CAP Talk

One of my biggest peeves about CAP is the abuse of the 2B process by people who just don't like the member in question and want him/her OUT.

Thank God, I have never been on the receiving end of one, but I know all too many people who have, including a Chaplain who only escaped it by having officers higher up overrule it.

I know that there are supposed to be strict guidelines on how it's implemented.  However, the real world often runs differently.

I think most adults are going to evaluate exact what was the cause for this and is it worth the fight to stay in the organization.

Frankly, I think the regulation is poorly written, in most instances there needs to be a formalized counselling'disciplinary system BEFORE 2B initiation to include, oral counselling, written counselling/warning, suspension (with improvement plan upon return), and than if all else fails 2B (removal from membership).     BTW I don't mean letters of admonishment or reprimand, the formal counselling should be very specific as to the issues and the member along with the leadership should come up with an improvement plan.   IF the member improves, than the record needs to reflect this also.    Additionally, these records need to have a very specific retention period.  I would think not more than 3 to 4 years, without another incident results in destruction of the documentation/no record.  It shouldn't be forever in a members record >:(  There should be no secret personnel records that the member is not aware of.
RM     

Hey, if you get 2B'd because you write a NSF check to CAP, or something otherwise harmless, pursue the review while admitting your actual culpability and asking for forgiveness. If you get a 2B because they say you molested a kid, sold drugs, lent your ID card to an Al Quaida' member, or something that is really egregiously criminal, go immediately to lawyer, do not pass go. ( unless you are guilty, in which case, Washington could use a man like you!) Don't talk to anyone in CAP once that bullet has been fired, you can't win on CAP's terms. You can't afford to have something like that follow you around, even if you are assured of confidentiality.

Major Lord

Fight it is the closest to what I would do.  I would not lawer up or call my elected officals.

The only way to stop the abuse is to use the system to its fullest. 

If you are truely innocent.....then in the end the abusers look stupid and you win.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 07, 2012, 11:15:10 PM
One of my biggest peeves about CAP is the abuse of the 2B process by people who just don't like the member in question and want him/her OUT.

Thank God, I have never been on the receiving end of one, but I know all too many people who have, including a Chaplain who only escaped it by having officers higher up overrule it.

I know that there are supposed to be strict guidelines on how it's implemented.  However, the real world often runs differently.

I've been threatened with a 2B on more than one occasion, both as a cadet and senior, and I've been either on the periphery of or initiated a couple-three others.

They're never pretty.  However, my rule for a termination was that I needed to have a clear cut violation of the regs, or an pattern of progressive discipline and failure to comply (ie. you've told someone the expected behavior/course of action, they refused to follow, you did it in writing, they again refused, etc). 

Its when you launch in to "he said, she said" in the course of a termination that you get issues.

If you cannot explain in about a paragraph a really, really clear explanation of why the member needs to be terminated, maybe you should consider a different course of action.   Like "Member was warned that he should not do [action] anymore. He refused to comply to the verbal order. He was counseled in writing twice that he should not do [action].  He agreed, yet continued.  Termination is the only remaining option."

My unit commander WIWAC threw me under the bus with our group commander over a recruiting event that netted us about 15 cadets out of a school that was nominally an adjacent squadron's recruiting area.  In giving us permission to conduct the recruiting, he said "Well, technically this is that unit's area, but go ahead."  When the other commander complained that we'd poached cadets from his recruiting area, my commander told the group commander "I had no idea they were doing this. They did it on their own, without permission."  I got a serious butt chewing from the group CC and was threatened with termination.    I was, however, able to corroborate my story with others in the room, who willingly supplied their recollection of the event. The group commander fired my squadron commander for lying to him.  Bad news, but we dotted our i's and crossed our t's with our CO.

That 2B wouldn't have ever flown, as it was predicated on bogus information.  That would have come out in the appeal, in any event.

If a 2B is being handled wrongly (against the regs, collusion between the appeal board and the terminating echelon, etc), you likely have a very good IG complaint or MARB appeal.

I hear all the time about someone being supposedly railroaded out of CAP on "false charge".  I don't think I've ever heard of someone being successfully terminated where, once all the facts were known, it was a bad 2B.

Remember, there are two sides to every story.  I know a guy who got busted for stealing from his employer and was allowed to participate in a state's sort of "be good for 2 years and this will go away" program.  He tells everybody "the charges were dropped." No, dude, they weren't dropped, they were set aside for 2 years.  Get a speeding ticket and you're on the hook for theft as well. 

But everybody believes what he says because he's the only one out there putting out the story. His former employer and some associated parties have kept their mouths shut (and rightly so), but a gent wrote an article for publication that tells their side of the story and integrates the state's attorney, the local PD, etc and oh, whoops, lookie: charges not dismissed.

:)

So just remember: when you hear someone gets railroaded, be sure you know both/all sides before you make a decision.

I've never have been worried about the "2b" process. I've never been faced with one nor have I ever needed to start one on a member.  Terminating a membership is the last step in a long process of "adverse actions" taken over time.  I do find it amazing, however, many commanders use this as the only means of adverse action. Usually, when this is the case, the action is reversed on appeal or, after a MARB review. 
One thing that would make life simpler for everyone; a member "adverse action guide".  It would help all concerned get thru disiplinary procedings a bit smoother.

I think I would fight it, but as a few others have said, not lawyer unless it is a wrongful termination issue.

I have been threatened by another cadet with going through the channels and getting me 2b'd for some ridiculous reason (I don't even remember what it was, it's been so long). This cadet's "complaint" was just brushed to the side though due to the fact he 1)went the wrong way through the channels (jumped squadron level and handed his form or recommendation directly to the Wing IG when he was there for the Squadron Inspection) and 2) his behavior (at wing and squadron level) was one that already had him on the "bad list" at the wing level. Someone told me about the situation after the fact and didn't surprise me.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2012, 02:17:12 AM
Fight it is the closest to what I would do.  I would not lawer up or call my elected officals.

The only way to stop the abuse is to use the system to its fullest. 

If you are truely innocent.....then in the end the abusers look stupid and you win.

+1

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on April 08, 2012, 03:47:39 AM
I think I would fight it, but as a few others have said, not lawyer unless it is a wrongful termination issue.

I have been threatened by another cadet with going through the channels and getting me 2b'd for some ridiculous reason (I don't even remember what it was, it's been so long). This cadet's "complaint" was just brushed to the side though due to the fact he 1)went the wrong way through the channels (jumped squadron level and handed his form or recommendation directly to the Wing IG when he was there for the Squadron Inspection) and 2) his behavior (at wing and squadron level) was one that already had him on the "bad list" at the wing level. Someone told me about the situation after the fact and didn't surprise me.

IGs aren't in the CoC. You can file a report at any level. I don't know about at an inspection, though.

The IG is  a tool yes but should be used if the CoC is unable to rectify or is the problem and shouldn't be used as an initial avenue for complaints.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2012, 02:17:12 AM
Fight it is the closest to what I would do.  I would not lawer up or call my elected officals.

Same here assuming it is some sort of bogus charge. 

In my experiences most problems start as a personality clash. If Tom as Squadron Commander sat down with Dick and Harry they could resolve their problem and/or issue. Of course if the problem is the Squadron Commander then that is another issue.

I'd fight the 2B down to the bitter end, and bring down the person who put it on me if possible.

I think the 2B should only be used for the most extreme cases and not light-handedly.   Commanders that use it to "brow beat" and for the most trivial or "I don't like you" kind of way are doing the system a disservice.

Quote from: abdsp51 on April 08, 2012, 06:41:13 AM
The IG is a tool ...

Guess that sums things up.

I the IG process is a tool not the person...

Quote from: abdsp51 on April 08, 2012, 07:32:12 PM
I the IG process is a tool not the person...

Thanks, I think.

I've been waiting for you to jump in Phil.

Ugh that was suppose to say "The IG" not anything else, what I get for trying to type and not having caffeine in my system.

In my opinion, it is a real shame that the organization's corporate culture is such that new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know the form number to decorate a member for significant service.

In my  opinion, this has been a problem for ages. For example, the cadet that served as the recruiting office of the first unit I joined actually had the form number on an orientation phase quiz. Another example, I have been in the room when a commander has leveled the threat of termination against everyone if they did not comply with his instructions (In my opinion, a stellar example of how not to lead).

It has been my experience that the termination form and/ or its threatened use is a political weapon. If it was used correctly there would be no need for a MARB.

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on April 09, 2012, 01:45:49 AM
In my opinion, it is a real shame that the organization's corporate culture is such that new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know the form number to decorate a member for significant service.

In my  opinion, this has been a problem for ages. For example, the cadet that served as the recruiting office of the first unit I joined actually had the form number on an orientation phase quiz. Another example, I have been in the room when a commander has leveled the threat of termination against everyone if they did not comply with his instructions (In my opinion, a stellar example of how not to lead).

It has been my experience that the termination form and/ or its threatened use is a political weapon. If it was used correctly there would be no need for a MARB.

Although I agree with the above statement, I think it is a bit over the top.  Of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who have been members of CAP over the years, there has been a very small fraction who actually were terminated from membership.  The "2b" has become the "monster under the bed".
There is always a need for a review of membership adverse actions.  We need a well trained leadership and a system of checks and balances.  An unbiased MARB and, an unpolitical IG system are critical parts of the puzzle to insure the process works.

Quote from: FW on April 09, 2012, 02:43:42 AM
An unbiased MARB and, an unpolitical IG system are critical parts of the puzzle to insure the process works.

Sir, if those two ideas ever come to tangible operational fruition in CAP, please let me know.

For the record, I knew what the Form 2B was when I was still a SMWOG.  It was presented as "2B or not 2B," and "do not pass Go, do not collect $200."

The image that came to mind was from an old TV show...

Branded (in color) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXlUS5-ag_g#)

It was presented to me in my first six months in CAP that a 2B was like getting a dishonourable discharge without ever having an Art. 32 hearing, much less a trial.

And I do know of at least one person who had the 2B axe fall on them...one day the person was a member of my squadron, and one day the person was "one of those you don't talk about."

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on April 09, 2012, 01:45:49 AM
In my opinion, it is a real shame that the organization's corporate culture is such that new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know the form number to decorate a member for significant service.

What IS the form to decorate a member for significant service?

120

An unbiased MARB and, an unpolitical IG system are critical parts of the puzzle to insure the process works.
Sir, if those two ideas ever come to tangible operational fruition in CAP, please let me know.



As the Wing IG, Captain, and on behalf of my IG staff, I take great umbrage at your suggestion that my office is politically biased.  While I understand that any system may be manipulated, I am certain that you cannot substantiate your surmise

Quote from: airdad on April 11, 2012, 10:19:28 PM
As the Wing IG, Captain, and on behalf of my IG staff, I take great umbrage at your suggestion that my office is politically biased.  While I understand that any system may be manipulated, I am certain that you cannot substantiate your surmise

Yes, because that post was ALL about NY wing and NY wing alone. <- sarcasm

It is very well known that (mainly during the TP years) the IG system was used as a political arm to enforce TP's "rules". Is it still being used that way? Maybe, and I would argue in some wings and regions it COULD be, but no one was accusing one person or one wing (like you, and NY wing) of being politicized.

Quote from: airdad on April 11, 2012, 10:19:28 PM
As the Wing IG, Captain, and on behalf of my IG staff, I take great umbrage at your suggestion that my office is politically biased.  While I understand that any system may be manipulated, I am certain that you cannot substantiate your surmise

Sir, I meant no offence to you or to any IG officer in particular, nor really to the office itself.

You and your staff may well have all the integrity that the office needs.  If so, hats off to you, and I hope it spreads from NY Wing to every Wing and Region in CAP, because the CAP needs more fair, apolitical IG officers.

However, I have seen IG's handle adverse personnel matters with everything ranging from indifference to forcing good people out of CAP (or they got disgusted and left).

If what I said sounds cynical, please note that I was a cynic long before I joined CAP.  My wife is an incurable optimist, so we make a good balance. ;)

It's strange - the great leaders I've know have always considered firing someone (in this case a 2B) to be their own failure.  If you're a leader and the only way you can deal with someone is get rid of them, it's your leadership failure.  I agree with them.

Is there a record entry made for someone who initiates a 2B process or for the immediate leader?  Perhaps there should be if not.  Perhaps if the 2B process was considered negative for both parties, it would have a less negative view by members.

I think that anyone who gets involved in a contested 2B action knows that its like a fist-fight: everybody bleeds a little in the process, and if you are lucky, no one gets badly hurt or killed.

Major Lord

The only 2B actions I am aware of was really serious stuff.

Now I have heard rumors from people about 2B actions from being inpolite or excessive sarcasm but I doubt I will ever be involved because I prevent misunderstandings from getting out of control. You have a problem with somebody work it out. Communications will resolve 98% of all 2B events.