Interestingly I'm preparing to give a talk to a group shortly on CAP and requested some brochures from National (I might add service was great in getting the material to me :clap:). What is interesting on the senior member "Learn, Lead, & Serve, as a Volunteer in the Civil Air Patrol" recruiting brochure, Q&A portion is the answer to 'What's the time commitment?'
Answer: "On average members meet one night a week for 2 hours. You will also have the opportunity to attend additional training, conferences and other activities"
I just seem to feel that 2 hours a week for many positions in CAP (actually most) just isn't a realistic time required for an adult to provide service.
On the other hand, perhaps IF duties are split up enough with enough adult members, maybe the time requirements for the staff duties can be reduced overall.
What do we really tell our prospective senior members regarding time commitments when the question comes up at presentations about CAP ??? Hedge a bit with a lot of wiggle room ???
RM
That is very true, overall, two hours a week just isn't enough to get all that you need done. Especially if you teach. I spend about three hours preparing a 30 minute class each week, and I think it goes over that more often than not. I spend a lot of time just thinking and looking over E-services to see what I can do to help everyone get through their requirements for their ground team qualifications. I spend about an hour each week making sure my uniforms are good. It just really does add up. So far, I have just been teaching basic leadership and ES, but now I am also going on to be our R&R Officer, and that I know is going to take even more time.
But I must say, I am glad to give that time, and I do it willingly, and that is the big kicker, you have to enjoy it, or you just aren't going to give that kind of time.
depends on the job...
everybody has to get their safety requirement done, right?
of course that can be done at home online...
over the years, we've had finance officers that we only saw 1 tuesday a month,
pt monitor (leadership officer) that we only saw on pt night (for the most part)
char dev instructor that we only saw on CD night (for the most part)
and so on
So if you're doing a 1 hour Char Dev, plus prepping for it, and attending the squadron monthly safety brief, maybe 2.5 hours a month minimum, for a limited role like that...
Something like a "leadership officer" could potentially get away with 2 Tuesdays a month, probably get away with skipping PT and maybe Aerospace, provided there aren't staff training or other things that are going on at the same time that require them to be there.
These arrangements worked out fine...
In fact, I have found them to be preferable, as i've seen situations where 'lots' of senior members present 'full time' wound up doing a lot of sitting around and staring blankly at each other. I've found that people, employed in the area that they are motivated to be employed in, with specific acceptable time 'requirements', perform an outstanding job exceptionally, for a long time. Whereas the same people, asked to do nothing, or a whole bunch of stuff they don't care about, for more hours than they are really interested in putting in, get dissatisfied and eventually just go away. Or just not joining at all in the first place.
Of course "somebody" needs to be there 'all the time'.
If nothing else for continuity, but realistically, to coordinate all the others who may not be "full time"
Two varieties here; You've got your people who are there for the full meeting duration basically every week (and maybe even a little before and a little after). About 10 hours a week.
Then you got the people who are there for the full meeting duration basically every week AND THEN spend some hours mid-week between meetings, working on CAP stuff to follow up after the last meeting and prep for the next. Maybe 20-25 hours a week... i've known people who did more (!)
Of course that doesn't even touch an "all day saturday" or an "all weekend" squadron activity, which has to be chaperoned by some adults as well... typically in addition to the Tuesday Meeting and mid-week workload. 8pm Friday through 4pm Sunday adds up the hours pretty quick (!)
Commuting shouldn't be disregarded either. Some CAP squadrons have members who commute 60 miles or even more just to get to the meetings. Time is money, and so is gas...
So yeah there can be levels of involvement depending on someone's availability, and motivation, from 2 hours a month, up to maybe 30 hours a week (!) The trick then would be getting the right people into the right arrangements and balancing that against the squadron's needs.
And that doesn't even touch cadets;
They really should be doing the 10 hours a week (every meeting) plus at least some uniform prep and personal study (for promotion) at home, minimum. As they go up in rank and responsibility, their 'outside meeting hours' duties should and will probably increase.
I don't think the brochure is wrong, but it may be a stretch when it comes to new members. How much more in their first month or two should we really expect from a new senior member? Just come to meetings, maybe read a reg every once in a while, finish up CPPT and Level 1 and get to know the lay of the land. In reality that doesn't always happen, I know. When I first joined I was thrust into two duty positions and pushed to begin ground team training during my first meeting. That was a bit of overload, but I tend to jump into things with both feet and didn't mind the added time spent reading and studying stuff to get where I needed to go. Around two hours a week is a decent expectation for a new SM to get their feet wet and figure out whether they have the CAP bug or not. Once/ if that takes hold, then be prepared for the 20+ hour weeks that many of us know so well.
Also, don't forget the mandatory 10+ hours a week spent here on CAP Talk!
I found that 2-4 hours per week was about it when I joined just a few years ago.
I'm closer to 30 hours per week now.
Interestingly I don't think it was the ever-expanding requirements of any one particular job that got me to this point but rather the "see a need, fill a need" attitude that I have. I have more jobs, responsibilities and projects in CAP than I do at work these days, mostly because there is ALWAYS more work than there are people to do it. :)
I know this isn't special either. It's likely the case in just about every squadron and with every person who volunteers. I tend to believe that if we didn't want to make a difference we wouldn't have joined.
So yeah, if you want to do the minimums and or fill just a specific role in a local squadron you can get away with just a few hours here and there. And that's not a bad thing. Most squadrons (I would assume) would greatly benefit from this type of volunteer (read: person without ADD Like I seem to have).
A good portion of us put in hundreds of hours per month because we choose to.
Just my take from personal experience of course.
Kinda like my National Guard recruiter who told me that the committment was "just one weekend a month and a two-week summer camp." ::)
If I ever find that guy . . . .
Quote from: Ned on April 19, 2012, 04:02:39 PM
Kinda like my National Guard recruiter who told me that the committment was "just one weekend a month and a two-week summer camp." ::)
If I ever find that guy . . . .
And thank him for the legal education and other benefits you accrued?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 19, 2012, 12:28:06 PM
Answer: "On average members meet one night a week for 2 hours.
That is pretty close. Some Units meet once or twice a month. So two or four hours a month.
Now Pareto's Principle, "roughly 80 percent of the 'work' will be done by 20 percent of the participants" is the Commanders fault. I know ones that do a great job delegating work.
But others seem to want to micromanage everything or just "trust" one or two others and then complain why Tom, Dick, Harry and himself do 80% of the work. Well that is because the other 16 is just chaperones for the Cadets. So some Members spend 20+ hours a week and have a lot of unneccesary stress and others do two hours. ???
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 20, 2012, 11:56:22 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 19, 2012, 04:02:39 PM
Kinda like my National Guard recruiter who told me that the committment was "just one weekend a month and a two-week summer camp." ::)
If I ever find that guy . . . .
And thank him for the legal education and other benefits you accrued?
Uncle Sam did not contribute to my education beyond the $100 a month stipend for ROTC. I was an Infantry officer and never did JAG work, so I think Uncle did not see the value in paying for law school.
But I did attend a University of California law school, so the California taxpayers did indeed kick in. And I am sincerely grateful to them for that, and on every payday.
Now that I am a retired veteran, I do need to start checking to see what benefits I qualify for. I did get 10% off my purchases at Lowe's today. That's something. I know my wife surely loves the commissary.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 19, 2012, 12:28:06 PM
Interestingly I'm preparing to give a talk to a group shortly on CAP and requested some brochures from National (I might add service was great in getting the material to me :clap:). What is interesting on the senior member "Learn, Lead, & Serve, as a Volunteer in the Civil Air Patrol" recruiting brochure, Q&A portion is the answer to 'What's the time commitment?'
Answer: "On average members meet one night a week for 2 hours. You will also have the opportunity to attend additional training, conferences and other activities"
I just seem to feel that 2 hours a week for many positions in CAP (actually most) just isn't a realistic time required for an adult to provide service.
On the other hand, perhaps IF duties are split up enough with enough adult members, maybe the time requirements for the staff duties can be reduced overall.
What do we really tell our prospective senior members regarding time commitments when the question comes up at presentations about CAP ??? Hedge a bit with a lot of wiggle room ???
RM
You tell them the CAP is like any other organization. You get out of it, what you put into it. The more time you devote to the organization, the greater your potential for success, promotions, awards, etc.
The saddest thing I ever saw in a unit is when someone comes in fresh off the street and the commander assigns them to a vacancy that they don't really want to do. Give the new guy six months to see where they want to fit into the organization and take into account their goals and ambitions.
If you are fortunate enough to recruit new members, if they want to limit their initial involvement to two hours a week; then fill those time periods with training and exposure to senior member specialities and those things like a mentored Level I or SLS, so they can pick a speciality and prepare for promotion to first lieutenant.
Everyone always comes into this organization, cadet and senior member, and somehow they get high expections that are set so high that they never last beyond one or two years. The better thing to do is start them slowly and then ramp up the involvement to coincide with their goals and ambitions. I realize counseling a brand new airman in the Air Force is different than a new CAP senior member or cadet, but somethings remain the same: Like telling them to set goals like an achievement award or observer or solo wings and then sit back and watch what happens.
I just read something from NHQ that talked about the cadet program and how most cadets who make it to the Mitchell Award, never progress beyond it. I also don't know how many times, I've seen senior members make it to first lieutenant or captain and then never go any further.
2-4 hours a month for a basic CAP "indian"who doesn't hold a staff position of any kind (which they probably shouldn't for at least a year or two anyway). And there are quite a few staff positions that wouldn't add a significantly higher time commitment.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 22, 2012, 01:57:43 PM
2-4 hours a month for a basic CAP "indian"who doesn't hold a staff position of any kind (which they probably shouldn't for at least a year or two anyway). And there are quite a few staff positions that wouldn't add a significantly higher time commitment.
My squadron is small, so know that I'm not used to 100 member squadrons. What on Earth do members do if they're not on staff? They can't progress to LVII because they can't be enrolled in a tech rating, and short of working on ES quals, all of the other stuff requires that you have a lane of some sort.
WIWASC I would have loved to have several dozen seniors who only came to meetings and were available for ES work. But, that depends on what sort of program you're running. If you're a cadet squadron or cadet-centric composite squadron (cadet squadrons in all but name only) that doesn't do ES, then surplus seniors beyond the few really necessary staff slots probably don't add much value.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 22, 2012, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 22, 2012, 01:57:43 PM
2-4 hours a month for a basic CAP "indian"who doesn't hold a staff position of any kind (which they probably shouldn't for at least a year or two anyway). And there are quite a few staff positions that wouldn't add a significantly higher time commitment.
My squadron is small, so know that I'm not used to 100 member squadrons. What on Earth do members do if they're not on staff? They can't progress to LVII because they can't be enrolled in a tech rating, and short of working on ES quals, all of the other stuff requires that you have a lane of some sort.
IIRC, you can be enrolled in a specialty track, and progress pretty far in it, serving as an Assistant [insert position] Officer. If there are that many senior members, then it should be possible to rotate folks through jobs every 18 months or so, and give everyone a chance to serve in a primary position.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 23, 2012, 04:39:02 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 22, 2012, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 22, 2012, 01:57:43 PM
2-4 hours a month for a basic CAP "indian"who doesn't hold a staff position of any kind (which they probably shouldn't for at least a year or two anyway). And there are quite a few staff positions that wouldn't add a significantly higher time commitment.
My squadron is small, so know that I'm not used to 100 member squadrons. What on Earth do members do if they're not on staff? They can't progress to LVII because they can't be enrolled in a tech rating, and short of working on ES quals, all of the other stuff requires that you have a lane of some sort.
IIRC, you can be enrolled in a specialty track, and progress pretty far in it, serving as an Assistant [insert position] Officer. If there are that many senior members, then it should be possible to rotate folks through jobs every 18 months or so, and give everyone a chance to serve in a primary position.
Right, and serving as the Assistant Chief Bottlewasher means you're on staff.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 22, 2012, 02:20:46 PM
My squadron is small, so know that I'm not used to 100 member squadrons. What on Earth do members do if they're not on staff? They can't progress to LVII because they can't be enrolled in a tech rating ...
100+ member units ... I never hear nothing positive them. One female member told me in her large Squadron it took two years just to get 2nd Lt. The only reason she stayed was her husband was a mission pilot.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 23, 2012, 02:27:47 PM
Right, and serving as the Assistant Chief Bottlewasher means you're on staff.
Which speciality track is that? ???
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 24, 2012, 02:14:02 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 23, 2012, 02:27:47 PM
Right, and serving as the Assistant Chief Bottlewasher means you're on staff.
Which speciality track is that? ???
My guess is one of the logistics ones.
Quote from: jeders on April 24, 2012, 02:15:14 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 24, 2012, 02:14:02 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 23, 2012, 02:27:47 PM
Right, and serving as the Assistant Chief Bottlewasher means you're on staff.
Which speciality track is that? ???
My guess is one of the logistics ones.
Roger that. I have met a lot of Master rated Logistic types and they have zero knowledge ...
Those who know Logistics I salute you :clap: