CAP Talk

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

This rolling of the BDU, often referred to as "ranger rolling," is prohibited per CAPM 39-1.  However, I recently heard somebody mention that this is only applicable to those BDU caps whose labels say "BDU cap" or something like that.  He went on to say that if the label said "Patrol cap," or "Ranger Hat," you may ranger roll your cap. I did not think that sounded right, but I decided to look into it.

I have one that says "Patrol cap" and my friend has one that says "ranger hat."  I wanted to ranger roll my hat, because without it it sits really, really tall on my head and the only other way to stop that is to pull it down farther, then obviously obstructing my view.  However, I have searched through CAPM 39-1, looked for any pertinent policy letters, googled the subject, searched the forum history here, and checked the CAP Knowledgebase......

....without finding any mention of being able to ranger roll in cases where it says "Patrol cap" or "Ranger hat."

However one could make the argument that because the section of 39-1 dealing with this issue specifically says "BDU cap", that the rule of not rolling the cap is only applicable to those caps that also specifically say "BDU cap" since 39-1 does not make any mention of it when referring to baseball-style hats.


What are your thoughts??

BTW my "Patrol" cap is made by the company PROPPER.

 :D lol  :D

YGBSM! That sounds like some pathetic way to get around the regs just so someone can sport a 'dog bowl' on their hat. Prepare for the wrath of the CAP uniform nazis. (Not me...)

Granted, there will be variations in the pattern. Some crowns may sit taller than others.

Well, lemme rephrase it.  By "ranger rolling" I don't mean in some exaggerated fashion that some people do, to the extent that it is a "dog bowl" as you have called it.  I just mean crimping the top edges just a bit because I guess my hat is made a bit taller than some, and if I try to wear it comfortably while still having the top relatively flat, it ends up feeling and looking like it's about 3 miles high.


I'm not wanting to do it just to get around the regs or to "look cool."  Personally, I think those who ranger roll their cap to the extreme look ridiculous.


Perhaps a better way to ask this is, "Does anyone know a way a BDU cap won't sit so high on their head?"  Should I just look for a different brand or something?

Though I would still like the regs question answered, since I didn't think the guy was right when he said it int he first place.

BTW: MIKE, I don't know if you're laughing at the person who proposed the idea that you could ranger roll patrol caps, or at me for asking it, but I'm looking for actual answers if you have them;  feel free to jump in with constructive comments at any time.

CAP428.

Just don't do it.

Don't look for loop holes....don't try to justify it.  If your cap does not look and feel right....get a standard issue BDU cap.

It's that simple.

I'm not looking for loopholes.

Somebody made the suggestion to me and I didn't think it sounded like it was in reg.  So I was looking for answers, not loopholes.

It is a "standard issue" BDU cap, sold in an MCSS.  The only difference between it and some of my buddies' is the fact that it says "Patrol Cap" on the label and theirs says "BDU cap".  Other than that, they are identical, and it doesn't look any different when worn, other than mine sitting high.

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:35:52 AM
Well, lemme rephrase it.  By "ranger rolling" I don't mean in some exaggerated fashion that some people do, to the extent that it is a "dog bowl" as you have called it.  I just mean crimping the top edges just a bit because I guess my hat is made a bit taller than some, and if I try to wear it comfortably while still having the top relatively flat, it ends up feeling and looking like it's about 3 miles high.


I'm not wanting to do it just to get around the regs or to "look cool."  Personally, I think those who ranger roll their cap to the extreme look ridiculous.


Perhaps a better way to ask this is, "Does anyone know a way a BDU cap won't sit so high on their head?"  Should I just look for a different brand or something?

Though I would still like the regs question answered, since I didn't think the guy was right when he said it int he first place.

BTW: MIKE, I don't know if you're laughing at the person who proposed the idea that you could ranger roll patrol caps, or at me for asking it, but I'm looking for actual answers if you have them.

Basically, the patrol cap is designed with a high cut. This same pattern cap was sported by the late General Matthew Ridgway in the 1950s and it was starched stiff. After the cap became associated with Fidel Castro, the Army ditched it for the OD green ballcap. It made its unstarched comeback with Vietnam jungle fatigues and the BDU.

The way I look at it - and I apologize for sounding unnecessarily harsh in my previous post - as long as the cap doesn't look like it's suffered through 50-mission crush or has a serious case of 'dog bowl' it's OK in my book. If I remember correctly the winter patrol cap sits taller to accomodate the ear flaps, while the summer weight patrol cap has a little shorter crown.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on February 05, 2007, 02:51:41 AM
Basically, the patrol cap is designed with a high cut. This same pattern cap was sported by the late General Matthew Ridgway in the 1950s and it was starched stiff. After the cap became associated with Fidel Castro, the Army ditched it for the OD green ballcap. It made its unstarched comeback with Vietnam jungle fatigues and the BDU.

The way I look at it - and I apologize for sounding unnecessarily harsh in my previous post - as long as the cap doesn't look like it's suffered through 50-mission crush or has a serious case of 'dog bowl' it's OK in my book. If I remember correctly the winter patrol cap sits taller to accomodate the ear flaps, while the summer weight patrol cap has a little shorter crown.

Thank you.  That's what I wanted to know.

Even in the army you will hear the NCO's tell soldiers to remove their "ranger roll" if they didn't go through ranger school.  Different point, those HAWK Mountain goofs should not roll their orange ball caps.  Looks ridiculous.

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 05, 2007, 03:22:43 AM
Different point, those HAWK Mountain goofs should not roll their orange ball caps.  Looks ridiculous.

I agree there especially.  I think rolled ball caps look the worst.  And I don't really see a practical reason there, because ball caps fit so close to the head.

So... does this still mean I can Ranger Roll my beret?

Ha!  I doubt that would fly.  I guess you could try!   >:D If all else fails, you could put some nachos and dip inside it and let people eat out of your nacho-hat "a la Homer".  ;D

(http://www.geocities.com/misskokopuff/Nachohat3.jpg)

Does anyone have a photo of exactly what sort of "rolling" we're saying isn't kosher? 

I found a forum thread at www.military.com that suggests the Ranger Roll may not be authorized in the Army.

Link: http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/80019858/m/9760096970001

Quote from: RiverAux on February 05, 2007, 04:51:23 AM
Does anyone have a photo of exactly what sort of "rolling" we're saying isn't kosher? 

I did a google image search, but came up with nothing.  I'll try to takesome pics of my own and post them here tomorrow.

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM
What are your thoughts??

Buy a hat that fits.

Quote from: shorning on February 05, 2007, 06:57:24 AM

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM
What are your thoughts??

Buy a hat that fits.

It does fit.  It's just too tall.  You don't size a hat for its height.

Anyway, I think you guys are missing the point.  While I was partly wondering about my hat situation, the real question was wether the person that told me a ranger roll was authorized for caps other than those which specifically say "BDU cap" was correct, or if they were simply bending a regulation in a way that was unintended under 39-1.

That is the real question.

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 07:01:17 AM

Quote from: shorning on February 05, 2007, 06:57:24 AM

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM
What are your thoughts??

Buy a hat that fits.

It does fit.  It's just too tall.  You don't size a hat for its height.

Those two terms are mutually exclusive.

Go back and by a standard issue BDU cap.    That is "CAP, Hot Weather"  NSN: 8415-01-393-xxxx (the last 4 will be different depending on size).

Just because something is sold at clothing sales does not make it standard issue.

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 07:01:17 AMAnyway, I think you guys are missing the point.  While I was partly wondering about my hat situation, the real question was wether the person that told me a ranger roll was authorized for caps other than those which specifically say "BDU cap" was correct, or if they were simply bending a regulation in a way that was unintended under 39-1.
That is the real question.

Sure....it meant the camouflaged had that goes with the BDU's....not the squadron ball cap or the beret (the only other two authorized hats in BDUs AFAIK).

But if you go out and buy an after market "patrol cap" or "map cap" or any other "not really a BDU cap...but looks like a BDU cap" it is still a BDU cap and cannot be rolled or crushed.  So your friend was wrong.

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2007, 07:29:29 AM
it is still a BDU cap and cannot be rolled or crushed.  So your friend was wrong.

...and THAT'S the answer I was looking for.  Thank you.

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 07:31:22 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2007, 07:29:29 AM
it is still a BDU cap and cannot be rolled or crushed.  So your friend was wrong.

...and THAT'S the answer I was looking for.  Thank you.

Which is what the reg said in the first place...

Sounds like you're wearing it wrong too, & try some starch. By the way, if you actually believed the logic you started us with, any hat that said patrol or ranger instead of BDU would not be authorized. Obviously that's not that case & you can't use some wording on a lable that won't be readable long to justify breaking regs. 

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AMWhile I was partly wondering about my hat situation, the real question was wether the person that told me a ranger roll was authorized for caps other than those which specifically say "BDU cap" was correct, or if they were simply bending a regulation in a way that was unintended under 39-1.

That is the real question.

The person that told you that is wrong.  "BDU cap" is the standard term to include "Patrol cap".  A "BDU cap" and "Patrol cap" is the exact same cap/hat.  You could even say that "Patrol cap" is the slang term for the "BDU cap".

Tags - MIKE

Quote from: DNall on February 05, 2007, 12:40:43 PM
Sounds like you're wearing it wrong too, & try some starch. By the way, if you actually believed the logic you started us with, any hat that said patrol or ranger instead of BDU would not be authorized. Obviously that's not that case & you can't use some wording on a lable that won't be readable long to justify breaking regs. 

This is the best answer I've seen.  If the guy wants to use his logic to say it's not really a BDU cap, then by his logic it's not authorized.

That being said, they're all the same thing.

My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

^  agree with Becks!  Take the rolls out.  It only makes you look like a wanabe.  If you are having problems wearing your cover properly, I will gladly come to your unit, give a 30 minute presentation and seriously correct you. 

The "Ranger Roll" is not permitted in the Army as well.  AR 670-1 cover military uniform and appearance for Army and it excludes it...   It also gives commanders some authority to make minor modifications to the uniform in field environments - this is how it originated.  The Patrol Cap would be rolled down to come in contact with the top of the head - a lower profile and more contact are made the cap stay in place somewhat better...

Quote from: Becks on February 05, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

So what are you going to say when you ask me that question and I say "Yes"?

Quote from: Rangersigo on February 05, 2007, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Becks on February 05, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

So what are you going to say when you ask me that question and I say "Yes"?

Burn!!!!

Quote from: brasda91 on February 05, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
The person that told you that is wrong.  "BDU cap" is the standard term to include "Patrol cap".  A "BDU cap" and "Patrol cap" is the exact same cap/hat.  You could even say that "Patrol cap" is the slang term for the "BDU cap".

Actually, most of the "BDU caps" were designated as "patrol caps" by the Army. The BDU was primarily designed by the Army, so they made the designations on the uniform pieces. "Patrol cap" is not slang, it's the designated nomenclature for the BDU cover. "BDU cap" is more of a slang term.

Oh. My. Gosh.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler to you people.

I don't roll my cover.

I was speaking with someone and I mentioned that my hat is taller than I thought looked/felt normal.  He said, "You could ranger roll it."  I replied, "That's not authorized."  He said that wasn't the case because my cap said "Patrol cap" and 39-1 says "BDU cap."

I still wasn't convinced so I brought it here for discussion.

Somebody suggested I starch my cap.  I haven't found a need for that because I use a BDU cap stiffener anyway.

It's not that big a deal.  It's not that tall, I was just making conversation with the guy and he suggested ranger rolling and proceded to explain why it was "authorized."





Does that clear anything up for you??????????

Quote from: DNallBy the way, if you actually believed the logic you started us with, any hat that said patrol or ranger instead of BDU would not be authorized.

Did you even bother to read my posts?  The whole point is that I didn't believe his logic and so I brought it here for discussion.

Quote from: shorning
Which is what the reg said in the first place...

We're reading for context here, shorning.  Hypothetically, the discussion point was Is that what the reg stated, or was the wording of "BDU cap" exclusive to patrol caps and ranger hats.  The issue was not what the reg said (obviously rolling is not allowed for BDU caps.)  The issue lied in whether all the similar style camouflage hats were considered BDU caps or whether that term only applied to those specific hats which stated they were so.

Your post is negated.



Correct me if I'm wrong, can't a wing commander authorize the use of uniform items not specifically included in 39-1?  So, hypothetically if, and I say if so you don't jump all over this point like I said it's fact, as you did with the last points made.  IF the manual had used the term "BDU cap" to specifically exclude those similar style hats which say "patrol cap" or "ranger hat," couldn't a wing commander authorize those to be used himself?

Just a thought.  I repeat, a THOUGHT.  Not a statement of belief nor ignorance of regulations.

Quote from: Rangersigo on February 05, 2007, 05:30:12 PM
The "Ranger Roll" is not permitted in the Army as well.  AR 670-1 cover military uniform and appearance for Army and it excludes it...   It also gives commanders some authority to make minor modifications to the uniform in field environments - this is how it originated.  The Patrol Cap would be rolled down to come in contact with the top of the head - a lower profile and more contact are made the cap stay in place somewhat better...

They got rid of that wording during the last revision of 670-1.  Here is all it says in the most recently revised addition:

"(1) The patrol cap (formerly called the BDU cap) is worn with the BDU in field environments when the Kevlar helmet is not worn; on work details; or in other environments where the wear of the beret is impractical, as determined
by the commander. Additionally, personnel in initial training categories who do not wear the black beret (see para 3–5a(3)(b), above) wear the patrol cap with the BDU. The patrol cap is available in the hot-weather and temperate fabrics.

(2) Personnel wear the patrol cap straight on the head so that the cap band creates a straight line around the head, parallel to the ground. The patrol cap will fit snugly and comfortably around the largest part of the head without distortion or excessive gaps. The cap is worn so that no hair is visible on the forehead beneath the cap. At their discretion, individuals may wear the earflaps down during cold weather, except in formation when the commander may
prescribe wear policy (see fig 3–2)".

The part about distortion or excessive gaps may lead one to assume no ranger rolling, but it used to be more clearly stated in earlier uniform manuals, so there really is no policy in the Army, except local policies. 

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 05, 2007, 05:56:47 PM

Quote from: brasda91 on February 05, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
The person that told you that is wrong.  "BDU cap" is the standard term to include "Patrol cap".  A "BDU cap" and "Patrol cap" is the exact same cap/hat.  You could even say that "Patrol cap" is the slang term for the "BDU cap".

Actually, most of the "BDU caps" were designated as "patrol caps" by the Army. The BDU was primarily designed by the Army, so they made the designations on the uniform pieces. "Patrol cap" is not slang, it's the designated nomenclature for the BDU cover. "BDU cap" is more of a slang term.

Hawk....take off you cap and look at the tag....what does it say?  Mine says "Cap, Hot Weather".  Patrol Cap, BDU Cap...it's all the same.

Quote from: Rangersigo on February 05, 2007, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Becks on February 05, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

So what are you going to say when you ask me that question and I say "Yes"?

"Hooah"  ;D

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2007, 07:27:36 PM
Hawk....take off you cap and look at the tag....what does it say?  Mine says "Cap, Hot Weather".  Patrol Cap, BDU Cap...it's all the same.

Mine says the same. But as a military man yourself, you know how the military designates a name for something that quite often doesn't match the label inside.  :)

Quote from: Rangersigo on February 05, 2007, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Becks on February 05, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

So what are you going to say when you ask me that question and I say "Yes"?

Hey, I've spent a considerable amount of time on Benning.  Does that qualify me, too?!  >:D

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 05, 2007, 05:56:47 PM

Quote from: brasda91 on February 05, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
The person that told you that is wrong.  "BDU cap" is the standard term to include "Patrol cap".  A "BDU cap" and "Patrol cap" is the exact same cap/hat.  You could even say that "Patrol cap" is the slang term for the "BDU cap".

Actually, most of the "BDU caps" were designated as "patrol caps" by the Army. The BDU was primarily designed by the Army, so they made the designations on the uniform pieces. "Patrol cap" is not slang, it's the designated nomenclature for the BDU cover. "BDU cap" is more of a slang term.

QuoteQuote from: Rangersigo on Yesterday at 11:30:12 AM
The "Ranger Roll" is not permitted in the Army as well.  AR 670-1 cover military uniform and appearance for Army and it excludes it...   It also gives commanders some authority to make minor modifications to the uniform in field environments - this is how it originated.  The Patrol Cap would be rolled down to come in contact with the top of the head - a lower profile and more contact are made the cap stay in place somewhat better...


They got rid of that wording during the last revision of 670-1.  Here is all it says in the most recently revised addition:

"(1) The patrol cap (formerly called the BDU cap) is worn with the BDU in field environments when the Kevlar helmet is not worn; on work details; or in other environments where the wear of the beret is impractical, as determined
by the commander. Additionally, personnel in initial training categories who do not wear the black beret (see para 3–5a(3)(b), above) wear the patrol cap with the BDU. The patrol cap is available in the hot-weather and temperate fabrics.

(2) Personnel wear the patrol cap straight on the head so that the cap band creates a straight line around the head, parallel to the ground. The patrol cap will fit snugly and comfortably around the largest part of the head without distortion or excessive gaps. The cap is worn so that no hair is visible on the forehead beneath the cap. At their discretion, individuals may wear the earflaps down during cold weather, except in formation when the commander may
prescribe wear policy (see fig 3–2)".

The part about distortion or excessive gaps may lead one to assume no ranger rolling, but it used to be more clearly stated in earlier uniform manuals, so there really is no policy in the Army, except local policies.

When I was on active duty, it was a BDU cap (even though we didn't wear them  ;), read 82nd Airborne  :).  Like alot of changes over the years with the Army, evidently so has the terminolgy that is used to describe and label, the camouflaged hat you wear on your head while in the BDU uniform.  Whatever you call it, NO you cannot "Ranger Roll" it.  And no, the part about excessive gaps has nothing to do in refrence to "Ranger Rolling".  As stated previously, tell your friend no, "Ranger Rolls" are not authorized, no matter what his covers label calls it.

Quote from: brasda91 on February 06, 2007, 01:59:31 PM

Quote from: Rangersigo on February 05, 2007, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Becks on February 05, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
My answer to people who I see rolled their cap;  "Have you been through Fort Benning?  No?  Then unroll your cover."

So what are you going to say when you ask me that question and I say "Yes"?

Hey, I've spent a considerable amount of time on Benning.  Does that qualify me, too?!  >:D

What Bat did you serve or what is your ranger class number - can't answer either then I would say probably not :-)

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

This rolling of the BDU, often referred to as "ranger rolling," is prohibited per CAPM 39-1.  However, I recently heard somebody mention that this is only applicable to those BDU caps whose labels say "BDU cap" or something like that.  He went on to say that if the label said "Patrol cap," or "Ranger Hat," you may ranger roll your cap. I did not think that sounded right, but I decided to look into it.

I have one that says "Patrol cap" and my friend has one that says "ranger hat."  I wanted to ranger roll my hat, because without it it sits really, really tall on my head and the only other way to stop that is to pull it down farther, then obviously obstructing my view.  However, I have searched through CAPM 39-1, looked for any pertinent policy letters, googled the subject, searched the forum history here, and checked the CAP Knowledgebase......

....without finding any mention of being able to ranger roll in cases where it says "Patrol cap" or "Ranger hat."

However one could make the argument that because the section of 39-1 dealing with this issue specifically says "BDU cap", that the rule of not rolling the cap is only applicable to those caps that also specifically say "BDU cap" since 39-1 does not make any mention of it when referring to baseball-style hats.


What are your thoughts??

BTW my "Patrol" cap is made by the company PROPPER.

Because the manual only authorized the BDU cap and not the Ranger or Patrol cap, your point is mute. The latter two are not authorized to begin with.

I guess this is one of the reasons ABUs will be good for CAP and the USAF... It will most likely force members to go out and get the genuine article, versus some cheap knock off.  This assumes there isn't much of a market for the ABU outside of CAP and the USAF... Realizing that ACU and MARPAT knockoffs are out there.

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 07:33:52 PM
Because the manual only authorized the BDU cap and not the Ranger or Patrol cap, your point is mute. The latter two are not authorized to begin with.

A BDU cap and a patrol cap are the same thing. There have been a lot of companies that label those hats as "Ranger hats", but's a misnomer. The Rangers themselves haven't really worn a headgear that carried that designation.

And most of the hats now just say "CAP, HOT WEATHER" or "CAP, COLD WEATHER". The labels are just have different names. Doesn't really change what they are. They're authorized uniform items.

Look inside your own hat. I doubt it will say "BDU cap" on the label.

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 07, 2007, 08:08:02 PM
Look inside your own hat. I doubt it will say "BDU cap" on the label.

CAP, HOT WEATHER BDU

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 07:33:52 PMBecause the manual only authorized the BDU cap and not the Ranger or Patrol cap, your point is mute. The latter two are not authorized to begin with.

Patrol cap; Ranger cap; BDU cap - does it really make a difference? It looks like we're being overly pedantic here.

Just as an example - I have in my hot little hand two articles of clothing labeled: Coveralls, Flyers, Men, Summer, Fire Resistant CWU-27P [color]. These items are not mentioned as such anywhere in the CAPM 39-1. Does that mean I am forbidden from wearing them? Of course not. They are flight suits, and in other regulatory publications are required in specific operational situations. I think the same logic applies to our cap example.

YMMV.

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 07:33:52 PM

Quote from: CAP428 on February 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

This rolling of the BDU, often referred to as "ranger rolling," is prohibited per CAPM 39-1.  However, I recently heard somebody mention that this is only applicable to those BDU caps whose labels say "BDU cap" or something like that.  He went on to say that if the label said "Patrol cap," or "Ranger Hat," you may ranger roll your cap. I did not think that sounded right, but I decided to look into it.

I have one that says "Patrol cap" and my friend has one that says "ranger hat."  I wanted to ranger roll my hat, because without it it sits really, really tall on my head and the only other way to stop that is to pull it down farther, then obviously obstructing my view.  However, I have searched through CAPM 39-1, looked for any pertinent policy letters, googled the subject, searched the forum history here, and checked the CAP Knowledgebase......

....without finding any mention of being able to ranger roll in cases where it says "Patrol cap" or "Ranger hat."

However one could make the argument that because the section of 39-1 dealing with this issue specifically says "BDU cap", that the rule of not rolling the cap is only applicable to those caps that also specifically say "BDU cap" since 39-1 does not make any mention of it when referring to baseball-style hats.


What are your thoughts??

BTW my "Patrol" cap is made by the company PROPPER.

Because the manual only authorized the BDU cap and not the Ranger or Patrol cap, your point is mute. The latter two are not authorized to begin with.

You haven't been following this very closely, have you?  The general consensus has come that a patrol cap is authorized because it is the same hat, just a different label.

Quote from: MIKE on February 07, 2007, 08:01:47 PM
I guess this is one of the reasons ABUs will be good for CAP and the USAF... It will most likely force members to go out and get the genuine article, versus some cheap knock off.  This assumes there isn't much of a market for the ABU outside of CAP and the USAF... Realizing that ACU and MARPAT knockoffs are out there.

PROPPER is a certified AAFES uniform supplier.  They sell the "patrol" cap.

you people seriously need to get a [darn] life.  I'll give you an active duty perspective.  A long time ago that is long since passed i was in the civil air patrol I'm active air force now and nothing you learn in CAP helps you in the Air Force i'm just letting you know now so if anyone is thinking about enlisting then don't go into basic or even to the recruiter's office thinking you're bad [mess] becuase you'll be brought down quickly and for christ's sakes find something better to talk about than your [darn] hat

Quote from: A1C_Lawson on February 19, 2007, 05:47:20 AM
you people seriously need to get a [darn] life.  I'll give you an active duty perspective.  A long time ago that is long since passed i was in the civil air patrol I'm active air force now and nothing you learn in CAP helps you in the Air Force i'm just letting you know now so if anyone is thinking about enlisting then don't go into basic or even to the recruiter's office thinking you're bad [mess] because you'll be brought down quickly and for christ's sakes find something better to talk about than your [darn] hat

Lawson....what is more pathetic....people arguing over a stupid hat...or someone wasting his time telling people they are wasting their time?

I too am active duty and what you say about CAP is completely false.  The CAP cadet program does teach you a lot about the USAF and will help you out LATER in your career.  Many of the things you learned (or should have learned) as a cadet will be presented to you again when you go to Airman Leadership School, the NCO Academy and the Senior NCO Academy.

Does the USAF spend hours and hours arguing over ranger rolls?  NO....but neither does CAP......CAPTALK is neither CAP nor the USAF.  We are passionate about our subject matter and will talk your ear off....just like any bull session you may have in the barracks or at the E-Club.  That is all that we are doing here.....letting off steam.

Lawson,im defending lord monar, cap does help you in the air force, in fact just a week ago a cadet from my squadron was accepted into the air force academy. also if youenlist with the mitchell award into the AF you will be an immediate e3 after basic so go ahead and believe your idea about cap and we'll believe our's

Quote from: swya on February 19, 2007, 06:17:41 AM
Lawson,im defending lord monar, cap does help you in the air force, in fact just a week ago a cadet from my squadron was accepted into the air force academy. also if youenlist with the mitchell award into the AF you will be an immediate e3 after basic so go ahead and believe your idea about cap and we'll believe our's

Please do not unload on this Cadet, it is a choice that he makes to post here.  There is a tendency here to sometimes turn on our young.  I know it is a case of a 13 year old cadet posting advice to active duty USAF personnel, but do not hammer the point.

I do not know him, but I can see some post being made knocking this, what reads to me, to be a heartfelt point.  Someone dedicated to the idea of CAP.

Let us work to nurture those that come to these forums because they believe in CAP, especially when it is a cadet.

thank you im sorry wont happen again

When I was in Army OBC a few of the officers were wearing the ranger rolls.  A seargent came over to them and commenced to chewing them out.  He was passionate about this because he felt the officers did not deserve to wear a ranger roll because they had never gone through ranger training, and that disrespected the real rangers.  When I heard that explained to them I realized why traditions are made and what it means to people involved with those traditions.

There are no Army rangers in the AF or CAP.   To try and dress in their uniform tradition even though cool is disrespectful to them. 

I also have a small head and to wear most hats looks stupid, so I can agree that a ranger role makes it fit better, but that does not make it right to wear.

Quote from: desert rat on February 19, 2007, 07:05:41 PM
There are no Army rangers in the AF...

Well, that's not exactly true.  There are Air Force personnel that have been through the Ranger course.  It's not common, but they are out there.

Quote from: shorning on February 19, 2007, 07:23:24 PM

Quote from: desert rat on February 19, 2007, 07:05:41 PM
There are no Army rangers in the AF...

Well, that's not exactly true.  There are Air Force personnel that have been through the Ranger course.  It's not common, but they are out there.

In addition...the SF guys that run the Silver Flag program out of Creech AFB do "ranger roll" their hats.  So...you can't say...CAP can't do it because the USAF doesn't do it.

I don't care one way or the other....if it's okay with your squadron/group/wing commander...then go with it.

BUT....if one guy in your unit does it....everyone should do it.  The "cool" factor does have it's place...but it needs to be controled.

Okay, okay, okay...I know this is like forever old, but I didn't want to start a new thread.  Maybe I should have.

I just found it interesting, while scanning through AFI 36-2903 (AF uniform manual) (http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/afi36-2903.pdf) that it specifically says:

Quote
Headgear (BDU Cap) Mandatory

Squarely on the head with no hair protruding in front of the cap; when not
being worn, may be stowed in either of the lower cargo pockets on the
trousers. BDU caps required for all deployments, field training, mobility
exercises and recalls. Hat may not be pushed, rolled, folded or tucked in.
(e.g.; Ranger Fold) Plain without design.

It actually refers to "RANGER FOLD" in the AFI.  I'm impressed that they went so far as to call this out specifically.

FYI, Stonewall is referring to CAP National Boards 2006, Item 19, Point 4.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2006_Aug_NB.pdf

"All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green."

And it does't mention rolling either....

Quote from: A1C_Lawson on February 19, 2007, 05:47:20 AM
you people seriously need to get a [darn] life.  I'll give you an active duty perspective.  A long time ago that is long since passed i was in the civil air patrol I'm active air force now and nothing you learn in CAP helps you in the Air Force i'm just letting you know now so if anyone is thinking about enlisting then don't go into basic or even to the recruiter's office thinking you're bad [mess] becuase you'll be brought down quickly and for christ's sakes find something better to talk about than your [darn] hat

I'd bet a lot of people hear think it is funny to hear an A1C trying to tell them about active duty, given that they were AD before you were even born.

it's also funny seeing somebody reply to a 2 year old post, from a person who hasn't been back on the forum since the day he posted.  :)

Quote from: whatevah on June 02, 2009, 04:07:37 AM
it's also funny seeing somebody reply to a 2 year old post, from a person who hasn't been back on the forum since the day he posted.  :)

True.  ;D

Quote from: whatevah on June 02, 2009, 04:07:37 AM
it's also funny seeing somebody reply to a 2 year old post, from a person who hasn't been back on the forum since the day he posted.  :)

Let's just call it nostalgia.  :angel:

Quote from: Rotorhead on June 02, 2009, 04:12:57 AM

Quote from: whatevah on June 02, 2009, 04:07:37 AM
it's also funny seeing somebody reply to a 2 year old post, from a person who hasn't been back on the forum since the day he posted.  :)

True.  ;D

Yeah, don't worry Scott, I too would love to have a talk with that disgruntled young A1C (probably SrA now) face to face.   I may even leave a piece for you to chew on.

Take a number... and where are the baseball bats and 2X4s?  >:D ;D

Quote from: desert rat on February 19, 2007, 07:05:41 PM
When I was in Army OBC a few of the officers were wearing the ranger rolls.  A seargent came over to them and commenced to chewing them out.  He was passionate about this because he felt the officers did not deserve to wear a ranger roll because they had never gone through ranger training, and that disrespected the real rangers. 
There are no Army rangers in the AF or CAP. 

Huh? There are no Officers that are Rangers? every active duty Infantry officer is required to attend ranger School after graduating from IOBC. Its not an option for them., The Ranger Regimental Commander, and his staff. They all have to be rangers in order to get the job

And yes the USAF does send PJ's and TACP airmen to ranger school. but not SF airmen.

Ya know, I didnt even notice that this was an old post

Do baseball bats and 2x4's violate CPPT?

Quote from: BillB on June 02, 2009, 02:23:57 PM
Do baseball bats and 2x4's violate CPPT?

They usually do... if you actually use 'em!  >:D ;D

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 02, 2009, 02:05:24 PM

Quote from: desert rat on February 19, 2007, 07:05:41 PM
When I was in Army OBC a few of the officers were wearing the ranger rolls.  A seargent came over to them and commenced to chewing them out.  He was passionate about this because he felt the officers did not deserve to wear a ranger roll because they had never gone through ranger training, and that disrespected the real rangers. 
There are no Army rangers in the AF or CAP. 

Huh? There are no Officers that are Rangers? every active duty Infantry officer is required to attend ranger School after graduating from IOBC. Its not an option for them., The Ranger Regimental Commander, and his staff. They all have to be rangers in order to get the job

And yes the USAF does send PJ's and TACP airmen to ranger school. but not SF airmen.

Ya know, I didnt even notice that this was an old post

Actually, AF SF Airmen DO get sent to Ranger school.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 02, 2009, 02:05:24 PMYa know, I didnt even notice that this was an old post

Yes, there is even a pre-Ranger course for AF Security Forces.

A 2008 article (http://www.moody.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123124517)

A 2004 article (http://www001.lasvegassun.com/news/2004/mar/12/airmen-put-to-the-test-in-army-pre-ranger-course/)

Quote"Those that graduate (from) Ranger school can take the knowledge and expertise that they learn there and bring it back to Air Force security forces units," said Lt. Mark Douglas, a Ranger-qualified airman and a pre-Ranger course instructor.

Very interesting. We dont let MP's go to ranger school unless they have aninside hook up. Why do we let SF Airmen go?

mission requirements

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 03, 2009, 05:33:11 AM
Very interesting. We dont let MP's go to ranger school unless they have aninside hook up. Why do we let SF Airmen go?

Not that it's the norm, but I have personally known Army MPs to go to Ranger School.

As for SF Airmen, they don't just stand gates, guard nukes or patrol flight lines anymore.

Plus, Ranger School is defined as a "Combat Leadership Course".

From the course description:

QuoteThe purpose of the course is learning to soldier as a combat leader while enduring the great mental and psychological stresses and physical fatigue of combat; the Ranger Instructors (RI) create and cultivate such a physical and mental environment.

As an example, for this drill weekend, my ANG SF Squadron is being picked up by Army Blackhawks this morning and being flown to a training area where we will conduct an overnight FTX that mostly involves day and night land nav.  Doesn't sound like your typical SF mission does it?

Quote from: Stonewall on June 03, 2009, 01:19:20 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 03, 2009, 05:33:11 AM
Very interesting. We dont let MP's go to ranger school unless they have aninside hook up. Why do we let SF Airmen go?

Not that it's the norm, but I have personally known Army MPs to go to Ranger School.

As for SF Airmen, they don't just stand gates, guard nukes or patrol flight lines anymore.

Plus, Ranger School is defined as a "Combat Leadership Course".

From the course description:

QuoteThe purpose of the course is learning to soldier as a combat leader while enduring the great mental and psychological stresses and physical fatigue of combat; the Ranger Instructors (RI) create and cultivate such a physical and mental environment.

As an example, for this drill weekend, my ANG SF Squadron is being picked up by Army Blackhawks this morning and being flown to a training area where we will conduct an overnight FTX that mostly involves day and night land nav.  Doesn't sound like your typical SF mission does it?

Doesn't sound like anything that really requires Ranger school. Good training, yes, but you don't need it to know field work.

Ranger school does not make one a Ranger, either. I've talked to a couple soldiers that have actually served in the Ranger battalions. There's a lot more to it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 03, 2009, 01:51:01 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on June 03, 2009, 01:19:20 PM
Not that it's the norm, but I have personally known Army MPs to go to Ranger School.

As for SF Airmen, they don't just stand gates, guard nukes or patrol flight lines anymore.

Plus, Ranger School is defined as a "Combat Leadership Course".

From the course description:

QuoteThe purpose of the course is learning to soldier as a combat leader while enduring the great mental and psychological stresses and physical fatigue of combat; the Ranger Instructors (RI) create and cultivate such a physical and mental environment.

As an example, for this drill weekend, my ANG SF Squadron is being picked up by Army Blackhawks this morning and being flown to a training area where we will conduct an overnight FTX that mostly involves day and night land nav.  Doesn't sound like your typical SF mission does it?

Doesn't sound like anything that really requires Ranger school. Good training, yes, but you don't need it to know field work.

Ranger school does not make one a Ranger, either. I've talked to a couple soldiers that have actually served in the Ranger battalions. There's a lot more to it.

I think Kirt was merely saying that his SF unit is not exactly "playing parade ground cops" as one might think of SF.  Or at least, they're out there conducting training that is a little "out of the ordinary" for an AF SF unit.

I think he has more than a passing familiarity with Ranger School and the Infantry.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 03, 2009, 01:51:01 PMDoesn't sound like anything that really requires Ranger school. Good training, yes, but you don't need it to know field work.

You're correct.  Ranger School is not necessary to do these things.  I was implying that we (SF) do missions similar to that of the Infantry.  You don't need a Ranger Tab (i.e. the School) to perform an Infantry mission, but it certainly is does help.

Quote from: Stonewall on June 03, 2009, 03:39:00 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 03, 2009, 01:51:01 PMDoesn't sound like anything that really requires Ranger school. Good training, yes, but you don't need it to know field work.

You're correct.  Ranger School is not necessary to do these things.  I was implying that we (SF) do missions similar to that of the Infantry.  You don't need a Ranger Tab (i.e. the School) to perform an Infantry mission, but it certainly is does help.

Ah, gotcha. I've seen more than a few that think that it's the only way to be Infantry.

BTW, my Squadron Commander is a graduate of Army Ranger School, Airborne and Air Assault.

Also, as an FYI - a couple of articles about Air Force Security Forces' specialty missions within Special Operations.

DAGRE Story 2007 (http://www2.afsoc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123059047)


DAGRE story 2008 (http://www.919sow.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123084206)

4 pages folks..........

Quote from: citizensoldier on June 03, 2009, 06:17:57 PM
4 pages folks..........

And 3+ years.  So?

Well, 2+ anyways.

Quote from: citizensoldier on June 03, 2009, 06:17:57 PM
4 pages folks..........

Thanks for helping to make it five!

I'm from Wing, I'm here to help.  ;D

Quote from: swamprat86 on June 03, 2009, 06:49:01 PM
I'm from Wing, I'm here to help.  ;D

You owe me another keyboard......

I see MIKE in here....LOCKAGE!!!