.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 23, 2008, 06:44:06 AM
It seems this thread still has some life to it after all.
Much of the theatrical displays that once dominated the CAP forums have been a bit tempered lately. However, knowing how to deal with an "issue" between CAP Threadsters is as important, at least, as the greater issue's subject itself.
I agree, sir. I used to be terrible at letting my emotions get the better of me when posting. I would act in ways I'd never dare to in public, and that has led some forum members to automatically assume I will forever be a troll who posts only to cause debate and stir the pot. Because of that, I'm now in the process of rebuilding my reputation on this site. I am very open about this, because the first step in solving a problem is recognizing it exists.
You see, one big problem is that written communication only conveys about 15% of the whole picture. The other 85% of communication (nonverbal) is hidden and it is very difficult to see someone's intentions if you can't see their body language.
One of the reasons why meeting people online and developing friendships with them is not as effective as meeting them and being friends with them in person is that a huge chunk of communication is absent, and it is impossible to define relationships without having met the other person face-to-face. That's interpersonal communication 101.
So what we have here is a forum largely made up of folks who have undefined relationships with people they've never met, and have the expectation of conveying full communication with each other when really only 15% is present. I am writing a paper on this right now.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 23, 2008, 06:44:06 AMFact is, for lack of a truly OFFICIAL CAP forum, this is among three sites outsiders find when searching for CAP materials. When we act like fools simply to "one up" someone we may not know infront of the largest CAP on line communities more damage is made than anticipated.
I agree. I just got "one upped" by someone on this site in another thread, and it served absolutely no constructive purpose. Fortunately, it came after the initial question was answered so the likelihood of the mean-spirited and unsubstantiated comment directed toward me turning into a thread derailment is unlikely.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 23, 2008, 06:44:06 AMProfessionalism is more than just a cool buzz word. We can all be wrong, many have come to fess up to their mistakes and appolize. Please, resist the urge to "DOGPILE" on people...we have PM and regular e-mail.
Yes, but some people don't want to use PM or e-mail. They would rather trash other people's reputations in front of everyone else just for gratification. I know their mindset and believe me, they are in it for themselves. They also don't have very high self-esteem, either.
If someone is mistaken then they should clearly be called out publically humilated and mocked until they're huddled in a corner like a small child calling for their mommy. But maybe that's just me. >:D ;D
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 23, 2008, 06:44:06 AMFact is, for lack of a truly OFFICIAL CAP forum...
And that might soon change depending on how the NCAC does things.
My policy depends on the error.
For a typo, if available, I PM or e-mail the writer.
If it's an urban myth, I usually post a reply beginning with, "I checked this out on Snopes and found . . ." I feel this type reply is the best way to quash rumor without belittling the poster.
For regulation issues, I check the regs and post a , "My interpretation of . . ." reply. This places the discussion in more of a debate on interpretation rather than a, "You're Wrong!" type situation.
I respond to other types of misinformation similarly, based on the specific situation.
On several forums my method has turned a budding flame-fest into a lively and informative discussion.
Although I am not as regular a visitor to this forum as I would like, I have noticed that, for the most part, forum members are polite and non-judgemental in their replies.
As Major C- pointed out
Noted, but we can be civil. I want to be civil.
We may not always agree and we should not always agree. If we always agree, or act like we always agree, people with better ideas are failing to teach and others are failing to learn. One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different. If we care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil – after all, it's in our name. Public discussions and discussions when cadets are present will be calm.