I was at a wing event and was surprised to see a senior major wearing the AF style uniform and also a beard. When I returned home I reviewed 39-1 just to see if something had changed. I have nothing against beards and the CAP has made styles of uniform available where beards may be worn. If we wear the AF style uniform, let's abide by the conditions.
Did you approach him and let him know that he might not be exactly following the rules? I have a beard, and certainly would have.
Were there any Air Force personnel there, and, if so, did they see this member?
I wonder if he could be a renegade continuing to wear the CSU. 8) :P
CSU was never authorized for us barbate folks, so he's still wrong.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 01, 2012, 10:14:20 PM
CSU was never authorized for us barbate folks, so he's still wrong.
I forgot... :o
CAP special operations perhaps
Shaving waiver... :o
C'mon. Phil. That gets you 1/8"? 1/4"? Surely not as much as I wear, even at its shortest.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 02, 2012, 02:36:55 AM
C'mon. Phil. That gets you 1/8"? 1/4"? Surely not as much as I wear, even at its shortest.
Some people see a shaving waiver as a license to get away with it. Of course we don't
have shaving waivers in CAP... >:D
While picking up my son from his meeting, I, too, saw a senior member in an AF style uniform with a goatee. Not being a CAP member, I did not say anything, but rather, trusted that the other senior members will square this person away. I'll give it time. My cadet son noticed it too, and I told him to drive on, and let the SMs handle it. If I see him continue this practice, I will approach the Squadron Commander and bring it to his attention. I believe that he just made 2Lt, so I find it hard to believe that he does not know the regs. I have seen this SM in CAP distinctive uniforms before, and this is the first time I saw him in an AF style uniform.
I didn't realize how much it would bother me until I actually saw it. The old NCO in me started to come out. Respect the uniform.
Not that it makes it right for CAP (because there's not a provision for it in our regulations) but facial hair not a complete abomination for Air Force uniforms. The Air Force has waivers for certain circumstances, religious observations being one of them.
(http://www.tinker.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070824-F-4800M-114.jpg) (http://www.tinker.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070824-F-4800M-114.jpg)
He certainly wasn't Seikh... Kinda looked like a shorter version of Rob Pincus.
Quote from: SPD6696 on March 14, 2012, 10:13:06 PM
He certainly wasn't Seikh...
The AF Captain pictured is wearing a Jewish chaplain badge.
OK, I didn't bother looking closely at the photo. Besides, that's AF, not CAP, and kind of irrelevant to the topic.
Regardless, the CAP SM I was referring to (not the Chaplain in the photo), isn't a Chaplain, and is simply sporting a Cool Guy Goatee.
Quote from: SPD6696 on March 15, 2012, 12:16:01 AM... is simply sporting a Cool Guy Goatee.
I wonder if members of the Canadien Civil Air Patrol wear cool guy goatee? 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 15, 2012, 12:31:56 PM
Quote from: SPD6696 on March 15, 2012, 12:16:01 AM... is simply sporting a Cool Guy Goatee.
I wonder if members of the Canadien Civil Air Patrol wear cool guy goatee? 8)
They may not, but I bet it's A-OK with the Brazil CAP.
I'm jewish, i have a beard, and i'm in CAP. Since i am married my religion says that the beard is almost as essential as a wedding band. Since CAP does not discriminate, i am allowed to grow a beard. Read into religious allowances, i have a cadet in my squadron that in BDU's wears his yamaka under his bdu cover.
See, the thing about the beard in AF style uniform in CAP is that it is disallowed. No religious exception for it, because we have a set of uniforms that beards are allowed in. We don't discriminate based on religious preferences, but it's expected that those with religious preferences follow our rules by wearing a uniform designed to accommodate them.
Then why doesn't big brother make all of those who can't shave in the US Air Force wear a distinct uniform?
Quote from: Littleguy on March 16, 2012, 10:08:15 PM
Then why doesn't big brother make all of those who can't shave wear a distinct uniform?
Well, it's hard to
make anything happen.
I have a beard, and wear the prescribed distinct uniform.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 16, 2012, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 16, 2012, 10:08:15 PM
Then why doesn't big brother make all of those who can't shave wear a distinct uniform?
Well, it's hard to make anything happen.
I have a beard, and wear the prescribed distinct uniform.
My question, poorly phrased, meant to talk about in the US Air Force, not CAP. Currently editing to reword to match what I meant to say.
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 15, 2012, 12:31:56 PM
I wonder if members of the Canadien Civil Air Patrol wear cool guy goatee? 8)
There is no Canadian CAP; however, their Armed Forces allow beards and religious headwear.
(http://www.worldsikhnews.com/20%20August%202008/Image/tatla.jpg)
Lieutenant Jasbir Singh Tatla, RCAF, the first Sikh to be a commissioned officer in the regular Canadian Forces.
Quote from: CyBorg on March 17, 2012, 05:10:02 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 15, 2012, 12:31:56 PM
I wonder if members of the Canadien Civil Air Patrol wear cool guy goatee? 8)
There is no Canadian CAP; however, their Armed Forces allow beards and religious headwear.
(http://www.worldsikhnews.com/20%20August%202008/Image/tatla.jpg)
Lieutenant Jasbir Singh Tatla, RCAF, the first Sikh to be a commissioned officer in the regular Canadian Forces.
Well, they
kind of have a CAP: www.casara.ca/ (http://www.casara.ca/) I am not sure on their policies on facial hair. Would CAP be obligated to deny wear of the USAF style uniform to women with facial hirsutism? How about African American men with Pseudofolliculitis barbae? You racist sexist ba****ds!
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on March 17, 2012, 08:10:24 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on March 17, 2012, 05:10:02 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 15, 2012, 12:31:56 PM
I wonder if members of the Canadien Civil Air Patrol wear cool guy goatee? 8)
There is no Canadian CAP; however, their Armed Forces allow beards and religious headwear.
(http://www.worldsikhnews.com/20%20August%202008/Image/tatla.jpg)
Lieutenant Jasbir Singh Tatla, RCAF, the first Sikh to be a commissioned officer in the regular Canadian Forces.
Well, they kind of have a CAP: www.casara.ca/ (http://www.casara.ca/) I am not sure on their policies on facial hair. Would CAP be obligated to deny wear of the USAF style uniform to women with facial hirsutism? How about African American men with Pseudofolliculitis barbae? You racist sexist ba****ds!
Major Lord
Agreed!
I am sure if someone were so inclined to bring it up to CAP-USAF they could get approval to have a beard in the USAF style uniform for religious reasons.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 18, 2012, 12:41:12 AM
I am sure if someone were so inclined to bring it up to CAP-USAF they could get approval to have a beard in the USAF style uniform for religious reasons.
IF anyone in CAP had the moxie to bring up
anything about uniforms to CAP-USAF.
Uniforms are the 1,000 lb gorilla in the room no-one wants to touch with the USAF.
I remember in BMT that some African-American men could get a shaving waiver because their beards would ingrow and get painfully infected, but how that would apply to CAP is anyone's guess.
And I think people are a lot more afraid of CAP USAF than they should be altogether.
Quote from: CyBorg on March 18, 2012, 02:34:22 AM
IF anyone in CAP had the moxie to bring up anything about uniforms to CAP-USAF.
Uniforms are the 1,000 lb gorilla in the room no-one wants to touch with the USAF.
I think you may not understand the process.
I chat with the CAP-USAF commander all the time about uniforms. Heck, he sits on the National Uniform Committee and spends a whole lot of hours listening to us talk about uniforms.
But the CAP-USAF commander does not and can not speak for the Air Force when it comes to our uniforms. I'm sure his voice is influential within the Air Force, but the ultimate authority is at the Air Staff level, several levels above the CAP-USAF commander.
When the NB is ready, they will submit any requested changes through channels, starting with CAP-USAF. The AF has an internal staff study process they will use in considering our requests and will make their decisions in good faith and in the best interests of CAP and the USAF.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 18, 2012, 04:26:20 AM
And I think people are a lot more afraid of CAP USAF than they should be altogether.
I don't know if it's that so much...a heck of a lot of people in CAP don't know what CAP-USAF
is, much less what it
does.I think that if there is a fear of CAP-USAF, it can be subdivided into two factions:
- The corporatists who fear that Big Blue will come in, take direct control like in the "old" days, and make us "too military."
- The traditionalists who fear that Big Blue will finally decide it cannot afford us/put up with us any longer/we are irrelevant and say, "OK, CAP Corporation, you're on your own. No more Air Force financial support, no more AF uniforms, no more access to bases, no more cadets, no more airplanes (you want 'em, you buy 'em), and take our name off your seal!
What I was getting at is that those of us who were in during the imposition of the berry boards (or immediately thereafter, like me) and remember the shock wave of horrible morale that rippled through all of CAP (something I don't think we've ever really recovered from) are so skittish about something similar happening again that they don't even want to mention the word
uniform to
anyone in the AF. It's not just CAP-USAF.
Ned, God bless him, does his best to keep us in the know. I believe that. However, even a Jedi Master doesn't know everything. I believe he and I had a chat on here about there not really being a "go to" person in the AF on this topic.
So the CAP is acting like the puppy that peed on the carpet, got blasted and is now laying there belly up begging not to be hit again but not showing much in terms of self correction.
Looks like the real problem is the USAF. They don't want to take the time to appoint a single person that can "make a decision" on things that deal with CAP.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 18, 2012, 01:38:57 PM
Looks like the real problem is the USAF. They don't want to take the time to appoint a single person that can "make a decision" on things that deal with CAP.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 18, 2012, 01:38:57 PM
Looks like the real problem is the USAF. They don't want to take the time to appoint a single person that can "make a decision" on things that deal with CAP.
I would think the AF has greater priorities to deal with than some CAP members quest to wear the the latest, greatest military "wanna be" uniforms. Personally, I don't see why CAP members can't have a beard with ANY authorized uniform, as long as it is "distinctive" enough. >:D Perhaps the AF is being too harsh with grooming and weight standards :-\.
HOWEVER, I don't think CAP has a strong interest in changing uniforms quickly anyways. Cost consideration for the membership
should be of great concern. I think a previous thread discussed CAP's potential access to get new BDU uniforms for free from the USAF. I haven't heard anymore about this, but another 3 to 5 years of BDU use seems reasonable. Frankly I don't worry about this since I wear the Blue BDU's, golf shirts, and white/grey's because I am in the "
Civil Air Patrol" and like as much distinctiveness as possible ;) (and it's interesting that others in our wing that also are retired 20+ year military career members also aren't wearing AF blue or BDU's).
RM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 18, 2012, 01:38:57 PM
Looks like the real problem is the USAF. They don't want to take the time to appoint a single person that can "make a decision" on things that deal with CAP.
I will play devils advocate here for a second.
Where is CAP's
one person?
Our situation is ever so more confusing and muddled than the AF could ever be.
We have the NB and the NEC who meet at different times of the year, and can do drastically different things concerning uniforms. (I.E. the support for the CSU on the NB and the removal of that uniform by the NEC) Then we have NHQ that randomly puts out ICLs and does not update the uniform reg, and a Nat/CC that has an unclear role at best in the uniform
problem debacle.
Maybe if we cleaned our own house, the AF would be more willing to respond in kind...
Well then maybe we shouldn't have a uniform committee, we should have one person that knows uniforms, and that one person should work with USAF to get everything hashed out and that one person controlls the 39-1 with ma blue.
Ah, but that one person could be held responsible and that would never fly in CAP(so to speak). Far better to have a committee(preferably large), so that any decisions could be blamed on a group and not an individual.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the single person in USAF who could make uniform decisions carries the title of Chief of Staff, USAF.
You had to bring this up and get RM all worked up....he is once again off on his rant about DISTINCTIVE uniforms, and being the CIVIL Air Patrol.
RM , why don't you please join the Red Cross or Scouts, or some group that has no connection with the military so that you can avoid being around anyone with an interest in the military.
Yes we have all heard how you are real military and want everyone to know those who didn't serve are not to be mistaken for those who did . It gets old, we know you don't like us as the AF Aux, so...........
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PMPersonally, I don't see why CAP members can't have a beard with ANY authorized uniform, as long as it is "distinctive" enough. >:D Perhaps the AF is being too harsh with grooming and weight standards.
It's the Air Force's uniform, they can do want they want with it, they don't care what we think, and will set standards as they see fit. I wonder why you even care, considering this:
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PMFrankly I don't worry about this since I wear the Blue BDU's, golf shirts, and white/grey's because I am in the "Civil Air Patrol" and like as much distinctiveness as possible
Seems to me (and probably many others) like you're more interested in posting flame bait instead of finding an organization that's more like what you want. Then again, there are many that joined CAP, find it's not what they want, and waving the same little banner about distinctiveness.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
I would think the AF has greater priorities to deal with than some CAP members quest to wear the the latest, greatest military "wanna be" uniforms.
You certainly must not think much of your fellow CAP members, given that "wannabe" is your favourite title for those who aren't the "golf-shirts-and-grey-pants" zealots that you are.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
Perhaps the AF is being too harsh with grooming and weight standards :-\.
With weight standards, I will agree.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
HOWEVER, I don't think CAP has a strong interest in changing uniforms quickly anyways. Cost consideration for the membership should be of great concern. I think a previous thread discussed CAP's potential access to get new BDU uniforms for free from the USAF. I haven't heard anymore about this, but another 3 to 5 years of BDU use seems reasonable.
The well is going to run dry sooner rather than later on BDU's. I have not seen AF personnel - Active, Guard, or Reserve - wearing BDU's in a LONG time.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
Frankly I don't worry about this since I wear the Blue BDU's, golf shirts, and white/grey's because I am in the "Civil Air Patrol" and like as much distinctiveness as possible ;)
WE KNOW.(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4933947252867924&id=02cc277edabe4d0aa7597e509c526497)
(http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4919992896848639&id=a0cf616790f464814dea05c68f5353fe)
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4554688757432670&id=4a8181de51a073bcd74c4dacee3467b4)
(http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4888519369556831&id=b86795809cf482792c61cc8cdb57294c)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 18, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
(and it's interesting that others in our wing that also are retired 20+ year military career members also aren't wearing AF blue or BDU's).
RM
Interesting to YOU, perhaps.
And it's equally interesting to note that I personally know people in CAP who are 20+ year retired military who
do wear them...among them a 24-year retired Marine and another a 20+ year retired military with Navy and AFRES service.
If you want to see us and have us dressed as flying versions of Johnny Gage from
Emergency! and abolish all of CAP's military connections, then why don't you forward it up the chain instead of calling those who don't agree with you "wannabes?"
Quote from: CyBorg on March 19, 2012, 02:02:08 PM
If you want to see us and have us dressed as flying versions of Johnny Gage from Emergency!
Blasphemy!!!!!Don't be dissin' on Johnny.
Quote from: Slim on March 20, 2012, 06:44:08 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on March 19, 2012, 02:02:08 PM
If you want to see us and have us dressed as flying versions of Johnny Gage from Emergency!
Blasphemy!!!!!
Don't be dissin' on Johnny.
That's Roy's job! >:D
Quote from: PHall on March 20, 2012, 04:10:30 PM
Quote from: Slim on March 20, 2012, 06:44:08 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on March 19, 2012, 02:02:08 PM
If you want to see us and have us dressed as flying versions of Johnny Gage from Emergency!
Blasphemy!!!!!
Don't be dissin' on Johnny.
That's Roy's job! >:D
No, it's Chet Kelly's 8)