This is being sent from a mobile device, please excuse
My fat fingers or typos.
I have two questions actually.
1) does CAP utilize a merit demerit system like every other scholastic military system? If so, where can I find the regs?
2) if not, is there anything that says we (speaking on a Squadron level) cannot implement such a system? My frustration is that cadets seem not to wear uniform properly, cut hair, (list goes on) and are promoted because come promotion board time things change :) but there is nothing in place that says: well cadet we show here you havent been wearing your uniform properly or you have 50 demerits to your name. Yes they pass tests and yes they do their physical requirements but in my o pinion it guess beyond that. If a cadet cant wear his uniform properly and the worse we do is tell them about it, where is discipline fall in? I did this when I was in ROTC most all do. Come 10 demerits you start learning how to wear it real quick.
Am I off?
Thanks
There is no regs on a merit/demerit system.
You can use them if you choose....I know of some units that do.
YOU CANNOT USE THEM as part of the promotion system!
The factors that you are judging in a merit/demerit system are the same factors you should be considering each time a cadet is ready for promotion. If a can't does not wear his uniform properly he should be told and that information should be retained and feed back given via a CAPF 50. If the cadet can't learn to do what he is supposed to do....then you don't promote him. That is and always has been part of the promotion process.
Just passing the tests are not only criteria for getting promoted.
But if you are suggesting that a reg be made that says something like "you can't get promoted if you have any demerits on the books" then you are adding promotion requirments and that is agains 52-16.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 28, 2012, 07:59:37 PM
There is no regs on a merit/demerit system.
You can use them if you choose....I know of some units that do.
YOU CANNOT USE THEM as part of the promotion system!
The factors that you are judging in a merit/demerit system are the same factors you should be considering each time a cadet is ready for promotion. If a can't does not wear his uniform properly he should be told and that information should be retained and feed back given via a CAPF 50. If the cadet can't learn to do what he is supposed to do....then you don't promote him. That is and always has been part of the promotion process.
Just passing the tests are not only criteria for getting promoted.
But if you are suggesting that a reg be made that says something like "you can't get promoted if you have any demerits on the books" then you are adding promotion requirments and that is agains 52-16.
Read this post carefully. It is very important.
Some people are repulsed at the idea of merits/demerits. I never had much of a problem with them. You just have to recognize that it is much more difficult to use this kind of a system than it appears on the surface.
If your rewards aren't attractive enough, or the punishments not severe enough, then the system will not alter behavior. Having the punishments be too harsh is going to drive people away and make them afraid to make mistakes, which is counterproductive to a program designed to LET cadets learn from their mistakes.
Having the rewards be awesome is fine, but also realize that having exciting rewards that are denied to those who have too many demerits can also be listed as "too severe" of a punishment. For instance, if you're going to bring the cadets to go rapelling with Chuck Norris, and you deny that to a cadet because his gig line wasn't straight, then you can assume you're probably going to lose that cadet.
I agree - you could use them for internal things like Cadet of the Month / Quarter / Year, etc., but not for promotions
or other things that have published, objective criteria.
Good advice above... Fwiw, there was a recent discussion about this here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14505.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14505.0) More good info there.
WIWAC Commander (Oh god, first time using that line!), I kept an excel spreadsheet that had all the cadets listed and a weekly breakdown. That way I would know how many people show up regularly, AS WELL as marking things like incorrect uniform, "gigs" during inspections etc.
They weren't anything formal, but they certainly played into promotions when I would mention that "Cadet Slopy wore the incorrect uniform 2/9 of the last weeks, had his hair out of spec for 3/9, and had issues X, Y, Z during these weeks".
If denied, the cadet should (as mentioned above) get a copy of their review board results with those comments.
WIWA CDC I used a merit system (no demerits). When a cadet excelled at something; did well on an inspection, passed a test with 90%+, was a good role model, etc. They would receive a "CAP Buck", they would then use that "CAP Buck" or a bunch of "CAP Bucks" at the squadron store where they could purchase a number of different things, from insignia and patches for their uniforms to small gear items like whistles, signal mirrors, lanyards, etc.
It worked very well, all the CP staff carried a stash of "CAP Bucks" and when a cadet did well, they would sign it (to make sure that only originals would be floating around) and hand it to the cadet.
There was another thread that mentioned using 341s as a form of merit/demerits. I was going through some of my old stuff and found the blank 341 I was issued for Illinois Wing Summer Encampment OTS in 1981. I also still have my old maroon ball cap from that year as well. 8)
Good points everyone.
Keep in mind that some of us who have come from various places, this is the system we have grown up in so even though I/we volunteer in CAP, it's never really bred out of you and so it's hard sometimes to fully understand the opposing sides of why it shouldn't be.
With that note, don't get me wrong, CAP has many functions and Aerospace Education and training is one of them. I am not trying to suggest we coup or revamp the system nor am I saying a Merit/Demit should overrule any exams or other criteria. Neither am I saying we should use it for every little thing we can find to use it on, but I am thinking of it as a way to supplement the current system not remove the system, [like I said] every scholastic military system that I know of (except CAP) utilizes this for the very reason of making sure we have a documented paper trail that if this particular Cadet has a trend of Uniform issues, moral issues, disrespect etc. its documented as such, and we can go back to those logs and show that.
Its easy to say Cadet Smith (hope nobody in here with that name?) just hasn't been doing a good job and seems to disrespect his superior cadets and not wear his uniform properly what should we do?, then to look on the log and see he has 100 demerits and you know there is a problem then, its blatant and that is the reason for it. You can't mentally follow or keep track of that many cadets and work a normal civilian job while keeping it buffered in your mental RAM until the next meeting. but then again I have the memory of a fish, so that doesn't say a lot for me :)
I'll have to look up this CAPF341, not familiar with it.
Quote from: kcbrent on March 29, 2012, 02:52:51 AM
Cadet Smith
We usually use Cadet Snuffy or SM bagODoughnuts.
Quote
I'll have to look up this CAPF341, not familiar with it.
No such beast, a mistake on my part. I was never told the real name other than "341," and assumed it was a CAP form.
It is actually AETC Form 341
see: http://teacher.ocps.net/richard.lucero/Text/341.pdf (http://teacher.ocps.net/richard.lucero/Text/341.pdf)
Quote from: kcbrent on March 29, 2012, 02:52:51 AMI'll have to look up this CAPF341, not familiar with it.
You'll never find it by that name. It doesn't exist. Scroll up and read the first several posts, and you'll see that what is being discussed is an AETC 341, used by the Air Force.
Okay....let's talk about the merits and demerits of a merit/demerit system.
First: The REWARDS and PUNISHMENTS must be defineded in advanced.
What do you win, when do you win it?
What do you lose, when do you lose it?
Second: The "point system" must be defined.
What sort of behavior resluts in a demerit? Is there a scale? Being 5 minutes late is 1 demerit, being 1 day late is 20. Having your rank 1/8 off is 1 point off...having it upside down on the wrong part of the lapel or missing is 2000 demerits.
What sort of behavior resluts in a merit?
Third: How do the merits/demerit accumilate...do one good thing get 1 point do two bad things for -2 points....for a total of -1. Or is it just happy faces and frouny faces? Do you keep track of all of them?
Fourth: Is there a way of working off demerits so the cadet can avoid the punishment. Is there a way the cadet can earn merits so he can work toward the reward?
In the USAF the AETCF 341 is simply a way to record and report poor or good behavior to the MTI. So at the end of the day he can guage how well the trainee is adapting to USAF life. There is a clear understanding of what will get you a merit/demerit and there is a clear understanding of what will happen to you if you get too many (IIRC three in a single day gets you letter of counseling...which is not a good thing in BMTS).
Personally....I don't use it in my program....It is just too much work. YMMV.
We have two, sometimes three, flights in our unit. I instituted a "Flight of the Week" program designed to reward the flight on their adherence to the concepts layed out in the cadet oath, CORE VALUES and Three Missions of CAP.
Cadets can earn points for their Flight by wearing uniforms properly, advancing in rank, outstanding displays of behavior that is becoming. As mentioned in an above post, it is spelled out on a rubric and points are tallied.
The lesson I am trying to teach is that following the correct path (living up to the cadet oath) is its own reward in many ways. I only subtract points from this for extreme issues (like if a cadet is punished at school by the school...since we meet there and their being punished there reflects on the program).
In life, many times, punishments are "built in." If you don't pay attention in class, you miss what you need and...logically, you fail. (Lacks the Value of Excellence) If you cheat on daily assignments and don't learn based on the spirit of the assignment, again you "don't get the needed materials" and you FAIL. (and clear Intergity issue) If i tell you to stop leaning back in a wooden chair, and you fail to comply despite being remined several times and even yelled at, and you fall and get hurt...then you were PUNISHED by the situation (a clear failure to obey an Officer)
Most times, when a Cadet is in the right and following instruction and advice, they cannot lose. The FLIGHT OF THE WEEK activity shows the power of that statement.
Everytime I read posts like his, I get hope for my squadron. Then I remember I tried that (or some reasonable factsimile[spelling fail?]). ::)
Ohhhh okkk, 341 exactly what I/we used, I never knew the name of it...its like being reunited with a long lost friend that you never really liked :D
Well thanks everyone for your links and inputs.
Quote from: kcbrent on March 29, 2012, 02:52:51 AM
Its easy to say Cadet Smith (hope nobody in here with that name?) just hasn't been doing a good job and seems to disrespect his superior cadets and not wear his uniform properly what should we do?, then to look on the log and see he has 100 demerits and you know there is a problem then, its blatant and that is the reason for it. You can't mentally follow or keep track of that many cadets and work a normal civilian job while keeping it buffered in your mental RAM until the next meeting. but then again I have the memory of a fish, so that doesn't say a lot for me :)
If Cadet Smith has 100 demerits, then shame on his leadership for not fixing the problem. Leaders are there to lead, not carry a clipboard and check off mistakes to hold against the cadets.