I have several thousand targets under my belt with the NRA because I'm on a shooting team. Can I go ahead and order the qual badge or do I need to have my targets approved first?
You can order the badge all you want.....you can't wear it.
The NRA badge listed in 39-1 does not exist anymore.
+1 - not to mention that the badge that was approved required a specific qualification, not just a history or shooting.
The "thousands of targets" Skeeter is talking about is NRA program that replaced the youth shooting.
You save your targets after the shoot.....as you move up in the program you have to show "x number of targets with 10 shots in 8 ring or better".
Not just "I've been shooting my whole life I think I get me a marksmans medal"
I shoot on a shotgun team ie. clay targets. The targets I am talking about are all registered so I can go back in the history of competitions and have a record of my targets. I have competed in state competitions and even won them so I don't have "just a history of shooting", I have an actual record of targets. What I want to know is if I can get any kind medal for shooting with the NRA? And, where would I find the info about it..I've had a hard time finding it?
Understood, but that's not the way the CAP / NRA badges were awarded.
There are currently no approved cadet shooting / NRA medals for wear on the CAP uniform.
At one time CAP had a "NRA"marksmenship badge. It's been obsolete for at least a decade.
Ok, thanks for the help
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 06, 2012, 08:17:24 PM
At one time CAP had a "NRA"marksmenship badge. It's been obsolete for at least a decade.
Doesn't stop anyone from wearing them though. I constantly see them in the magazine, on Spaatz recipients, etc.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on June 06, 2012, 09:58:27 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 06, 2012, 08:17:24 PM
At one time CAP had a "NRA"marksmenship badge. It's been obsolete for at least a decade.
Doesn't stop anyone from wearing them though. I constantly see them in the magazine, on Spaatz recipients, etc.
IIRC, a unit near me still "issues" the surplus ones they've got, apparently...
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
The "consistent/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy" is a byproduct of knowing how to shoot.
IMHO, target shooting has three components for success - gun safety, sight alignment, and trigger control. What else is there to knowing how to shoot, within that context, in your opinion?
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
Ah no. Competition shooting sees how well you can apply all the fundamentals with added stress of adrenaline and time for accuracy. If you do not know how to shoot competitions will do nothing for you, and most competitions you need to display a certain level of competence to enter. Having participated in competitions and plenty of time on the range they are different spectrums.
Not to thread jack but to go slightly off subject, I dont wear my EIC Badges due to the amount of "you cant wear those" that would be inevitable. I do have a friend that might be joining that has earned EIC Badges from the USMC. The regs state that the USAF Dist Rifle and Pistol Badges may be worn, and silver, bronze and EIC badges. My opinion is that he would be within regs to wear USMC EIC badges as the regs do not specify branch specific. Can any one offer opposition and why?
Quote from: CAPM 39-1CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear
on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for
service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military
badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any
badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification.
I don't see any provision in AFI36-2903 for wear of other service EIC badges, since the awarding authority for the authorized EIC badges is HQ AFSVA, and there is no mention of the gold level badges authorized by the other services.
The AF EIC badges are specifically mentioned in CAPM 39-1.
Admittedly, both regs are vague at best.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2012, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
The "consistent/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy" is a byproduct of knowing how to shoot.
IMHO, target shooting has three components for success - gun safety, sight alignment, and trigger control. What else is there to knowing how to shoot, within that context, in your opinion?
breathe and heart control. How to align your body so you have a stable platform.
Ideally all you should see is the end sight move slightly every few seconds (heart rate) and time your shot.
But that is for precision shooting (level above normal competitions). Precision air rifles are like 5,000 on up.
Competition shooting teaches you proper form. Any yahoo with half a mind can understand gun safety, trigger control, and to line up his target in the sight. You could get reasonably on target with some consistency without understanding how to stand, kneel, or lay prone. Or how to stop breathing, rather than hold your breathe.
It is about a stable shooting platform.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 05:29:42 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2012, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
The "consistent/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy" is a byproduct of knowing how to shoot.
IMHO, target shooting has three components for success - gun safety, sight alignment, and trigger control. What else is there to knowing how to shoot, within that context, in your opinion?
breathe and heart control. How to align your body so you have a stable platform.
Ideally all you should see is the end sight move slightly every few seconds (heart rate) and time your shot.
But that is for precision shooting (level above normal competitions). Precision air rifles are like 5,000 on up.
Competition shooting teaches you proper form. Any yahoo with half a mind can understand gun safety, trigger control, and to line up his target in the sight. You could get reasonably on target with some consistency without understanding how to stand, kneel, or lay prone. Or how to stop breathing, rather than hold your breathe.
It is about a stable shooting platform.
Heart rate has nothing to do with with accuracy what so ever. Accuracy is based on breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze that movement you see is related to breathing and involuntary muscle movements/muscle fatigue. If you do not have a solid platform prior to competitions you will fail, competition does not teach proper form or platforms. Competition shooting teaches if anything muscle memory and refinement not the basics.
Not sure if this is the same badge, but this is straight from the CAP News Site.
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101)
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 07, 2012, 06:54:51 AM
Not sure if this is the same badge, but this is straight from the CAP News Site.
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101)
Yep - no one said you can't earn the current NRA badges. You just can't wear them on the CAP uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 07, 2012, 07:46:43 AM
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 07, 2012, 06:54:51 AM
Not sure if this is the same badge, but this is straight from the CAP News Site.
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news/?sc_cadets_earn_nra_markmanship_badges&show=news&newsID=13101)
Yep - no one said you can't earn the current NRA badges. You just can't wear them on the CAP uniform.
Roger that.
Interesting link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badge_(United_States) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badge_(United_States))
I was actually the Team Captain for ten years on the pistol team. I have indiviually, one regional and five state championships and numerous team awards. When Fort Knox is short on gold, they give me a call. 8)
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 07, 2012, 05:45:14 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 05:29:42 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2012, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 07, 2012, 03:24:50 AM
Chances are most cadets can't shoot in competitions (Obviously not true for skeeter). Competition shooting is way different than "shooting with dad" or whatever cadet snuffy wants to say to get a Marksmanship badge.
Ahhhh no....and the new NRA program does not require shooting in competition....it just requires that you show consistant/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy.
Well thats dumb. Competition shooting actually teaches you how to shoot.
The "consistent/repetitive ability to shoot to a certain accuracy" is a byproduct of knowing how to shoot.
IMHO, target shooting has three components for success - gun safety, sight alignment, and trigger control. What else is there to knowing how to shoot, within that context, in your opinion?
breathe and heart control. How to align your body so you have a stable platform.
Ideally all you should see is the end sight move slightly every few seconds (heart rate) and time your shot.
But that is for precision shooting (level above normal competitions). Precision air rifles are like 5,000 on up.
Competition shooting teaches you proper form. Any yahoo with half a mind can understand gun safety, trigger control, and to line up his target in the sight. You could get reasonably on target with some consistency without understanding how to stand, kneel, or lay prone. Or how to stop breathing, rather than hold your breathe.
It is about a stable shooting platform.
Heart rate has nothing to do with with accuracy what so ever. Accuracy is based on breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze that movement you see is related to breathing and involuntary muscle movements/muscle fatigue. If you do not have a solid platform prior to competitions you will fail, competition does not teach proper form or platforms. Competition shooting teaches if anything muscle memory and refinement not the basics.
"Rifle marksmanship clinics are known as "Appleseeds." These clinics are run over a period of two days and take shooters from the basics of firing a shot to more complex courses of fire from several shooting positions. Project Appleseed uses United States Army techniques to teach its participants the skills of becoming a rifleman: a "marksman capable of hitting a man-sized target from 500 yards away."[4]
Two elements are fundamental to Appleseed rifle clinics: the Six Steps to Firing a Shot and natural point of aim (NPOA). The Six Steps to Firing a shot as taught by the Appleseed Project are:
1. Sight alignment: Alignment of the front and rear sights.
2. Sight picture: Bringing the aligned sights onto the target.
3. Respiratory pause: A person's natural breathing raises and lowers the rifle. When one achieves a perfect sight picture while exhaling, one must hold her/his breath to remain on target.
4. Focus
a. Focus the eyes on the front sight
b. Focus the mind on keeping the front sight on the target
5. Squeeze the trigger: Steadily squeeze the trigger. Do not jerk the trigger, but squeeze.
6. Follow through: There are two important facets to following through. First, one must take a mental snapshot of where the sights were when the shot was fired so that the shooter can have instant feedback and can call the shot to know where it impacted the target. Second, one must hold the trigger back for a moment and then release it slowly to prepare for the next shot. [5]
Natural point of aim is a firing technique that does not rely on the shooter's muscles to aim the rifle. Using a sling, a relaxed body, and the NPOA technique, the rifleman can consistently shoot 4 MOA groups at 500 yards."
www.appleseedinfo.org (http://www.appleseedinfo.org)
Project Appleseed is geared towards beginning shooters. i have seen kids on the line as young as 8. This would IMHO be a great activity for CAP to embrace with its emphasis on safety, history, and civic responsibility and service. Not a lot of bling(no badges). They do issue a Rifleman patch to those that score 210 or above on the AQT. Also, basic .22 LR rifles are the preferred rifle of choice.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 07, 2012, 07:46:43 AM
Yep - no one said you can't earn the current NRA badges. You just can't wear them on the CAP uniform.
+1
Horse!.....hey horse!......hmm.....must be dead.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on June 08, 2012, 12:58:33 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 07, 2012, 07:46:43 AM
Yep - no one said you can't earn the current NRA badges. You just can't wear them on the CAP uniform.
+1
Horse!.....hey horse!......hmm.....must be dead.
Apparently not. Still keeps happening.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2012, 04:44:50 AM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear
on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for
service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military
badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any
badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification.
I don't see any provision in AFI36-2903 for wear of other service EIC badges, since the awarding authority for the authorized EIC badges is HQ AFSVA, and there is no mention of the gold level badges authorized by the other services.
The AF EIC badges are specifically mentioned in CAPM 39-1.
Admittedly, both regs are vague at best.
39-1 table 6-5 showing auth military (note not USAF, but all military) badges on CAP uniform, lists AF Distinguished Rifle and Pistol; but then when listing the EIC and Distinguished International Shooter badges, does not list them as USAF specific.
I say he is good to go with USMC EIC badges. 39-1 says EIC badges are good to go, and does not specify which service. If anyone takes an issue with it they can deal with the MGySgt. themselves ;)
Quote from: GroundHawg on June 09, 2012, 08:09:31 PMIf anyone takes an issue with it they can deal with the MGySgt. themselves ;)
Or with the Gunner 8)
Quote from: GroundHawg on June 09, 2012, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2012, 04:44:50 AM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear
on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for
service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military
badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any
badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification.
I don't see any provision in AFI36-2903 for wear of other service EIC badges, since the awarding authority for the authorized EIC badges is HQ AFSVA, and there is no mention of the gold level badges authorized by the other services.
The AF EIC badges are specifically mentioned in CAPM 39-1.
Admittedly, both regs are vague at best.
39-1 table 6-5 showing auth military (note not USAF, but all military) badges on CAP uniform, lists AF Distinguished Rifle and Pistol; but then when listing the EIC and Distinguished International Shooter badges, does not list them as USAF specific.
I say he is good to go with USMC EIC badges. 39-1 says EIC badges are good to go, and does not specify which service. If anyone takes an issue with it they can deal with the MGySgt. themselves ;)
I would do as the 39-1 directs and call National HQ about this. If they approve then he can wear it plus he'll have a piece of paper from them to wave at the Uniform "experts".
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Yes, but
that badge is no longer offered, as the program has changed to new criteria and a new badge. It is a different badge than what is described by the regs. It cannot be worn.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 25, 2012, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Yes, but that badge is no longer offered, as the program has changed to new criteria and a new badge. It is a different badge than what is described by the regs. It cannot be worn.
How so? Reference?
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 25, 2012, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Yes, but that badge is no longer offered, as the program has changed to new criteria and a new badge. It is a different badge than what is described by the regs. It cannot be worn.
How so? Reference?
Search and read all the NRA threads, just about all of them reference the cite.
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 25, 2012, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Yes, but that badge is no longer offered, as the program has changed to new criteria and a new badge. It is a different badge than what is described by the regs. It cannot be worn.
How so? Reference?
The nitpickers on here are of the opinion that since the NRA brought on sponsorship of their Jr. Marksmanship program and renamed it the NRA Winchester Jr. Marksmanship Badge, that it is no longer allowed to be worn on a CAP uniform as our regs have not changed the verbage as of yet.
I say, as well as knowledgebase, and our national commander, that the intent of the regulation has not changed and the badges should be worn. I think that punishing Cadet morale because the NRA is offsetting their costs through a marketing sponsorship is petty at best.
There are the regs, and what people say.
Which counts?
Nothing we currently have approved meets the definition of any current program. NHQ can fix it with a memo, yet they haven't.
Ergo.
Quote from: GroundHawg on September 25, 2012, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 25, 2012, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Earlier posts indicating that the NRA badge is not authorized appear to be incorrect.
Look at 39-1, table 6-2, Item 11. The NRA badge is listed along with description of it's location for wear.
Yes, but that badge is no longer offered, as the program has changed to new criteria and a new badge. It is a different badge than what is described by the regs. It cannot be worn.
How so? Reference?
The nitpickers on here are of the opinion that since the NRA brought on sponsorship of their Jr. Marksmanship program and renamed it the NRA Winchester Jr. Marksmanship Badge, that it is no longer allowed to be worn on a CAP uniform as our regs have not changed the verbage as of yet.
I say, as well as knowledgebase, and our national commander, that the intent of the regulation has not changed and the badges should be worn. I think that punishing Cadet morale because the NRA is offsetting their costs through a marketing sponsorship is petty at best.
While I agree there may be some semantics here, I disagree that this issue is addressed or in any way clarified through Knowledgebase or any documents/letters from our National Commander.
Also, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship program does not have the word "Junior" in it, nor do any of their awards/badges:
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on June 07, 2012, 02:06:30 AMIIRC, a unit near me still "issues" the surplus ones they've got, apparently...
... surplus, meaning the old badge for the old program that is no longer offered?
As for those who are of the opinion that NHQ says the regulation still applies, that's curious. Considering Ned's acknowledged it needs updating to cover the currently offered programs.
Whatever, go right on. But not in my unit, and if I see cadets wearing it, unless they are really old cadets, I'm going to say something through their chain of command about it. Be it chain of command of the event/activity, or their home unit, which ever applies.
The Winchester name change is recent.
The Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge no longer exists. All shooters follow the same qualification program. The current medal(s) don't have the Junior on them. There are 5 medals (Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Distinguished Expert).
The rating of Marksman First Class is designated by a bar added to the Marksman medal. The bars (1 to 9) for Sharpshooter and the firearm type (Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun) for Distinguished Expert are similar.
Personally I'd make the rules that:
You wear the highest medal you've earned.
You can wear 1 bar on the Sharpshooter medal (highest bar earned) and any of the DE bars you earned.
Add this to CAPR 39-3, change CAPM 39-1 to refer to 39-3 and it's all good.
Quote from: phirons on September 25, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
The Winchester name change is recent.
The Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge no longer exists. All shooters follow the same qualification program. The current medal(s) don't have the Junior on them. There are 5 medals (Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Distinguished Expert).
The rating of Marksman First Class is designated by a bar added to the Marksman medal. The bars (1 to 9) for Sharpshooter and the firearm type (Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun) for Distinguished Expert are similar.
Personally I'd make the rules that:
You wear the highest medal you've earned.
You can wear 1 bar on the Sharpshooter medal (highest bar earned) and any of the DE bars you earned.
Add this to CAPR 39-3, change CAPM 39-1 to refer to 39-3 and it's all good.
So, that's a proposal but not an existing authorization/regulation.
I don't have the background on the program but what you propose makes sense. I think the issue is that someone needs to bring this to National. I saw in a previous thread that Ned offered to assist in moving a change forward but I didn't see anyone actually offer to take him up on it.
Quote from: phirons on September 25, 2012, 04:49:07 PMThe Winchester name change is recent.
2005.. could be recent, if you look on an the same scale as Global Warming ;)
Put simply, it's not the same badge, it's not the same program, and it can not be worn. Ned Lee has even backed this up. Curiously, the KB article saying similar things appears to not be findable during a search for NRA, marksmanship, etc.
The regulation for it is being re-written, changes have been submitted. There's nothing to cite, except that I have seen the suggested proposed changes to make it work again. I would figure they have a lot of other more pressing regulations to revise too.
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 04:59:34 PMI saw in a previous thread that Ned offered to assist in moving a change forward but I didn't see anyone actually offer to take him up on it.
..which is what I spoke of in the previous reply. It's been done.
Quote from: a2capt on September 25, 2012, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: A.Member on September 25, 2012, 04:59:34 PMI saw in a previous thread that Ned offered to assist in moving a change forward but I didn't see anyone actually offer to take him up on it.
..which is what I spoke of in the previous reply. It's been done.
Great!
We are on it. I promise you it is on our list of "things to do" at NHQ. You don't need to hear our problems (down two CP full-timers in the NHQ shop, end of the busy summer season with reports and budgets to close out, the distraction of the NB meeting with associated learning labs, new encampment guidance we are trying to get ready for some test runs at winter encampments, etc), but we are actively working the issue after getting some great help from knowledgeable CT members.
CT is making a difference. Thank you.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast
E-mail just forwarded on this evening:
Quote from: Susie Parker, NHQ
Subject: RE: NRA Badge
Curt Lafond asked that I respond to your email. While we realize the Junior NRA badge referenced in the uniform manual is now obsolete, the intent of authorizing the wear of the badge was to recognize some type of standardized marksmanship training for cadets. An NRA badge is still authorized for wear by CAP cadets today--it's just not a junior badge now.
If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.
SUSAN P. PARKER
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-5937
Phone: 877-227-9142 extension 212
FAX: 334-953-4262
Quote from: A.Member on October 10, 2012, 05:27:51 AM
E-mail just forwarded on this evening:
Quote from: Susie Parker, NHQ
Subject: RE: NRA Badge
Curt Lafond asked that I respond to your email. While we realize the Junior NRA badge referenced in the uniform manual is now obsolete, the intent of authorizing the wear of the badge was to recognize some type of standardized marksmanship training for cadets. An NRA badge is still authorized for wear by CAP cadets today--it's just not a junior badge now.
If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.
SUSAN P. PARKER
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-5937
Phone: 877-227-9142 extension 212
FAX: 334-953-4262
This maybe????
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on October 10, 2012, 06:53:24 AM
Quote from: A.Member on October 10, 2012, 05:27:51 AM
E-mail just forwarded on this evening:
Quote from: Susie Parker, NHQ
Subject: RE: NRA Badge
Curt Lafond asked that I respond to your email. While we realize the Junior NRA badge referenced in the uniform manual is now obsolete, the intent of authorizing the wear of the badge was to recognize some type of standardized marksmanship training for cadets. An NRA badge is still authorized for wear by CAP cadets today--it's just not a junior badge now.
If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.
SUSAN P. PARKER
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-5937
Phone: 877-227-9142 extension 212
FAX: 334-953-4262
This maybe???? http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars
Follow up e-mail from NHQ confirms the badges listed in the NRA link you posted are authorized.
They indicate they're in the middle of revising 39-1 (that old song....how long has it been and when will it be complete?). I certainly hope they add a lot more clarification to the wear of the badge than simply removing the word "junior".
Maybe they'll authorize it for seniors too, since there is an NRA adult marksmanship program...
Why do they even authorize NRA badges? It seems rather useless to identify someone as a good shooter.
Quote from: AngelWings on October 11, 2012, 01:15:56 AM
Why do they even authorize NRA badges? It seems rather useless to identify someone as a good shooter.
Obviously, you kill them first. >:D
Wouldn't it be easier to do a CAP specific badge/ribbon, etc, and dictate what needs to be done to earn it?
Quote from: A.Member on October 10, 2012, 05:27:51 AME-mail just forwarded on this evening:
This will have the same issues as the berets did... there are squadron commanders out there that only follow what's written down in the regs. A couple of years ago, a beret-lover brought an email from Ms. Parker to a meeting to show the SQ/CC that berets were authorized. His response was, "She ain't in my chain of command."
Said member is of course happier now with the recent ICL.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 11, 2012, 01:38:16 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to do a CAP specific badge/ribbon, etc, and dictate what needs to be done to earn it?
Already sent in.
Quote from: Fubar on October 11, 2012, 01:46:45 AM
Quote from: A.Member on October 10, 2012, 05:27:51 AME-mail just forwarded on this evening:
This will have the same issues as the berets did... there are squadron commanders out there that only follow what's written down in the regs. A couple of years ago, a beret-lover brought an email from Ms. Parker to a meeting to show the SQ/CC that berets were authorized. His response was, "She ain't in my chain of command."
And that's a correct response - this isn't how we change regs.
Why doesn't Ned take this issue back to Ms Parker?
Or another one of those National Board biggies that are reading this resource.
Information as misleading as quoted
Quote...NRA badge is still authorized for wear by CAP cadets today--it's just not a junior badge now.
Which CAP publication or ICL authorized that wear?
None!Which CAP publication or ICL stated it is not a junior badge?
None!Take care,
Flyer
1. Once again we see certain persons at NHQ render personal decisions as to what our regs actually do or do not say.
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
Quote from: capmaj on October 11, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
It's not a necessity. It's a fun and optional program that, when done properly, is exceptionally safe. It's comparable to the model rocketry program or a familiarization NCSA; it gives Cadets exposure to something with which they may not interact in their every-day lives.
Quote from: capmaj on October 11, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
Using that rationale then the Air Force should do away with the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon.
Since the vast majority of Air Force members are not armed while on duty...
Given that there are 4 different NRA badges, and that they can be earned in a variety of shooting disciplines, allowing cadets to wear "an NRA badge" means we can/will/do see any number of things hanging on a cadet's uniform with no clear cut uniformity or standardization. Some badges are easier to earn than others. Can a cadet wear a bage for shotgun? Pistol? Air rifle? Small caliber rifle? High caliber rifle?
Quote from: PHall on October 11, 2012, 05:06:59 AM
Quote from: capmaj on October 11, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
Using that rationale then the Air Force should do away with the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon.
Since the vast majority of Air Force members are not armed while on duty...
They're trained to and can be authorized to use guns. CAP, not so much.
Quote from: PHall on October 11, 2012, 05:06:59 AM
Quote from: capmaj on October 11, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
Using that rationale then the Air Force should do away with the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon.
Since the vast majority of Air Force members are not armed while on duty...
USAF = combatant service
CAP = non-combatant service
With that said firearms safety is a life-skill that falls nicely within our mission to build better citizens.
Or maybe we can have the cadets shooting looters after a disaster. ;D
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Hurricane_Ike_Bridge_City_TX_You_Loot_We_Shoot.jpg/800px-Hurricane_Ike_Bridge_City_TX_You_Loot_We_Shoot.jpg)
IS that a Dexter picture on the trash?
Quote from: AngelWings on October 11, 2012, 10:50:32 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 11, 2012, 05:06:59 AM
Quote from: capmaj on October 11, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
2. And I also ask what is the necessity for either Cadets or Seniors to wear a shooting badge, given CAPS position on the carrying of firearms while performing CAP functions.
Using that rationale then the Air Force should do away with the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon.
Since the vast majority of Air Force members are not armed while on duty...
They're trained to and can be authorized to use guns. CAP, not so much.
You haven't had Air Force markmanship
training familiarization, have you? It's a one day course.
Quote from: PHall on October 12, 2012, 01:55:43 AM
You haven't had Air Force firearms markmanship training familiarization, have you? It's a one day course.
1 day barely gets you past "Don't point the end with the hole at your face or at your buddy's face."
I'm not sure about the program be obsolete for over a decade because a FLWG color guard competition a couple weeks ago there were several cadets who had just earned them.
Try reading the whole conversation.
Hmmm.. hope they are not the winning team..
Then again, maybe I do ;)
/me wonders what -else- they have -wrong- ;)
Quote from: phirons on October 12, 2012, 01:35:35 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 12, 2012, 01:55:43 AM
You haven't had Air Force firearms markmanship training familiarization, have you? It's a one day course.
1 day barely gets you past "Don't point the end with the hole at your face or at your buddy's face."
AKA the Cheney Codicil.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 21, 2012, 01:44:53 AM
Try reading the whole conversation
______________________________________________________________________________
I did, but was trying to comment on previous post; as well as people stating that the badges are essentially prohibited on our uniforms.
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
thank you for finding that for me :)
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
Per Knowledge Base....it is authorized.....I know that opens up a can of worms.....so ask your chain of command for guidance.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 21, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
Per Knowledge Base....it is authorized.....I know that opens up a can of worms.....so ask your chain of command for guidance.
Yep, they've said that. The
intent is to have some kind of program. Just not how our regs are now. So sure it's what they want, but it isn't what is the reality. Same thing with wing patches on flight suits.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 21, 2012, 06:07:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 21, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
Per Knowledge Base....it is authorized.....I know that opens up a can of worms.....so ask your chain of command for guidance.
Yep, they've said that. The intent is to have some kind of program. Just not how our regs are now. So sure it's what they want, but it isn't what is the reality. Same thing with wing patches on flight suits.
Squadron Patches. Wing patch is already authorized.
..and that is technically true. IT is authorized. If it was earned under that program .. that I'd be hard pressed to think there are any cadets left, who earned it that way. So while it is an authorized badge, that does not mean it can be earned anymore, per the regulations that authorize it's wear.
Perhaps the members of this forum that are on the NUC and the BoG would have a little more direct route at clearing up this kind of stuff :) .. getting better text in place, that is.
Quote from: RogueLeader on December 21, 2012, 06:14:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 21, 2012, 06:07:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 21, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Per 39-1 the latest iteration of the badge is not authorized.
Per Knowledge Base....it is authorized.....I know that opens up a can of worms.....so ask your chain of command for guidance.
Yep, they've said that. The intent is to have some kind of program. Just not how our regs are now. So sure it's what they want, but it isn't what is the reality. Same thing with wing patches on flight suits.
Squadron Patches. Wing patch is already authorized.
I got something on my mind, and it obviously wasn't the right word in this case. Squadron Patches is indeed what I meant.
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
This is a new one on me, actually. Mr. Wings, I knew quite a few cadets who spent the many hours perfecting their marksmanship skills under the old Junior Marksmanship Program and wore the currently authorized (and obsolete) award that accompanied it. None of those cadets were hot-headed, and were always very careful to point out that beyond being allowed to wear the badge, there was no correlation between the programs. Then again, that we do not have a marksmanship program within CAP may be a good reason to discontinue the device... though perhaps now would be a bad time since it would create the appearance of caving to a media frenzy.
For my own part I would be in favor of encouraging the "demystificization" of firearms, and promoting a firearm safety course to our cadets is a fantastic way to do that.
Quote from: BGNightfall on December 22, 2012, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
This is a new one on me, actually. Mr. Wings, I knew quite a few cadets who spent the many hours perfecting their marksmanship skills under the old Junior Marksmanship Program and wore the currently authorized (and obsolete) award that accompanied it. None of those cadets were hot-headed, and were always very careful to point out that beyond being allowed to wear the badge, there was no correlation between the programs. Then again, that we do not have a marksmanship program within CAP may be a good reason to discontinue the device... though perhaps now would be a bad time since it would create the appearance of caving to a media frenzy.
For my own part I would be in favor of encouraging the "demystificization" of firearms, and promoting a firearm safety course to our cadets is a fantastic way to do that.
It could be one bad apple, too. I'm semi jaded from one person acting poorly about his badge.
And I 1000% agree with the fact we should have a CAP course on firearms. It'd make much more sense for us to promote a firearms safety badge. There is no reason not to considering the fact that gun safety is not something most children, teenagers, and even adults are taught about today. Guns are very common today, and I think we could keep people on the "straight and narrow" if they learn about the affects of shooting someone, both on themselves and the families. This is not to be a "sissy" or anything, but it's dumb to have training on one half of firearms and not the other in my opinion.
I believe what you just suggested is the solution to the NRA badge problem AND to teaching our members about gun safety.
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion...
The vast majority of AF members will NEVER fire a weapon in the service (finance, MXS, Ops support, fire fighter). They better do away with the small arms marksmanship ribbon, just in case a real shooter gets confused with them and thinks they can shoot...
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 03:34:35 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion...
The vast majority of AF members will NEVER fire a weapon in the service (finance, MXS, Ops support, fire fighter). They better do away with the small arms marksmanship ribbon, just in case a real shooter gets confused with them and thinks they can shoot...
You haven't deployed, have you?
Quote from: PHall on December 22, 2012, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 03:34:35 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion...
The vast majority of AF members will NEVER fire a weapon in the service (finance, MXS, Ops support, fire fighter). They better do away with the small arms marksmanship ribbon, just in case a real shooter gets confused with them and thinks they can shoot...
You haven't deployed, have you?
Indeed I have. Twice to Iraq. Only AF SF did anything outside the wire... never seen someone outside AF SF member forced to fire the weapons...
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 03:34:35 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion
And I think we should get rid of the pocket rocket too. I hate the thing, it is a useless badge, even if it is actually relevant to CAP. I've actually hated the thing for a long time. And there is nothing wrong with a cadet saying they know a thing or two about rockets OR guns, but I've never heard a cadet say they are a USAF Space Defense cadet, while I've heard a cadet say he's a CAP field shooter that protects ground teams out in the field.
Claiming to be a rocket scientist seems to be much less appealing than saying you shoot at things to kids looking to try to impress people. As others have stated, I'd love to see a CAP gun safety program that involves similar shooting requirements for cadets to earn a badge. It could be turned into an NCSA that I'm sure would be highly popular.
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 04:13:12 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 22, 2012, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 03:34:35 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion...
The vast majority of AF members will NEVER fire a weapon in the service (finance, MXS, Ops support, fire fighter). They better do away with the small arms marksmanship ribbon, just in case a real shooter gets confused with them and thinks they can shoot...
You haven't deployed, have you?
Indeed I have. Twice to Iraq. Only AF SF did anything outside the wire... never seen someone outside AF SF member forced to fire the weapons...
Yeah, I wouldn't tell that to the CE and Trans guys and the other folks who got sucked into the "In Lieu Of" assignments who were running the convoys.
Nagh, they weren't outside the wire at all...
Quote from: PHall on December 22, 2012, 05:43:23 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 04:13:12 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 22, 2012, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 22, 2012, 03:34:35 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on December 22, 2012, 01:59:33 AM
We should just get rid of the [darn] things already. Not once will a cadet EVER shoot something in CAP outside of NCSA's or visits to the local FATS. What purpose does it serve to have cadets run around with these things? They look dumb, they're a joke, and I'm positive no cadet could make a strong connection between the badge and CAP.
Worse off, what happens when Cadet Johhny Got His-Gun (for those of you who get reference, kudos!) thinks he is all of the sudden wearing a real shooting qualification badge? Allowing stuff like this creates the risk of having cadets say that the skill is used in CAP to someone like, lets say, Mr. and Mrs. Kids O'Parent or to SrA Para Rescue Mann. If we cut it out, we can be assured no cadet is going to say that they are a CAP shooter.
In the good words of a relevant Christmas movie: "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"
SARCASM WARNING
Well, under that pretense, we should rid ourselves of the Cadet pocket rocket as well. Heaven forbid if one of our cadets passed themselves off as a rocket expert, or some sort of educated young man/woman about aerospace propulsion...
The vast majority of AF members will NEVER fire a weapon in the service (finance, MXS, Ops support, fire fighter). They better do away with the small arms marksmanship ribbon, just in case a real shooter gets confused with them and thinks they can shoot...
You haven't deployed, have you?
Indeed I have. Twice to Iraq. Only AF SF did anything outside the wire... never seen someone outside AF SF member forced to fire the weapons...
Yeah, I wouldn't tell that to the CE and Trans guys and the other folks who got sucked into the "In Lieu Of" assignments who were running the convoys.
Nagh, they weren't outside the wire at all...
Well, lets be honest though... Those "in lieu of" posistions were rare and the AF was not pleased with the use of those members (or so says the former CMSGT of the AF)
All of my deployments from 2005 on were ILO or JET missions and they sucked and did not win points withe the Army or Marines. They still happen now and a good chunk is EOD heading out. While a good chunk of the outside the wire missions were conducted by Security Forces alot of the convoys running in Iraq were other AFSCs. While NCRblues is correct in the aspect that many of the OTW are conducted by SF they were actually outnumbered in Iraq on the convoy runs.
To the topic at hand the way the current manual is written the current badge is not authorized, and there is nothing in any ICL indicating it as well. With 39-1 being revamped maybe it will be included but we should wait and see if that change will happen.
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 22, 2012, 06:29:30 AMWith 39-1 being revamped maybe it will be included but we should wait and see if that change will happen.
Except that it's still two-fold. A 39-1 rewrite would include the authorization to wear the badge. If the badge name has changed. That would need to be revised to indicate the old badge, unless that badge is not wearable by Senior Members, because once the cadets age-out, the badge is a moot point. But it would need to reflect whatever it is currently called.
A different regulation would authorized the wear of the badge, as it does now. 39-1 says it goes here, something else says you're allowed to wear it if XXX is met.
It takes two tango.
I was NAVY left the wire everyday, even slept outside the wire numerous times. Random houses, humvee, mortar pit, defense fox hole (yes, we still dug them). Spain' how i did that? LOL. I was no SF. Btw this is sarcasm.
[/quote]
I've heard a cadet say he's a CAP field shooter that protects ground teams out in the field.
[/quote]From what?
39-1 should have never referenced a 3rd party organization which can change and rename parts and pieces anytime it so desires. That was just asking for trouble and cofusion.
If anything needs to be referenced in 39-1 in terms of shooting proficiency and training awards, they should list qualified/competent organizations and generically list awards and leave it at that.
If any organization and it's awards system has to be 'specified' or listed, it should have been or should be this one, as specified in Federal Law --
http://www.odcmp.com/ (http://www.odcmp.com/)
About Us
QuoteThe Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) is a national organization dedicated to training and educating U. S. citizens in responsible uses of firearms and airguns through gun safety training, marksmanship training and competitions. The CMP is a federally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation that places its highest priority on serving youth through gun safety and marksmanship activities that encourage personal growth and build life skills. Links on this page will lead you to more detailed information about the CMP and its programs.
Statutory mission. The federal law enacted in 1996 (Title 36 U. S. Code, 0701-40733) that created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS, the formal legal name of the CMP) mandates these key "functions for the corporation:
(1) To instruct citizens of the United States in marksmanship;
(2) To promote practice and safety in the use of firearms;
(3) To conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors.
The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.
I think firearms proficiency should be taught, and participation in the various shooting sports should be encouraged as it presents a plethora of opportunites to do lots of different, positive things.
Everyone in a combat zone has a job to do, so long as they know what that is, and can do it, good... The unit I was in, is a BCT (Brigade Combat Team). We had every MOS we needed for a deployment, cooks, mechanics, finance, just about everything, except MPs, thankfully. We didn't have much need for AF or Navy, and we had a couple of dog handlers from the marines. The dogs went out with us a bit, and a group of mechanics went out for wreckers on QRF, but no one else did, except the SEAL team. They went out quite a bit. Great group of guys.
If we had other guys, from AF and Navy, we would not let them go out with us I'm sure. We had enough missions for QRF for marines on the other side of the city.
MP's Thankfully???????
Quote from: LTC Don on December 23, 2012, 02:55:47 PM
39-1 should have never referenced a 3rd party organization which can change and rename parts and pieces anytime it so desires. That was just asking for trouble and cofusion.
If anything needs to be referenced in 39-1 in terms of shooting proficiency and training awards, they should list qualified/competent organizations and generically list awards and leave it at that.
I think it would be safe to list the new NRA program by name. Winchester just forked over $500,000 to put it's name on it.
With all this "BAN" assault rifles and the NRA getting the 5th degree. It may hinder the success of the NRA badges. Just my .02.
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 23, 2012, 08:58:36 PM
With all this "BAN" assault rifles and the NRA getting the 5th degree. It may hinder the success of the NRA badges. Just my .02.
...how so? I'm just curious. The Army ROTC unit at my college used pellet guns for practice. I don't see how a ban on assault rifles would impact this NRA program. I don't even think we can use assault rifles even with DoD supervision at encampment like we used to.
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 23, 2012, 08:58:36 PM
With all this "BAN" assault rifles and the NRA getting the 5th degree. It may hinder the success of the NRA badges. Just my .02.
How?
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2012, 09:09:58 PMI don't even think we can use assault rifles even with DoD supervision at encampment like we used to.
You shoot whatever is available, there's no specific rules on the CAP side.
Few encampments can offer any live-fire training, but a number have access to the laser-based simulations of one kind or another.
We've shot laser M16's for at least a decade at Great Lakes (though they aren't air-charged, bummer).
Quote from: cap235629 on December 23, 2012, 05:42:34 PM
MP's Thankfully???????
We had issues with them in Kuwait, and other FOBs. They expected us to walk around garrisonized, berets, clean shaven, all kinds of craziness that you shouldn't need to worry about. We didn't even pack PT belts, it is a useless item for a deployment, yet they expected us to have them at all times. Not to mention the issue of us having ammo, they expected us to not have a single round on us, whereas on our outpost we had one in the chamber at all times. So they wanted us to hand over our grenades and ammo, and buy a PT belt, yeah.... Not happening. Why is an MP even worried about these issues? Seems like they got bored and felt they needed something to gripe about.
We lived on a combat outpost. Everyone there was 11 series, except a few mechanics, our medics, one SEAL team, and a couple of weatherman, oh and like three seabees. Other than that, nothing. No one griped if you didn't shave for a week, you wore body armor any time you left your building, and moved around like you were constantly being watched and always prepared for an attack. Food was mostly MRE, or brought in by mermites. Completely combat focused, you were never really off duty.
There was no need for MPs.
What did you do during your deployments?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 23, 2012, 09:22:55 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on December 23, 2012, 05:42:34 PM
MP's Thankfully???????
We had issues with them in Kuwait, and other FOBs. They expected us to walk around garrisonized, berets, clean shaven, all kinds of craziness that you shouldn't need to worry about. We didn't even pack PT belts, it is a useless item for a deployment, yet they expected us to have them at all times. Not to mention the issue of us having ammo, they expected us to not have a single round on us, whereas on our outpost we had one in the chamber at all times. So they wanted us to hand over our grenades and ammo, and buy a PT belt, yeah.... Not happening. Why is an MP even worried about these issues? Seems like they got bored and felt they needed something to gripe about.
We lived on a combat outpost. Everyone there was 11 series, except a few mechanics, our medics, one SEAL team, and a couple of weatherman, oh and like three seabees. Other than that, nothing. No one griped if you didn't shave for a week, you wore body armor any time you left your building, and moved around like you were constantly being watched and always prepared for an attack. Food was mostly MRE, or brought in by mermites. Completely combat focused, you were never really off duty.
There was no need for MPs.
What did you do during your deployments?
MP's only enforce the standards dictated by command. They weren't bored, they were following orders. The majority of the MP's in theater were NOT in a garrison environment. They were manning FOB's, conducting patrols in villages and towns, running convoy security or EPW operations.
When my buddy deployed back in '03 with the 39th BCT attached to 1/7 Cav, the job they were doing was verbatim the MP Combat Mission
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 23, 2012, 09:22:55 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on December 23, 2012, 05:42:34 PM
MP's Thankfully???????
We had issues with them in Kuwait, and other FOBs. They expected us to walk around garrisonized, berets, clean shaven, all kinds of craziness that you shouldn't need to worry about. We didn't even pack PT belts, it is a useless item for a deployment, yet they expected us to have them at all times. Not to mention the issue of us having ammo, they expected us to not have a single round on us, whereas on our outpost we had one in the chamber at all times. So they wanted us to hand over our grenades and ammo, and buy a PT belt, yeah.... Not happening. Why is an MP even worried about these issues? Seems like they got bored and felt they needed something to gripe about.
We lived on a combat outpost. Everyone there was 11 series, except a few mechanics, our medics, one SEAL team, and a couple of weatherman, oh and like three seabees. Other than that, nothing. No one griped if you didn't shave for a week, you wore body armor any time you left your building, and moved around like you were constantly being watched and always prepared for an attack. Food was mostly MRE, or brought in by mermites. Completely combat focused, you were never really off duty.
There was no need for MPs.
What did you do during your deployments?
Sounds like we served at the same AO. The only difference between my deployments in 04 and 06 with the Army, and my deployments in 08 and 09 with the Air Force is that the last two I wore ABUs instead of ACUs. I had the awesome pleasure of being a USAF Transportation type assigned to the Army, and as such had to go get the mermites EVERY SINGLE DAY. I hated it and got shot at alot because I had to leave the wire so much. As soon as we came into a major facility like JBB or BIA, we had to put on our reflective belts, shave, and take the mags out of our weapons. They didnt bust our stones too much except when your PT shirt wasnt tucked in, and I did have a very fresh 2LT get on my butt about wearing sunglasses in the commissary (they were prescription oakleys much to his dismay)
I have a feeling this whole NRA thing is going to get bigger than we realize. If the govt get there way, we will be neutered of our gun rights. It will be a "Police State" You think the "Average" person in america on this gun ban craze wants there kids to learn about guns? PrisonPlanet.com and InfoWars.com, should give you more info.
All this MP talk reminds me that there were MP's at Normandy during the invasion and as Soldiers came off the beach under enemy fire and some were issued tickets for not having a helmet or having their uniform in disarray. I always found the story funny due to it's absurdity. Having been an MP before I've never been in a role where I was ordered to enforce that kind of thing.
235629, we're we're your 11 series guys to run patrols? We are the actual combat trained. Our daily workload is to get stronger, learn to fight better with our bodies, and shoot better, clear houses faster and more efficiently, and work together toclose with, engage and destroy the enemy. MPs daily workload is like a beat cop in the civilian world.
I value MPs in actual garrison environment, but to take someone out of their job scope and put them into another job is not a good idea in a combat environment. You don't want an infantry guy cooking your food, you don't want a cook kicking down doors, we aren't trained for eachothers jobs. They are just too different. That is why the military has MOS designations, so that each person can perform their job, and you don't have to take an infantry soldier out of the field to cook, and you don't have to take an MP off the beat to perform a combat patrol.
The whole gun control issue rubs me raw like sand paper on fire.
Our 2nd amendment right shall not be infringed. Thomas Jefferson said that to be truly free we must be able to carry firearms equal to the ones that could be used against us, even ones used by our own military.
There are some that are arrogant enough, and perverse enough to say that the children in Connecticut would have died in vain if the ban does not pass. What about us? The soldiers that lay their lives in harm's way to protect the constitution, the declaration of independence? Would our efforts, lives, limbs, and eyes, our minds and souls would not have been given in vain if it does pass?
Why is Obama's family more important than mine?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 23, 2012, 11:15:31 PM
235629, we're we're your 11 series guys to run patrols? We are the actual combat trained. Our daily workload is to get stronger, learn to fight better with our bodies, and shoot better, clear houses faster and more efficiently, and work together toclose with, engage and destroy the enemy. MPs daily workload is like a beat cop in the civilian world.
I value MPs in actual garrison environment, but to take someone out of their job scope and put them into another job is not a good idea in a combat environment. You don't want an infantry guy cooking your food, you don't want a cook kicking down doors, we aren't trained for eachothers jobs. They are just too different. That is why the military has MOS designations, so that each person can perform their job, and you don't have to take an infantry soldier out of the field to cook, and you don't have to take an MP off the beat to perform a combat patrol.
You obviously have not a clue as to what a deployed MP does...... In fact, 90% of the garrison law enforcement in CONUS is handled by DA Civilians.
NRA Badge>MP Talk>Deployment Talk>Gun Control Talk? Funny how we side track each other.
Quote from: cap235629 on December 23, 2012, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 23, 2012, 11:15:31 PM
235629, we're we're your 11 series guys to run patrols? We are the actual combat trained. Our daily workload is to get stronger, learn to fight better with our bodies, and shoot better, clear houses faster and more efficiently, and work together toclose with, engage and destroy the enemy. MPs daily workload is like a beat cop in the civilian world.
I value MPs in actual garrison environment, but to take someone out of their job scope and put them into another job is not a good idea in a combat environment. You don't want an infantry guy cooking your food, youop don't want a cook kicking down doors, we aren't trained for eachothers jobs. They are just too different. That is why the military has MOS designations, so that each person can perform their job, and you don't have to take an infantry soldier out of the field to cook, and you don't have to take an MP off the beat to perform a combat patrol.
You obviously have not a clue as to what a deployed MP does...... In fact, 90% of the garrison law enforcement in CONUS is handled by DA Civilians.
Obviously I don't know what a deployed mp does. I have only seen them giving tickets, yes tickets, for not wearing a PT belt. I have never seen an mp on patrol or engaged in combat, that was my job. We didn't have MPs, and our deployment was enjoyable while inside the wire. That's all I'm saying. Well, other than the shot into our COP every couple of hours, and the mortars every morning afternoon and night.
My job consisted of door to door ops looking for weapons, detaining people, blowing up caches, and waiting until we have been on the ground for fourth five minutes for a firefight to ensue.
Out of genuine curiosity, what did yours consist of?
And for the percentage you quoted, I have no idea where that comes from, every police officer I have delt with on post was an mp, not civ.
Manfredvonrichthofen, you decided PT belts were unnecessary, someone higher then you and the MP, decided they were required.
Your beef is with the higher up, not the MP, just like in civilian life when cops write tickets for something people think shouldn't be illegal or isn't worth their attention.
You're not going to try and make the "go out and catch a real lawbreaker argument" or worse, try to make a mark higher on the
wall then some other servicemember?
Eclipse-
It appears that in the military, just like in the CAP, there are some people that do not like a regulation and want to do their own thing. Fortunately in the military, you cannot flaunt a regulation or order as some CAP people do when they on their own decide that "there is a hole in a regulation," "a regulation is outdated," or just does not apply to them. In the military, those who do so pay. In CAP, they do not.
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 23, 2012, 11:06:01 PMI have a feeling this whole NRA thing is going to get bigger than we realize.
..and has nothing to do with the badge, the regulations on it, or anything in between. There are forums for that discussion.
Eclipse, someone higher than me decided pt belts weren't worth the space, someone higher than the mp decided pt belts weren't worth the space, and it came to a cross between those two colonels, and neither won their argument, so we continued to do OUR own thing. What you said about go catch a real criminal is your own words, not mine. I gave my opinion, and stTed my observations about what I saw, and asked for his observations and experiences. Your comment is your own, not mine.
I also never tried to trump his job with mine. I asked him about his having stated thAT I don't know what his job entails. Please, taketh whole conversation before slamming one part of it.
Red Baron, to answer to your question:
door to door ops looking for weapons, detaining people, Enemy Prisoner of War operations, Calling EOD or 21B's to blow stuff up, convoy security and waiting until we have been on the ground for anywhere from minutes to endless hours of boredom for a firefight to ensue. I did not deploy, I never claimed to. I am telling you what the MP combat mission is. My generation is your generations SNCO's and Commanders. I am still very active with the MP Regimental Association and have many friends who are still in theater and/or are home after their 3rd or 4th deployment. Many soldiers do not know what the MP skill set is and are surprised, just as you were, that the Military Operations in Urban Terrain you performed when outside of the wire has been in the MP training and mission since Vietnam.
Quote from: flyer333555 on December 24, 2012, 12:11:15 AM
Eclipse-
It appears that in the military, just like in the CAP, there are some people that do not like a regulation and want to do their own thing. Fortunately in the military, you cannot flaunt a regulation or order as some CAP people do when they on their own decide that "there is a hole in a regulation," "a regulation is outdated," or just does not apply to them. In the military, those who do so pay. In CAP, they do not.
Ahhh......no. In the military we focus on the mission. Yes...we follow the regs....but don't get bent out of shape over them. In my 22 years on AD there are many many many times we have purposly violated regulations. Everything from wearing un authorised shirts to violoating "thou shall not" regulations. Yes there there is an art to doing this.....and I am not advocating everyone just doing their own thing.....but let's not pain the military as some regs robots....the PT belt is a prime example of the BS we had to put up with on Ad. Wearing a high vis PT belt while in a combat zone is some how disconnected with the same organisation that is spending even more money on trying to find the right camoflage uniform for combat zones. The point is.......any regulation that is a hinderance to the mission is going to get violated. My last commander used to have a phrases......"noted...proceed"... He would tell us to do XYZ, we would tell him what regs or policy pervented us from doing XYZ....."noted...Proceed".....and we proceeded.
I always thaught MPs were the guys wearing the white "Watch Belts" and wearing the white Kevlars and going into clubs and bashing people with there batons to break up bar fights. Or, the guys that come get you when you get thrown into jail.
Quote from: Devil Doc on December 24, 2012, 03:03:52 AM
I always thaught MPs were the guys wearing the white "Watch Belts" and wearing the white Kevlars and going into clubs and bashing people with there batons to break up bar fights. Or, the guys that come get you when you get thrown into jail.
That is the Law and Order mission but MP's don't even wear White Hats in garrison any more. It really is a VERY misunderstood MOS. Division MP more than likely will never sit behind the wheel of a police car. We even where the ones guarding the tactical nukes back in the day. I had to qualify with the 38, 9mm, 45, rifle, M-60, 50 cal and Mk19 depending on my assignment.
Thanks Capt Hobbs, by the way, I think we have met. At the LRAFB air show this past Summer.
Idk what happened to my Sig block (ha... My autocorrect capitalized Sig, must be for Sig Saur... Yep), but I am Robert Killion, just moved to AR a few months back, I can't wait to get active again... Back on track.
You're right, I bet most don't know any of that about MPs. I never would have thought it. Makes you wonder why MPs and Infantry aren't rolled together in Iraq. Well, I guess not now since infantry supposedly isn't in Iraq anymore. But from my experience, MPs are a pain, I never got to work with them outside, just had coarse dealings with them on FOBs. I wish I still had the ability to though, I mean I wish I were still in.
And the reason for my name on here... I know, he was an enemy pilot, but he was also an honorable combatant. There are accounts of him not firing on pilots that had a gun jam, or had something else that took their fighting ability going on. He had even flown next to his enemies and gave a salute to show that he had no wrong intentions. While he was honorable, he was still a fierce combatant. My father taught me about him when I was a kid talking about joining the Infantry, and he told me to strive to be so honorable yet fierce and determined. So i always kept that in mind, and I strive for the same still.
Side not to your most recent post, I was stationed in Campbell, and MPs were always the ones behind the wheel. I really don't think there were any civs in any sort of police style uniform, except for a couple guards at a few of the gates that had commercial trucks in and out all the time, every other one was manned by MPs. Campbell may have been the exception.
it's a FORSCOM vs. TRADOC thing and also is heavily dependent on deployment cycles. Ft. Riley has a majority of DA Poilce, Ft. Hood the same. Most TRADOC posts are the same way too. The only "road MP's" are usually specialty troops like MPI (detectives like CID lite) K9 and Traffic Accident Investigators. If a post's troops spend more time overseas, there is a higher likelihood that you will see DA Police. Usually a large installation like Campbell has multiple MP units that rotate the Law Enforcement mission between them. One will be deployed, one in training and 1 assigned to the road or something similar....
Quote from: cap235629 on December 24, 2012, 03:49:23 AM
it's a FORSCOM vs. TRADOC thing and also is heavily dependent on deployment cycles. Ft. Riley has a majority of DA Poilce, Ft. Hood the same. Most TRADOC posts are the same way too. The only "road MP's" are usually specialty troops like MPI (detectives like CID lite) K9 and Traffic Accident Investigators. If a post's troops spend more time overseas, there is a higher likelihood that you will see DA Police. Usually a large installation like Campbell has multiple MP units that rotate the Law Enforcement mission between them. One will be deployed, one in training and 1 assigned to the road or something similar....
That sounds like a solid plan. There is no garrison mission like that for Infantry, so I wouldn't think about that for any other MOS, I guess tasking would be difficult to arrange when you have a second job. Infantry, it's just fight, and train to fight.
Can you all take your MP, totally unrelated discussion, to another thread that you make specially for it, in the anything goes section? :)