An Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) policy letter issued April 10 states that starting October 1, military personnel in any Air Force Specialty Code assigned to an AFSPC unit will no longer be authorized to wear the flight suit and green flight jacket, unless they are engaged in flying operations, nor are they authorized to wear the A-2 Leather Jacket.
"Between the expense of purchasing these items, and the fact that our operations don't involve flying, this recommendation was good common sense," General Shelton (commander of AFSPC) said.
Full article here: http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123297976 (http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123297976)
Mike
What!!!! Common sense in the Air Force!!! Say it isn't so! :o
Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2012, 05:43:03 PM
What!!!! Common sense in the Air Force!!! Say it isn't so! :o
It is the end of the world as we know it :o
Quote from: Littleguy on April 15, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2012, 05:43:03 PM
What!!!! Common sense in the Air Force!!! Say it isn't so! :o
It is the end of the world as we know it :o
Na, the biggest culprit in the "I shall wear my flight suit everywhere all the time" is still running wild. Air Combat Command - where even finance troops feel like fighter pilots ;D
Quote from: NCRblues on April 15, 2012, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on April 15, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2012, 05:43:03 PM
What!!!! Common sense in the Air Force!!! Say it isn't so! :o
It is the end of the world as we know it :o
Na, the biggest culprit in the "I shall wear my flight suit everywhere all the time" is still running wild. Air Combat Command - where even finance troops feel like fighter pilots ;D
You'd think Finance would cut their own flightsuits to try to save money and get more Dunkin Donuts in the office or something...
The DOD was ordered earlier this year to cut expenditures by 10%-OR ELSE!! This is one of the results of that edict. But there are so many other things that can be cut that this is a mere drop in the bucket. Too bad they didn't ask my opinion I have a Billion dollars in cuts I could recommend.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 15, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
The DOD was ordered earlier this year to cut expenditures by 10%-OR ELSE!! This is one of the results of that edict. But there are so many other things that can be cut that this is a mere drop in the bucket. Too bad they didn't ask my opinion I have a Billion dollars in cuts I could recommend.
It's a drop in the bucket, but alot of drops fill the bucket.
Quote from: arajca on April 15, 2012, 07:39:33 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 15, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
The DOD was ordered earlier this year to cut expenditures by 10%-OR ELSE!! This is one of the results of that edict. But there are so many other things that can be cut that this is a mere drop in the bucket. Too bad they didn't ask my opinion I have a Billion dollars in cuts I could recommend.
It's a drop in the bucket, but alot of drops fill the bucket.
(http://demotivators.despair.com/irresponsibilitydemotivator.jpg)
Quote from: Littleguy on April 15, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2012, 05:43:03 PM
What!!!! Common sense in the Air Force!!! Say it isn't so! :o
It is the end of the world as we know it :o
And I feel fine! - REM
Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;) If stuff keeps getting crazier, drivers across the nation will put down their phones and drive. Pigs will fly before that day, I am sure. >:D
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 15, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
The DOD was ordered earlier this year to cut expenditures by 10%-OR ELSE!! This is one of the results of that edict. But there are so many other things that can be cut that this is a mere drop in the bucket. Too bad they didn't ask my opinion I have a Billion dollars in cuts I could recommend.
As long as those cuts don't include US.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 15, 2012, 09:38:43 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 15, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
The DOD was ordered earlier this year to cut expenditures by 10%-OR ELSE!! This is one of the results of that edict. But there are so many other things that can be cut that this is a mere drop in the bucket. Too bad they didn't ask my opinion I have a Billion dollars in cuts I could recommend.
As long as those cuts don't include US.
Our budget is probably less than the costs of the pickle suits that were just outlawed, and is a seperate line item from the USAF.
Guess I'm not surprised, but I see it more as a smoke screen.
Eventually there will be a call to adopt some sort of special duty uniform, budget contraints or not, and I wonder if this means they'll go back to blue flight suits or coveralls and/or blue BDUs.
Gee, then guess what comes after that....don't worry about ABUs for CAP.....
Or they will just wear the ABU like everyone else.
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 19, 2012, 02:22:37 AM
Or they will just wear the ABU like everyone else.
I won't say it won't happen, but I strongly doubt it because it's a mission thing, and there's tradition and morale factors. Missileers, especially, have always had a distinctive uniform. Sometimes those uniforms were even white and then they went to blue coveralls. The only ones I ever saw wearing fatigues or BDUs in those environments were the SPs or the site support teams. I'm sure the flight suit thing was suggested out of comfort and durability, because wearing a dress uniform in those environments can be uncomfortable after a number of hours.
Sure AFSC space mission crews and missileers might end up wearing ABUs, but there are also decades of tradition of missileers wearing something distinctive, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone isn't already considering other options.
Quote from: flyboy1 on April 19, 2012, 11:13:09 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 19, 2012, 02:22:37 AM
Or they will just wear the ABU like everyone else.
I won't say it won't happen, but I strongly doubt it because it's a mission thing, and there's tradition and morale factors. Missileers, especially, have always had a distinctive uniform. Sometimes those uniforms were even white and then they went to blue coveralls. The only ones I ever saw wearing fatigues or BDUs in those environments were the SPs or the site support teams. I'm sure the flight suit thing was suggested out of comfort and durability, because wearing a dress uniform in those environments can be uncomfortable after a number of hours.
Sure AFSC space mission crews and missileers might end up wearing ABUs, but there are also decades of tradition of missileers wearing something distinctive, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone isn't already considering other options.
Don't missileers have the pocket rocket? That's fairly distinctive, even from other AFSC and rated-type badges/wings.
I believe the article suggested this change would save the USAF something like $600k/year. Not huge, but makes good fiscal sense if nomex isn't required in the execution of their daily duties.
Quote from: Pylon on April 19, 2012, 01:50:53 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on April 19, 2012, 11:13:09 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 19, 2012, 02:22:37 AM
Or they will just wear the ABU like everyone else.
I won't say it won't happen, but I strongly doubt it because it's a mission thing, and there's tradition and morale factors. Missileers, especially, have always had a distinctive uniform. Sometimes those uniforms were even white and then they went to blue coveralls. The only ones I ever saw wearing fatigues or BDUs in those environments were the SPs or the site support teams. I'm sure the flight suit thing was suggested out of comfort and durability, because wearing a dress uniform in those environments can be uncomfortable after a number of hours.
Sure AFSC space mission crews and missileers might end up wearing ABUs, but there are also decades of tradition of missileers wearing something distinctive, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone isn't already considering other options.
Don't missileers have the pocket rocket? That's fairly distinctive, even from other AFSC and rated-type badges/wings.
I believe the article suggested this change would save the USAF something like $600k/year. Not huge, but makes good fiscal sense if nomex isn't required in the execution of their daily duties.
My Sq/CC is Missle Mx, wears the Pocket Rocket and ABU's
I saw something a while back that mentioned launch crews tend to change out of their uniforms into more comfortable clothes while they sit on alert.
The ICBMs belong to Air Force Global Strike Command, not Space Command.
AFGSC gained three missile wings, one each at F.E. Warren AFB, Wyo.; Malmstrom AFB, Mont.; and Minot AFB, N.D., with the assumption of the entire 20th Air Force mission, including that organization's responsibility for all of the United States' 450 ICBMs. The 576th Flight Test Squadron at Vandenberg AFB, Calif., as well as the 625th Strategic Operations Squadron at Offutt AFB, Neb., also now fall under AFGSC. Previously all of those units were part of Air Force Space Command.
The alert crews will get to keep wearing whatever is that they're wearing down there.
Mike
Quote from: sardak on April 19, 2012, 06:20:21 PM
The ICBMs belong to Air Force Global Strike Command, not Space Command.
When did that change? About five or so years ago I knew a young airman at Minot (actually, went to church with his father) who worked in the missile silos and I am almost sure he belonged to Space Command.
Then again, the AF has so many commands now (which doing away with SAC, MAC and TAC was supposed to alleviate!) I couldn't name them all if I tried.
AF Global Strike Command was organized in August, 2009 and picked up all the ICBMs on December 1, 2009. AFGSC, along with AFSPC, is one of the service components of STRATCOM. It's an interesting chain of custody on how the missiles got from SAC to Space to Strike, back to STRATCOM (SAC Deluxe).
Mike
Quote from: sardak on April 19, 2012, 07:40:29 PM
AF Global Strike Command was organized in August, 2009 and picked up all the ICBMs on December 1, 2009. AFGSC, along with AFSPC, is one of the service components of STRATCOM. It's an interesting chain of custody on how the missiles got from SAC to Space to Strike, back to STRATCOM (SAC Deluxe).
Mike
Not to mention all the Bomb wings they picked up and the 8th AF. It's SAC with a facelift.
Maaan, why not just bring back SAC? Proud history (I admit it, even though I was TAC :P), and who knows what kind of positive effect on morale it might have?
Quote from: CyBorg on April 19, 2012, 09:53:23 PM
Maaan, why not just bring back SAC? Proud history (I admit it, even though I was TAC :P), and who knows what kind of positive effect on morale it might have?
I was at a briefing from the then temporary Global Strike Commander and he said basically that bringing back SAC was looked at hard, but apparently many of the baby boomer generation have bad connotations with SAC. So, they went with SAC 2.0 or as we now know it Global Strike Command.
The GSC idea was just being thought up with the Minot incident really brought the fact that our nukes were all over the (command) map and no 2 nuke spots followed the same rules. So, GSC was forced through in quick order to help prevent another Minot incident.
"Bad connotations?"
(http://www.memomine.com/images/lobbycards/StrategicAirCommandLc4.jpg)
Quote from: CyBorg on April 19, 2012, 10:05:12 PM
"Bad connotations?"
(http://www.memomine.com/images/lobbycards/StrategicAirCommandLc4.jpg)
I love SAC so much. Very great movie.
I didn't say I bought the reason given, but I was not in a position to argue with the 3 star >:D
Those of us who were "SAC Trained Killers" would have no problem bringing SAC back. >:D
[I served in SAC from 1975 to 1980 and 1983 to 1990.]
Quote from: NCRblues on April 19, 2012, 09:43:06 PM
Quote from: sardak on April 19, 2012, 07:40:29 PM
AF Global Strike Command was organized in August, 2009 and picked up all the ICBMs on December 1, 2009. AFGSC, along with AFSPC, is one of the service components of STRATCOM. It's an interesting chain of custody on how the missiles got from SAC to Space to Strike, back to STRATCOM (SAC Deluxe).
Mike
Not to mention all the Bomb wings they picked up and the 8th AF. It’s SAC with a facelift.
I stand corrected. Should have just kept SAC, but what do I know......I was AAC, TAC and MAC (oh, excuse me, AMC). >:D
quote author=Littleguy link=topic=15175.msg273751#msg273751 date=1334874283]
Quote from: CyBorg on April 19, 2012, 10:05:12 PM
"Bad connotations?"
(http://www.memomine.com/images/lobbycards/StrategicAirCommandLc4.jpg)
I love SAC so much. Very great movie.
[/quote]
You should check out a Gathering of Eagles (especially about missiles) or Bombers B-52.
Quote from: flyboy1 on April 20, 2012, 10:52:22 AMYou should check out a Gathering of Eagles (especially about missiles) or Bombers B-52.
Those are the 2nd and 3rd legs of the great Air Force movie triad!
AFGSC =/= SAC. It's just that simple. While they may look similar there are some very important distinctions:
1. AFGSC does not have any tanker or RECCE units assigned to it. They remain assigned to AMC and ACC respectively.
2. AFGSC does not have a combat mission for itself. Its assets are farmed out to CENTCOM, STRATCOM and the various other combatant commands. That being said USSTRATCOM has priority over the other combatant commands should the need for nuclear forces arrive.
3. Crap that you could have gotten away with during the days of SAC will get you kicked out in this day and age. Some things we can do would never fly in SAC.
The ICBM units are in a strange position where they are under a tug of war constantly. For the purposes of training, mx, and such, we fall under AFGSC. We do those things on alert. However we primarily are there to support STRATCOM and the CJCS. We can receive message traffic from either STRATCOM or CJCS as appropriate. (CJCS can skip STRATCOM if the need arises.)
On a day to day basis the 9 missile squadrons report to the 90th, 91st, and 341st MW as appropriate who then report to 20th AF which reports to AFGSC.
However, on a day to day basis, for mission/alert functions The primary Launch Control Centers (PLCCs) report to their Squadron Command Post (SCP) which report to the Alternate Command Post (ACP) which can report directly to Task Force 214 (which is commanded by the 20th AF commander.) or the STRATCOM Global Operations Center (GOC).
As for uniforms...
Day to day we wear Flight Suits or ABUs depending on personal preference. If we are training in the Missile Procedures Trainer or performing alert functions we wear our flight suits. While on alert we wear our flight suits...except when everything is closed away and it's just the two officers. Then we usually change to our PJs, knock out whatever work we need to do, study, but otherwise kick our feet up and wait for something to happen.
To piggyback off Andrew the 13S officers in AFGSC can still wear their flight suits. There is not a regulation change vetted through the uniform board but a policy letter for those 13S and 1C6s assigned to AFSPC. No big deal either way both will continue to be awesome at what they do with no interruption to customer service. :)
Here's some more on this change in a release from the 21st Space Wing: http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255 (http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255)
This statement sounds like something from some CAP Talkers:
"We want to create synergy among all personnel across the command," [Gen] Shelton [AFSPC/CC] said in the letter. "When personnel wear the same uniform it has a unifying effect toward mission accomplishment. Standardization among the entire command prevents the perception of a 'haves' and 'have nots' situation; the very meaning of the word 'uniform' should drive us toward standardization."
And from other CAP Talkers:
A few grumbles have been heard around base, but Chief Master Sgt. Thomas Trottier, 21st Space Wing command chief, said the change is a positive one. "At the end of the day we are all Airmen, it doesn't matter what we're wearing. We're all the same," he said.
Mike
Glad to see my old wing is still in the mix.......How's Iron Mike these days...hopefully he's still on guard at the Air Force Museum?
Quote from: sardak on April 27, 2012, 09:42:47 PM
Here's some more on this change in a release from the 21st Space Wing: http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255 (http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255)
This statement sounds like something from some CAP Talkers:
"We want to create synergy among all personnel across the command," [Gen] Shelton [AFSPC/CC] said in the letter. "When personnel wear the same uniform it has a unifying effect toward mission accomplishment. Standardization among the entire command prevents the perception of a 'haves' and 'have nots' situation; the very meaning of the word 'uniform' should drive us toward standardization."
And from other CAP Talkers:
A few grumbles have been heard around base, but Chief Master Sgt. Thomas Trottier, 21st Space Wing command chief, said the change is a positive one. "At the end of the day we are all Airmen, it doesn't matter what we're wearing. We're all the same," he said.
Mike
I have always said the CAP is a lot more like the USAF then a lot out there think.
I lived through seveal changes in the USAF uniform and one "what do you think about this" change.
I remember when the flyers go their leather jackets.
I remember when space command switched from blue flight suits to green.
Same gumbeling as we have here on CAPTALK. ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on April 28, 2012, 12:08:14 AM
Quote from: sardak on April 27, 2012, 09:42:47 PM
Here's some more on this change in a release from the 21st Space Wing: http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255 (http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123299255)
This statement sounds like something from some CAP Talkers:
"We want to create synergy among all personnel across the command," [Gen] Shelton [AFSPC/CC] said in the letter. "When personnel wear the same uniform it has a unifying effect toward mission accomplishment. Standardization among the entire command prevents the perception of a 'haves' and 'have nots' situation; the very meaning of the word 'uniform' should drive us toward standardization."
And from other CAP Talkers:
A few grumbles have been heard around base, but Chief Master Sgt. Thomas Trottier, 21st Space Wing command chief, said the change is a positive one. "At the end of the day we are all Airmen, it doesn't matter what we're wearing. We're all the same," he said.
Mike
I have always said the CAP is a lot more like the USAF then a lot out there think.
I lived through seveal changes in the USAF uniform and one "what do you think about this" change.
I remember when the flyers go their leather jackets.
I remember when space command switched from blue flight suits to green.
Same gumbeling as we have here on CAPTALK. ;D
Oh no, the whining about the leather jackets was way worse then anything here on CAPTalk.
The Air Force Times almost had to switch to abestos paper because it got so heated.
I was in the first group of aircrew to get one. Sometimes it was good to be at Offutt!