So, I know that the fact that the Army is phasing out berets has been discussed in the past. But, I've never seen it discussed whether or not CAP may one day get to wear these. Past history and logic shows that, whatever uniforms are phased out by the military ,will most likely be what we end up eventually wearing. Here is the link to the story about the Army phasing out berets, if you haven't seen it. http://asktop.net/articles/move-out-beret-the-patrol-cap-is-in/ (http://asktop.net/articles/move-out-beret-the-patrol-cap-is-in/) Do any of you see the air force phasing out berets as well? Do you think we may one day all be wearing berets?
Quote from: GTRanger on February 18, 2012, 01:16:21 AM
So, I know that the fact that the Army is phasing out berets has been discussed in the past. But, I've never seen it discussed whether or not CAP may one day get to wear these. Past history and logic shows that, whatever uniforms are phased out by the military ,will most likely be what we end up eventually wearing. Here is the link to the story about the Army phasing out berets, if you haven't seen it. http://asktop.net/articles/move-out-beret-the-patrol-cap-is-in/ (http://asktop.net/articles/move-out-beret-the-patrol-cap-is-in/) Do any of you see the air force phasing out berets as well? Do you think we may one day all be wearing berets?
Berets would look nice with the A's but would be terrible and unpracticle with the BDU's. I say no in general to it all, because I don't feel like having to shave and wear a wet beret just to get it to be form fitting and all of that stuff.
Well, we already know that it's gonna be a long time before we can wear the A's... I personally think it would look pretty stylish. I've seen guys in woodland BDUs wearing berets, cant remember where or why exactly, and it looked pretty cool.
1. The army is NOT phasing out the beret....they are just not wearing them in ACU's...as the primary hat....they are still authorised for wear with the ACU at the commander's discretion.
2. CAP is already authorised to wear berets.....see 39-1 for instructions.
3. I don't know what you mean by "what ever uniform the military phases out is the one we get".....AFAIK we have always followed the lead of the USAF....maybe not right away....but when they transitioned to blues we did too. when they went from OD to BDU we followed, when they changed the service coat so did we.
No...I don't see the USAF elminating berets nor do I see CAP changing its reg anytime soon.
Although CAP is the last organization to be allowed to wear new military uniforms after a phase-in, it has never been the normal procedure to place CAP in a uniform that has been phased out of the military.
Logic is backwards here, CAP will not purposely introduce uniforms or accessories that are being removed from inventories on the scale that the black beret will present.
Nice try, but for a beret may I suggest National Blue Beret!
The AF will not phase out the beret. The Army only phased it out for wear with ACUs and not across the board. That was a bad move on the Army Chief of Staff at the time as a moral booster and stripped the color from the Rangers instead of finding a different color not in use. And in twelve years of service the AF actually added a beret to the mix. And because it looks cool is not a reason to push for one.
Hmm, I was under the impression that NBB academy's berets werent authorized outside of NBB.
Quote from: GTRanger on February 18, 2012, 01:28:45 AM
Well, we already know that it's gonna be a long time before we can wear the A's...
I can't speak for him/her, but I'm fairly sure that Littleguy meant "Class A's" (service dress uniform), not ABU's when he/she said "A's".
Quote from: GTRanger on February 18, 2012, 01:35:00 AM
Hmm, I was under the impression that NBB academy's berets werent authorized outside of NBB.
Search Function is your freind....we just stopped a 10 page discussion on this.
NBB berets are authorised by the NB for wear outside of the even....see Knowledge Base for details....and check with your commander.
Also wing commanders can authorised the beret IAW 39-1 for special wear.....again check with your commander.
im merely trying to start a conversation about whether or not berets may one day become an option to cap members. not trying to start a debate over capm 39-1 or NBB :)
Mentioning the beret in any context will usually start a debate.
IMHO, it is highly unlikely that CAP will EVER get to wear berets for general use. The blue things from NBB cause enough controversy, that we don't need an additional source. It is an ugly and impractical hat for what CAP does, and I see no place for it.
That said -
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
No.
And on a personal note, I prefer a flight cap over a beret any time of the day.
Quote from: spacecommand on February 18, 2012, 02:22:41 AM
No.
And on a personal note, I prefer a flight cap over a beret any time of the day.
it does seem like flight caps are more suited towards the AF/CAP goals, in the fact that it is more practical to our cause. Me personally being from a family full of high ranking army NCOs, I tend to think in somewhat the same manner as them, call it "hooah" if you will. I personally think the beret should be used in the CAP, but as an award, not just for NBB. And if it will only remain a NBB thing, I am of the opinion that members should be allowed to wear it freely outside of the event. I have not seen anything in CAPM 39-1 about berets, and I personally own a copy of it, and am going through it right now. Does anyone have a link pertaining to the current wear of berets in CAP? And please, no more " the search feature is your friend" stuff. All I can find is a bunch of pages of debating about berets.
And the boat sinks a little deeper.
Berets are in 39-1...and the boast that "you own a copy" only says that your attention to detail is a little off.
Second reason you are sinking.....
Good thing you are from an Army Family and like army things.....CAP is CAP.....it the USAF auxillary....not the ARMY aux. So I appreciate that you like the beret...I do too.....you are barking up the wrong tree with that justification.
Have you searched the CAP pubs site? You are looking for CAPM 39-1 and the ICLs.
Also...if you read some of those beret debates you would find that the rules for the NBB wear are found on Knowledge Base.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 18, 2012, 02:57:53 AM
And the boat sinks a little deeper.
Berets are in 39-1...and the boast that "you own a copy" only says that your attention to detail is a little off.
Second reason you are sinking.....
Good thing you are from an Army Family and like army things.....CAP is CAP.....it the USAF auxillary....not the ARMY aux. So I appreciate that you like the beret...I do too.....you are barking up the wrong tree with that justification.
Have you searched the CAP pubs site? You are looking for CAPM 39-1 and the ICLs.
Also...if you read some of those beret debates you would find that the rules for the NBB wear are found on Knowledge Base.
1. Thanks - editted so there is less chance of a misinterpretation.
As I have said before, I don't understand the attitude that the U.S. military has toward the beret.
To us it's either something to be avoided or a mark of distinction, earned by being a special sort of troop.
In other nations, it's just a form of headgear, often issued as soon as you get the rest of your kit issued, and it's just what you wear, whether with a service dress uniform or a field uniform...no matter if you're a new recruit:
(http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/images/joining-enroler/02-joiningup_eligibility.jpg)
(Canadian Army recruits)
or a high-ranking officer:
(http://www.deutschesheer.de/resource/resource/MzEzNTM4MmUzMzMyMmUzMTM1MzMyZTM2MzEzMDMwMzAzMDMwMzAzMDY3Nzg2YTMwMzA2ODM5NjcyMDIwMjAyMDIw/image_popup.jpg)
(German Army Brigadier Generals)
I just don't understand what our simultaneous reverence for/aversion to a simple item of headgear is all about.
Again, having said that, I think that a grey-blue beret would look good with (and add MUCH-needed colour to) the G/W combo:
(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1635918153740&id=517472a05748ef738bb5a967d74e6e9a)
...and if worn without insignia, it is civilian, and thus would very likely not violate 39-1.
Will it ever be allowed with the AF-type uniform? I highly doubt it...though it would certainly be distinc****.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 18, 2012, 03:44:00 AM
As I have said before, I don't understand the attitude that the U.S. military has toward the beret.
To us it's either something to be avoided or a mark of distinction, earned by being a special sort of troop.
Now I might have some details incorrect, which some of you more seasoned (read: older) gentlemen can fill in ;D but...
IIRC the beret has "special" or "elite" connotations in the US military because it was first worn (in the US military) by elite units during WWII, who borrowed it from the Europeans.
So.... the US military's attitude to the beret is simply based on "the way it was" and/or "tradition". Personally I like the idea of having the beret only be an "elite unit" type thing. Reminds me of John Wayne in "The Green Berets".
edited for clarity
Okay...well let's define elite.
Airborn are pretty elite....not everyone volunteers and passes the jump school....but they are not really all that elite.
Rangers are pretty tought....but not really all that tough when compared to SF guys.
SF guys are tough but even withing the SOC community they are not considered the baddest of the badd.
On the USAF side.
Cops are a default career field.....if you wash out of just about everything else you can always be a cop (sorry to all you USAF SF guys out there....I know you work hard and do a lot of stuff....but let's be honest here....you guys have more than your fair share of rocks.)
JTACS are pretty cool......but are not really all that elite.
Weather Jumper......I actually know a few of them....pretty tough....but it is basically weather school and jump school.
Combat Control......JTACS on steroids
PJ......90% drop out rate during the first 8 weeks.....and that is just the selection process!
So....bottom line is that the idea that berets were only for elite forces....is and always has been false. It is just bling for different force to build esprit de corps and increase their unit effectivness.
Besides, what then- if they switched the hats, would it be called NBFC instead of NBB?
If they ever 'mandated' (changed) to it, that would be the day I get a service cap instead. ... and I hate those things.
I prefer a hat that will keep the sun out of my eyes and that I can put on with one hand.
I do take some offense to the notion that USAF washouts end up in SF, but I'll forgive you. I thought washouts ended up in transportation or supply. I personally knew 2 SF guys that got in trouble and were in VERY short order transferred into supply.
BTW, the beret in CAP is a sore subject with me because I worked hard in the USAF to earn it and keep it, then (in my personal experience) a couple of spoiled, arrogant kids comes back from NBB and shove it everyone's face like they're God's gift to CAP.
On that note, when I was AD, almost all cops wore a squadron ball cap except while performing duties requiring blue uniform combinations.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on February 18, 2012, 12:30:28 PMOn that note, when I was AD, almost all cops wore a squadron ball cap except while performing duties requiring blue uniform combinations.
You had a pretty liberal Squadron/Base Commander then. Because that was not the norm.
This is based on seeing lots of cops at lots of bases. I was a C-141 FE and we traveled a lot!
From what I know, a good chunk of people who go in open general end up in SF. That's not to denigrate SF or people who go in open general. Of course, with the ANG and AFRES it's different since you're being hired to fill a specific position.
My unit meets on an ANG installation. Most of the SF's I see are wearing their beret, including with ACU's.
FlyTiger77: You must mean the service cap, because you can't really put the flight cap on with one hand and it sure doesn't keep the sun out of your eyes.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 18, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
FlyTiger77: You must mean the service cap, because you can't really put the flight cap on with one hand and it sure doesn't keep the sun out of your eyes.
Actually, I am an Army guy and I prefer the patrol cap. No, I am not a big fan of the flight/garrison cap, either (but it does fit nicely in your pocket).
Quote from: CyBorg on February 18, 2012, 08:26:13 AM
Quote from: Thrashed on February 18, 2012, 06:28:25 AM
Beret = Gay
I'll never wear one.
Slurs like that are uncalled for.
Time to lock?
Oh good grief PC police....lighten up.
Anyway, I was in the Army Res from 1997-2000. Before everyone in the Army wore berets. I was with an infantry training unit and part of OPFOR (remember the guys who used to dress like russians?) We wore black berets and were authorized to wear our "russian" uniforms while at Drill. Everyone hated the berets. When the Army switched to them, in the early days many soldiers actually refused to wear them. To this day most don't like them. Shinseki wasn't one of the most respected Chiefs the Army has had. His idea that a hat makes you feel "elite" conveyed to us (the troops) that he thought of us as kids who needed a piece of candy to motivate us. Its is still something I havnt figured out. I never wore mine outside of my OPFOR duds. Of course, I also had my Marine Eagle Globe and Anchor stamp on my cammie pocket in plain sight too the whole time I was in >:D
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 18, 2012, 05:27:38 PM
Anyway, I was in the Army Res from 1997-2000. Before everyone in the Army wore berets. I was with an infantry training unit and part of OPFOR (remember the guys who used to dress like russians?) We wore black berets and were authorized to wear our "russian" uniforms while at Drill. Everyone hated the berets.
Roger that. OPFOR name tags! How cool was that.
To the OP, no on berets in the CAP.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 18, 2012, 03:44:00 AM
Again, having said that, I think that a grey-blue beret would look good with (and add MUCH-needed colour to) the G/W combo:
(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1635918153740&id=517472a05748ef738bb5a967d74e6e9a)
...and if worn without insignia, it is civilian, and thus would very likely not violate 39-1.
Now that will go great with my aviator shirt and grey slacks. :P
Quote from: Private Investigator on February 18, 2012, 07:26:11 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 18, 2012, 05:27:38 PM
Anyway, I was in the Army Res from 1997-2000. Before everyone in the Army wore berets. I was with an infantry training unit and part of OPFOR (remember the guys who used to dress like russians?) We wore black berets and were authorized to wear our "russian" uniforms while at Drill. Everyone hated the berets.
Roger that. OPFOR name tags! How cool was that.
To the OP, no on berets in the CAP.
I forgot, the big red star and the russian infantry crest touched it off nicely:)
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
These are my views on the berets:
In the military, they are more commonly worn by specially selected units. The biggest exception is USAF Security Forces. Security Forces tends to have many First Term Airmen and is one of the larger career fields for enlisted. (Especially on our missile bases.) Among them, there are those who wear the beret properly, proudly and do well. There are also quite a few who wear their beret in a sloppy manner, with it faded, sweat-stained, and just look bad.
In CAP:
I went to NBB in 2000 and 2001. I earned the beret in that program, and at the time there was quiet a bit of confusion as to whether to wear it or not. Under the direction of my commander I did not wear it. When I moved to college it was authorized but I wound up choosing not to wear it. The main issue was the Mx involved and the fact it was not comfortable during summer (too hot) or winter (too cold.)
It sat in my dresser for years and eventually I became a commander of my own unit. I thought about it, and decided not to allow it during our activities. The reason for this was uniformity. If folks were really proud of their accomplishment of NBB (and it isn't easy, nor is it anything like military training) they have a patch they could wear.
We had a cadet officer that attended NBB, he asked if he could wear the beret when he came back. I said no. He did it anyway, and things started going badly from there. From the time he was talking about how NBB was the 'hardest activity in CAP' and the 'best' one. He and I had a little chat about that kind of attitude. The key was, he had this attitude about other things already. NBB wasn't the issue, his behavior was the issue and I fully believe he would have acted that way no matter what NCSA he had gone to.
Most of my cadets that attend NCSAs come back, had a great time, worked hard, share their experiences, and don't cop an attitude. They know it isn't tolerated. There are those that go to an activity (doesn't matter which one) and come back with a bad attitude. It isn't the activity, it's the cadet, for all the activities.
Overall View:
The beret itself is very high-MX to get set-up, it has to fit properly, and does not age well. (Not everyone wears the correct size, and it winds up waaay too small and sitting far above where it is supposed to or at very strange angles.)
It is more expensive than a flight cap.
It is harder to carry around than a flight cap.
It provides no sun protection, and in a warm environment it retains a lot of heat. You're essentially wearing a wool watch cap on your head. In the winter, it doesn't protect both ears like an actual watch cap.
In the end they are impractical, expensive, hot, high-MX hats. And since not everyone wears one, they become non-uniform in a standard CAP squadron setting.
(Amusingly enough, for these very reasons, when Kennedy-administration authorized their wear for Army SF during Vietnam...they stopped wearing them in the field. This continues to today. Good luck finding guys going on an operational mission and doing all the stuff they do wearing one.)
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on February 19, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
These are my views on the berets:
In the military, they are more commonly worn by specially selected units. The biggest exception is USAF Security Forces.
And the entire US ARMY!
I would disagree with it being hi mx. Provided the time is taken when a beret is first received it is hardly hi mx afterwards. I have worn it for 12 years both in the heat and cold and when it gets super cokd and you elect to not put a watch cap on thats your perogative, but don't gripe its cold. Like any uniform item over tine it will fade and become unservicible. And the appearance issues you pointed out is one not caring and lack of leadership failing to correct it. Not the headgear itself. And for USAF SF there is a history and lineage behind it not simply because of the AFSC.
The berets look stupid. It looks like a deflated pancake sewn to headband. It surely is one ugly way of looking different. They are extremely unpractical, too. I have yet to see someone whip out a beret from their BDU cargo pocket or pull it out from being neatly tucked under their belt on the Blues.
As previously stated, cadets with attitudes will act with attitude, no matter what event. The event may be a catalyst for such attitudes to become noticable, but I doubt people who go to NBB develop any attitude except for one with more confidence and pride.
If someone is truely proud of their experience and wants to show his/her pride, they will do so through positive behavior.
Quote from: spacecommand on February 18, 2012, 02:22:41 AM
No.
And on a personal note, I prefer a flight cap over a beret any time of the day.
+1
I hated that thing from the time we started wearing it to the time I retired in '88
Quote from: lordmonar on February 18, 2012, 04:03:09 AM
Okay...well let's define elite.
Airborn are pretty elite....not everyone volunteers and passes the jump school....but they are not really all that elite. Rangers are pretty tought....but not really all that tough when compared to SF guys.
SF guys are tough but even withing the SOC community they are not considered the baddest of the badd.
For the record, I hate the word "elite". It conjures up images of poorly written Mack Bolan novels. Now, as far as the above, I have to say, unless one has been there and done it, and has a full understanding of all that is involved with any of the above communities, one probably should not be making uninformed comments that tend to minimize and insult some of the finest, most highly trained soldiers in the world. Yes, I've worked around all 3 of the above (both in the Army and AF), and I hold them in the highest regard.
On the USAF side.
Cops are a default career field.....if you wash out of just about everything else you can always be a cop (sorry to all you USAF SF guys out there....I know you work hard and do a lot of stuff....but let's be honest here....you guys have more than your fair share of rocks.)
JTACS are pretty cool......but are not really all that elite.
Weather Jumper......I actually know a few of them....pretty tough....but it is basically weather school and jump school.
Combat Control......JTACS on steroids
PJ......90% drop out rate during the first 8 weeks.....and that is just the selection process!
So....bottom line is that the idea that berets were only for elite forces....is and always has been false. It is just bling for different force to build esprit de corps and increase their unit effectivness.
Security Forces is not a "default " career field. Ignorant and inflammatory remarks such as this only fuel poor morale and service in-fighting. Some of the most dedicated and professional Airmen I've had the pleasure to serve beside were SF. EVERY career field has it's slugs and stars.
TACPs are pretty squared away. I've known a few, and, the TACP assigned to US Army Special Forces that I bumped into in A-stan in '01 was no slouch.
Special Operations Weather. I know one. Not a slacker field, either.
I dare you to tell a Combat Controller that he is just a JTAC on steroids. Again, I've worked with these guys, and they are, also, not a slacker field.
PJs. Obviously, you are a PJ fanboy. Yes, they are the bees knees.
And now the AF, in it's infinite wisdom, has added a pewter-greenish beret for Survival Instructors.
Bottom line? The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat. It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. Don't covet the beret. Once that particular beast is hung around your neck, you will regret it. It's simply a silly hat.
Quote from: SPD6696 on February 25, 2012, 02:26:19 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 18, 2012, 04:03:09 AM
Okay...well let's define elite.
Airborn are pretty elite....not everyone volunteers and passes the jump school....but they are not really all that elite. Rangers are pretty tought....but not really all that tough when compared to SF guys.
SF guys are tough but even withing the SOC community they are not considered the baddest of the badd.
For the record, I hate the word "elite". It conjures up images of poorly written Mack Bolan novels. Now, as far as the above, I have to say, unless one has been there and done it, and has a full understanding of all that is involved with any of the above communities, one probably should not be making uninformed comments that tend to minimize and insult some of the finest, most highly trained soldiers in the world. Yes, I've worked around all 3 of the above (both in the Army and AF), and I hold them in the highest regard.
On the USAF side.
Cops are a default career field.....if you wash out of just about everything else you can always be a cop (sorry to all you USAF SF guys out there....I know you work hard and do a lot of stuff....but let's be honest here....you guys have more than your fair share of rocks.)
JTACS are pretty cool......but are not really all that elite.
Weather Jumper......I actually know a few of them....pretty tough....but it is basically weather school and jump school.
Combat Control......JTACS on steroids
PJ......90% drop out rate during the first 8 weeks.....and that is just the selection process!
So....bottom line is that the idea that berets were only for elite forces....is and always has been false. It is just bling for different force to build esprit de corps and increase their unit effectivness.
Security Forces is not a "default " career field. Ignorant and inflammatory remarks such as this only fuel poor morale and service in-fighting. Some of the most dedicated and professional Airmen I've had the pleasure to serve beside were SF. EVERY career field has it's slugs and stars.
TACPs are pretty squared away. I've known a few, and, the TACP assigned to US Army Special Forces that I bumped into in A-stan in '01 was no slouch.
Special Operations Weather. I know one. Not a slacker field, either.
I dare you to tell a Combat Controller that he is just a JTAC on steroids. Again, I've worked with these guys, and they are, also, not a slacker field.
PJs. Obviously, you are a PJ fanboy. Yes, they are the bees knees.
And now the AF, in it's infinite wisdom, has added a pewter-greenish beret for Survival Instructors.
Bottom line? The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat. It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. Don't covet the beret. Once that particular beast is hung around your neck, you will regret it. It's simply a silly hat.
Try telling the last line to a green beret and see where it gets you lol
A green beret is a silly hat. The man is a Special Forces Soldier.
Quote from: GTRanger on February 25, 2012, 03:06:51 AM
Quote from: SPD6696 on February 25, 2012, 02:26:19 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 18, 2012, 04:03:09 AM
Okay...well let's define elite.
Airborn are pretty elite....not everyone volunteers and passes the jump school....but they are not really all that elite. Rangers are pretty tought....but not really all that tough when compared to SF guys.
SF guys are tough but even withing the SOC community they are not considered the baddest of the badd.
For the record, I hate the word "elite". It conjures up images of poorly written Mack Bolan novels. Now, as far as the above, I have to say, unless one has been there and done it, and has a full understanding of all that is involved with any of the above communities, one probably should not be making uninformed comments that tend to minimize and insult some of the finest, most highly trained soldiers in the world. Yes, I've worked around all 3 of the above (both in the Army and AF), and I hold them in the highest regard.
On the USAF side.
Cops are a default career field.....if you wash out of just about everything else you can always be a cop (sorry to all you USAF SF guys out there....I know you work hard and do a lot of stuff....but let's be honest here....you guys have more than your fair share of rocks.)
JTACS are pretty cool......but are not really all that elite.
Weather Jumper......I actually know a few of them....pretty tough....but it is basically weather school and jump school.
Combat Control......JTACS on steroids
PJ......90% drop out rate during the first 8 weeks.....and that is just the selection process!
So....bottom line is that the idea that berets were only for elite forces....is and always has been false. It is just bling for different force to build esprit de corps and increase their unit effectivness.
Security Forces is not a "default " career field. Ignorant and inflammatory remarks such as this only fuel poor morale and service in-fighting. Some of the most dedicated and professional Airmen I've had the pleasure to serve beside were SF. EVERY career field has it's slugs and stars.
TACPs are pretty squared away. I've known a few, and, the TACP assigned to US Army Special Forces that I bumped into in A-stan in '01 was no slouch.
Special Operations Weather. I know one. Not a slacker field, either.
I dare you to tell a Combat Controller that he is just a JTAC on steroids. Again, I've worked with these guys, and they are, also, not a slacker field.
PJs. Obviously, you are a PJ fanboy. Yes, they are the bees knees.
And now the AF, in it's infinite wisdom, has added a pewter-greenish beret for Survival Instructors.
Bottom line? The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat. It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. Don't covet the beret. Once that particular beast is hung around your neck, you will regret it. It's simply a silly hat.
Try telling the last line to a green beret and see where it gets you lol
You'll either get reducated or they'll buy you a round for having a pair of brass ones.
Quote from: SPD6696 on February 25, 2012, 02:26:19 AMSecurity Forces is not a "default " career field. Ignorant and inflammatory remarks such as this only fuel poor morale and service in-fighting. Some of the most dedicated and professional Airmen I've had the pleasure to serve beside were SF. EVERY career field has it's slugs and stars.
Dude, if you can get in the Air Force, you can be a cop. So lose the 'tude.
Oh, and the biggest collection of criminals on base is usually the Cop Squadron.
Don't believe me? Just check and see which squadron hands out the most Article 15's.
And before you get all indignant, I am a Retired MSgt with 31-1/2 years of service. So I
might know a little bit of which I speak.
Thats funny. I was talking to my little bro. There were 4 guys who academically dropped from crew chief school. He said all four went to security forces :). My good friend is a CMSgt in security forces says himself that its the default career field. Its what the grunts are to the Army and Marines were his words. However that doesnt mean the troops in it are sub standard. Generally speaking if you drop from any of the special ops parts of the AF you usually end up in SF if your a first term enlistee.
Quote from: PHall on February 25, 2012, 04:49:02 AM
Oh, and the biggest collection of criminals on base is usually the Cop Squadron.
Don't believe me? Just check and see which squadron hands out the most Article 15's.
To be fair, a lot of those Article 15s would be LOCs or LORs in other units. I've known cops that got Article 15s for some pretty stupid stuff (knew people and how to ask to verify the story too, and just about every CAP unit on every base that I was at had at least one cop), because "
Security Police are held to a higher standard!" Pure numbers don't tell the whole story.
To mention the other side, I've heard of a whole flight of cops getting canned for drug use. Jacked up, occasionally there are some big doozies, but that kind of thing is not indicative of
all cops.
I think that overall when it comes to equivalent screwups, cop units are generally about equal. The Article 15 for everything makes it sound worse than it is. SP commanders are well known for handing them out when another commander would simply direct the supervisor to give an LOC or LOR.
I've seen many people end up as cooks or MWR when they flunked out of something else. A lot of it depends on what the management (chain of command)
thinks is the easiest school at that particular training base. But, some people can get shifted over to a different field and do well there. It depends on the aptitude of the person. And I've seen plenty of people crosstrain out of the Security Police field as well.
I don't know......Like PHall said...in my 22 years in the service....if you wanted to find a criminal you went to the Cop's dorm.
And yes SF squadrons are imfamous for handing our form letter LOC's and Art 15's for what other squadrons would rate you a stern talking to.
But bottom line is that it is not that hard to get into the AFSC, it is not that hard to graduate from the Tech School.
This does not mean that they are all slugs or that they are not professional, dedicated and skilled.......it just means that they NOT elite as it is defined in the dictionary.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 25, 2012, 03:25:49 PM
This does not mean that they are all slugs or that they are not professional, dedicated and skilled......
Exactly.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 25, 2012, 03:25:49 PMit just means that they NOT elite as it is defined in the dictionary.
I will agree with that statement, but that was not what I was specifically addressing.
As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that. Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard. Cops eat their own plain and simple. Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field.
If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs. Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 25, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that. Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard. Cops eat their own plain and simple. Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field.
If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs. Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.
A1A1X0C = Flight Engineer (Performance Qualified) Formal school takes 6 months. Takes another 9 to 12 months to become fully qualified.
Initial Qualification checkride takes 3 to 5 days (depending on how you're doing). Annual checkride is usually 2 days of flying plus a multiple hour oral exam.
Plus you get to be a pin cushion for the shot clinic and you get to play "you bet your career" every year with the Flight Surgeon when you get your physical.
And there are very few Article 15's, LOC's and LOR's in this career field. Just sayin'
Quote from: PHall on February 25, 2012, 06:18:56 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 25, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that. Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard. Cops eat their own plain and simple. Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field.
If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs. Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.
A1A1X0C = Flight Engineer (Performance Qualified) Formal school takes 6 months. Takes another 9 to 12 months to become fully qualified.
Initial Qualification checkride takes 3 to 5 days (depending on how you're doing). Annual checkride is usually 2 days of flying plus a multiple hour oral exam.
Plus you get to be a pin cushion for the shot clinic and you get to play "you bet your career" every year with the Flight Surgeon when you get your physical.
And there are very few Article 15's, LOC's and LOR's in this career field. Just sayin'
PRP Missle personnel, bet your career on with anything. To slam the SF for hold their members to a higher standard of discipline is uncalled for.
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 25, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that. Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard. Cops eat their own plain and simple. Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field.
If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs. Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.
13SXC - Missile Operations. Formal school takes 7 months, additional 2-3 months for initial qualification. 3 Academic monthly tests + simulator training. No notice evals possible 9/12 months. Minimum passing score on all tests 90%, Minimum generally acceptable 95%+, Expectation 100% on all exams. Held responsible for many mistakes made in their flight area by MX, or SF. Single mistake can cause them to be removed from crew duty with no recourse or appeal process.
Edit: I didn't bring up PRP because there are SF on PRP.
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 25, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that. Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard. Cops eat their own plain and simple. Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field.
If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs. Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.
3P0X1 only requires an ASVAB General Score of 33.
The only two AFSC with a lower lower General Score are Regional and Premier Bands.
As for being held to a higher standard? I can agree with you on that at one level. You certainly get burned harder for lower enfractions. And I will agree that following SF the Med guys are probably next on my list of likely criminals.
Again....this is not a slam against Cops....most of them are hard working, dedicated professionals....as are most everyone in the USAF. And everyone thinks aircrew are a bunch of prima donnas......including the aircrew! :)
My point is.....that USAF Cops are not really elite. But they all sport berets. Even those cops doing secuirty management duties in non SF squadrons wear them. So the argument that berets=elite is a non-starter in both the USAF and the Army.
In my 12 years as a cop the bad apples amongst were few and far in between. Did it happen yes, but as with everything they are rampant depending on location.
"Dude, if you can get in the Air Force, you can be a cop. So lose the 'tude.
Oh, and the biggest collection of criminals on base is usually the Cop Squadron.
Don't believe me? Just check and see which squadron hands out the most Article 15's.
And before you get all indignant, I am a Retired MSgt with 31-1/2 years of service. So I might know a little bit of which I speak."
One, my name is not "dude". Two, I don't have a "tude". Three, you make a general statement, unsupported by facts, denigrating an entire career field. You will note that I made no denigrating remarks about any other career fields that I know for a fact have a large amount of miscreants. I won't disrespect an entire career field, or those hard working, honorable troops in it, by making a biased and ignorant statement such as yours.
I don't have 31 years, I retired with 23, and with service in 3 branches. I also WAS in Security Forces (I don't know if you were, or not). So, like you claim, I too know a little of which I speak.
lordmonar, I agree, Security Forces certainly isn't "elite". A hat does not make one "elite". I would argue that professionalism, training, and conduct make one "elite". And, by that standard, I have known many servicemembers that are not cool guys that I would consider "elite". From what I have seen of my son's CAP squadron, and the exemplary manner in which they run the show, there are many there that are "elite".
To everyone else, I apologize that this turned into a weenie measuring contest. It's unprofessional, but, sometimes, corrections need to be made. I don't post much, I tend to read more here. When I do post, I try to contribute positively.
IMVHO...
I think Security Forces (and many other AFSC's) are environment behavior based.
Meaning, if a cop gets stationed at, lets say, Minot or Whiteman or one of the other major PRP bases, they are held to a much higher standard than say the "party" (training) bases like Lackland or Keesler.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 25, 2012, 08:03:57 PM
IMVHO...
I think Security Forces (and many other AFSC's) are environment behavior based.
Meaning, if a cop gets stationed at, lets say, Minot or Whiteman or one of the other major PRP bases, they are held to a much higher standard than say the "party" (training) bases like Lackland or Keesler.
Even at the party bases.....they still hammer them pretty hard.
In the Comm squadron....if you are 5 minutes late in the AM....it's "did you bring the donuts" and "try to be here on time tommorrow". In the SF squadron....if you are late for guard mount.....they have a preprinted LOC you sign. Get enough of them and then you get an LOR.
The nature of the job is that they just don't tolerate a lot of what other squadrons do on a daily basis.
On the other hand.....they also don't hold those things against you as much as they do in other AFSC. Get an Art 15 as a Comm guy and you probably will never see SMSgt. But I know lots of SF CMSgts who have 1,2, even three Art 15's in their jacket. Because they know how easy it is get one in their job.
Has this gone from a discussion on berets to a beat down on SF's, MP's and what is the best AFSC/MOS/NEC? If so, it's time to close.
Agreed, sir.
Back on topic: We may get berets. We may also get flying ponies.
If we do get berets, what color would they be?
Or different colors for positions?
Red=ES
green=SM
Blue=Cadet
Red w/racing stripes=pilots >:D 8)
Would we wear them with BDUs or blues?
We already have berets. See 39-1
If you are talking about everybody in CAP wearing them.....I say NO!
For special units or special activities or special awards maybe....but not for everyone.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 03:27:01 AM
If we do get berets, what color would they be?
Or different colors for positions?
Red=ES
green=SM
Blue=Cadet
Red w/racing stripes=pilots
CAP would have to get its own special shade for the entire organization, something like "burnt sienna" "mountain meadow" or one of the other weird Crayola color names ;D
Quote from: titanII on February 26, 2012, 04:08:58 AM
CAP would have to get its own special shade for the entire organization, something like "burnt sienna" "mountain meadow" or one of the other weird Crayola color names ;D
At least it couldn't be GREY, since that's already taken (AF Combat Weather)!
I think a beret could be MUCH more likely with the G/W than the AF type uniform.
1. The AF has units who wear berets, discussed here at great length, and would be unlikely to allow CAP that "privilege."
2. Some dim bulb would invoke the "low-light-at-a-distance" canard.
3. It wouldn't take AF approval to make such a change to a CAP-only uniform.
4. The AF could probably care less about such a change, since it doesn't affect their uniform, as long as we don't use one of their colours (which is why I suggested RAF blue-grey).
5. Again, to stress this, it would be
optional. Say it again, with feeling: O-P-T-I-O-N-A-L!
It could most likely be worn now with the G/W, anyway. As long as insignia is off it, it's civilian headgear. If it were approved for "official" use, it could have the CAP MAJCOM-type shield.
On other matters...my MTI had been SP (what they were called back in the day) and how he got to be an MTI I will never know. All I really learnt from him is various permutations of the F-bomb...he couldn't construct a sentence without it.
I didn't know that SF squadrons were so free with LOC's and Art. 15's...back in the late '50s my dad got an Art. 15 (Army) and it kept him from getting E-5 (Specialist 5)!
Bottom line? The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat. It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. Really? Does that make the British Army/Royal Marines, German Bundeswehr, Canadian Army, French Army, Italian Army or even the Russian SPETZNAZ "latrine hole forces?"
Quote from: CyBorg on February 26, 2012, 04:37:50 AM
Bottom line? The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat. It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries.
Really? Does that make the British Army/Royal Marines, German Bundeswehr, Canadian Army, French Army, Italian Army or even the Russian SPETZNAZ "latrine hole forces?"
I don't think that he was implying that only "latrine hole forces" wear berets, Cyborg. I think he was just pointing out the fact that the beret is worn by the full spectrum of forces around the world, from the most elite Green Beret or Spetsnaz, to the US or British Army soldier, right down to the "latrine-hole forces".
Quote from: lordmonar on February 26, 2012, 04:07:19 AM
We already have berets. See 39-1
If you are talking about everybody in CAP wearing them.....I say NO!
For special units or special activities or special awards maybe....but not for everyone.
I know we do. NBB.
I was just coming up with on-topic fodder.
I was a PRP Marine Security Forces NCO.....so screw all you nasty air-swine and your french hat! Suuuuuuuueeeeeeeeeeyyyy!
I worked some with AF SF last time over. The Defender 6 was an AF Academy Grad and as smart as they come. I would work with him any time. Yes we had some younger Airmen who got into some trouble but no more than any infantry Bubba or average Marine >:D As for the beret, the only thing it's used for now is the Army ASU. Patrol Cap for daily wear is way more practical. One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret. Just my. .02
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
I worked some with AF SF last time over. The Defender 6 was an AF Academy Grad and as smart as they come. I would work with him any time. Yes we had some younger Airmen who got into some trouble but no more than any infantry Bubba or average Marine >:D As for the beret, the only thing it's used for now is the Army ASU. Patrol Cap for daily wear is way more practical. One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret. Just my. .02
Hey....hold one one minute dude.....I resemble that remark! >:D
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
I worked some with AF SF last time over. The Defender 6 was an AF Academy Grad and as smart as they come. I would work with him any time. Yes we had some younger Airmen who got into some trouble but no more than any infantry Bubba or average Marine >:D As for the beret, the only thing it's used for now is the Army ASU. Patrol Cap for daily wear is way more practical. One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret. Just my. .02
At least no installation under AP/SP or SF protection ever fell to enemy hands.
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
:o
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate....
All the bases I have been too.....they had contracted it out!
:angel:
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Y'all have totally missed the boat on this beret thing. The ONLY possible color for an organization-wide beret is blaze orange. So simple.
I think someone already beat you to it. The old Challenger program in OR/WA wore a blaze orange beret I believe.
Quote from: PHall on February 26, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Shucks, here they stick the Capt's out at the gate, even an occasional Lt Col or Col...which isn't to say that there aren't junior enlisted Airmen there.
Why are we argueing about SF?
Quote from: PA Guy on February 26, 2012, 10:25:33 PM
I think someone already beat you to it. The old Challenger program in OR/WA wore a blaze orange beret I believe.
Canadian Forces SARTECHs were probably the first.
Quote from: Littleguy on February 27, 2012, 12:27:38 AM
Why are we argueing about SF?
We have to argue about something. And with that, let the countdown to lock begin.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 26, 2012, 09:41:20 PM
Y'all have totally missed the boat on this beret thing. The ONLY possible color for an organization-wide beret is blaze orange. So simple.
Only if it's ANSI II compliant...
>:D
Quote from: titanII on February 27, 2012, 01:52:25 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 26, 2012, 09:41:20 PM
Y'all have totally missed the boat on this beret thing. The ONLY possible color for an organization-wide beret is blaze orange. So simple.
Only if it's ANSI II compliant...
>:D
Congratz TSgt. :D
Quote from: SarDragon on February 26, 2012, 09:41:20 PMY'all have totally missed the boat on this beret thing. The ONLY possible color for an organization-wide beret is blaze orange. So simple.
..and it will match the CAWG GT uniform. Yay.
Gag me.
My opinion on fantasy uniforms.
I knew a guy, in my old Army Infantry Company. He was into LARPing, for SciFi. He had a completely made up uniform for his LARPing. Looked like a Star Trek Mexican General with a Beret.
My point? If you want to wear a bunch of flashy, cool guy stuff, but can't, or won't join the appropriate cool guy organization, buy it and make it up, and do it. In the appropriate environment. LARP. Airsoft. MilSim. Whatever. Until then, conform to the uniform regulations of the organization you are a part of, and quit trying to find ways to bend or flex or break the rules.
Quote from: SPD6696 on February 27, 2012, 03:53:33 AM
and quit trying to find ways to bend or flex or break the rules.
HA, man I don't know what military you served in, but the one I served in...EVERYONE tried to bend/flex/break the "rules" as much as they could. Heck, I am pretty sure that's the norm in almost every organization. Its just learning to walk that line of what you can do and what you cant do and get away with.
What's that old saying.... "You aint tryin if you aint cheatin"...
Quote from: PHall on February 26, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Ever been to Davis Monthan? Was there 2 months ago. The contracted civilian security working the gate was a freaking joke. Its was literally a bunch of old ladies with Beretta M-9s and uniforms that were about 3 sizes to large. The military guards on all the inner gates werent even armed.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 27, 2012, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: PHall on February 26, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Ever been to Davis Monthan? Was there 2 months ago. The contracted civilian security working the gate was a freaking joke. Its was literally a bunch of old ladies with Beretta M-9s and uniforms that were about 3 sizes to large. The military guards on all the inner gates werent even armed.
No, but one wing event we had to sit at the gate for 45 minutes before a MP showed up. The contractors wouldn't let CAP vans in.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 27, 2012, 04:06:34 AM
Quote from: SPD6696 on February 27, 2012, 03:53:33 AM
and quit trying to find ways to bend or flex or break the rules.
HA, man I don't know what military you served in, but the one I served in...EVERYONE tried to bend/flex/break the "rules" as much as they could. Heck, I am pretty sure that's the norm in almost every organization. Its just learning to walk that line of what you can do and what you cant do and get away with.
What's that old saying.... "You aint tryin if you aint cheatin"...
One with strong NCOs, at least when I was a boot. Example: Back in the day, the Marine Corps had a zero to 3" reg on hair cuts. OK. That's the reg. However, if my TL, or SL, or PSG, or Company Gunny, or 1st Sgt told me to have a high and tight, well, I had a high and tight. Unless I felt like having duty, cleaning, pushups, extra "training", etc. Maybe it's about discipline, rather than shamming.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 27, 2012, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: PHall on February 26, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Ever been to Davis Monthan? Was there 2 months ago. The contracted civilian security working the gate was a freaking joke. Its was literally a bunch of old ladies with Beretta M-9s and uniforms that were about 3 sizes to large. The military guards on all the inner gates werent even armed.
It seems that the Active Duty bases have gone to Contractors for gate duty, probably because of the fact that Active Duty Cops get deployed, a lot!
The cops you see day to day at March are on AGR tours. They made the decision a few years ago that the AGR troops were a better investment then dealing with Billy Joe Bob's Security Company. They have total control over the AGR troops while contractors only have to do what their contract says.
Not saying that all private security folks are bad, but there's enough to give all of them a bad rep.
The ones at DM AFB look liked like the uniformed security Ive seen at the local field worker bars in central CA!
QuoteWell, we already know that it's gonna be a long time before we can wear the A's... I personally think it would look pretty stylish. I've seen guys in woodland BDUs wearing berets, cant remember where or why exactly, and it looked pretty cool.
I earned my Blue Beret from NBB in 2008.. I wear it with my BDUs' to
squadron meetings only. Personally I think it would look horrendous with the dress blues. With the BDUs I think it looks pretty neat.
Thanks,
S.W.
Quote from: ol'fido on February 27, 2012, 12:41:53 AM
Quote from: PA Guy on February 26, 2012, 10:25:33 PM
I think someone already beat you to it. The old Challenger program in OR/WA wore a blaze orange beret I believe.
Canadian Forces SARTECHs were probably the first.
Pathfinder grads wore them back in the day as well.
Quote from: PHall on February 27, 2012, 05:33:10 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 27, 2012, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: PHall on February 26, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 26, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 26, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on February 26, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
One downside I see for AF SF still using berets it is if I'm a terrorist attacking a base my snipers will first target anyone wearing a beret.
So... they will get the front gate e-2 or e-3... then the call for shots fired will go out, and all the cops will put on helmets...
All the bases I've been to (that had a gate) had a TSgt. Or higher on duty...
Though they would likely put helnets on like you said...
Never ever have I seen an e-6 or higher work the gate.... :o
Come by March ARB sometime. They have TSgt's on gate duty all of the time.
Of course they're the shift supervisor covering for SrA or A1C while they go eat, but they're still on gate duty.
Ever been to Davis Monthan? Was there 2 months ago. The contracted civilian security working the gate was a freaking joke. Its was literally a bunch of old ladies with Beretta M-9s and uniforms that were about 3 sizes to large. The military guards on all the inner gates werent even armed.
It seems that the Active Duty bases have gone to Contractors for gate duty, probably because of the fact that Active Duty Cops get deployed, a lot!
The cops you see day to day at March are on AGR tours. They made the decision a few years ago that the AGR troops were a better investment then dealing with Billy Joe Bob's Security Company. They have total control over the AGR troops while contractors only have to do what their contract says.
Not saying that all private security folks are bad, but there's enough to give all of them a bad rep.
One day me and two other Seniors are coming back on base( I won't say which one) and we get chosen for the random bomb/weapons check. Very professional so far from the civilian security guards until they start the actual search. We are standing around the vehicle while they search and the one guy bends over to check under the seat and practically shoves his M9 into my hand. I mean he is so close that I could literally open my hand, wrap it around the grip, and draw the weapon. All that would have been required was to unsnap the retaining strap. The other two Seniors with me were a Illinois State Police officer and a Chief of Police and I will have 20 yrs as a Corrections Officer in September. I looked at them and they looked at me and we all just rolled our eyes. We didn't say anything to the guards but went on our way, but the subject of conversation for several minutes was "What if we weren't the good guys?".
^^Sounds about like some of the less-than-bright bulb CBP personnel I've encountered coming back from Canada. The older ones are usually good and don't pull you in for secondary without a reason, but some of the younger ones have a power trip on.
I've never encountered it going to Canada, but coming back into my own country is a bit ridiculous.
If the civilian contractors hired for security on bases are no better than that... :o
At least they don't wear berets. ;D
I was at the National Board meeting in San Diego in the mid 1990's when the Wing Staff went to Tijauna for dinner. On the way back across the border I heard an Immigration officer asking someone, what is your citizenship? USA!, ok What is the Capital of the United States? New York City. He was allowed to enter the US.
He is 100% correct on his answer of New York City. It was the First Capital of the United States. Where George Washington took the Oath of Office as President.
Berets are permitable, if you have gone to NBB- Blue Beret, an NCSA I'd really love to go to next year; after I have finished encampment this year.
It is an optional uniform item that wing kings can allow for one purpose or another. You might petitio THROUGH YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND of course. INWg allows them for GTMs.
Well CA doesn't allow it, thank God. I wore that hot thing for years. It's hot and doesn't shade your eyes, shows dirt and lint.
I hear that a lot. And I can understand it, but luckily I never had that issue, and I still don't. I guess I am just lucky.
Quote from: BillB on May 28, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
He is 100% correct on his answer of New York City. It was the First Capital of the United States. Where George Washington took the Oath of Office as President.
But it wasn't the capital in 1992, and it wasn't the only question he missed. BTW Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and Annapolis were also capitals of the United States until the district of Columbia was established and the CApital was finally built.
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 29, 2012, 04:02:48 PM
Quote from: BillB on May 28, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
He is 100% correct on his answer of New York City. It was the First Capital of the United States. Where George Washington took the Oath of Office as President.
But it wasn't the capital in 1992, and it wasn't the only question he missed. BTW Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and Annapolis were also capitals of the United States until the district of Columbia was established and the CApital was finally built.
Wow, history classes! I love it!
Quote from: BillB on May 28, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
He is 100% correct on his answer of New York City. It was the First Capital of the United States. Where George Washington took the Oath of Office as President.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States#Former_national_Capitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States#Former_national_Capitals)
Wrong. Philly was.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 29, 2012, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: BillB on May 28, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
He is 100% correct on his answer of New York City. It was the First Capital of the United States. Where George Washington took the Oath of Office as President.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States#Former_national_Capitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States#Former_national_Capitals)
Wrong. Philly was.
Well, you are both right. Philadelphia was the first Capital with the Continental Congress as well as the Articles of Confederation. New York was the first Capital of the United States Congress under the Constitution of the United States.
^^ Maybe but they are all the wrong answer to the question. A real American would answer "How the hell should I know? Why are you asking me these stupid questions?" Only a commie spy would know all that stuff ;)
Wow, we have actually transformed a uniform thread to a history discussion. Some thing is bass-ackward!
And a beret discussion at that! :o